On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:48:17 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

That is why one aims for the corners. Less flex.

We were told that, if we were stuck inside the car (say, we ran into
a lake or something), that you can't open the doors after the first
few seconds, and, the door won't open until something like 30 seconds
after the car settles into the mud (and maybe not even then).

So, if the door wouldn't open, then try the windows, but, often they
won't open either (due to shorts), so you're only bet is to unhook
the seatbelt and smash out the window.

The way, they said, to smash a window, sans tools anyway, is to
kick at the BIG side (not the small side).

The big side, of course, is the side where the door opens, but
I'm not sure if we kick there just because it's bigger, or,
because it might be weaker on the big side.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:44:21 -0500, krw wrote:

The "main panel" is normally where ground and neutral are bonded. In
my house (my last three, really), they're actually bonded at a box
under the meter and run to a panel in the basement (attic and front
porch in previous houses). I call the panels "mains" but they're not.

For me, the meter and the hot/hot/neutral feed, and the neutral grounding
bar are all at the same set of three boxes connected together.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Is the general consensus that lug corrosion is what actually caused the
huge wires to overheat?

What would be other reasons? Or, is that the only reason a neutral would
overheat, when no other wire appears to be overheated?

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:41:21 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

All Square D terminals are CU/AL.

Good to know. Thanks!

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:53:06 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

[If you] bond the neutral elsewhere you are making the ground system
a part of the neutral system going back to the meter-main.

That one sentence says a lot!

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:53:06 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

A neutral is not allowed to be separated from the power conductors it serves,
other than at the termination points

This too is a very interesting observation. I was not aware of this
togetherness requirement, but it makes sense.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:53:06 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

the grounding system is not as direct as the power supply
(it may be branched and go almost anywhere)

All these observations are nuggets of gold, in that it's not intuitive
that the grounding system is more branched than the neutral system
(which isn't branched); but it makes sense once you point it out.

On 11/20/2013 12:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:17:59 -0600, bud-- wrote:

IMHO it would be best to use lugs made by SquareD for use in the panel.
Use UL listed antioxide paste - it is easy to find.

Actually, this is a higher amperage.
Does this look like a match?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-...00AN/100154050

DESCRIPTION: Square D by Schneider Electric Homeline 100 Amp Load Center Auxiliary Neutral Lug
Model # HOM100AN, Internet # 100154050, Store SKU # 279636, $4.82 / each
This item cannot be shipped to the following state(s): AK,GU,HI,PR,VI
This Homeline Breaker Box Neutral Lug is designed for Homeline load centers.
It works with #1 - 1/0 copper and aluminum wire.
It has both a UL listing as well as an ANSI certification.
For Homeline load centers
Branch, large-style design
Accepts #1 - 1/0 aluminum or copper wire
UL listed and ANSI certified
MFG Model # : HOM100AN
MFG Part # : HOM100AN


You have a QO panel, not Homeline. (IMHO QO is better.)

The lugs for QO a
LK70AN up to #2 Al or up to #4 Cu (85 or 90 amps)
LK100AN up to #2/0 Al or Cu (over 100 amps)
LK125AN up to #2/0 Al or Cu

On 11/21/2013 8:45 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Then you have to figure out how to connect the second bus to the first one.


Is the general consensus that lug corrosion is what actually caused the
huge wires to overheat?

What would be other reasons? Or, is that the only reason a neutral would
overheat, when no other wire appears to be overheated?


What I remember is the set screw looked like it rusted. That suggests
that the screw is steel. Steel has a rather different expansion rate
than aluminum, and thermal cycling can cause a loose connection. Was the
lug rated for aluminum? Expansion rate is one of the problems with aluminum.

What were the instructions for installing the lug? Did the manufacturer
want the wire to be wire brushed and antioxide paste used?

Connections for large aluminum wires are generally reliable if the right
lugs are used.

Could be it wasn't tightened adequately.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:12:23 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/1...4ba18de1_o.png

That is not a Square D panel, but no matter. Not all panels are the same.
With your panel it goes A-A, drops down a breaker and goes B-B.

Ah! Now it starts to make more sense! I was trying to figure that
out and just couldn't.

I'm amazed at what you can tell just by looking at a panel.
I see, well, I see 'stuff' - but you see AA, BB, etc.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:12:23 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Most likely you would be dead. The static electricity that builds up on those
things is so great that the difference in potential in just a few feet is close
to what is strung overhead

Ah. Again, It makes sense!
Even though those high-tension wires are insulated, they're carring hundreds
of thousands of volts, so, electrons strip off and build up in the metal of
the tower (were it to not be grounded).

At some point, that static electricity would be great enough to jump, like
lightening, to anything that was grounded.

And, were that to be me, it would be like getting hit by a bolt of lightening.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:23:51 -0600, bud-- wrote:

What I remember is the set screw looked like it rusted.

This is what it looks like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/10953807416/

thermal cycling can cause a loose connection.

If it's as simple as a loose connection, once I replace the lug,
it's *still* going to be steel on aluminum, right?

If so, the simple answer seems, to me, to be that I should tighten
the lugs once a year (or so).

Does that seem viable?

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:09:41 -0600, bud-- wrote:

You have a QO panel, not Homeline. (IMHO QO is better.)

The lugs for QO a
LK70AN up to #2 Al or up to #4 Cu (85 or 90 amps)
LK100AN up to #2/0 Al or Cu (over 100 amps)
LK125AN up to #2/0 Al or Cu

Thanks for that information. I had no clue what a good or bad
panel would be.

I don't know the gauge of the aluminum wire, but, I'll
measure it and see. The breakers are all 100 amps, so,
that should limit the gauge to certain sizes already.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 15:35:41 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:23:51 -0600, bud-- wrote:

What I remember is the set screw looked like it rusted.

This is what it looks like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/10953807416/

thermal cycling can cause a loose connection.

If it's as simple as a loose connection, once I replace the lug,
it's *still* going to be steel on aluminum, right?

If so, the simple answer seems, to me, to be that I should tighten
the lugs once a year (or so).

Does that seem viable?

I've never done that. I suppose you could inspect the panel though.

Plenty of information he

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

PDF (see p.4)

http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wire_Hazard_Reduce_2011.pdf

On 11-21-2013, 00:21, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 11-20-2013, 21:12, Nightcrawler® wrote:
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:08:08 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
Stand next to a high tension tower, say one foot away and have the
ground
ring somehow fail for this tower. Take a step. What happens?

I'm not sure what a "ground ring" is, but, I assume you're saying the
tower
loses its grounding. But, the lines are insulated from the tower, so,
I would
think nothing happens - but - again - I'm not sure how it's wired up.

Most likely you would be dead. The static electricity that builds up on

If the resistance through your shoe & sock, up your leg, down your other
leg, and through your other shoe and sock is low enough compared
to that through the earth between your feet, quite likely.

People HAVE died that way, but others have survived. With the right
shoes, and enough moisture in the soil, you might not even feel it.

Clarification. You were apparently talking about lightning hitting a
tower. I was referring to a downed transmission line. People have
occasionally been killed or injured by having one foot closer to the
downed line than the other foot.

As in taking a step towards it.

I'm not volunteering for the experiment.


--
Wes Groleau

Guidelines for judging others:
1. Don't attribute to malice that which
can be adequately explained by stupidity.
2. Don't attribute to stupidity that which
can be adequately explained by ignorance.
3. Don't attribute to ignorance that which
can be adequately explained by misunderstanding.
4. Don't attribute to misunderstanding that which
can be adequately explained by alcohol.

On 11/21/2013 10:35 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

thermal cycling can cause a loose connection.

If it's as simple as a loose connection, once I replace the lug,
it's *still* going to be steel on aluminum, right?

If so, the simple answer seems, to me, to be that I should tighten
the lugs once a year (or so).

Does that seem viable?


I think the yearly torque and tighten is
totally excellent idea. I've gone down the
row with screw driver in others power panels,
and found loose lugs.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Is the general consensus that lug corrosion is what actually caused the
huge wires to overheat?

What would be other reasons? Or, is that the only reason a neutral would
overheat, when no other wire appears to be overheated?


What you see on the lug might be heat related. With heating and cooling of
a circuit, sometimes they work their way loose.

"bud--" wrote in message eb.com...
On 11/21/2013 8:45 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Then you have to figure out how to connect the second bus to the first one.

Not much of a problem.

"bud--" wrote in message eb.com...


You have a QO panel, not Homeline. (IMHO QO is better.)

The lugs for QO a
LK70AN up to #2 Al or up to #4 Cu (85 or 90 amps)
LK100AN up to #2/0 Al or Cu (over 100 amps)
LK125AN up to #2/0 Al or Cu

In general, QO panels are the same in quality, It is the
circuit breakers that make the difference. Homeline breaker
to bus connections are better, but the QO breaker internals
are more robust.

QO breakers have a tendency, over time, to lose their clamping
force on the bus tabs. I've pulled a cover in a machine shop and
had about six breakers just fall off of the bus bar. Sadly, these
were the 120v supplies for the CNC computers. A lot of WTF getting
yelled at that moment since the machinist were inherently lazy
*******s that would never save their programs and would just program
and mill away.

My favorite panels are the SQD bolt-ons, followed by the newer Siemens
panels. The new Siemens panels are overkill for residential use.
Nice, very nice, though.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:12:23 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/1...4ba18de1_o.png

That is not a Square D panel, but no matter. Not all panels are the same.
With your panel it goes A-A, drops down a breaker and goes B-B.

Ah! Now it starts to make more sense! I was trying to figure that
out and just couldn't.

I'm amazed at what you can tell just by looking at a panel.
I see, well, I see 'stuff' - but you see AA, BB, etc.


It is more familiarity and years of experience. Plus the knowledge
of how things are supposed to work. The example you provided was
beyond odd.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:12:23 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Most likely you would be dead. The static electricity that builds up on those
things is so great that the difference in potential in just a few feet is close
to what is strung overhead

Ah. Again, It makes sense!
Even though those high-tension wires are insulated, they're carring hundreds
of thousands of volts, so, electrons strip off and build up in the metal of
the tower (were it to not be grounded).

At some point, that static electricity would be great enough to jump, like
lightening, to anything that was grounded.

And, were that to be me, it would be like getting hit by a bolt of lightening.


It is actually the potential voltage in the soil that is a hazard. One foot of
linear distance may yield over 100,000 VDC. Humidity and wind play a part in
this.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:23:51 -0600, bud-- wrote:

What I remember is the set screw looked like it rusted.

This is what it looks like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/10953807416/

thermal cycling can cause a loose connection.

If it's as simple as a loose connection, once I replace the lug,
it's *still* going to be steel on aluminum, right?

If so, the simple answer seems, to me, to be that I should tighten
the lugs once a year (or so).

Does that seem viable?


Any new panel I enter gets everything tightened. Period.

With service contracts we would check all connections on an
annual basis.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 06:04:17 -0800, wrote:

That it runs once a week is not a sign of the generator
being dumb. I still bet that it runs once a week as a
self-diagnostic, not to charge the battery.
What yours exactly does, none of us here know.

TO lay this one to rest, I snapped a picture of the placard
on the generator next to the control panel:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/1...d40085a1_o.gif

SET EXERCISE TIME INSTRUCTIONS
Place Manual/Auto Off switch to "Off" position.
Place and hold "Set Exercise Time" switch to "On" postion for 5 seconds.
Wait 30 Seconds.
Place Manual/Auto/Off switch to the "auto" position.
Failure to wait 30 sec. may cause engine to start.
If engine does start, it will shut off automatically within 2 min.
Generator will now exercise every 7 days, at set time.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 20:29:03 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

It is more familiarity and years of experience. Plus the knowledge
of how things are supposed to work. The example you provided was
beyond odd.

It was from the PDF that was recommended earlier in this thread,
for me to read, to understand how the power line transmission
feed worked.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:23:51 -0600, bud-- wrote:

Connections for large aluminum wires are generally reliable if the right
lugs are used.

Could be it wasn't tightened adequately.

I turned off the power today, and tightened them all.
They were all pretty tight. Only a couple would turn even a fraction of
a turn.
Specifically, the rusted & burned one was tight.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:53:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I think the yearly torque and tighten is
totally excellent idea

I turned off the power, and tightened *every* lug on every panel!

Who would have known that's part of normal yearly homeowner
maintenance.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:14:57 -0800, Oren wrote:

Plenty of information he
http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

The funny thing is that this web site says the aluminum wiring
was used in the 70s, but my home was built in the 80s and it
has aluminum feeder wires.

On 11/22/2013 2:32 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:53:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I think the yearly torque and tighten is
totally excellent idea

I turned off the power, and tightened *every* lug on every panel!

Who would have known that's part of normal yearly homeowner
maintenance.

Pretty much no one would know.

As to the lug that's rusty, I'd take that screw and wire out, and wire
brush the wire and the lug. Might need to go to the plumbing department
and buy a 1/2 inch fitting brush. Smaller fitting brush if they sell em.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/21/2013 8:19 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/21/2013 8:45 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Then you have to figure out how to connect the second bus to the first
one.

Not much of a problem.

How would you suggest Danny connect a second neutral bar?

On 11/22/2013 1:34 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:14:57 -0800, Oren wrote:

Plenty of information he
http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

The funny thing is that this web site says the aluminum wiring
was used in the 70s, but my home was built in the 80s and it
has aluminum feeder wires.


Because of high copper prices, starting about 1965 and going through the
early 1970s aluminum was used for 15 and 20 amp branch circuits. There
were problems with both the wire and devices (switches, receptacles).
There were fires, and as a result there were changes in the UL
standards, twice. The link is about 15 and 20 amp branch circuits. The
recommendations for making connections that are there somewhere, abrade
surface of the wire and apply antioxide paste, are relevant to all
aluminum connections.

Aluminum has been used for higher current circuits before that, and is
often used now. The connections for 15 and 20 amp branch circuits are
much different than for higher current circuits. Aluminum is quite
reliable in the heavier circuits, like what you have.

I suspect the failed lug was not rated for aluminum, or was not
tightened enough.

bud-- writes:
On 11/21/2013 8:19 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/21/2013 8:45 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Then you have to figure out how to connect the second bus to the first
one.

Not much of a problem.

How would you suggest Danny connect a second neutral bar?

A length of appropriately sized wire would likely be my suggestion.

On 11/22/2013 11:25 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 11/21/2013 8:19 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/21/2013 8:45 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Then you have to figure out how to connect the second bus to the first
one.

Not much of a problem.

How would you suggest Danny connect a second neutral bar?

A length of appropriately sized wire would likely be my suggestion.

Danny knows what an "appropriately sized wire" is?

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:34:14 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:14:57 -0800, Oren wrote:

Plenty of information he
http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

The funny thing is that this web site says the aluminum wiring
was used in the 70s, but my home was built in the 80s and it
has aluminum feeder wires.

My house is 1997. Three 220V Al runs. Two ovens and the HVAC. The run
for the AC compressor, I had changed to copper, because the disconnect
box had to be moved (related to drive-by county inspectors when
built).

Reading some of the link Al is still acceptable in heavy gauge wire
but not for branch circuits.

Mobile homes with Al wire branch circuits was a real danger as wires
became loose when the trailer was moved.

Cleaning up the wire and lug, use the gel stuff and you should be good
to go -- I'm not an electrician but I think I have this correct.

On 11/22/13 4:12 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:34:14 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Plenty of information he
http://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/aluminum.htm

The funny thing is that this web site says the aluminum wiring
was used in the 70s, but my home was built in the 80s and it
has aluminum feeder wires.

My house is 1997. Three 220V Al runs. Two ovens and the HVAC. The run
for the AC compressor, I had changed to copper, because the disconnect
box had to be moved (related to drive-by county inspectors when
built).

Reading some of the link Al is still acceptable in heavy gauge wire
but not for branch circuits.

Mobile homes with Al wire branch circuits was a real danger as wires
became loose when the trailer was moved.

Cleaning up the wire and lug, use the gel stuff and you should be good
to go -- I'm not an electrician but I think I have this correct.

There are certain fittings to use with aluminum wire. Add those and
you should be good to go. We use AL wire regularly due to the lengths
we need. Sizes range from #4 to 350 MCM. This is outside where
condensation and dirt can be problems. We seldom have problems with the
terminations.

On 11/22/2013 11:25 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 11/21/2013 8:19 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/21/2013 8:45 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

There is adequate space in your meter-main to add another neutral bus.

Then you have to figure out how to connect the second bus to the first
one.

Not much of a problem.

How would you suggest Danny connect a second neutral bar?

A length of appropriately sized wire would likely be my suggestion.

Danny knows what an "appropriately sized wire" is?

What I remember is there are a lot of breaker positions in the panel
that are not used, and as a result a lot of neutral bar positions not
used. I don't remember that a second neutral bar is necessary.

It is easy to add a ground bar - there should be a SquareD ground bar on
the label that can be used.

Adding a neutral bar is not nearly as easy. Does SquareD list one on the
label? Can you find a UL listed one? How to connect it?

I know this is an old thread, but thought I'd contribute anyway. I experienced a similar scenario. I was standing in my kitchen and saw a bright, electric flash at the bottom corner of my dryer while it was running. The dryer did not stop running in process, and it seemed to still be heating fine. Since I was watching it while it happened, I saw that the flash came from the area where the heating coils are. I opened up the back of the dryer, took out the heating coils, and sure enough, there was a nice sized black spot. The funny thing is that the coils still had continuity and the dryer is still heating. I'm not exactly sure what caused the heating coils to spark, but seeing the burned out spot on the heating element at least gave me assurance that I didn't have a short in my wiring.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 at 3:44:17 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
The wife said the dryer was sparking "in the back".
I moved things around, but didn't see anything so I tell the wife not to worry.

A week later, I turn on the 220v 3-wire dryer, and a single bright white spark
snaps in the back, between the dryer and the 4-foot 6-inch diameter aluminum
corrugated lint pipe connect to the outside vent.

Huh?

Could it be static electricity?
Could it be the dryer frame is hot?
What do I test?

The only connection to the wall is the three-pronged 220v dryer cord, which
looks perfectly fine when I remove it from the wall outlet.

There is no specific "ground" wire from the dryer to anything (should I have
put a ground wire in to the 120 volt outlet nearby?).

What would you test?
If you need pictures, just ask.

If you are wishing to get ready of your wife make sure you tell her that she
must handle dryer with wet hands.



wrote in message
...

I know this is an old thread, but thought I'd contribute anyway. I
experienced a similar scenario. I was standing in my kitchen and saw a
bright, electric flash at the bottom corner of my dryer while it was
running. The dryer did not stop running in process, and it seemed to still
be heating fine. Since I was watching it while it happened, I saw that the
flash came from the area where the heating coils are. I opened up the back
of the dryer, took out the heating coils, and sure enough, there was a nice
sized black spot. The funny thing is that the coils still had continuity and
the dryer is still heating. I'm not exactly sure what caused the heating
coils to spark, but seeing the burned out spot on the heating element at
least gave me assurance that I didn't have a short in my wiring.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 at 3:44:17 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
The wife said the dryer was sparking "in the back".
I moved things around, but didn't see anything so I tell the wife not to
worry.

A week later, I turn on the 220v 3-wire dryer, and a single bright white
spark
snaps in the back, between the dryer and the 4-foot 6-inch diameter
aluminum
corrugated lint pipe connect to the outside vent.

Huh?

Could it be static electricity?
Could it be the dryer frame is hot?
What do I test?

The only connection to the wall is the three-pronged 220v dryer cord,
which
looks perfectly fine when I remove it from the wall outlet.

There is no specific "ground" wire from the dryer to anything (should I
have
put a ground wire in to the 120 volt outlet nearby?).

What would you test?
If you need pictures, just ask.

The flash you saw could have been an insect or small rodent getting electrified.

It's plain, it's plain , the plain
No it is fuxxng martin

wrote in message
...

The flash you saw could have been an insect or small rodent getting
electrified.

So if there is a burnt wire what does that mean?