On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:31:49 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

It was hard to tell from your pix but it looks like the red and black wire
go to a 240 volt breaker. One goes to one of the hot wires and the other
goes to the other so you have 240 volts across them, the white is the neutal
an the bare is the ground.

You are correct. I followed the romex? from the hole in the wall to the
circuit breaker, and, that white romex appears to feed the 240V outlet
in the garage that you can see on the right side in this pictu
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3816/1...c5ff74c3_o.gif

The funny thing is that there are *four* wires in that Romex? cable, but,
we already determined this style of socket only has *three* connections.

Working backward, that romex? appears to come up the bottom right
rectangular hole in the panel as shown he
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/1...9c18389a_o.gif

And, then, it seems to connect to the 30A 220V breaker at the bottom
left, top breaker:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/1...698c037a_o.gif

I'm not sure *why* we would want to know which leg is black and which
leg is red but I have nothing against identifying which is which.

The only thing I don't understand is where the fourth wire goes in
that Romex? cable because we already ascertained there are only two
hots and a "grounded neutral" in the outlet on the wall.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:47:36 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5510/1...cd773bb7_o.gif

Red can be a power wire, it's often the other leg of a
220 VAC circuit.

That's interesting. It must be the case, because that "romex?"
cable has four wires in it. (1) a bare ground, (2) a white
neutral, (3) a black power, and (4) a red wire, which, if it's
a 220V cable, would then be the second power.

It makes sense that the red is merely the second 220V hot
leg, as the only other red I've ever seen is a sometimes-hot
switched 120V wire to a lamp or three-way switch.

Hi,
Yes, it is. You get 220V between red and black. 120V between neutral and
either red or black.

wrote in message ...



You see that big bare copper wire on the right side, that comes
over the top and down part way on the left? It's a ground wire
and it's connected right there to the neutral.

I thought that myself, at first. I am still uncertain if this
observation is correct. You will notice that the bare wire is
split-bolted to two other wires on the right side of the panel.
The color on my monitor is messed up and I was not able to
determine the color of the wires (insulated) that are connected
to the bare copper wire. If not green, or if there is not a
ring of green tape wrapped around each of the insulated wires,
something was done wrong.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:47:13 -0800, Oren wrote:

Looks like a 20 Amp breaker - not in use.
Wires are needed to be useful.

I wasn't sure how they connect to the bars underneath.
So, this panel seems to mainly feed three other panels
with 100A service:
1. Pool
2. Rec room
3. Laundry room

Of the four baby breakers, two are 240V but only one is in
use; while the other two are 120V but again, only one is in
use.
a. Garage 240V & well 240V
b. Unintelligible 120V

I wonder what 120V circuit is so important that it has its
own puny 30A breaker as the only 120V breaker in the entire
circuit panel?

Does it feed the generator electronics perhaps?
(PS: I can test it in the morning.)

On 11/19/13 8:53 AM, wrote:

Perhaps. I just thought of another way to make krw's day.
It's a little complicated and clearly over his pay grade.
His position is that with split-phase service, there is only
one phase present, that you can't say the two hot legs are
180 deg out of phase, etc, because it originates from only one
phase of the primary distribution. Well, then what about
open delta? Open delta allows a utility to provide 3 phase
service for lighter loads using just TWO transformers, instead of
3. It saves the cost of an additional transformer. One transformer
is connected to each of TWO primary high voltage lines.
So, they have connections to only 2 primary phases, yet
they deliver 3 phase power. According to krw's standards,
that should be called 2 phase, because it only uses two of
the transmission's 3 phases. Yet it's called 3 phase, there
are 3 phases that you can see on a scope and just like
the 240V/120V service it's done with transformers.


Another thing a bit odd is the corner ground delta used by some of
the local utilities for irrigation well hookups. 3ø, 480 vac, 100 hp or
less in my area. The meter sockets look like single phase meter
sockets. The utilities usually bring four wires into the sockets. Two
of them go to the grounded center pole. One of those two will have the
green/white stripe on it.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:27:49 -0800, Oren wrote:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7392/1...1bc0a34e_o.gif
Is that screw "rusted" and corroded on the AL wire?

I wonder if the rusted screw is related to the burnt insulation
on that wire that you pointed out to me?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 01:13:33 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

It's scheduled.
The generator fires itself up every Friday at the same time.


If scheduled it is as trader4 stated. It is a maintenance cycle.
Some stand alone units have their own A/C charger that switches
off of utility when the generator is running. It all depends on
how many bells and whistles are included with the package.

Generac is a reputable back-up power provider, and I would not
think that they would not provide such a provision. Though, some
people look at cost over functionality...until it is too late.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:18:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

West or East of 17?

East. Past where Summit road isn't Summit Road anymore.


Out towards Loma Prieta, then. Highland Way?

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:37:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

One of the AL wires looks to have heat damage on the insulation
(brown scorch) and a screw is corroded / rusted.

How you notice these things, from where you sit, and I don't even
*see* it when I'm directly in front of it, I'll never understand.

You're right! It's dark outside now (and I buttoned it all up),
but, here is a large-format picture that I had taken earlier.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/1...8917aa93_o.gif

What would make that huge neutral get that hot so as to melt
the insulation to a caramel color?

Could it be as simple as that rusty screw?

Hmm,
I wonder how long you have been living in that house not knowing all
this? I never lived in a preowned house. I always had mine built to my
liking(custom built) and have blue prints for building, hvac duct work,
plumbing, electrical lay out in the house. When I do some work on them
I always mark them on the prints. When I sell the house, new owner gets
them.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:21:26 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

That is what I have been trying to tell you.
The only differance is mechanical. The neutral is usually white and the
ground is either green, green with a white stripe, or not insulated. They
may be differant sizes.

I must apologize for repeatedly asserting that they were connected
differently!

I was astounded when I followed the wires, for the first time, and saw this:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/1...698c037a_o.gif

Just as you said, we have thick wires and thin wires going to the same spot,
and some are green, some are white, some are bare copper, and some are
huge aluminum wires, some of which are themselves bare while others are
white.

So, if I (finally?) understand it, all these (neutral & ground) wires connect
at this one point in the breaker panel, and, from there, they go via that big
bare copper wire into the ground (probably just below where the water comes in).

They *also* go straight down into the striped neutral wire which is connected
to the nearest transformer.

And, since that neutral is hopefully a better ground, *most* of the current
in that circuit will go into the striped black neutral wire.

Do I have it right yet?

Note: On purpose, I won't discuss what's happening between the house and the
transformer, because I've read every post in the 180-degree inverted argument,
and, well, I probably shouldn't have since they all just confused me to no end.


That bus bar is where the neutral/ground bond is made. Both grounds and neutrals
may be terminated on this bus bar, regardless of size as long as the barrel of
the lug they are being placed into supports the wire size. Your sub-panels might
have something similar going on, and this is okay, as long as the bus bar is
isolated from the metal of the panel enclosures. The bus bars should be on some
sort of stand-off in the sub-panels.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:48:42 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, some kind electricians leave a spare or two.

What's weird, is that there are very few breakers on this, the
main circuit panel. Most of the breakers appear to be for the
Generac and not for the house (which HUGE black wires coming out
of them).

Notice in this picture of the whole setup:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/1...9ac69976_o.gif

There are three breakers with HUGE wires (for the generac-switched
power, I think).

There are only four "normal" sized breakers, half of which are 220:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...a8b636fc_o.gif

But, of those four normal breakers, only the top one of the two
220's on the left appear to be hooked up:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3696/1...38f77b97_o.gif

And, only one of the 120s on the right, seems to be hooked up:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...8bf91e4a_o.gif

Can it be normal that there are only two normal-sized breakers
for the whole panel?

Note: There are two other panels *inside* the house; but this is
the main panel where the power comes inside the house to start with.


Not really. The meter-main is being used as a "distribution" panel
while the sub-panels are being used as "load centers". It is much
easier, while it is raining, to check a breaker inside than have
to go outside and mess with things while it is storming. It is a
modern convenience. Some places in your area still might have the
method of having everything in the external panel.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 01:21:10 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:37:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

One of the AL wires looks to have heat damage on the insulation
(brown scorch) and a screw is corroded / rusted.

How you notice these things, from where you sit, and I don't even
*see* it when I'm directly in front of it, I'll never understand.


Hey. I even know what size shoes you have, remember g.

You're right! It's dark outside now (and I buttoned it all up),
but, here is a large-format picture that I had taken earlier.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/1...8917aa93_o.gif

What would make that huge neutral get that hot so as to melt
the insulation to a caramel color?


A poor connection? Age of the install? Look at the AL wire under the
heat damaged / rusted screw / corrosion. The insulation end is black
from heat melting it more.

Get this looked at and fixed. AL wire can cause fires when stuff gets
bad. Not to frighten you, but AL wires have caused plenty of fires in
homes..

Notice the Al wire under the heat damaged one also is colored with a
yellow tint.

Could it be as simple as that rusty screw?

And a poor contact at the screw. Seem to recall they use some type of
gel to reduce arching, etc.

As I stated, I'm not giving electrical advice but speaking from things
I've read. I'd have a pro look at it and fix it.

On 11/19/2013 8:21 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
but, here is a large-format picture that I had taken earlier.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/1...8917aa93_o.gif

What would make that huge neutral get that hot so as to melt
the insulation to a caramel color?

Could it be as simple as that rusty screw?

Rusty screw can very well lead to over heating,
which might explain the brown insulation.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 01:21:10 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

You're right! It's dark outside now (and I buttoned it all up),
but, here is a large-format picture that I had taken earlier.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/1...8917aa93_o.gif

Examine the two wires above the rusted screw closely and the one
below it. I think I see corrosion on them so check them, too.

In fact, check all the AL wire connections...

Just sayin'

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:07:07 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:


I removed the enclosure that was built just under the meter panel
and, lo and behold, all this *stuff* was directly below, one of
which is a rod driven into the ground with four bare wires attached:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...326e6240_o.gif

I think that's the grounding rod, in the foreground, a few inches
away from the concrete, slightly to the right of center.

That location is directly below the circuit panel.


Yep. One of those wires goes back (should) to the neutral bus in your
meter main.

Speaking of your neutral bus. The insulated white wire that looks burnt
is not the wire causing the problem. It is the bare aluminum wire that
goes underneath it that is cooking the insulation of the wire (burnt looking)
above it.

I would recommend that the both be re-terminated using proper methods and
materials.

First choice for a mechanical lug on the bus bar would be this:

http://tinyurl.com/mo9we7o

or similar part for your specific application. There should be a model
number to verify/cross reference the part needed for your panel.

Second choice would be:

http://tinyurl.com/k7szg38

Both should be available at Home Depot. I believe your closest Home Depot
is off of Hamilton Ave, though another one could have been built in the
region since the last time I was in the area (Feb of 2007). If they are
not available there, go to:

http://www.electdist.com/

They are the local Square D distributor. Not as cheap as Home Depot, but if
you want a Square D item, they can get it for you. I would recommend trying
to get lugs that have Allen head set screws. They give better torque and don't
strip out as easily as the blade screwdriver types.

I also would recommend replacing all of the terminations of the large wires
to the neutral bus with this type of set-up. Or, a satellite bus bar may be
installed and jumpered over to the existing neutral bus using a mechanical
terminal block such as:

http://tinyurl.com/kan3ep5

They have all kinds and E.D. (previous link) should have something that would
work.

Primarily, hire an electrician so that everything checks out and make sure that
no-ox is used on that aluminum at the termination points. That neutral cooking
like that is not a good sign and hopefully it is only a bad termination and not
a severe load imbalance.

Good luck.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:35:35 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Out towards Loma Prieta, then. Highland Way?

Now you're getting too close!

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 22:09:37 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Rusty screw can very well lead to over heating,
which might explain the brown insulation.

I'll have to feel it for heat.

In daylight, I'll see if I can trace it to which circuit it
feeds, and then I can feel it to see if it's hot or not.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:57:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

Get this looked at and fixed. AL wire can cause fires when stuff gets
bad.

I thought they had fixed that problem. But maybe I'm grandfathered in.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:17:02 -0800, Oren wrote:

In fact, check all the AL wire connections...

I'll turn the generator off, shut the 200 Amp breaker feed, and then
see what I can do about the connections.

Thanks for noticing that.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:37:42 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

I wonder how long you have been living in that house not knowing all
this?

I have no idea if that was there when I bought the house, or, if it's
new. Now, at least, I have pictures to see what changes moving forward.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:33:09 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Some stand alone units have their own A/C charger that switches
off of utility when the generator is running. It all depends on
how many bells and whistles are included with the package.

Actually, I've had to replace the battery, so, I had to read the
manual, and I'm positive it runs exactly one week after I hit
the switch.

So, I'm positive it's a 7-day thing, to the hour.

It runs for 20 minutes, to the minute.

So, at least *this* generac is dumb.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:44:13 -0800, Oren wrote:



PS: Why they write these labels in pencil is beyond me.


Pencil may be erased if a change in the landing of the wires
is performed (moving a circuit breaker for whatever reason).

We curse those who use pen. White-out is not always on board. :-)

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:40:16 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The bus bars should be on some
sort of stand-off in the sub-panels.

That's interesting.
I'm trying to think why.
I guess they want only one good ground?

"Nightcrawler®" wrote in message ...

wrote in message ...



You see that big bare copper wire on the right side, that comes
over the top and down part way on the left? It's a ground wire
and it's connected right there to the neutral.

I thought that myself, at first. I am still uncertain if this
observation is correct. You will notice that the bare wire is
split-bolted to two other wires on the right side of the panel.
The color on my monitor is messed up and I was not able to
determine the color of the wires (insulated) that are connected
to the bare copper wire. If not green, or if there is not a
ring of green tape wrapped around each of the insulated wires,
something was done wrong.

Checking the new angle, it would appear that you are correct. The
first shot I looked at sort of hid that, or my monitor is getting
so bad that I not only need reading glasses, but a new monitor, too.
Probably both.

On 11/19/13 9:29 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:40:16 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The bus bars should be on some
sort of stand-off in the sub-panels.

That's interesting.
I'm trying to think why.
I guess they want only one good ground?

Hint: Electricity follows all available paths back to its source,
not just the path of least resistance.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 02:28:24 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:47:13 -0800, Oren wrote:

Looks like a 20 Amp breaker - not in use.
Wires are needed to be useful.

I wasn't sure how they connect to the bars underneath.

Your panel is made by "Square D"

IIAC, the breaker will pull away and is lifted out.

Leave it there for any future use....

.... wanna a buy a used 50 Amp breaker I have

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:19:57 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The insulated white wire that looks burnt is not the wire causing the problem.
It is the bare aluminum wire that goes underneath it that is cooking the
insulation of the wire (burnt looking) above it.

Interesting.

It makes sense that something *else* caused the scorching because if the wire
that is scorched had itself gotten hot, the entire insulation would be burnt.

So,that means, as you noted, something *else* caused the scorching of the
insulated wire.

There seem to be *two* bare aluminum wires that may be culprits:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...a8b636fc_o.gif

Looking closer at the pictures, it seems that someone might have "repaired"
a smaller black wire at the same location (by wrapping tape around it?).
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7392/1...1bc0a34e_o.gif

However, another (even closer) picture shows that the upper bare
aluminum wire does not seem to have burned the insulation on the wire
below it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5535/1...c7975152_o.gif

Here's a picture showing the *two* aluminum wires:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7325/1...8917aa93_o.gif

BTW, what on earth are the bare aluminum wires anyway?
Are they huge grounds?
Are they un-insulated neutrals?

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:28:16 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Pencil may be erased if a change in the landing of the wires
is performed (moving a circuit breaker for whatever reason).

I hadn't thought of that!

Thanks.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:31:49 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:



I'm not sure *why* we would want to know which leg is black and which
leg is red but I have nothing against identifying which is which.


It makes things easier to troubleshoot if things go wrong, and there are
certain applications where it is necessary to have specific color codes.
It is preferential, especially in commercial/industrial work, to have
everything color coded denoting phase/neutral/ground by color and by
labeling of each conductor as to which panel they originate from and to
which circuit breaker they are attached to or associated with.

Example: There are five panels labeled PNL 1, PNL 2...PNL 5. Two
panels have conduits that intersect in a 16x16x4 screw cover junction
box. To simplify what wires are what (let us say PNL 2 and PNL 4 have
3 wires each entering, among many others). There is a black a white and
a green from PNL 2, with the hot coming from circuit breaker 6. The black
and white wires would be labeled PNL2 6, or PNL2 CB6. Space on PNL2 6
is intentional. The green may be labeled only PNL2. Now, the wires from
panel 4 consist of three wires that are Blue, White and Green. As you may
suspect, the blue and white wires will be labeled PNL4 CB#. And the green
will be PNL4. The color is done to let you know what phase and type of
voltage and/or to distinguish each conductor from the other. The labeling
gives source location and termination point. It just makes things easier
when you have to go back in and start messing with things. It is not
allowed to use the wrong color of wire for a specific voltage source.

You should not see a blue wire in the power distribution of a residential
system. It happens and no one really gives a rip, but on principal this
is not supposed to happen. Black, red, white and green are what you should
see. Poly-phase systems are another discussion. That is where you will see
blue, brown, orange, yellow and purple. There are more colors, but that is
still another discussion.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:36:55 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The bus bars should be on ... stand-off in the sub-panels.

I'm trying to think why.

Hint: Electricity follows all available paths back to its source,
not just the path of least resistance.

If the neutral bars were connected to the case at the sub panels,
there might be resistance between the case of the sub panel
and the ground of the main panel.

If there is resistance, there will be a potential.

If that's right, what they want is for the wire from the sub
panel neutral bus to be the only connection to the main breaker
neutral bus, so that they *know* it is a low resistance path.

Is that right?

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:30:58 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

If not green, or if there is not a
ring of green tape wrapped around each of the insulated wires,
something was done wrong.

I don't see any green tape, so, I'll look closer tomorrow in the daylight.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:56:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The color is done to let you know what phase and type of
voltage and/or to distinguish each conductor from the other.

OK. I'm happy to know that the red is another hot for the 240V
lines.

Thanks for clarifying that. Right now I'm more worried about
the brown scorching...

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:47:13 -0800, Oren wrote:

I wonder what 120V circuit is so important that it has its
own puny 30A breaker as the only 120V breaker in the entire
circuit panel?

The breaker is sized to protect the conductor attached to it. In this
case a 10 gauge or larger wire. The wire is sized to provide the proper
ampacity to the device being powered. If you are powering a 25 amp device
you would feed that device with a 30 amp breaker as long as the device
does not have an inrush current that would trip the breaker. That is an
entirely different discussion. In essence, motors draw much more current
on start up than when running. This is a factor in selecting proper wiring/
protective methods.



Does it feed the generator electronics perhaps?
(PS: I can test it in the morning.)


Nobody here knows.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:35:35 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Out towards Loma Prieta, then. Highland Way?

Now you're getting too close!


:-)

My X was a volunteer for Loma Prieta Fire and Rescue, Summit Station.
I know the area (used to) quite well. I donated one of my vehicles
to the fire department for one of their jaws of life demonstrations.
It was pretty cool watching it get chopped up.

"Oren" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 02:28:24 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 16:47:13 -0800, Oren wrote:

Looks like a 20 Amp breaker - not in use.
Wires are needed to be useful.

I wasn't sure how they connect to the bars underneath.

Your panel is made by "Square D"

IIAC, the breaker will pull away and is lifted out.

Leave it there for any future use....

... wanna a buy a used 50 Amp breaker I have

The main breaker will not. I would recommend turning the
main off if he is going to poke around in there, especially
with so much bus bar exposed. Just sayin'.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 03:23:35 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:57:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

Get this looked at and fixed. AL wire can cause fires when stuff gets
bad.

I thought they had fixed that problem. But maybe I'm grandfathered in.

My house is 1997. When I had my HVAC replaced I made them change the
AL wire with copper. Now I just have two AL wire runs in the panel
that go to my ovens, I had them tested for amp draws /loads,
inspected, etc. If they were bad it would cost a small fortune to
replace.

No problem with it. Nothing obvious wrong with it. My rather's would
be to have it be copper, but oh well ...

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...

BTW, what on earth are the bare aluminum wires anyway?
Are they huge grounds?
Are they un-insulated neutrals?


Now that I think about it, I got it backwards. The insulated wire is
cooking the non insulated wire. So much for being tired and bleary
eyed. The bare wires are grounds.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 22:08:08 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I donated one of my vehicles
to the fire department for one of their jaws of life demonstrations.
It was pretty cool watching it get chopped up.

Yeah, I cut open doors with an air chisel, and cut circles out of
windshields to remove (fake) heads which smashed through and even
peeled off the roof like opening a can of sardines.

Amazingly, it's not easy to break a rear window or side window,
especially if you hit it dead center with a hammer or sledge.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:56:18 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

It makes things easier to troubleshoot if things go wrong, and there are
certain applications where it is necessary to have specific color codes.

I noticed the aforementioned diagram shows a red and black coming out
of the transformer:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/1...4ba18de1_o.png

Interestingly, I see a ground on both sides of the transformer.

I wonder which ground it was that I remember seeing going down every
third power pole?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:40:16 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The bus bars should be on some
sort of stand-off in the sub-panels.

That's interesting.
I'm trying to think why.
I guess they want only one good ground?


There is only one earth/ground to neutral connection
allowed in a power distribution system unless a new
service is established. The ground to neutral bond is
only allowed at the point where the service is established.
This would require a dedicated ground rod for the panel,
and no sharing of grounds/hots/neutrals of other panels.
Your meter-main is where the service to your residence is
established, and that is where the earth/ground bond is
made.