On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:19:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I don't see any provision for a strap from the dryer frame to the center
neutral connection for that particular dryer. It would be good to know where
that white wire that is under the ground screw comes from.

I think this white wire is the 'strap':
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/1...a4c91eba_o.gif

can you give the make and model of the dryer so I
can look for a wiring diagram for it ? If you have the book for it, it may
have the diagram in it for a 4 and 3 wire hookup.

It's a Whirlpool Duet Sport (from Costco); I don't have any manuals.

Sorry this took so long. I had to switch newsservers because aioe
was triplicating posts, and then dropping them because of the errors. Sigh.

On 11/16/2013 10:44 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/16/2013 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:31:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

It *is* a ground. It's connected to the case of the appliance. Would
you connect a neutral to the case?


Oh, now I'm all confused.


I remember something about a ground connection being no more than 1V
from true ground. According to that definition, the third wire could be
ground.

Then neutral is a grounded current carrying conductor. This wire is
neutral too.

--
39 days until The winter celebration (Wednesday December 25, 2013 12:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is the creationists who blasphemously are claiming that God is
cheating us in a stupid way." [J. W. Nienhuys]

On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what
it is.

"phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds
right too.

Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).


I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart?

The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the
usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2
colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green.

--
39 days until The winter celebration (Wednesday December 25, 2013 12:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is the creationists who blasphemously are claiming that God is
cheating us in a stupid way." [J. W. Nienhuys]

On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote:

[snip]

How those waveforms are derived, what else you call
them in a particular application, doesn't change the
fact of what they are and their relationship to each
other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms
could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in
a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact
180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.


I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is
2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer
primary. You still have 2 phases inside.

You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel,
secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a
2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized)
generators. You still have 2 phases.

--
39 days until The winter celebration (Wednesday December 25, 2013 12:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is the creationists who blasphemously are claiming that God is
cheating us in a stupid way." [J. W. Nienhuys]

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:19:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I don't see any provision for a strap from the dryer frame to the center
neutral connection for that particular dryer. It would be good to know
where
that white wire that is under the ground screw comes from.

I think this white wire is the 'strap':
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/1...a4c91eba_o.gif

can you give the make and model of the dryer so I
can look for a wiring diagram for it ? If you have the book for it, it
may
have the diagram in it for a 4 and 3 wire hookup.

It's a Whirlpool Duet Sport (from Costco); I don't have any manuals.


The manual is he
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5If...eb&hl=en&pli=1

From the manual, you seem to have it wired correctly for a 3 wire cord. The
white wire that is connected to the screw at the frame on the left side of
your picture goes to the neutral to give you 120 volt power where it is
needed. This is probably the way it comes from the factory as the diagram
says "neutral terminal linked to cabinet. The symble that looks like a 3
prong rake with the W over it is a symble for the frame of an electrical
device. The W is for a white wire.


That wire would be reconnected to a differant place if 4 wires are used.

If you unplug your dryer there should be way less than one ohm (small
ammount due to about 5 feet of wire) to the wire going from the neutral of
the plug to the center terminal on the dryer and also to the frame of the
dryer.

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...

I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is
2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer
primary. You still have 2 phases inside.

You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel, secondaries
in series with ground between then), a generator with a 2-phase (180 deg
apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized) generators. You still have 2
phases.


This single phase/two phase thing is almost as bad as the WD40 threads.

In the normal house at the pole (on the ground or where ever) the secondary
is a center tapped single phase feed to the house. There is very little 2
phase in the US. What is on the other side of the transformer going back
to the power company does not mater at all. The transformer converts it to
a center tapped single phase feed to the house.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:40:45 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I have a simple question that might clear some things up. The
two hot wires, are they wrapped around a bare cable that is
secured at the house and the power pole?

I do not know the answer to that question, but, I do know that
all the hot wires on the distribution power poles are supposedly bare.


You can't go outside and look at it? It is rather obvious.

"sam E" wrote in message ...
On 11/16/2013 10:34 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.


If the angle between the phases was anything other than 180, would you
call it 2 phase? If so, why this oddity?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 20:04:33 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:50:51 -0800, wrote:

It doesn't change the fact that in
a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact
180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.

I'm pretty sure I learned, long ago, that they're 120 degrees
out of phase with each other.

Nope. If you must assign a phase relationship (though it's
technically wrong) it would be 180 degrees. The phases in a
three-phase system are 120 degrees apart. Remember, a circle is 360
degrees (what happened to metric?).

The reason, IIRC, has to do with the fact that they generate
electricity with three coils. And *those* three coils are wound
symmetrically (i.e., in a Y or delta) which makes them 120 degrees
out of sync.

Yes, the generators are three-phase, as is the distribution system.

So, each of the three wires coming out of the power company
(which are the three wires on the poles along the street) are
120 degrees out of sync (if I'm correct).

So far, so good.

You only get *two* of those wires going into your house.
But they're still 120 degrees out of sync (AFAIK).

Nope, you only get one, and that one is split in half, using a
center-tapped transformer (center goes to ground/neutral).

Besides, if they were 180 degrees out of sync, what would
the third wire be on that pole?

You only see one of the three. Your neighbor might be 120degrees from
you (on another leg of the three phases) but you can't see that.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:09:54 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what
it is.

"phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds
right too.

Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).


I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart?

Yes. From it, any variation or number of phases can be easily
generated (efficiently). It's just a little trig and a transformer.

The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the
usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2
colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green.

Words mean things. The proper term for the Edison connection is
"split-phase". It *is* a single phase that is split by a
center-tapped transformer (center grounded).

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:51:46 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Tony Hwang" wrote in message news
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

No, it is single phase, or split phase. Only one phase is
used and is center tapped to split the voltage. It is
impossible for this circuit to be out of phase with itself.

+1

One leg is the opposite of the other by the very nature of the
transformer.

Bi, or to be more precise, two-phase, is a rare entity that
is primarily used in military applications, specifically in
aviation. My old Air Force generator had the ability to
provide two-phase, and pretty much anything else that you
wanted from selection of voltage to three-phase delta or wye.

Precisely. It starts with the two phases in quadrature (90 degrees)
and a transformer to generate any desired phase relationship.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 14:54:22 -0600, sam E
wrote:

On 11/16/2013 10:34 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.


If the angle between the phases was anything other than 180, would you
call it 2 phase? If so, why this oddity?

Probably. Not sure what your question is, but 2-phase, where the two
are 90 degrees apart is interesting in that any phase relationship and
any number of phases can be generated with simple transformers and a
(very small) bit of trigonometry. It's quite useful but exceedingly
rare.

Two phases generated 180 degrees from each other make no sense at all.
It's no more efficient (less, actually) than single-phase and much
less efficient than three-phase. There are all sorts of other
alternatives, as well. Six-phase is somewhat interesting at times but
it's not as efficient as three phase. There's a reason the world uses
three.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 20:18:17 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 12:05:12 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

As most dryers use the 120 volts from one leg to power the
control circuits and light , the third wire is acting as a neutral.

Well, that answers my question as to whether the neutral is carrying
current.

Since there are 120v "things" on that dryer (e.g., the timer, the
bulbs, etc.), there *must* be some current in that neutral (unless
the loads are perfectly balanced).

Yes, though it's possible to balance the two, it would be quite
expensive to perfectly do so under all conditions. The fourth wire is
cheaper.

So, in the case of my 3-wire dryer, the neutral is always carrying
current, whereas a ground wire shouldn't normally be carrying current
(because once you carry current, there is a chance that there will
be resistance, and if there is resistance, you get a potential,
whether you like it or not).

Sure.

So, maybe, just maybe, my spark, is due to a high-resistance neutral?
Geez. How do I check for a high-resistance neutral?

It would have to be a very high resistance neutral to get a spark.
Even if there is no neutral, the voltage on the common point (the
neutral on the dryer) would be very close to ground. The imbalance is
proportional to the ratio of the current in the heater and the timer.
You would measure resistance with an ohm meter. ;-)

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:28:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote:

[snip]

How those waveforms are derived, what else you call
them in a particular application, doesn't change the
fact of what they are and their relationship to each
other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms
could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in
a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact
180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.


I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is
2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer
primary. You still have 2 phases inside.

No, that's wrong. You only have one phase. It is split into two
legs. Words mean things.

You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel,
secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a
2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized)
generators. You still have 2 phases.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:07:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:51:46 -0600, Nightcrawler®

wrote:





"Tony Hwang" wrote in message news

wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



Hi,

It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.



No, it is single phase, or split phase. Only one phase is

used and is center tapped to split the voltage. It is

impossible for this circuit to be out of phase with itself.



+1


No one is claiming anything is out of phase with itself.
The simple statement was made that one of the hot legs
of a 240V dryer is out of phase with the other by 180 degrees.
Look at them on a scope, what do you see? Phase in this
context is just the relationship of one waveform to another.
Two waveforms can differ in phase from 0 to 360 deg. With a
sine wave, when one differs from the other by 180 deg, they
can also be said to be the opposite of each other.



One leg is the opposite of the other by the very nature of the

transformer.


Correct. And when you have one sine wave that is the opposite
of the other, it's a 180 deg phase difference. Look at it
on a scope or graph it. It doesn't matter how exactly the waveform
difference is generated.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:59:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-16-2013, 11:34, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the

correct reference is used.



No, it's not. Words mean things. Phase has a particular meaning

Yes and in electrical engineering, the most widely used context
of "phase" is simply the relationship of one cyclical waveform
to another. Hence, the two dryer hot legs are in fact 180 deg
out of phase with each other. Look at them on a scope. What do
you see?



and

a phase shift and inversion are different things.

From the electron's perspective, a mathematical perspective,
a physics perspective, what exactly is the
difference between saying two signals, waveforms, circuit
points, etc are 180 deg out of phase or that one is the inversion
of the other?



In degenerate cases

they may look the same but they're not. Call things by their proper

names and communication gets easier. Or not, spread lies. Your

choice.

He is calling things by their proper name. You're
insisting that a 180 def phase difference of two waveforms
must be called "opposite" and not a 180 deg phase difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)

Phase difference is the difference, expressed in electrical degrees or time, between two waves having the same frequency and referenced to the same point in time.[1] Two oscillators that have the same frequency and no phase difference are said to be in phase. Two oscillators that have the same frequency and different phases have a phase difference, and the oscillators are said to be out of phase with each other. The amount by which such oscillators are out of phase with each other can be expressed in degrees from 0° to 360°, or in radians from 0 to 2π. If the phase difference is 180 degrees (π radians), then the two oscillators are said to be in antiphase.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 3:01:43 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:



The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the

correct reference is used.



I had posted a detailed answer but it got lost since aioe is eating up

my posts, so, I'll reply again that I think they're 120 degrees out of

phase.



I replied to your original post explaining why you're wrong.




Here's why I think that.



The 3 wires on the street distribution line are all hot wires.

They come from a transformer (a whole series of them) which is wired

with three coils. Hence, they're each 120 degrees out of phase with

each other (Y or delta coils).



Then you take *two* of those hot wires, and send them into your house.

Those two are *still* 120 degrees out of phase (AFAIK).



That is where you're going wrong. You don't take two of the three
phase wires, you take ONE of them and put it through a center pole
step-down transformer. That gives you two hots and a center connection.
Between either hot and
the center connection you have 120V. Between the two hots you have
240V. The center tap becomes the neutral. If you look at the
waveforms of the two hots relative to the neutral, they are 180 deg
opposite each other.





You stick a neutral wire in between (which is just a wire to ground at

the poles) and now you have either two 120 volt circuits, or one three-wire

240 volt circuit.



The key point is that they're 120 degrees out of phase. I don't remember

the math, but that knocks the RMS (or whatever it's called) voltage to

something like 208 volts (but I don't remember the exact equation).



Anyway, since they're *not* 180 degrees out of phase, there will be

current in the neutral. Actually, I guess if the two hot wires are

not used for anything else, i.e., if they're a *dedicated* circuit,

I'm not sure if any current still goes into the neutral.



Per the above, all that is wrong.




Does anyone know if dryers are dedicated circuits?

Yes, at least every one I've ever seen.



If so, is there any current going into the neutral?



Again, as others have pointed out, the unbalanced portion
of the load current, which might be lights, timer, etc.
is flowing in the neutral




Note: If they were *not* dedicated circuits, then for sure there could

easily be current in the neutral since the loads wouldn't be balanced

all the time.

If a neutral is required for an appliance, then it should
always be assumed that current is flowing in it.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:12:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 14:54:22 -0600, sam E

wrote:



On 11/16/2013 10:34 AM, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.





If the angle between the phases was anything other than 180, would you

call it 2 phase? If so, why this oddity?



Probably. Not sure what your question is,

I believe his question is the same one I have, which is why
you insist on referring to a 180 deg phase difference between two AC waveforms only as "opposite" and deny that it is also correct that they differ by 180 degrees in phase. 180 deg is just one possible relationship between two
waveforms, where one is the opposite of the other. And that is what
you have at the dryer connection.



but 2-phase, where the two

are 90 degrees apart is interesting in that any phase relationship and

any number of phases can be generated with simple transformers and a

(very small) bit of trigonometry. It's quite useful but exceedingly

rare.



Two phases generated 180 degrees from each other make no sense at all.

Except of course to run the dryer, because regardless of
whatever you want to call it, there are two hots going to that
dryer that differ in phase by 180 deg. If you were in an EE
physics, or math course and they presented you with a voltage vs time
graph of two waveforms that you would get from an oscilloscope
hooked up to:

Hot 1 to neutral and
Hot 2 to neutral

And they asked, what is the phase relationship of these
two voltage waveforms, what would your answer be?

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what
it is. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).

Hi,
Draw the wiring out to visualize, it is just one winding with center tap!

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ...


Hi,
Draw the wiring out to visualize, it is just one winding with center tap!

two-phase and split phase are different. Reference previous link to two-phase

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:20:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:28:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd

wrote:



On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote:



[snip]



How those waveforms are derived, what else you call

them in a particular application, doesn't change the

fact of what they are and their relationship to each

other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms

could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in

a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact

180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.





I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is

2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer

primary. You still have 2 phases inside.



No, that's wrong. You only have one phase. It is split into two

legs. Words mean things.



You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel,

secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a

2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized)

generators. You still have 2 phases.

Yes, words mean things. And the term "phase" is a term widely
used in math, physics, engineering. In the context it's being
used it only means the relationship between two waveforms that
are present at the 240/120V dryer connection.

If you were in school and they hooked an oscilloscope with
two inputs up to:


Dryer hot 1 and neutral
Dryer hot 2 and neutral

and showed you those waveforms, only calling them waveform A
and B and asked what the phase relationship was between them,
what would your answer be?

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180
degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what
it is.

"phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds
right too.

Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).


I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart?

The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the
usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2
colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green.

Hmmm,
Let's refresh trigonometry from HS, draw the AC wave form on a piece of
paper(one full sine wave, 1 Hertz), what phase means or related term
leading or lagging by such and such degrees. L1 leg represent top half
of sine wave and L2 bottom half.
So how many degrees apart between L1 and L2? For convenience we can say
that L1 is positive half and L2 is negative half or vice versa..

wrote in message ...


No one is claiming anything is out of phase with itself.
The simple statement was made that one of the hot legs
of a 240V dryer is out of phase with the other by 180 degrees.
Look at them on a scope, what do you see? Phase in this
context is just the relationship of one waveform to another.
Two waveforms can differ in phase from 0 to 360 deg. With a
sine wave, when one differs from the other by 180 deg, they
can also be said to be the opposite of each other.

Re-read what I wrote, and what you and others are trying to
assert. Think really hard about it. The secondary of a
residential transformer only has "one" winding. It is fluxed
by "one" winding. Meaning that it is not a poly-phase system
Hence, no phase shift. How the primary winding is powered
varies, and just might use two phases of a three phase system,
yet since there is only one secondary winding, the secondary
winding only has one phase angle. Zero offset between the hot
legs and the center tap for there is only one winding and either
side of the center tap is at the same phase angle as the other.

To kill two birds with one stone.

In the utility world, the term "phase" references one leg (output)
of a poly-phase system. This does not matter if the transformer
is delta or wye. I would say the same thing about generators, but
you would be hard pressed to find a three-phase delta generator.
(trying to get a ground reference is a pain in the ass and cost a
a lot more money). The three outputs are called A, B, and C. There
is more about delta systems, but that does not pertain to this
conversation.

Around here, Arkansas, they supply the primary with one hot and a
neutral. In the Bay Area, Ca, the primary uses two hots. Not
necessarily poly-phase in origin, but the closer you are to commercial
buildings, and such, the greater the chance that this is the case.

Regardless, a three phase wye generator and/or transformer is the only
true power source on the grid that has a "neutral". Something you will
not see around your meter-main, ever (unless you are very lucky :-)).

I could go on, but another football game started...

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:28:26 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote:



[snip]



How those waveforms are derived, what else you call

them in a particular application, doesn't change the

fact of what they are and their relationship to each

other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms

could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in

a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact

180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.





I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is

2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer

primary. You still have 2 phases inside.


I agree. They are hung up on the fact that in an electrical
power distribution system, it isn't referred to as two phase.
But it is called "split phase", and when you split something,
well it seems you wind up with more than just one.

I would not call the electrical service two phase, as I
think someone here might have, but in
fact you do have two AC waveforms present that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other.

You could make the more general case of a "box"
that you put a sine wave into and get various sine waves
out of. They can each be described in terms of their
frequency, amplitude, and phase relationships to the
original and each other. You could have one, two, three,
10 different phases, all derived from one input.
Are they going to say that if one of them is 180 deg
out of phase with the input, that it's not correct to
say that? You can only call it the "opposite"?
Good grief!






You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel,

secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a

2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized)

generators. You still have 2 phases.



--

39 days until The winter celebration (Wednesday December 25, 2013 12:00

AM for 1 day).



Mark Lloyd

http://notstupid.us



"It is the creationists who blasphemously are claiming that God is

cheating us in a stupid way." [J. W. Nienhuys]

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:40:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The proper term is grounded conductor, and it is white.
The grounding conductor is green.

Interestingly, mine has a white wire going to a green bolt.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/1...a4c91eba_o.gif



Hi,
I think simply white always carry current. green is safety in case some
thing happens to white wire(connection) Every thing we touch
should be at ground level all the time.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:29:52 PM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:
wrote in message ...





No one is claiming anything is out of phase with itself.

The simple statement was made that one of the hot legs

of a 240V dryer is out of phase with the other by 180 degrees.

Look at them on a scope, what do you see? Phase in this

context is just the relationship of one waveform to another.

Two waveforms can differ in phase from 0 to 360 deg. With a

sine wave, when one differs from the other by 180 deg, they

can also be said to be the opposite of each other.



Re-read what I wrote, and what you and others are trying to

assert. Think really hard about it.

I have thought hard about it and I'm fully aware of
the meaning of the term phase.




The secondary of a

residential transformer only has "one" winding. It is fluxed

by "one" winding. Meaning that it is not a poly-phase system

Hence, no phase shift.

Hook up a dual input oscilloscope to hot 1 and neutral
and hot 2 and neutral at the dryer. Show that plot to a school student
and ask:

"What is the phase relationship between waveform A and B?"

What's your answer?



How the primary winding is powered

varies, and just might use two phases of a three phase system,

yet since there is only one secondary winding, the secondary

winding only has one phase angle. Zero offset between the hot

legs and the center tap for there is only one winding and either

side of the center tap is at the same phase angle as the other.


Each side of the secondary is 180 deg opposite the other. It is
referred to as "split-phase", right? When you split a something,
do you still have just one?

He

Split-phase electric power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

"A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point. "


Note the very important last sentence. That is all I and Mark
Loyd and others are saying.





To kill two birds with one stone.



In the utility world, the term "phase" references one leg (output)

of a poly-phase system.

Yes, but the utility world doesn't own the term phase.
It's widely used to describe the relationship between two
or more waveforms in math, physics, electrical engineering.
And in the broadest sense, in any of those fields, it's
simply the relationship between two or more waveforms.
Exactly how they got generated doesn't matter. If you
can hook up a scope and see two different waveforms and
one is 180 deg out of phase with the other, then that
is the relationship, is it not? And two sine waves
differing by 180 degrees is what you get from a
center tap transformer delivering 240/120.

wrote:
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:29:52 PM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:
wrote in message ...





No one is claiming anything is out of phase with itself.

The simple statement was made that one of the hot legs

of a 240V dryer is out of phase with the other by 180 degrees.

Look at them on a scope, what do you see? Phase in this

context is just the relationship of one waveform to another.

Two waveforms can differ in phase from 0 to 360 deg. With a

sine wave, when one differs from the other by 180 deg, they

can also be said to be the opposite of each other.



Re-read what I wrote, and what you and others are trying to

assert. Think really hard about it.

I have thought hard about it and I'm fully aware of
the meaning of the term phase.




The secondary of a

residential transformer only has "one" winding. It is fluxed

by "one" winding. Meaning that it is not a poly-phase system

Hence, no phase shift.

Hook up a dual input oscilloscope to hot 1 and neutral
and hot 2 and neutral at the dryer. Show that plot to a school student
and ask:

"What is the phase relationship between waveform A and B?"

What's your answer?



How the primary winding is powered

varies, and just might use two phases of a three phase system,

yet since there is only one secondary winding, the secondary

winding only has one phase angle. Zero offset between the hot

legs and the center tap for there is only one winding and either

side of the center tap is at the same phase angle as the other.


Each side of the secondary is 180 deg opposite the other. It is
referred to as "split-phase", right? When you split a something,
do you still have just one?

He

Split-phase electric power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

"A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point."


Note the very important last sentence. That is all I and Mark
Loyd and others are saying.





To kill two birds with one stone.



In the utility world, the term "phase" references one leg (output)

of a poly-phase system.

Yes, but the utility world doesn't own the term phase.
It's widely used to describe the relationship between two
or more waveforms in math, physics, electrical engineering.
And in the broadest sense, in any of those fields, it's
simply the relationship between two or more waveforms.
Exactly how they got generated doesn't matter. If you
can hook up a scope and see two different waveforms and
one is 180 deg out of phase with the other, then that
is the relationship, is it not? And two sine waves
differing by 180 degrees is what you get from a
center tap transformer delivering 240/120.


Hi,
Of course in radio wave dealing with E and M field, in acoustics dealing
with sound wave, in hydraulics dealing with liquids, gases,
etc. Doppler effect in radio wave or sound wave, light wave, etc., etc.
Also not all waves are sine waves.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:01:29 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:50:51 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:49:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:37:19 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







On Friday, November 15, 2013 7:58:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:



On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico







wrote:















On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:55:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:















I'd pull the plug, check for continuity between







power and ground prongs of the plug. I'd also







open up the case, and look for bare, burnt,







or loose wires.















This is the 3-pronged 220 volt cord connected to this dryer:







http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/1...a63d0028_o.gif















I think, IIRC, two of the prongs are 120 volt hot wires, 120 degrees







out of phase (that's the 220 volts); while the third, I think, is a







neutral wire.















180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees







out of phase. ...and it should be 240V (twice 120V).















Nonsense. 180 deg out of phase and opposite sign are



the same thing. Hook up a scope and you'll see.







Wrong. I thought you were an engineer.



Then instead of just saying "wrong", why don't

you explain the difference?



You claim to be an engineer. You should know better.



So typical. Instead of writing a few sentences to
try to explain your case, you start with the insults.
That's because you have no case.





Test question:



A graph of three sine waves is given, A, B and C,

B is shifted 90 deg from A. C is shifted 180 deg

from A and looks like it's opposite.



For the simple degenerate case of a pure sign wave, they'll look the

same. That is *NOT* the general case and that is not how the words

are defined.


How is a sine wave, which of course is exactly what AC power
is, a "degenerate case"? And they don't look
the same, they have a "phase" relationship, expressed in
degrees to each other.






irrelevance snipped - though I should snip everything you write



Yes, because you refuse to look at anything that shows you're
wrong.





How those waveforms are derived, what else you call

them in a particular application, doesn't change the

fact of what they are and their relationship to each

other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms

could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in

a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact

180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.



Words mean things. You can use them to lie all you want but I'll call

you on it.

Is wikipedia lying too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point.


Read the last sentence. They are saying exactly what I, Mark Loyd and
at least one other person have been telling you. And that is that the
two hots at the dryer are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:20:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:28:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd

wrote:



On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote:



[snip]



How those waveforms are derived, what else you call

them in a particular application, doesn't change the

fact of what they are and their relationship to each

other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms

could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in

a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact

180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.





I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is

2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer

primary. You still have 2 phases inside.



No, that's wrong. You only have one phase. It is split into two

legs. Words mean things.


And those two legs are in fact 180 deg out of phase with each
other. That is the statement you disagree with, but it's true.
Hook up a scope and look.







You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel,

secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a

2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized)

generators. You still have 2 phases.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:03:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:09:54 -0600, Mark Lloyd

wrote:



On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang

wrote:



wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



Hi,

It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.



Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what

it is.



"phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds

right too.



Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).





I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart?



Yes. From it, any variation or number of phases can be easily

generated (efficiently). It's just a little trig and a transformer.



The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the

usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2

colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green.



Words mean things. The proper term for the Edison connection is

"split-phase". It *is* a single phase that is split by a

center-tapped transformer (center grounded).

But that isn't what you objected to. You objected to someone
saying the two hot legs at the dryer are out of phase by 180 deg
with each other. That is true as can be seen on a scope.
And when you split something, can you cite
an example where after splitting, you still have just one?

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 06:00:57 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:03:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:09:54 -0600, Mark Lloyd

wrote:



On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang

wrote:



wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



Hi,

It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.



Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what

it is.



"phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds

right too.



Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).





I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart?



Yes. From it, any variation or number of phases can be easily

generated (efficiently). It's just a little trig and a transformer.



The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the

usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2

colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green.



Words mean things. The proper term for the Edison connection is

"split-phase". It *is* a single phase that is split by a

center-tapped transformer (center grounded).

But that isn't what you objected to. You objected to someone
saying the two hot legs at the dryer are out of phase by 180 deg
with each other.

Get a life Trader. You were wrong then and you're still wrong. Deal
with it.

That is true as can be seen on a scope.
And when you split something, can you cite
an example where after splitting, you still have just one?

Yes. It's still only one (and it's inverse). Get over your
misconceptions.

I really thought you were an engineer. A "sanitation engineer"
perhaps?

On 11/16/2013 1:47 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

wrote in message
news
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:35:17 -0500, wrote:

snip


It's also connected to the ground bus inside the box, not the neutral
bus. Uninsulated, too.

(which is wrong)


Not always. Older, or cheap, load centers used to do this, but the
newer panels give a dedicated ground bus with a tapping screw to the
panel case and an isolated grounded conductor bus.

It is common practice to use the same bus for both neutral and ground in
a service panel. The bus is bonded to the enclosure (N-G bond), and the
earthing electrode system connects to it.

Can also be done with a separate ground bar connected to the enclosure.
(Neutrals can't connect to such a ground bar.)

The neutral bar in a service panel must be bonded to the
enclosure/ground system.


In some instances, in meter-main/load center combos, the tapping
screw may be allowed as the point at which the grounded conductor
obtains its bond to ground, but it is preferred to do this in the
meter section of all installations so that there is no messing things
up via some moron coming in at a later time and thinking that it
is all the same...

Why I hated residential work...

Not obvious what you are saying.

The system N-G bond is at the service disconnect.

It is common for the neutral in a meter can to be connected to the can.
That is done to "ground" the can.

Your post would be more clearer to most people if you used "neutral"
instead of "grounded conductor".

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 21:59:45 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:29:52 PM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:
wrote in message ...





No one is claiming anything is out of phase with itself.

The simple statement was made that one of the hot legs

of a 240V dryer is out of phase with the other by 180 degrees.

Look at them on a scope, what do you see? Phase in this

context is just the relationship of one waveform to another.

Two waveforms can differ in phase from 0 to 360 deg. With a

sine wave, when one differs from the other by 180 deg, they

can also be said to be the opposite of each other.



Re-read what I wrote, and what you and others are trying to

assert. Think really hard about it.

I have thought hard about it and I'm fully aware of
the meaning of the term phase.




The secondary of a

residential transformer only has "one" winding. It is fluxed

by "one" winding. Meaning that it is not a poly-phase system

Hence, no phase shift.

Hook up a dual input oscilloscope to hot 1 and neutral
and hot 2 and neutral at the dryer. Show that plot to a school student
and ask:

"What is the phase relationship between waveform A and B?"

What's your answer?



How the primary winding is powered

varies, and just might use two phases of a three phase system,

yet since there is only one secondary winding, the secondary

winding only has one phase angle. Zero offset between the hot

legs and the center tap for there is only one winding and either

side of the center tap is at the same phase angle as the other.


Each side of the secondary is 180 deg opposite the other. It is
referred to as "split-phase", right? When you split a something,
do you still have just one?

He

Split-phase electric power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

"A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point."


Note the very important last sentence. That is all I and Mark
Loyd and others are saying.





To kill two birds with one stone.



In the utility world, the term "phase" references one leg (output)

of a poly-phase system.

Yes, but the utility world doesn't own the term phase.
It's widely used to describe the relationship between two
or more waveforms in math, physics, electrical engineering.
And in the broadest sense, in any of those fields, it's
simply the relationship between two or more waveforms.
Exactly how they got generated doesn't matter. If you
can hook up a scope and see two different waveforms and
one is 180 deg out of phase with the other, then that
is the relationship, is it not? And two sine waves
differing by 180 degrees is what you get from a
center tap transformer delivering 240/120.


Hi,
Of course in radio wave dealing with E and M field, in acoustics dealing
with sound wave, in hydraulics dealing with liquids, gases,
etc. Doppler effect in radio wave or sound wave, light wave, etc., etc.
Also not all waves are sine waves.

Not even power lines.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:17:34 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:59:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-16-2013, 11:34, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the

correct reference is used.



No, it's not. Words mean things. Phase has a particular meaning

Yes and in electrical engineering,

Get a refund. You got screwed.

On 11/16/2013 1:40 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

The proper term is grounded conductor, and it is white.

The term "grounded conductor" works in the NEC where people eventually
figure out the difference between "grounded" and "grounding".

"Grounded conductor" is stupid in this newsgroup.

And the NEC finally put in a definition for "neutral conductor".
"Neutral conductor" is a "proper term" for the white supply wire.


The grounding conductor is green.

White carries device current/current imbalance.

The green/bare wire equalizes potential and provides a dedicated
fault path for the circuit breaker in case there is a short
to any bonded (to ground) metal surface/raceway where the
conductors are present.

There is no such thing as a neutral in a single phase application.

Nonsense.

A 3-wire residential service is single phase and the neutral carrys the
current imbalance. It is also a "neutral conductor" by the NEC definition.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 05:55:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:01:29 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:50:51 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:49:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:37:19 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







On Friday, November 15, 2013 7:58:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:



On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico







wrote:















On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:55:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:















I'd pull the plug, check for continuity between







power and ground prongs of the plug. I'd also







open up the case, and look for bare, burnt,







or loose wires.















This is the 3-pronged 220 volt cord connected to this dryer:







http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/1...a63d0028_o.gif















I think, IIRC, two of the prongs are 120 volt hot wires, 120 degrees







out of phase (that's the 220 volts); while the third, I think, is a







neutral wire.















180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees







out of phase. ...and it should be 240V (twice 120V).















Nonsense. 180 deg out of phase and opposite sign are



the same thing. Hook up a scope and you'll see.







Wrong. I thought you were an engineer.



Then instead of just saying "wrong", why don't

you explain the difference?



You claim to be an engineer. You should know better.



So typical. Instead of writing a few sentences to
try to explain your case, you start with the insults.
That's because you have no case.





Test question:



A graph of three sine waves is given, A, B and C,

B is shifted 90 deg from A. C is shifted 180 deg

from A and looks like it's opposite.



For the simple degenerate case of a pure sign wave, they'll look the

same. That is *NOT* the general case and that is not how the words

are defined.


How is a sine wave, which of course is exactly what AC power
is, a "degenerate case"? And they don't look
the same, they have a "phase" relationship, expressed in
degrees to each other.

Because a single frequency sine wave is symmetrical, both forward and
backward, and top to bottom. Add some distortion (which is always
present in the real world) or delay and your gross simplification
falls apart. Inverting and phase shifting are entirely different
things.

irrelevance snipped - though I should snip everything you write



Yes, because you refuse to look at anything that shows you're
wrong.

You're some piece of work, Trader. You can't admit that you're wrong
*IN ANYTHING*. Even though you claim to be an EE, you're wrong. Get
a refund. Invest in Cracker Jax. It's better than your degree.

How those waveforms are derived, what else you call

them in a particular application, doesn't change the

fact of what they are and their relationship to each

other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms

could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in

a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact

180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.



Words mean things. You can use them to lie all you want but I'll call

you on it.

Is wikipedia lying too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

What do they say about scientology?

A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point.

They're wrong.

Read the last sentence. They are saying exactly what I, Mark Loyd and
at least one other person have been telling you. And that is that the
two hots at the dryer are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

They're wrong.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 17:02:48 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:20:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:28:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd

wrote:



On 11/16/2013 12:50 PM, wrote:



[snip]



How those waveforms are derived, what else you call

them in a particular application, doesn't change the

fact of what they are and their relationship to each

other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms

could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in

a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact

180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.





I think the people who are denying that it (residential 120/240) is

2-phase are considering the (1-phase) connection to the transformer

primary. You still have 2 phases inside.



No, that's wrong. You only have one phase. It is split into two

legs. Words mean things.



You could be using 2 120V transformers (primaries in parallel,

secondaries in series with ground between then), a generator with a

2-phase (180 deg apart) output, or even 2 120V (synchronized)

generators. You still have 2 phases.

Yes, words mean things. And the term "phase" is a term widely
used in math, physics, engineering. In the context it's being
used it only means the relationship between two waveforms that
are present at the 240/120V dryer connection.

Ah, an appeal to "authority". You're wrong, Trader. The two
(180degrees out of phase, and inversion) may look the same but they
most certainly aren't,

If you were in school and they hooked an oscilloscope with
two inputs up to:


Dryer hot 1 and neutral
Dryer hot 2 and neutral

and showed you those waveforms, only calling them waveform A
and B and asked what the phase relationship was between them,
what would your answer be?

They are opposite.

On 11/16/2013 3:56 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Danny wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:19:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I don't see any provision for a strap from the dryer frame to the center
neutral connection for that particular dryer. It would be good to know
where
that white wire that is under the ground screw comes from.

I think this white wire is the 'strap':
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/1...a4c91eba_o.gif

can you give the make and model of the dryer so I
can look for a wiring diagram for it ? If you have the book for it, it
may
have the diagram in it for a 4 and 3 wire hookup.

It's a Whirlpool Duet Sport (from Costco); I don't have any manuals.


The manual is he
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5If...eb&hl=en&pli=1

From the manual, you seem to have it wired correctly for a 3 wire cord. The
white wire that is connected to the screw at the frame on the left side of
your picture goes to the neutral to give you 120 volt power where it is
needed. This is probably the way it comes from the factory as the diagram
says "neutral terminal linked to cabinet. The symble that looks like a 3
prong rake with the W over it is a symble for the frame of an electrical
device. The W is for a white wire.

What do you want to ruin half the thread for?
RTFM?
I agree the dryer appears to be wired right for a 3-wire connection. My
guess is the white wire that connects to the frame at the left connects
internally to the neutral, and bonds the neutral to the frame.


That wire would be reconnected to a differant place if 4 wires are used.

If you unplug your dryer there should be way less than one ohm (small
ammount due to about 5 feet of wire) to the wire going from the neutral of
the plug to the center terminal on the dryer and also to the frame of the
dryer.

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:24:31 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 06:00:57 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:03:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:09:54 -0600, Mark Lloyd



wrote:







On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:



On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang



wrote:







wrote:



On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau



wrote:







On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:



180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees



out of phase.







Same thing







No, it's not. It's one phase.







Hi,



It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.







Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what



it is.







"phase" has a meaning. There's still 2 of them. "split-phase" sounds



right too.







Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).











I think I've heard about that. Are the phases 90 degrees apart?







Yes. From it, any variation or number of phases can be easily



generated (efficiently). It's just a little trig and a transformer.







The fact that there is this different 2 phase system doesn't prevent the



usual one from being 2 phase. That's be like saying you don't have 2



colors of holiday lights if they're just red and green.







Words mean things. The proper term for the Edison connection is



"split-phase". It *is* a single phase that is split by a



center-tapped transformer (center grounded).



But that isn't what you objected to. You objected to someone

saying the two hot legs at the dryer are out of phase by 180 deg

with each other.



Get a life Trader. You were wrong then and you're still wrong. Deal

with it.



That is true as can be seen on a scope.

And when you split something, can you cite

an example where after splitting, you still have just one?



Yes. It's still only one (and it's inverse). Get over your

misconceptions.



I really thought you were an engineer. A "sanitation engineer"

perhaps?

Typical. Don't respond to the specific points that go to the
issue, just start with the usual insults. A sure sign that you've
lost the argument and can't address the points.

Here are some references for you that say exactly what I
and Mark Loyd are saying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

"A split-phase electricity distribution system is a three-wire single-phase distribution system. It is the AC equivalent of the original Edison three-wire direct current system. Its primary advantage is that it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system while only requiring single phase on the supply side of the distribution transformer.[1] The two halves are 180 degrees apart with respect to center point."


Note the last sentence.


Or this app note on power configurations, which shows and
talks in detail about split-phase:



http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf

Second diagram down:

"The two legs, represented by Phase A and Phase B are 180
degrees apart. Since they are 180 degrees apart, wiring
them together with their relative polarities will result in...."


THAT is exactly what you objected too. A poster made
reference to the fact that the two hots of a 240V service
differ by 180 degrees in phase. You claimed that they are
not 180 deg different in phase, just "opposites". Which
is like saying the south pole doesn't differ by 180 deg
from the north pole, it's just the "opposite". Any one
with any math, science background knows you're wrong here.

Remember how you made a complete ass of yourself not knowing
how a 4 wire vs 3 wire oven connection worked? Even as two EE's
and an electrician told you that you were wrong. Even as I
said just go look at any electric stove installation manual,
which you refused to do? Well, here you are again.

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:57:03 AM UTC-5, wrote:


Ah, an appeal to "authority". You're wrong, Trader. The two

(180degrees out of phase, and inversion) may look the same but they

most certainly aren't,



And again no explanation to support the claim at all.




If you were in school and they hooked an oscilloscope with

two inputs up to:





Dryer hot 1 and neutral

Dryer hot 2 and neutral



and showed you those waveforms, only calling them waveform A

and B and asked what the phase relationship was between them,

what would your answer be?



They are opposite.

What a joke. So, if they differed by 170 degrees, or 190 degrees,
what would the relationship be then? Almost opposite?
You can't get it in your head that 180 deg phase difference
is just one special case
of a relationship of waveforms. How specifically they are generated
matters not a wit. And for the record, saying they differ by 180 degrees
is what one would expect from even a high school math student as
opposed to the imprecise "opposite".


Here is an app note from an electical eqpt manufacturer that
explains 240/120V split-phase:

http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf

"The two legs, represented by Phase A and Phase B, are
180 degrees apart." Since they are 180 deg apart, wiring
them together with their relative polarities will result in....
240V"


Notice that they acknowledge:

There are two phases, A and B.
They differ by 180 deg in phase.

QED.