On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/15/2013 10:05 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:39:41 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

While the dryer is open look around for any black or burnt areas near wires
or the internal electrical parts.

Does this look ok from where you sit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/1...cb94ac7e_o.gif


Looks fine, on my web browser.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/15/2013 10:06 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 21:42:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Three wire cord doesn't have a neutral.
Two hots and a ground.

There is a bolt for an external ground he
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/1...cb94ac7e_o.gif


It may or may not be to code, but I'd sure want to
put an external ground on my drier, if it sparked.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:31:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

It *is* a ground. It's connected to the case of the appliance. Would
you connect a neutral to the case?

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:35:17 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:31:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

It *is* a ground. It's connected to the case of the appliance. Would
you connect a neutral to the case?

It's also connected to the ground bus inside the box, not the neutral
bus. Uninsulated, too.

On 11/16/2013 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:31:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

It *is* a ground. It's connected to the case of the appliance. Would
you connect a neutral to the case?


Oh, now I'm all confused.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/16/2013 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:31:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

It *is* a ground. It's connected to the case of the appliance. Would
you connect a neutral to the case?


Oh, now I'm all confused.

In a 3 wire dryer circuit it is acting as a neutral and as a ground.
It is more of just what you want to call it. As most dryers use the 120
volts from one leg to power the control circuits and light , the third wire
is acting as a neutral. At the same time it is connected to the frame of
the dryer and is acting as a neutral. I am sure if you search the
electrical code there will be some name for this wire.

On the 4 wire dryer wiring , you do have a seperate ground and neutral wire,
but they both connect to the frame of the breaker box so in effect it is
just one wire but they go to two differant places on the dryer. Outside the
fact they may be differant sizes and color code differantly to meet the code
it would not really mater which wire was hooked to the neutral or ground at
the dryer as they both go to the same place in the breaker box.

Having a seperate ground wire for the dryer just gives an extra layer of
protection.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what
it is. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).

On 11/16/2013 10:38 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:35:17 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 06:31:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

It *is* a ground. It's connected to the case of the appliance. Would
you connect a neutral to the case?

The NEC previously allowed the *neutral* for ranges and dryers to also
be used as the ground. It is not allowed now for new circuits, but is
explicitly grandfathered for old circuits that were compliant when
installed.


It's also connected to the ground bus inside the box, not the neutral
bus. Uninsulated, too.

There are a number of limitations on using the neutral as both neutral
and ground. One of them is the circuit has to originate in the service
panel. The neutral and ground are bonded at the service. It has to
originate on the neutral bus. In many panels the neutral and ground bus
are the same. If there is a separate ground bus that only connected to
the enclosure the wire can not be connected there.

Another limitation is uninsulated wires in romex can not be used.

From gfretwell in a recent post:
"During WWII they jammed through an exception allowing the neutral to
also be used as the ground to save copper.
In the 1996 code cycle CMP 5 finally accepted Phil Simmon's assertion
that the war was over and they should dump this exemption for new
circuits. (existing can stay)"

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:55:14 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:39:38 -0600, dpb wrote:



the third wire is the ground but NEC until

relatively recently allowed the ground to also be the neutral



You seem to understand this better than I do.



The way *I* understand a "ground" is that a ground wire carries no current

(unless there is a problem). The "neutral" wire, on the other hand, *always*

carries current.



That is true. But I have to be careful here. You said that the
neutral *always* carries current. I know what you mean, but there
are some here who insist on all cases being covered. So, to be
correct, it should be said the neutral carries the unbalanced
portion of the load in that 240V circuit. Whew. I hope DD
feels better now. The ground doesn't carry current unless something
is wrong.






That's a pretty big difference (as I understand it anyway).



correct


More specifically, the way I understand a ground wire, is that it goes

from the receptacle in the wall to the main breaker panel, where it

literally is driven directly into the ground (usually by some kind of bar).



Basically correct.




In contrast, the neutral wire, as I understand it, goes to the same

breaker panel, but then it goes from there to the power pole, and then

from that pole it may travel hundreds of feet to a few more power poles,

but eventually, it too is driven straight into the ground.



It's tied to the ground system of the house at the panel.




The difference, as I understand it, is that the ground never carries

current (unless there is a fault), while the neutral is always carrying

current (and therefore it might have a potential on it).



Given that they're not at all the same thing, I then have trouble

understanding the statement that the ground is "also" a neutral.



It is for 3 wire appliances that were permitted to be installed
that way prior to the 90s when the code was changed. They use one
conductor for both the ground and the neutral.




Again, you seem to understand better than I do, but, the way I

described it above, a ground and a neutral are totally different

things.



So, I don't understand how a ground can 'also' be a neutral.

On Friday, November 15, 2013 5:14:25 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 21:40:25 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:



Two hots, and a ground. No neutral wire.



I may well be out of my league, but, I've wired 220 in

the past, and, well, *I* used two black and one white

(i.e., two hots and a neutral), and it worked, for me.



Assuming that was prior to the mid 90s, then it was code
to use a single conductor for both the neutral and the ground.
If you did it after that, it's a code violation.





My problem at that time was that the wiring was in an

old house with screw-in fuses, so, that arrangement

above would tend to blow one fuse but not the other,

which wasn't really a good idea.



I could tell a fuse had blown 'cuz the motor would

hum instead of move for the compressor. But, when I

replaced the fuse, it would work again.



Dumb. Yes. I agree. Darwin award even? Perhaps.

But, clearly, *my* 220 in that case was two hots and

a neutral.



Even if it was an old house, if you were doing new
wiring, it has to comply to current code.




I supposed had I two hots and a ground wire tied to

the cold water pipe, it would have worked as well.



And, I must note, that I've *followed* the neutral

wire, in the olden days, when wires were above ground,

from the house, to the pole, to the next pole, to the

next (as far as I could tell anyway), until it went

straight into the ground.



Hopefully it's also tied to the ground at your house panel
or else it's a major code violation.



Of course, I really didn't follow the wire directly,

but, I surmised the neutral went into the ground at

every third pole. At least that's what I remember

surmising way back when ...



So, *both* a ground and a neutral go into the ground.

The only difference, as I see it, is that the neutral

goes into the ground hundreds of feet away, and it

carries current; while the ground goes into the ground

at the edge of the house, and, it's not carrying current

(unless there is a fault).



So, given all that, I think we're talking semantics here.



It's a more than semantics.




I have two hots and this "thing" which goes into the

ground a few hundred yards from the house.



Apparently this "thing" is acting both as a ground, and

as a neutral. I'm going to check that this "thing" is

actually *connected* to the steel case of the dryer and

report back!



Thanks!

On 11/16/2013 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what
it is. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).

I agree it is single phase and commonly called "split phase".

I have never heard of bi-phase.

On Friday, November 15, 2013 5:21:18 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:14:25 +0000, Danny D. wrote:



I have two hots and this "thing" which goes into the

ground a few hundred yards from the house.



By the way, the reason (I think) I know that this 'thing'

is a neutral (and not a ground) is that it *must* be

carrying current.



If the two hots were out of phase by 180 degrees, then

we wouldn't need this third 'thing'.



Wrong. The two hots are out of phase by 180.



But, three wire distribution along the poles is such that

the hot wires are only 120 degrees out of phase (IIRC).



Wrong. Any two of a 3 phase system are out of phase by
120. But what comes into your house originates from just
one of those via a center tap transformer.



So, if I'm correct, my two hots are 120 degrees out of phase,

which means current *must* be going somewhere. That somewhere

is this third 'thing'.



Current from the unbalanced portion of the load flows
in the neutral. As others have pointe out, in the case of
your dryer that could be things like the timer, the light, etc.



Since this third 'thing' is designed to carry current, it's

clearly not a ground (since a ground isn't designed to carry

current normally).



It's both.




Now, again, the fact that this third 'thing' goes into the

ground makes it 'look' like a ground (to some); but it *must*

be carrying current; so, semantically, I wouldn't call it a

ground.



Still - I must profess ... this is only how *I* understand the

situation; and I may well be wrong (although I think it's this way).



So, I will try to explain what you guys are trying to tell me

in the next post (this is too long already).

On Friday, November 15, 2013 7:58:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico

wrote:



On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:55:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:



I'd pull the plug, check for continuity between

power and ground prongs of the plug. I'd also

open up the case, and look for bare, burnt,

or loose wires.



This is the 3-pronged 220 volt cord connected to this dryer:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/1...a63d0028_o.gif



I think, IIRC, two of the prongs are 120 volt hot wires, 120 degrees

out of phase (that's the 220 volts); while the third, I think, is a

neutral wire.



180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase. ...and it should be 240V (twice 120V).



Nonsense. 180 deg out of phase and opposite sign are
the same thing. Hook up a scope and you'll see.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:09:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang

wrote:



wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



Hi,

It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.



Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what

it is. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).

180 degrees out of phase and opposite are the same thing.
Look at it on an oscilloscope. What the exact method of
generating it is doesn't matter. If you have 3 wires entering
a box, the relationship between them is what it is, regardless
of how it's generated or what you call it.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:40:32 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:09:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:54:39 -0700, Tony Hwang

wrote:



wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:

180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase.



Same thing



No, it's not. It's one phase.



Hi,

It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.



Wrong. It's called "split-phase". ...because that's *exactly* what

it is. Two-phase is something entirely different (and quite rare).

180 degrees out of phase and opposite are the same thing.

No it's not. I thought you were an engineer.

Look at it on an oscilloscope. What the exact method of
generating it is doesn't matter. If you have 3 wires entering
a box, the relationship between them is what it is, regardless
of how it's generated or what you call it.

Wrong. But you're good at that.

On Friday, November 15, 2013 2:35:35 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message

...

It sure seemed counter intuitive that the third prong would be neutral,

and the device is ungrounded. But, I found a couple web sites that say it

is. And says that it bonds the neutral to the frame. Go figure.





For common house circits there is no real electrical differance in the

neutral and ground wires. They both start at the same point in the breaker

panel and run parallel with each other to the socket or device that they are

connected to.



There is however a big difference. The neutral carries current.
Unhook a neutral and grab hold of it in a properly functioning
circuit and you could be dead. Unhook a ground wire, and unless
something is malfunctioning, that can't happen.


..

Mechanically there is often a differance. The ground will either be bare or

green and the neutral will be white by the electrical code. They may even

be differant sizes.



When used in the 240 volt circuits the 4 th wire ground is just a redundant

wire that is connected to the frame of the device . This is an added safety

precaution incase for some reason the neutral wire would become disconnected

if only a 3 wire circuit was used.

By that standard, the ground on any 3 prong 120V outlet is similarly
redundant. Could just as well connect the ground there to neutral.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:37:19 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, November 15, 2013 7:58:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico

wrote:



On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:55:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:



I'd pull the plug, check for continuity between

power and ground prongs of the plug. I'd also

open up the case, and look for bare, burnt,

or loose wires.



This is the 3-pronged 220 volt cord connected to this dryer:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/1...a63d0028_o.gif



I think, IIRC, two of the prongs are 120 volt hot wires, 120 degrees

out of phase (that's the 220 volts); while the third, I think, is a

neutral wire.



180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees

out of phase. ...and it should be 240V (twice 120V).



Nonsense. 180 deg out of phase and opposite sign are
the same thing. Hook up a scope and you'll see.

Wrong. I thought you were an engineer.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:49:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:37:19 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, November 15, 2013 7:58:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico



wrote:







On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:55:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:







I'd pull the plug, check for continuity between



power and ground prongs of the plug. I'd also



open up the case, and look for bare, burnt,



or loose wires.







This is the 3-pronged 220 volt cord connected to this dryer:



http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/1...a63d0028_o.gif







I think, IIRC, two of the prongs are 120 volt hot wires, 120 degrees



out of phase (that's the 220 volts); while the third, I think, is a



neutral wire.







180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees



out of phase. ...and it should be 240V (twice 120V).







Nonsense. 180 deg out of phase and opposite sign are

the same thing. Hook up a scope and you'll see.



Wrong. I thought you were an engineer.

Then instead of just saying "wrong", why don't
you explain the difference?

Test question:

A graph of three sine waves is given, A, B and C,
B is shifted 90 deg from A. C is shifted 180 deg
from A and looks like it's opposite.

Question:

1 - What is the phase realtionshiof B to A?

2 - What is the phase realtionship of C to A?

My answer to 1 is B is 90 deg out of phase relative
to A.

My answer to 2 is C is 180 deg out of phase relative
to A. To a lay person, it could also be called it's
"opposite".

How those waveforms are derived, what else you call
them in a particular application, doesn't change the
fact of what they are and their relationship to each
other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms
could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in
a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact
180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.

On 11-16-2013, 11:34, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the
correct reference is used.


--
Wes Groleau

There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

On 11-16-2013, 12:48, wrote:
Unhook a neutral and grab hold of it in a properly functioning
circuit and you could be dead. Unhook a ground wire, and unless
something is malfunctioning, that can't happen.

Could be--IFF there were an available path to earth through you.

Otherwise, you might have absolutely no clue that you just did something
stupid.

--
Wes Groleau

There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-16-2013, 11:34, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the
correct reference is used.

No, it's not. Words mean things. Phase has a particular meaning and
a phase shift and inversion are different things. In degenerate cases
they may look the same but they're not. Call things by their proper
names and communication gets easier. Or not, spread lies. Your
choice.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:50:51 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:49:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:37:19 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, November 15, 2013 7:58:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico



wrote:







On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:55:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:







I'd pull the plug, check for continuity between



power and ground prongs of the plug. I'd also



open up the case, and look for bare, burnt,



or loose wires.







This is the 3-pronged 220 volt cord connected to this dryer:



http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5495/1...a63d0028_o.gif







I think, IIRC, two of the prongs are 120 volt hot wires, 120 degrees



out of phase (that's the 220 volts); while the third, I think, is a



neutral wire.







180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees



out of phase. ...and it should be 240V (twice 120V).







Nonsense. 180 deg out of phase and opposite sign are

the same thing. Hook up a scope and you'll see.



Wrong. I thought you were an engineer.

Then instead of just saying "wrong", why don't
you explain the difference?

You claim to be an engineer. You should know better.

Test question:

A graph of three sine waves is given, A, B and C,
B is shifted 90 deg from A. C is shifted 180 deg
from A and looks like it's opposite.

For the simple degenerate case of a pure sign wave, they'll look the
same. That is *NOT* the general case and that is not how the words
are defined.

irrelevance snipped - though I should snip everything you write

How those waveforms are derived, what else you call
them in a particular application, doesn't change the
fact of what they are and their relationship to each
other. There are many ways that such voltage waveforms
could be generated. It doesn't change the fact that in
a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact
180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.

Words mean things. You can use them to lie all you want but I'll call
you on it.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.

The proper term is grounded conductor, and it is white.
The grounding conductor is green.

White carries device current/current imbalance.
The green/bare wire equalizes potential and provides a dedicated
fault path for the circuit breaker in case there is a short
to any bonded (to ground) metal surface/raceway where the
conductors are present.

There is no such thing as a neutral in a single phase application.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/15/2013 10:06 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 21:42:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Three wire cord doesn't have a neutral.
Two hots and a ground.

There is a bolt for an external ground he
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/1...cb94ac7e_o.gif


It may or may not be to code, but I'd sure want to
put an external ground on my drier, if it sparked.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Nothing wrong with that as long as the installation is
installed per code. You may ground every metal thing in
your house, if you want to.

wrote in message news
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:35:17 -0500, wrote:

snip


It's also connected to the ground bus inside the box, not the neutral
bus. Uninsulated, too.

Not always. Older, or cheap, load centers used to do this, but the
newer panels give a dedicated ground bus with a tapping screw to the
panel case and an isolated grounded conductor bus.

In some instances, in meter-main/load center combos, the tapping
screw may be allowed as the point at which the grounded conductor
obtains its bond to ground, but it is preferred to do this in the
meter section of all installations so that there is no messing things
up via some moron coming in at a later time and thinking that it
is all the same...

Why I hated residential work...

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message news
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.

Hi,
It's called bi-phase. aka Edison circuit.

No, it is single phase, or split phase. Only one phase is
used and is center tapped to split the voltage. It is
impossible for this circuit to be out of phase with itself.

Bi, or to be more precise, two-phase, is a rare entity that
is primarily used in military applications, specifically in
aviation. My old Air Force generator had the ability to
provide two-phase, and pretty much anything else that you
wanted from selection of voltage to three-phase delta or wye.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:40:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The proper term is grounded conductor, and it is white.
The grounding conductor is green.

Interestingly, mine has a white wire going to a green bolt.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/1...a4c91eba_o.gif

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the
correct reference is used.

I had posted a detailed answer but it got lost since aioe is eating up
my posts, so, I'll reply again that I think they're 120 degrees out of
phase.

Here's why I think that.

The 3 wires on the street distribution line are all hot wires.
They come from a transformer (a whole series of them) which is wired
with three coils. Hence, they're each 120 degrees out of phase with
each other (Y or delta coils).

Then you take *two* of those hot wires, and send them into your house.
Those two are *still* 120 degrees out of phase (AFAIK).

You stick a neutral wire in between (which is just a wire to ground at
the poles) and now you have either two 120 volt circuits, or one three-wire
240 volt circuit.

The key point is that they're 120 degrees out of phase. I don't remember
the math, but that knocks the RMS (or whatever it's called) voltage to
something like 208 volts (but I don't remember the exact equation).

Anyway, since they're *not* 180 degrees out of phase, there will be
current in the neutral. Actually, I guess if the two hot wires are
not used for anything else, i.e., if they're a *dedicated* circuit,
I'm not sure if any current still goes into the neutral.

Does anyone know if dryers are dedicated circuits?
If so, is there any current going into the neutral?

Note: If they were *not* dedicated circuits, then for sure there could
easily be current in the neutral since the loads wouldn't be balanced
all the time.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:50:51 -0800, wrote:

It doesn't change the fact that in
a 240V residential service the two hots are in fact
180 deg out of phase realtive to each other.

I'm pretty sure I learned, long ago, that they're 120 degrees
out of phase with each other.

The reason, IIRC, has to do with the fact that they generate
electricity with three coils. And *those* three coils are wound
symmetrically (i.e., in a Y or delta) which makes them 120 degrees
out of sync.

So, each of the three wires coming out of the power company
(which are the three wires on the poles along the street) are
120 degrees out of sync (if I'm correct).

You only get *two* of those wires going into your house.
But they're still 120 degrees out of sync (AFAIK).

Besides, if they were 180 degrees out of sync, what would
the third wire be on that pole?

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:48:29 -0800, wrote:

The neutral carries current.

Yup. The neutral carries current, a ground isn't supposed to carry
current (unless something goes wrong).

That's why it threw me when I realized this neutral is connected
to the case of the dryer.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...f1549d6d_o.gif

So, I do see that the ground and the neutral are muddled here,
in that the neutral is also the ground for the dryer frame.

So, I guess, a neutral can also function as a ground; but I
wouldn't want to see a ground functioning also as a neutral.

NOTE: I sure *hope* the ground wires and neutral wires are attached
to *different* points (both at zero potential) at the circuit panel.

I had always thought the ground goes into the ground at the house;
but that the neutral goes into the ground at the pole (and not
necessarily the first pole from the house but not more than 2 or
3 poles after the house).

Is any of that correct? Or am I wrong (again)?

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 12:05:12 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

As most dryers use the 120 volts from one leg to power the
control circuits and light , the third wire is acting as a neutral.

Well, that answers my question as to whether the neutral is carrying
current.

Since there are 120v "things" on that dryer (e.g., the timer, the
bulbs, etc.), there *must* be some current in that neutral (unless
the loads are perfectly balanced).

So, in the case of my 3-wire dryer, the neutral is always carrying
current, whereas a ground wire shouldn't normally be carrying current
(because once you carry current, there is a chance that there will
be resistance, and if there is resistance, you get a potential,
whether you like it or not).

So, maybe, just maybe, my spark, is due to a high-resistance neutral?
Geez. How do I check for a high-resistance neutral?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:40:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The proper term is grounded conductor, and it is white.
The grounding conductor is green.

Interestingly, mine has a white wire going to a green bolt.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/1...a4c91eba_o.gif




It is wrong of them to do this, but I guess some moron engineer
thought this would not confuse someone, though in this application
I do not see how. In a hard wired installation, yes. Still wrong.
Bonding jumpers are to be green/bare/yellow with green stripe if
you are into non-American color coding.

That wire still needs to be terminated, or have a separate wire,
terminated to the center terminal. This will be your chassis ground
or what is called a bonding jumper.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 09:48:29 -0800, wrote:

The neutral carries current.

Yup. The neutral carries current, a ground isn't supposed to carry
current (unless something goes wrong).

That's why it threw me when I realized this neutral is connected
to the case of the dryer.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...f1549d6d_o.gif

So, I do see that the ground and the neutral are muddled here,
in that the neutral is also the ground for the dryer frame.

So, I guess, a neutral can also function as a ground; but I
wouldn't want to see a ground functioning also as a neutral.

NOTE: I sure *hope* the ground wires and neutral wires are attached
to *different* points (both at zero potential) at the circuit panel.

I had always thought the ground goes into the ground at the house;
but that the neutral goes into the ground at the pole (and not
necessarily the first pole from the house but not more than 2 or
3 poles after the house).

Is any of that correct? Or am I wrong (again)?


Time for football. TTYL

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the
correct reference is used.

I had posted a detailed answer but it got lost since aioe is eating up
my posts, so, I'll reply again that I think they're 120 degrees out of
phase.

Here's why I think that.

The 3 wires on the street distribution line are all hot wires.
They come from a transformer (a whole series of them) which is wired
with three coils. Hence, they're each 120 degrees out of phase with
each other (Y or delta coils).

Then you take *two* of those hot wires, and send them into your house.
Those two are *still* 120 degrees out of phase (AFAIK).

You stick a neutral wire in between (which is just a wire to ground at
the poles) and now you have either two 120 volt circuits, or one three-wire
240 volt circuit.

The key point is that they're 120 degrees out of phase. I don't remember
the math, but that knocks the RMS (or whatever it's called) voltage to
something like 208 volts (but I don't remember the exact equation).

Anyway, since they're *not* 180 degrees out of phase, there will be
current in the neutral. Actually, I guess if the two hot wires are
not used for anything else, i.e., if they're a *dedicated* circuit,
I'm not sure if any current still goes into the neutral.

Does anyone know if dryers are dedicated circuits?
If so, is there any current going into the neutral?

Note: If they were *not* dedicated circuits, then for sure there could
easily be current in the neutral since the loads wouldn't be balanced
all the time.


As an aside, I would trace that wire and find out where it goes. Odds
are that it is supposed to be terminated to the center terminal.

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:40:45 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I have a simple question that might clear some things up. The
two hot wires, are they wrapped around a bare cable that is
secured at the house and the power pole?

I do not know the answer to that question, but, I do know that
all the hot wires on the distribution power poles are supposedly bare.

On 11/16/2013 05:31 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:58 PM, wrote:

So, there is no ground that I know of, if I understood this correctly.
That's why I asked if you guys ADD a ground wire in this situation?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/1...473a60a8_o.gif

The ground is a must, for safety. At one time, it was allowed to run
the timer current though ground. A neutral conductor is now required
for that current.


I've been trying to figure if the cold wire of a
three wire dryer is a neutral or ground. I'd thought
it was a ground, but some folks on the list and
on the web thought it's a neutral.


I'm looking at the receptacle chart at
http://www.repeater-builder.com/tech...on-locking.pdf

The normal three-wire dryer receptacle appears to be on line 10
(125/250V). This receptacle has 2 hots and neutral. This is different
from line 6 (250V with ground).

--
39 days until The winter celebration (Wednesday December 25, 2013 12:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is the creationists who blasphemously are claiming that God is
cheating us in a stupid way." [J. W. Nienhuys]

On 11/16/2013 10:34 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:17:23 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-15-2013, 19:58, wrote:
180 degrees, but technically, no. It's opposite sign, not 180 degrees
out of phase.

Same thing

No, it's not. It's one phase.


If the angle between the phases was anything other than 180, would you
call it 2 phase? If so, why this oddity?