Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:36:30 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arenÂ’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

The water in the flue gases.

The requirement for new gas boiler installations to be condensing types was
introduced in England+Wales back in 2005. However over here, there are
exemptions available if it is impractical (ie impossible or unreasonably
costly) to provide a flue for it - one of the more likely examples will be a
row of terraced houses with centrally positioned back-boilers (in a
fireplace) where the costs of moving all the plumbing to the front or back
walls would be unfeasible.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

On Nov 24, 4:56*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:25:48 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:



Yep, in this news group, all regulations are phony because the posters
are so smart.

Yeah, *pretty much. *Used to be able to burn leaves. *Not now. *Have
to pay for front end loaders and dump trucks to haul them away.
R-12. *Catalytic converters. CFL's. *No smoking in hospitals.
On and on and on.
This is the best part of the posted article.

"There’s still another concern — and another possible cost — if a home
has a standard 40- or 50-gallon gas water heater. Those heaters are
generally vented through the chimney along with the older furnaces.
But after removing the old furnace venting pipe, there is not enough
heat generated in the chimney by the water heater venting pipe alone
to prevent condensation from occurring. And that condensation will
include sulfuric acid, which can eat away at a chimney’s mortar
joints. Re-venting the water heater could increase the total cost of
the new furnace project by $3,000 to $4,000, Baum said."

So in that world gas furnaces run winter and summer to provide draft
for the water heater. *Strange world.
But does add "$3,000 to $4,000" to get the Chicken Littles flapping
and clucking.

Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned
water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is
now way too small, because it was sized for both the
water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the
issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that
is not entirely contained within the heated part of the
house, condensation occurs because the gases now
cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the
chimney was kept warm enough so that this would
not happen. And that condensation, over time, will
destroy the mortar in a chimney.

And the other issue is that this is a classic example
of govt "fixing" a problem that does not exist. It's
an obvious lie that this new rule is going to result in
a 20% savings in total energy usage. All it does is
force all people to do what probably 90%+ were
already doing. And that is that when they decide
to replace their gas furnace, it will be with one that
is 90%+ efficient.

It never even sunk into their pea brains that to some
extent, it could have precisely the opposite effect.
Let's say someone has a 35 year old gas furnace.
When it was new, it might have had a 70% efficiency.
Now being old, it may be down to 50%. They looked
at the alternatives and because of the way their house
is contructed, putting in a direct vent one would cost
too much. They would however put in an 80% one.
But now, instead, they will choose to do nothing.

What's next? For the libs to
mandate that we all breathe a certain number of
times an hour too? Or more likely, continue to
expand and control what we can eat, because
only you libs are smart enough to know what's
best for all of us and we must live by your rules?
Leave me free to choose.

On Nov 24, 12:37*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Anyone who can read and comprehend understands that
what that means is that similar EPA rules for minimum energy
efficiency will apply to states in southern climates. * They
are applying rules for furnaces where it's cold and rules for
AC where it's hot, because that's where the most energy
is used. *Really simple concepts.

Hi,
This is no brainer. Higher efficiency furnaces and higher SEER a/c
units. I got digned pretty bad when I upgraded ~20 yo system during
summer time. 98% efficiency furnace, 18SEER a/c and HRV box, wireless
thermostat, etc. I had to cancel my summer vacation to pay for it, LOL!
Utility bill shows slight barely noticeable power and gas savings.

What was the efficiency of the 20 year old system?
Having a barely noticeable energy savings on gas and
electric when replacing a system that old would seem
to be very unusual. I put in a new 93% gas furnace
and 14 SEER AC two years ago and the difference was
large. It cut my gas bill almost in half, summer AC by
about 30% or so.

On Nov 24, 7:10*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:36:30 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?

What's condensing in a furnace?? *Never heard of that before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Water from the combustion gases when so much
heat is extracted the water can no longer remain
in the vapor phase.

On Nov 24, 3:51*pm, George wrote:
On 11/24/2012 11:44 AM, DA wrote:

responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/new-regs-to-make-furnace-rep...
DA wrote:
HeyBub *wrote:

The new energy-efficient natural gas
furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ...

Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.

I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.

But that is sensible reasoning that doesn't flow with the normal heybub
drama...

There are a number of potential problems with trying
to route the direct vent pipes up the old chimney.
One is the maximum length permitted. It's not unlimited
and there is a set maximum spec for the particular
furnace. Something like 35 feet or so. And that
included derating for any turns. So, you could easily find
that routing from the furnace, up the old chimney,
exceeds the max length allowed. An even bigger
problem is how do
you support the long runs of PVC pipe inside an
existing chimney? Again, specs for install call for
the pipe to be supported every 4 ft along their run.
Every chimney I've seen, you have access at
the bottom and top only.

Finally, when you have a gas furnace, you almost
always have a gas water heater which is also
using that chimney. You can't be running flue gases
from the water heater into a chimney that has the
PVC pipes from the furnace. So, even if you
could use the chimney, you would also have to
install a new direct vent water heater, again at
increased cost. Since you're already forced to try
to use the chimney for direct vent, it's not likely that
the water heater install is going to be easy either.
And increased cost not just for
this one time, but about every 10 years when you
have to buy a new one. And also have no hot
water when the power goes out, as it did here
with Sandy. Having a conventional water heater,
I had hot water.

I do remember you menton her. Sounds like that furnace has been brought back
from destruction several times. She should start budgeting for replacement.

My parents cellar floods every now and again. It hasn't flooded since I
bought a sump pump and 75 foot of discharghe hose from Harbor Freight.

I also do odd jobs for folks, they know I can fix things, and won't cheat
them out of a lot of money.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

I had repaired her furnace a year or two back after GB died when her
basement flooded and destroyed the control board. Some moron from
another service company had bypassed the flame roll-out switch which
resulted it the wiring harness being burned up. Repairing the wiring
and replacing the board had it running for at least a year but a few
weeks ago the furnace quit and I found that a delayed reaction with
moisture had damaged the circuit board in the Honeywell Smart Gas Valve.
I replaced the gas valve and everything was back to working as normal.
Me and GB had pumped out her basement several years ago and replaced the
sump pump, check valve and pipes. The later flood happened due to a
power outage during a heavy rain. Now I'm checking into a backup sump
pump solution for her. I'm going to take care of the elderly customers
as best I can because some jerk is going to show up and rip them off. My
late friend GB and me helped out a lot of older folks and last week I
was over at his 78 year old sister's place fixing
her tankless water heater. Now I have to put together a kit to clean
tankless water heaters. ^_^

TDD

I havn't known that to be a problem. The condensate does tend to be strongly
acidic. I put in a 90 percenter in my own home, I think it was year 2004. It
has been repaired once since then. The draft inducer fan went dead, and I
had to go buy another one.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
Doesn't that eventually leave you with an icky sticky gummy residue?

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:46:14 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water
vapor. If you can condense some of that steam
back to water, you can get more heat from the
fire.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
.. .

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

I think you mean the chimney is way too large.

That said, I've helped install flue liners, for the
water heater, in the cases where people put in
a 90 percenter furnace.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...


Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned
water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is
now way too small, because it was sized for both the
water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the
issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that
is not entirely contained within the heated part of the
house, condensation occurs because the gases now
cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the
chimney was kept warm enough so that this would
not happen. And that condensation, over time, will
destroy the mortar in a chimney.

SRN wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
wrote:

Arrant nonsense. The higher the demand, the lower the price. That is
if the government stays out of the way.


No, that is utter nonsense and violates the law of supply & demand.
The higher the SUPPLY, with a constant demand, the LOWER the price.

You're right - I phrased that inelegantly.

I should have said "The higher the demand, the greater the supply which will
drive down prices.

On 11/25/2012 6:48 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I do remember you menton her. Sounds like that furnace has been brought back
from destruction several times. She should start budgeting for replacement.

My parents cellar floods every now and again. It hasn't flooded since I
bought a sump pump and 75 foot of discharghe hose from Harbor Freight.

I also do odd jobs for folks, they know I can fix things, and won't cheat
them out of a lot of money.


That darn Honeywell Smart Gas Valve has the electronics in it for the
hot surface igniter, flame sensor, pilot and main gas valve control.
It's an expensive gas valve. Most places sell them for $230-$250 but
my buddy at the supply house let me have one for a total of $165.00.
I gave it to the old gal at cost. I can't imagine what the shinny new
truck service company would charge her for it. The next day, me and JH
were in Columbus, Mississippi installing a couple of 42" data displays
in a large retail store. Each one took two Cat 6 cable runs back to the
data rack in the office where we hooked them up and got them going.
Monday, I have to go to another retail store and extend a T1 demarc for
a new VPN connection. I'll have to do some ladder climbing and that's
going to hurt like hell. O_o

TDD

On 11/25/2012 7:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:51 pm, George wrote:
On 11/24/2012 11:44 AM, DA wrote:

responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/new-regs-to-make-furnace-rep...
DA wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

The new energy-efficient natural gas
furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ...

Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.

I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.

But that is sensible reasoning that doesn't flow with the normal heybub
drama...

There are a number of potential problems with trying
to route the direct vent pipes up the old chimney.
One is the maximum length permitted. It's not unlimited
and there is a set maximum spec for the particular
furnace. Something like 35 feet or so. And that
included derating for any turns. So, you could easily find
that routing from the furnace, up the old chimney,
exceeds the max length allowed. An even bigger
problem is how do
you support the long runs of PVC pipe inside an
existing chimney? Again, specs for install call for
the pipe to be supported every 4 ft along their run.
Every chimney I've seen, you have access at
the bottom and top only.

But the chimney isn't the only route. Our boiler is in the middle of the
basement and we ran both lines out a sidewall.

As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for
almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase.



Finally, when you have a gas furnace, you almost
always have a gas water heater which is also
using that chimney. You can't be running flue gases
from the water heater into a chimney that has the
PVC pipes from the furnace. So, even if you
could use the chimney, you would also have to
install a new direct vent water heater, again at
increased cost. Since you're already forced to try
to use the chimney for direct vent, it's not likely that
the water heater install is going to be easy either.
And increased cost not just for
this one time, but about every 10 years when you
have to buy a new one. And also have no hot
water when the power goes out, as it did here
with Sandy. Having a conventional water heater,
I had hot water.

On Nov 25, 8:12*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
*I think you mean the chimney is way too large.

Yes I did.


That said, I've helped install flue liners, for the
water heater, in the cases where people put in
a 90 percenter furnace.

Yes, that's one very practical solution. But it's also
one of those things that adds to the installation cost
of the furnace. Assuming of course you don't just
ignore it to win the bid.

On Nov 25, 9:52*am, George wrote:
On 11/25/2012 7:46 AM, wrote:





On Nov 24, 3:51 pm, George wrote:
On 11/24/2012 11:44 AM, DA wrote:

responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/new-regs-to-make-furnace-rep...
DA wrote:
HeyBub *wrote:

The new energy-efficient natural gas
furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ...

Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.

I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.

But that is sensible reasoning that doesn't flow with the normal heybub
drama...

There are a number of potential problems with trying
to route the direct vent pipes up the old chimney.
One is the maximum length permitted. *It's not unlimited
and there is a set maximum spec for the particular
furnace. *Something like 35 feet or so. *And that
included derating for any turns. *So, you could easily find
that routing from the furnace, up the old chimney,
exceeds the max length allowed. * An even bigger
problem is how do
you support the long runs of PVC pipe inside an
existing chimney? *Again, specs for install call for
the pipe to be supported every 4 ft along their run.
Every chimney I've seen, you have access at
the bottom and top only.

But the chimney isn't the only route. Our boiler is in the middle of the
basement and we ran both lines out a sidewall.

I never said it was. And venting it out a side wall is the
most used option. But I was responding to those who implied
that the existing chimney is a viable alternative for routing the
PVC pipes. From all that I see and know, it's typically not an
option at all.....





As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for
almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase..



Go take a look at the install manual for a typical gas furnace.
It's very specific, requires the PVC pipes to be supported every
4 ft. No exceptions for a 30 ft run up a chimney. Have you ever
seen a PVC pipe run of any kind the length
of an entire chimney that isn't supported every few feet along
it's run? One that passed a plumbing inspection that is?








Finally, when you have a gas furnace, you almost
always have a gas water heater which is also
using that chimney. *You can't be running flue gases
from the water heater into a chimney that has the
PVC pipes from the furnace. * *So, even if you
could use the chimney, you would also have to
install a new direct vent water heater, again at
increased cost. *Since you're already forced to try
to use the chimney for direct vent, it's not likely that
the water heater install is going to be easy either.
And increased cost not just for
this one time, but about every 10 years when you
have to buy a new one. * And also have no hot
water when the power goes out, as it did here
with Sandy. * Having a conventional water heater,
I had hot water.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Nov 24, 7:32*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:



On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.

Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K

On Nov 25, 11:00*am, Harry K wrote:
On Nov 24, 7:32*am, mike wrote:





On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:

On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.

Yep. *As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the market is incapable of innovation, then how
exactly do you explain the cell phone, PC, cordless drill,
and all the other items that have a long history of innovation
that has driven cost down, increased features, etc?

Not a strange world. * *The issue is that an orphaned
water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is
now way too small, because it was sized for both the
water heater and a gas furnace. *Drafting is NOT the
issue. *Condensation is. * In the winter in a chimney that
is not entirely contained within the heated part of the
house, condensation occurs because the gases now
cool off too much. * With a furnace also running, the
chimney was kept warm enough so that this would
not happen. * And that condensation, over time, will
destroy the mortar in a chimney.

around here in pittsburgh the furnace typically used one flue a
seperate flue for the water heater.

after all for a large part of the year the furnace would rarely if
ever run..

in pittsburgh late april till mid october///

and its not a biggie to cut a hole in a concrete wall or block wall
despite what some people think, direct vent is way better.......

overreaction to safety and efficency rules is just that
overreaction...

i suggest to those people bothered by this that most rules are
reasonable.

Take the NEC, we all benefit from safer and more efficent electrical
systems, safer vehicles with better gas mileage etc etc

On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all


But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article
in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would
handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?)
the much higher installation costs.

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 8:53:25 AM UTC-5, HeyBub wrote:
SRN wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...

wrote:



Arrant nonsense. The higher the demand, the lower the price. That is

if the government stays out of the way.





No, that is utter nonsense and violates the law of supply & demand.

The higher the SUPPLY, with a constant demand, the LOWER the price.



You're right - I phrased that inelegantly.



I should have said "The higher the demand, the greater the supply which will

drive down prices.

Still totally wrong. Especially with something like energy which has limited supply and extracting more from the ground drives prices way up.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 04:28:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Nov 24, 4:56Â*pm, Vic Smith wrote:

This is the best part of the posted article.

"Theres still another concern €” and another possible cost €” if a home
has a standard 40- or 50-gallon gas water heater. Those heaters are
generally vented through the chimney along with the older furnaces.
But after removing the old furnace venting pipe, there is not enough
heat generated in the chimney by the water heater venting pipe alone
to prevent condensation from occurring. And that condensation will
include sulfuric acid, which can eat away at a chimneys mortar
joints. Re-venting the water heater could increase the total cost of
the new furnace project by $3,000 to $4,000, Baum said."

So in that world gas furnaces run winter and summer to provide draft
for the water heater. Â*Strange world.
But does add "$3,000 to $4,000" to get the Chicken Littles flapping
and clucking.

Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned
water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is
now way too small, because it was sized for both the
water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the
issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that
is not entirely contained within the heated part of the
house, condensation occurs because the gases now
cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the
chimney was kept warm enough so that this would
not happen. And that condensation, over time, will
destroy the mortar in a chimney.



Yabbut...winter or summer a water heater will run into a cold chimney.
And so will the furnace. Chimneys cool off fast in winter.
That's why there are few unlined chimneys left.
Talking about NG only. Haven't had coal or oil in decades.
Condensation talk is to sell liners to those who don't have them,
or to now sell a hi-efficiency water heater with a dedicated vent.
You still see the salesmen and cracker-barrel "experts" using the
"orphaned" water heater draft argument, but when people realize the WH
was always an orphan, they turn to the acid argument.
Anyway, "$3,000 to $4,000" is a BS number.
A typical SS liner is WAY less than "$3,000 to $4,000."
And so is a typical high-efficiency HW tank with a dedicated vent.
DISCLAIMER: Chimney condition is important for your safety, and the
above isn't meant to suggest otherwise. If you don't know your
chimney is in good condition, have it examined by a professional.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:09:11 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



Yep. *As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the market is incapable of innovation, then how
exactly do you explain the cell phone, PC, cordless drill,
and all the other items that have a long history of innovation
that has driven cost down, increased features, etc?

There are differences. The marketplace needs innovation that can be
seen. Take a poll and I bet 95% would choose a Smart phone over a Cat
converter in their car.

Your new car sir, is going to cost you $30,000. You have a choice
though, it can have the whiz-bang super stereo with Bluetooth or it
can have seat belts. What is your choice, you can't have both. How
many would take the seat belts? After all, I'm not going to get into
an accident, they are for the other guy.

Take that a step further to housing. What is going to move a new
house faster, granite counter tops and minimal insulation or bland
Formica countertops and super energy efficiency? For the exact same
price, the choice is . . . .

wrote in message ...

I never said it was. And venting it out a side wall is the
most used option. But I was responding to those who implied
that the existing chimney is a viable alternative for routing the
PVC pipes. From all that I see and know, it's typically not an
option at all.....

There is significant variation between manufacturers and even models
But 3 elbows and Something like 65' or so. 8 elbows may only get you down to 40" not 35
The install manuals I've read cover using existing unused chimney as a option





As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for
almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase.


Go take a look at the install manual for a typical gas furnace.
It's very specific, requires the PVC pipes to be supported every
4 ft. No exceptions for a 30 ft run up a chimney. Have you ever
seen a PVC pipe run of any kind the length
of an entire chimney that isn't supported every few feet along
it's run? One that passed a plumbing inspection that is?

it very well specific as in Horizontal runs of vent/flue piping must be supported
also
"The vent can also be run through an existing unused chimney; however,
it must extend a minimum of 12 inches above the top of the
chimney. The space between the vent pipe and the chimney must
be closed with a weather-tight, corrosion-resistant flashing"
Not the best choice But yes it can be done but it's a lot trickier to get right

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 07:49:45 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I havn't known that to be a problem. The condensate does tend to be strongly
acidic. I put in a 90 percenter in my own home, I think it was year 2004. It
has been repaired once since then. The draft inducer fan went dead, and I
had to go buy another one.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
They make limestone neutralizers for the discharge.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 07:53:22 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

SRN wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
wrote:

Arrant nonsense. The higher the demand, the lower the price. That is
if the government stays out of the way.


No, that is utter nonsense and violates the law of supply & demand.
The higher the SUPPLY, with a constant demand, the LOWER the price.

You're right - I phrased that inelegantly.

I should have said "The higher the demand, the greater the supply which will
drive down prices.

Unless the supply is limitted - either naturally or artificially.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:00:29 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Nov 24, 7:32Â*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:



On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arent that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

My old natural draft was running about 80% - my new forced draft non
condensing is about 85% - 88% on low fire. Virtually NO difference in
fuel consumption between them - lower electrical consumption from DC
blower motor - the heat NOT generated by the blower now has to be made
up by the gas - pretty effectively cancelling out the minor efficiency
improvement.

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. Â*Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.

Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:16:55 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:


Not a strange world. Â* Â*The issue is that an orphaned
water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is
now way too small, because it was sized for both the
water heater and a gas furnace. Â*Drafting is NOT the
issue. Â*Condensation is. Â* In the winter in a chimney that
is not entirely contained within the heated part of the
house, condensation occurs because the gases now
cool off too much. Â* With a furnace also running, the
chimney was kept warm enough so that this would
not happen. Â* And that condensation, over time, will
destroy the mortar in a chimney.

around here in pittsburgh the furnace typically used one flue a
seperate flue for the water heater.

after all for a large part of the year the furnace would rarely if
ever run..

in pittsburgh late april till mid october///

But untill the furnace was required, the stack temperature was also
reasonable due to just the natural draft in the non-damped chimney.
The problem comes when the stack is down around zero and the exhaust
from the WH is not warm enough to cause a good draft - and you get CO
poisoning in the house.

and its not a biggie to cut a hole in a concrete wall or block wall
despite what some people think, direct vent is way better.......

overreaction to safety and efficency rules is just that
overreaction...

i suggest to those people bothered by this that most rules are
reasonable.

Take the NEC, we all benefit from safer and more efficent electrical
systems, safer vehicles with better gas mileage etc etc

If your current yearly heating bill is $1000 and you have an 80%
efficient furnace,

$800 is used for heat and $200 is wasted out the exhaust.



With a 95% efficient furnace,

$800 is still used for heat but only $42 is wasted out the exhaust.


Your yearly heat bill drops to $842 yielding a $158 per year savings.

Over the next 15 years you'll save $2370 in fuel. If fuel prices go up,
you'll save even more.

Can you really afford an 80% efficient furnace?

Sorry to hear that ladder is going to be aches and pains for you. I'd offer
to help out, but it's a bit too much drive. Glad you're still taking care of
old folks.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

That darn Honeywell Smart Gas Valve has the electronics in it for the
hot surface igniter, flame sensor, pilot and main gas valve control.
It's an expensive gas valve. Most places sell them for $230-$250 but
my buddy at the supply house let me have one for a total of $165.00.
I gave it to the old gal at cost. I can't imagine what the shinny new
truck service company would charge her for it. The next day, me and JH
were in Columbus, Mississippi installing a couple of 42" data displays
in a large retail store. Each one took two Cat 6 cable runs back to the
data rack in the office where we hooked them up and got them going.
Monday, I have to go to another retail store and extend a T1 demarc for
a new VPN connection. I'll have to do some ladder climbing and that's
going to hurt like hell. O_o

TDD

On 11/25/2012 10:18 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect
for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all



But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article
in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would
handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?)
the much higher installation costs.


I've never needed to rent a crane to install 4" PVC pipe. ^_^

TDD

On 11/25/2012 5:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Sorry to hear that ladder is going to be aches and pains for you. I'd offer
to help out, but it's a bit too much drive. Glad you're still taking care of
old folks.


Me and JH hire a 19 year old neighbor as a wire pulling monkey, he can
climb around as well as I could at that age. ^_^

TDD

That's how it's supposed to work. You got the brains, and he's climbing the
ladders.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 11/25/2012 5:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Sorry to hear that ladder is going to be aches and pains for you. I'd
offer
to help out, but it's a bit too much drive. Glad you're still taking care
of
old folks.


Me and JH hire a 19 year old neighbor as a wire pulling monkey, he can
climb around as well as I could at that age. ^_^

TDD

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:18:42 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces arent that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all


But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article
in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would
handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?)
the much higher installation costs.
30 feet is not a problem with the existing units up here.

On 25 Nov 2012 21:40:47 GMT, Normin wrote:


If your current yearly heating bill is $1000 and you have an 80%
efficient furnace,

$800 is used for heat and $200 is wasted out the exhaust.



With a 95% efficient furnace,

$800 is still used for heat but only $42 is wasted out the exhaust.


Your yearly heat bill drops to $842 yielding a $158 per year savings.

Over the next 15 years you'll save $2370 in fuel. If fuel prices go up,
you'll save even more.

Can you really afford an 80% efficient furnace?

My situation is a bit different. I'm heating with oil and you don't
get quite as efficient, but very close anyway.

My oil fired boiler was 30 years old. It was getting close to needing
major work or replacement. Anything I put in would have been a bit
more efficient, but I went with a System 2000 by Energy Kinetics.

I have a good record of my fuel use and it average about 800 gallons a
year, sometimes a bit more. My savings with the new unit is about 320
gallons a year. My out of pocket cost to replace was about $6000. The
math is pretty simple. At the price of oil 30 years ago, it would
take me 25 years to get a payback. The price of oil though, went up a
tad in recent years. The payback is now 5 years. After the 5 years,
I'm saving about $1200 a year. I have more hot water, a quieter
system and saving a bunch of money. IMO, you are crazy not to replace
an old heater. Sure, gas is cheaper, but using less is still a good
thing. Run the numbers. .

On Nov 25, 1:05*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:09:11 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the market is incapable of innovation, then how
exactly do you explain the cell phone, PC, cordless drill,
and all the other items that have a long history of innovation
that has driven cost down, increased features, etc?

There are differences. *The marketplace needs innovation that can be
seen. *Take a poll and I bet 95% would choose a Smart phone over a Cat
converter in their car.


You can't see a difference in your energy bill? When I
replaced my 25 year old furnace, my energy bill was cut
by almost half.

On Nov 25, 4:40*pm, Normin wrote:
If your current yearly heating bill is $1000 and you have an 80%
efficient furnace,

$800 is used for heat and $200 is wasted out the exhaust.

With a 95% efficient furnace,

$800 is still used for heat but only $42 is wasted out the exhaust.

Your yearly heat bill drops to $842 yielding a $158 per year savings.

Over the next 15 years you'll save $2370 in fuel. *If fuel prices go up,
you'll save even more.

Can you really afford an 80% efficient furnace?

I think the obvious example to that question, is yes indeed,
not only can you afford the 80% furnace, but it costs less.
The 80% furnace is already paid for. The new furnace is going
to cost significantly MORE than the $2,370 in fuel saved. Factor
in the time value of money and it looks even worse. Plus from
what we hear all the time here and from what I've seen
personally, 15 years is about the life expectancy of the new
furnaces. I've had friends who have replaced them at less
than that. So, why pay for a new furnace today when even
if it lasts 15 years, you're better off paying for the $2,370 in
fuel?

On Nov 25, 12:23*pm, Vic Smith
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 04:28:18 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Nov 24, 4:56*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
This is the best part of the posted article.

"There’s still another concern — and another possible cost — if a home
has a standard 40- or 50-gallon gas water heater. Those heaters are
generally vented through the chimney along with the older furnaces.
But after removing the old furnace venting pipe, there is not enough
heat generated in the chimney by the water heater venting pipe alone
to prevent condensation from occurring. And that condensation will
include sulfuric acid, which can eat away at a chimney’s mortar
joints. Re-venting the water heater could increase the total cost of
the new furnace project by $3,000 to $4,000, Baum said."

So in that world gas furnaces run winter and summer to provide draft
for the water heater. *Strange world.
But does add "$3,000 to $4,000" to get the Chicken Littles flapping
and clucking.

Not a strange world. * *The issue is that an orphaned
water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is
now way too small, because it was sized for both the
water heater and a gas furnace. *Drafting is NOT the
issue. *Condensation is. * In the winter in a chimney that
is not entirely contained within the heated part of the
house, condensation occurs because the gases now
cool off too much. * With a furnace also running, the
chimney was kept warm enough so that this would
not happen. * And that condensation, over time, will
destroy the mortar in a chimney.

Yabbut...winter or summer a water heater will run into a cold chimney.

Geez, do you see condensation around the inside of
windows in summer or winter? It happens 99% of the
time in WINTER because of the colder temps. Water
vapor plus COLD equals condesation. In the summer
the part of a chimney that runs outside the heated area
of a house could easily be 20F. In summer, it's 65 or
75.



And so will the furnace.

If you run your gas furnace in summer, you're doing
something wrong.



*Chimneys cool off fast in winter.
That's why there are few unlined chimneys left.
Talking about NG only. *Haven't had coal or oil in decades.
Condensation talk is to sell liners to those who don't have them,
or to now sell a hi-efficiency water heater with a dedicated vent.

You're obviously an idiot. Condensation is a real issue.
There are codes that specify the size of a chimney for the
particular appliance. You can't just vent any size appliance
into any size chimney. There is a max size allowed.
It's like saying the issue of putting a 20 amp breaker
on 14 gauge wire is just to sell breakers.



You still see the salesmen and cracker-barrel "experts" using the
"orphaned" water heater draft argument, but when people realize the WH
was always an orphan, they turn to the acid argument.

Again, it's only an issue in WINTER in cold climates.
How do you get steam to condense? You COOL it off.
With a chimney that supported both a furnace and a water
heater, the furnace ran in the winter, keeping the chimney
warm enough so that condensation was not a problem.
With an orphaned water heater going into a LARGE
chimney that was sized for both a furnace and a water
heater, the exhaust from the water heater will easily
condense in winter because it's moving slowly
through a very large chimney. A chimney that is no
longer sized correctly for either draft or condensation
issues.


Anyway, "$3,000 to $4,000" is a BS number.
A typical SS liner is WAY less than "$3,000 to $4,000."

That part I agree with.



And so is a typical high-efficiency HW tank with a dedicated vent.

That's certainly true for the typical case. But we aren't
talking just the typical case. The articles point was that there
are cases out there that are NOt the typical case. Yet
the govt is saying, "Screw you, you have no choice"
In other words, it's using BS numbers, ie saving 20% in
total heating energy costs across all homes, to justify
forcing something down onto the public to fix a non-existent
problem.



DISCLAIMER: Chimney condition is important for your safety, and the
above isn't meant to suggest otherwise. *If you don't know your
chimney is in good condition, have it examined by a professional.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good idea, since like usual, you have no idea what
you're talking about.

On Nov 25, 1:07*pm, "spud42" wrote:
wrote in ...
I never said it was. *And venting it out a side wall is the
most used option. * But I was responding to those who implied
that the existing chimney is a viable alternative for routing the
PVC pipes. *From all that I see and know, it's typically not an
option at all.....

There is significant variation between manufacturers and even models
But 3 elbows and Something like 65' or so. *8 elbows may only get you down to 40" not 35
The install manuals I've read cover using existing unused chimney as a option

As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for
almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase.
Go take a look at the install manual for a typical gas furnace.
It's very specific, requires the PVC pipes to be supported every
4 ft. *No exceptions for a 30 ft run up a chimney. *Have you ever
seen a PVC pipe run of any kind the length
of an entire chimney that isn't supported every few feet along
it's run? * One that passed a plumbing inspection that is?

it very well specific as in Horizontal runs of vent/flue piping must be supported
also
"The vent can also be run through an existing unused chimney; however,
it must extend a minimum of 12 inches above the top of the
chimney. The space between the vent pipe and the chimney must
be closed with a weather-tight, corrosion-resistant flashing"
Not the best choice But yes it can be done but it's a lot trickier to get right

Link for where that came from?

On 11/26/2012 8:03 AM, wrote:
On Nov 25, 1:05 pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:09:11 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the market is incapable of innovation, then how
exactly do you explain the cell phone, PC, cordless drill,
and all the other items that have a long history of innovation
that has driven cost down, increased features, etc?

There are differences. The marketplace needs innovation that can be
seen. Take a poll and I bet 95% would choose a Smart phone over a Cat
converter in their car.


You can't see a difference in your energy bill? When I
replaced my 25 year old furnace, my energy bill was cut
by almost half.





I have multiple family members and friends in various aspects of housing
and Ed is right on target. They say they have been asked about leaving
out insulation or forget about that higher efficiency furnace in favor
of getting bragging rights for that granite countertop.

On 11/25/2012 4:40 PM, Normin wrote:

If your current yearly heating bill is $1000 and you have an 80%
efficient furnace,

$800 is used for heat and $200 is wasted out the exhaust.



With a 95% efficient furnace,

$800 is still used for heat but only $42 is wasted out the exhaust.


Your yearly heat bill drops to $842 yielding a $158 per year savings.

Over the next 15 years you'll save $2370 in fuel. If fuel prices go up,
you'll save even more.

Can you really afford an 80% efficient furnace?


Of course not but what bragging rights do you acquire by making a
sensible decision?

On 11/25/2012 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Nov 25, 11:00 am, Harry K wrote:
On Nov 24, 7:32 am, mike wrote:





On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:

On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.

Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the market is incapable of innovation, then how
exactly do you explain the cell phone, PC, cordless drill,
and all the other items that have a long history of innovation
that has driven cost down, increased features, etc?


But stuff like safety features and fuel economy are proven not to be big
selling points. Take a pickup truck frame and fluff it up with every
possible feature and a huge engine and it sells itself because of the
imagined status.

On 11/25/2012 1:06 PM, spud42 wrote:

wrote in message ...

I never said it was. And venting it out a side wall is the
most used option. But I was responding to those who implied
that the existing chimney is a viable alternative for routing the
PVC pipes. From all that I see and know, it's typically not an
option at all.....

There is significant variation between manufacturers and even models
But 3 elbows and Something like 65' or so. 8 elbows may only get you down to 40" not 35
The install manuals I've read cover using existing unused chimney as a option





As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for
almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase.


Go take a look at the install manual for a typical gas furnace.
It's very specific, requires the PVC pipes to be supported every
4 ft. No exceptions for a 30 ft run up a chimney. Have you ever
seen a PVC pipe run of any kind the length
of an entire chimney that isn't supported every few feet along
it's run? One that passed a plumbing inspection that is?

it very well specific as in Horizontal runs of vent/flue piping must be supported
also
"The vent can also be run through an existing unused chimney; however,
it must extend a minimum of 12 inches above the top of the
chimney. The space between the vent pipe and the chimney must
be closed with a weather-tight, corrosion-resistant flashing"
Not the best choice But yes it can be done but it's a lot trickier to get right




I have seen a few chimneys with two PVC pipes protruding. One is a few
houses away and I took a better look earlier and can see a stainless cap
fitted.