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New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you get. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
"vents combustible gasses outside...."
============================= The new furnaces need two pipes — one that takes fresh air into the furnace so combustion can occur, and one that vents combustible gases outside the house. Generally, that venting pipe must extend through an outside wall of the home, which requires construction work. Most older furnaces vent through the chimney, but that doesn’t work for most higher efficiency furnaces. The old-model furnaces produced smoke warm enough to float up a chimney, Fertel said, but the higher efficient models produce cooler smoke, which needs to be forced out. ============================= Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Frank" wrote in message ... On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you get. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Nov 24, 8:45*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: "vents combustible gasses outside...." ============================= The new furnaces need two pipes one that takes fresh air into the furnace so combustion can occur, and one that vents combustible gases outside the house. Generally, that venting pipe must extend through an outside wall of the home, which requires construction work. Most older furnaces vent through the chimney, but that doesn t work for most higher efficiency furnaces. The old-model furnaces produced smoke warm enough to float up a chimney, Fertel said, but the higher efficient models produce cooler smoke, which needs to be forced out. ============================= Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "Frank" wrote in message ... On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg...may_make_repla... But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you get.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - LOL, good catch on those "combustible gases". The key issue here is how easy it is to get access to a suitable outside location where the intake and exhaust can be located. In a lot of houses it's easy. In some houses it can be very difficult. Still, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind in NJ replacing an existing furnace with one that is not a condensing, 90%+ model. If you get a 93% one for example, it's a substantial difference in energy usage that adds up over time. And forever is a very long time..... |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors, electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a regular efficiency furnace? but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline. Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting? |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Nov 24, 9:33*am, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors, electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a regular efficiency furnace? That's right, they are not much more expensive. but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline. Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting? Anyone who can read and comprehend understands that what that means is that similar EPA rules for minimum energy efficiency will apply to states in southern climates. They are applying rules for furnaces where it's cold and rules for AC where it's hot, because that's where the most energy is used. Really simple concepts. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
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New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
" writes:
On Nov 24, 9:33Â*am, Home Guy wrote: HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arent that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway. This is the group filled with smart people that complain about every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not. Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now, our descendants can huddle together to stay warm. -- Dan Espen |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Nov 24, 9:32*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote: On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote: On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote: HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. ... Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's the biggie. Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably closer to 50% if early... While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates. -- I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude that many of us have. How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option? Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it. If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership. Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I remember when folks objected to the mandatory equipping of seat belts on new cars. I added seat belts to my first car, it had the reinforced anchor spots in the floor, you had to make a hole in the carpet to attach the seat belts. Folks thought I was strange to ruin a new car by adding seat belts. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^ TDD |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Nov 24, 10:19*am, dpb wrote:
On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote: On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home *wrote: HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. *Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. ... Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced draft as well. *It's the difference between them and natural draft that's the biggie. No, the difference is whether the replacement furnace can use the existing venting system of the natural draft furnace. And there are 80% efficiency furnaces that can be vented using the existing chimney, even though they use a draft blower. If it's a condensing, direct vent type, then it cannot use the existing chimney or vent system of the natural draft furnace. Hence the article, pointing out that you could be in for increased costs, depending on how easy or how hard it is to run the required PVC piping to a suitable outside location. Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft... most old furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably closer to 50% if early... While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates. Yes, I agree. And those numbers the EPA is using to claim that this new rule will save 20% of the total energy use is pure BS. I live in NJ, which isn't the coldest place by a long shot and no one that I know of has installed less than a 90% furnace for years now. I went out for quotes myself two years ago and of 4 companies, not one even quoted less than a 90. You'd probably have to ask for one. And it would only make sense if you had some unique circumstance, where it was very expensive to be able to vent a 90% furnace. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Nov 24, 10:32*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote: On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote: On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote: HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. ... Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's the biggie. Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably closer to 50% if early... While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates. -- I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude that many of us have. How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option? Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it. If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership. Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I live in NJ and while I know a few people with new furnaces, I don't know anyone who has installed less than a 90% one for years now. When I went out for quotes on a new furnace two years ago, not one of the 4 even suggested or quoted anything less than 90%. Take a look at the eqpt cost and a 90%+ furnace is about the same price. And most of them can be installed without a big cost increase. There are some pathological cases where venting is a problem and that is exactly why leaving this alone would have been the right thing to do. The few folks who continue to put in 80% are not going to amount to much in the grand scheme of things, the phoney EPA numbers are a lie. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Nov 24, 10:22*am, Dan Espen wrote:
" writes: On Nov 24, 9:33*am, Home Guy wrote: HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. *Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway. This is the group filled with smart people that complain about every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not. Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now, our descendants can huddle together to stay warm. -- Dan Espen- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Some of us just believe that it's not governments job to force us into a particular way of living by coming up with phoney BS stories. The EPA would have you believe that this is going to save 20% in energy costs? You believe that? Virtually no one here in NJ has been installing anything less than a 90% furnace for years now. And we don't have the coldest climate or highest heating bills. This is another sad example of the govt force feeding the public, which they believe is too stupid to act in their own best interests. A tiny percentage of people living in cold climates would choose an 80% furnace moving forward. And some of them, probably have very good reasons if they are doing it. In other words, this is a non-existent, fake, phoney, BS problem. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ve-723122-.htm
DA wrote: HeyBub wrote: The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ... Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there. I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free. -- /\_/\ ((@v@)) NIGHT ():::() OWL VV-VV |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
First of all, leaving it up to 'the market' isn't going to reduce pollution nor do much for energy efficiency. People aren't 100% logical and tend not to look at the long-run costs of things- whether it's gas mileage, home energy consumption (heating, A/C, electricity usage in appliances) or even insurance costs (how many people, when deciding between two cars, call their ins co and ask the difference?).
And the more energy you use, the more it costs all of us. That's why the gov't is making these rules. I put in a 90% efficient heating unit two years ago and it's made a world of difference in heating costs. It wasn't that big a deal to run a pipe across ten feet of basement and put it through a wall to vent to the outside. And in my case I didn't need the flue anymore so I tore it out and got myself another couple of square feet of usable floor space on two floors. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
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New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 07:31:53 -0800, mike wrote:
-- I'd agree in principle. Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude that many of us have. How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option? Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it. If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership. Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate. I resisted replacing my oil fired boiler for a year, but finally took the plunge a couple of years ago. Just on the last oil delivery a few days ago, I save $700 so far this year over what my old boiler would have burned. Well worth the upgrade. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
wrote: On Nov 24, 8:45 am, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: "vents combustible gasses outside...." ============================= The new furnaces need two pipes one that takes fresh air into the furnace so combustion can occur, and one that vents combustible gases outside the house. Generally, that venting pipe must extend through an outside wall of the home, which requires construction work. Most older furnaces vent through the chimney, but that doesn t work for most higher efficiency furnaces. The old-model furnaces produced smoke warm enough to float up a chimney, Fertel said, but the higher efficient models produce cooler smoke, which needs to be forced out. ============================= Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Frank" wrote in message ... On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg...may_make_repla... But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you get.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - LOL, good catch on those "combustible gases". The key issue here is how easy it is to get access to a suitable outside location where the intake and exhaust can be located. In a lot of houses it's easy. In some houses it can be very difficult. Still, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind in NJ replacing an existing furnace with one that is not a condensing, 90%+ model. If you get a 93% one for example, it's a substantial difference in energy usage that adds up over time. And forever is a very long time..... Hi, I had to core the concrete basement wall for new vent pipe. And condensate drain plumbing with PVC pipes for 98% efficiency furnace which replaced mid-efficiency ~20 year old one. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
Anyone who can read and comprehend understands that what that means is that similar EPA rules for minimum energy efficiency will apply to states in southern climates. They are applying rules for furnaces where it's cold and rules for AC where it's hot, because that's where the most energy is used. Really simple concepts. Hi, This is no brainer. Higher efficiency furnaces and higher SEER a/c units. I got digned pretty bad when I upgraded ~20 yo system during summer time. 98% efficiency furnace, 18SEER a/c and HRV box, wireless thermostat, etc. I had to cancel my summer vacation to pay for it, LOL! Utility bill shows slight barely noticeable power and gas savings. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
The Daring Dufas wrote: On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^ TDD Hi, Exactly! |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On 11-24-2012 09:36, Home Guy wrote:
If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline. Did you read the date of the article? That deadline hasn't happened yet. -- Wes Groleau Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
You think so? Me, too.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... The few folks who continue to put in 80% are not going to amount to much in the grand scheme of things, the phoney EPA numbers are a lie. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
" writes:
On Nov 24, 10:22Â*am, Dan Espen wrote: " writes: On Nov 24, 9:33Â*am, Home Guy wrote: HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arent that much more expensive themselves, Really? Yes, really. Â*Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot of money. Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway. This is the group filled with smart people that complain about every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not. Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now, our descendants can huddle together to stay warm. Some of us just believe that it's not governments job to force us into a particular way of living by coming up with phoney BS stories. The EPA would have you believe that this is going to save 20% in energy costs? You believe that? Virtually no one here in NJ has been installing anything less than a 90% furnace for years now. And we don't have the coldest climate or highest heating bills. This is another sad example of the govt force feeding the public, which they believe is too stupid to act in their own best interests. The EPA would have us believe that going from 80% to 90% is a 20% savings? Are you sure? Might be time to introduce some facts into this thread. Looked around. Doesn't look to me like S.398 has been passed. What do you think? Check this out: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s398/money A tiny percentage of people living in cold climates would choose an 80% furnace moving forward. And some of them, probably have very good reasons if they are doing it. In other words, this is a non-existent, fake, phoney, BS problem. Yep, in this news group, all regulations are phony because the posters are so smart. -- Dan Espen |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
Home Guy wrote:
Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting? Idiot. The issue is about the higher costs of more efficient heating/cooling systems. Issues regarding venting are only the effect, not the cause, of the increased cost. This article came from a New Jersey news source and in New Jersey they are more concerned with heating than air conditioning. Had a similar article been written for Atlanta, the writers would have dwelled on a/c costs with only a passing mention of heating systems. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
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New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On 11/24/2012 11:44 AM, DA wrote:
responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ve-723122-.htm DA wrote: HeyBub wrote: The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ... Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there. I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free. But that is sensible reasoning that doesn't flow with the normal heybub drama... |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On 11/24/2012 11:39 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote: On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ..." Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates. http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN ! Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^ TDD Hi, Exactly! I did a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB but most of the work I do now is commercial. A few weeks ago I did get a call from a little 90 year old lady who was a customer of mine and GB's to come out and fix her furnace. ^_^ TDD |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:28:59 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote: wrote: First of all, leaving it up to 'the market' isn't going to reduce pollution nor do much for energy efficiency. People aren't 100% logical and tend not to look at the long-run costs of things- whether it's gas mileage, home energy consumption (heating, A/C, electricity usage in appliances) or even insurance costs (how many people, when deciding between two cars, call their ins co and ask the difference?). Or, it could be they have more provident uses for their meager sums - such as food. And the more energy you use, the more it costs all of us. That's why the gov't is making these rules. Arrant nonsense. The higher the demand, the lower the price. That is if the government stays out of the way. I put in a 90% efficient heating unit two years ago and it's made a world of difference in heating costs. It wasn't that big a deal to run a pipe across ten feet of basement and put it through a wall to vent to the outside. Bully! How would you feel if the government, in its infinite wisdom, PROHIBITED you from a more efficient system? It's exactly the same concept. Exactly the same. Right. Up is down, Mr. Orwell. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:25:48 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote: Yep, in this news group, all regulations are phony because the posters are so smart. Yeah, pretty much. Used to be able to burn leaves. Not now. Have to pay for front end loaders and dump trucks to haul them away. R-12. Catalytic converters. CFL's. No smoking in hospitals. On and on and on. This is the best part of the posted article. "Theres still another concern €” and another possible cost €” if a home has a standard 40- or 50-gallon gas water heater. Those heaters are generally vented through the chimney along with the older furnaces. But after removing the old furnace venting pipe, there is not enough heat generated in the chimney by the water heater venting pipe alone to prevent condensation from occurring. And that condensation will include sulfuric acid, which can eat away at a chimneys mortar joints. Re-venting the water heater could increase the total cost of the new furnace project by $3,000 to $4,000, Baum said." So in that world gas furnaces run winter and summer to provide draft for the water heater. Strange world. But does add "$3,000 to $4,000" to get the Chicken Littles flapping and clucking. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
Don't keep us in suspense. What did the
furnace need, and did she feed you cookies? Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "The Daring Dufas" wrote in message news:k8rcro$3r2 I did a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB but most of the work I do now is commercial. A few weeks ago I did get a call from a little 90 year old lady who was a customer of mine and GB's to come out and fix her furnace. ^_^ TDD |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:36:30 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote: "Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey. Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be prohibited - right? The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, Really? Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors, electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a regular efficiency furnace? What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
Ashton Crusher wrote:
What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before. Modern household furnaces are classified as condensing or non-condensing based on their efficiency in extracting heat from the exhaust gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furnace |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
"HeyBub" wrote in message m... wrote: Arrant nonsense. The higher the demand, the lower the price. That is if the government stays out of the way. No, that is utter nonsense and violates the law of supply & demand. The higher the SUPPLY, with a constant demand, the LOWER the price. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 16:44:01 +0000, DA
wrote: responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ve-723122-.htm DA wrote: HeyBub wrote: The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arent that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically ... Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there. I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free. Hopefully the NEW 95%+ furnaces last longer than the ones sold as little as 7 or 8 years ago. I went for the highest efficiency non condensing furnace I could buy when I replaced mine 9 years ago after my brother replaced his new condensing furnace after less than 2 years due to repetative expensive failures. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:46:28 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote: On 11-24-2012 09:36, Home Guy wrote: If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline. Did you read the date of the article? That deadline hasn't happened yet. The deadline is long past up here in Ontario. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water
vapor. If you can condense some of that steam back to water, you can get more heat from the fire. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ashton Crusher" wrote in message ... Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors, electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a regular efficiency furnace? What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On 11/24/2012 5:24 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't keep us in suspense. What did the furnace need, and did she feed you cookies? I had repaired her furnace a year or two back after GB died when her basement flooded and destroyed the control board. Some moron from another service company had bypassed the flame roll-out switch which resulted it the wiring harness being burned up. Repairing the wiring and replacing the board had it running for at least a year but a few weeks ago the furnace quit and I found that a delayed reaction with moisture had damaged the circuit board in the Honeywell Smart Gas Valve. I replaced the gas valve and everything was back to working as normal. Me and GB had pumped out her basement several years ago and replaced the sump pump, check valve and pipes. The later flood happened due to a power outage during a heavy rain. Now I'm checking into a backup sump pump solution for her. I'm going to take care of the elderly customers as best I can because some jerk is going to show up and rip them off. My late friend GB and me helped out a lot of older folks and last week I was over at his 78 year old sister's place fixing her tankless water heater. Now I have to put together a kit to clean tankless water heaters. ^_^ TDD |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
Doesn't that eventually leave you with an icky sticky gummy residue?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:46:14 -0500, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water vapor. If you can condense some of that steam back to water, you can get more heat from the fire. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Ashton Crusher" wrote in message .. . Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors, electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a regular efficiency furnace? What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before. |
New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:37:30 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote: Doesn't that eventually leave you with an icky sticky gummy residue? Nope. NG is very clean and water is well, water. |
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