"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all

But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !

On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all

But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you
get.

"vents combustible gasses outside...."
=============================
The new furnaces need two pipes — one that takes fresh air into the furnace
so combustion can occur, and one that vents combustible gases outside the
house. Generally, that venting pipe must extend through an outside wall of
the home, which requires construction work. Most older furnaces vent through
the chimney, but that doesn’t work for most higher efficiency furnaces. The
old-model furnaces produced smoke warm enough to float up a chimney, Fertel
said, but the higher efficient models produce cooler smoke, which needs to
be forced out.
=============================
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Frank" wrote in message
...
On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural
gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all

But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you
get.

On Nov 24, 8:45*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
"vents combustible gasses outside...."
=============================
The new furnaces need two pipes one that takes fresh air into the furnace
so combustion can occur, and one that vents combustible gases outside the
house. Generally, that venting pipe must extend through an outside wall of
the home, which requires construction work. Most older furnaces vent through
the chimney, but that doesn t work for most higher efficiency furnaces. The
old-model furnaces produced smoke warm enough to float up a chimney, Fertel
said, but the higher efficient models produce cooler smoke, which needs to
be forced out.
=============================
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Frank" wrote in message

...
On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:





"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural
gas
furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg...may_make_repla...

But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !

Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you
get.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


LOL, good catch on those "combustible gases".

The key issue here is how easy it is to get access to a
suitable outside location where the intake and exhaust can
be located. In a lot of houses it's easy. In some houses
it can be very difficult. Still, I can't imagine anyone in
their right mind in NJ replacing an existing furnace with
one that is not a condensing, 90%+ model. If you get
a 93% one for example, it's a substantial difference in
energy usage that adds up over time. And forever is
a very long time.....

wrote:
On Nov 24, 8:45 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
"vents combustible gasses outside...."
=============================
The new furnaces need two pipes one that takes fresh air into the furnace
so combustion can occur, and one that vents combustible gases outside the
house. Generally, that venting pipe must extend through an outside wall of
the home, which requires construction work. Most older furnaces vent through
the chimney, but that doesn t work for most higher efficiency furnaces. The
old-model furnaces produced smoke warm enough to float up a chimney, Fertel
said, but the higher efficient models produce cooler smoke, which needs to
be forced out.
=============================
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Frank" wrote in message

...
On 11/24/2012 8:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:





"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural
gas
furnaces aren t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg...may_make_repla...

But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !

Leave technical requirements to the politicians and this is the crap you
get.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


LOL, good catch on those "combustible gases".

The key issue here is how easy it is to get access to a
suitable outside location where the intake and exhaust can
be located. In a lot of houses it's easy. In some houses
it can be very difficult. Still, I can't imagine anyone in
their right mind in NJ replacing an existing furnace with
one that is not a condensing, 90%+ model. If you get
a 93% one for example, it's a substantial difference in
energy usage that adds up over time. And forever is
a very long time.....

Hi,
I had to core the concrete basement wall for new vent pipe.
And condensate drain plumbing with PVC pipes for 98% efficiency
furnace which replaced mid-efficiency ~20 year old one.

HeyBub wrote:

"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?

but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than
through the chimney, which can increase installation costs
dramatically ..."

If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency
furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline.

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting?

On Nov 24, 9:33*am, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.




Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?

That's right, they are not much more expensive.




but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than
through the chimney, which can increase installation costs
dramatically ..."

If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency
furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline.

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting?


Anyone who can read and comprehend understands that
what that means is that similar EPA rules for minimum energy
efficiency will apply to states in southern climates. They
are applying rules for furnaces where it's cold and rules for
AC where it's hot, because that's where the most energy
is used. Really simple concepts.

On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
....

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft
that's the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:
On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--
I'd agree in principle. Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.

On Nov 24, 9:32*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:



On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I remember when folks objected to the mandatory equipping of seat
belts on new cars. I added seat belts to my first car, it had the
reinforced anchor spots in the floor, you had to make a hole in the
carpet to attach the seat belts. Folks thought I was strange to ruin
a new car by adding seat belts.

On Nov 24, 10:32*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:



On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I live in NJ and while I know a few people with new furnaces,
I don't know anyone who has installed less than a 90% one
for years now. When I went out for quotes on a new furnace
two years ago, not one of the 4 even suggested or quoted
anything less than 90%. Take a look at the eqpt cost and
a 90%+ furnace is about the same price. And most of them
can be installed without a big cost increase. There are some
pathological cases where venting is a problem and that is
exactly why leaving this alone would have been the right thing
to do. The few folks who continue to put in 80% are not
going to amount to much in the grand scheme of things, the
phoney EPA numbers are a lie.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 07:31:53 -0800, mike wrote:



--
I'd agree in principle. Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.


I resisted replacing my oil fired boiler for a year, but finally took
the plunge a couple of years ago. Just on the last oil delivery a few
days ago, I save $700 so far this year over what my old boiler would
have burned. Well worth the upgrade.

On Nov 24, 7:32*am, mike wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:18 AM, dpb wrote:



On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.
...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. It's the difference between them and natural draft that's
the biggie.

Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.

--

I'd agree in principle. *Problem is the short-sighted cheapskate attitude
that many of us have.
How many cars would have somog abatement if it was a luxury option?
Sometimes, you just gotta bite the bullet and force it.
If you don't like the way your leadership operates, elect new leadership.

Goods as durable as houses outlast the original cheapskate.

Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we
would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety
equipment.

Harry K

On Nov 24, 10:19*am, dpb wrote:
On 11/24/2012 8:46 AM, wrote:



On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home *wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. *Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.

...

Well, that's not the difference that is significant--80% requires forced
draft as well. *It's the difference between them and natural draft
that's the biggie.

No, the difference is whether the replacement furnace
can use the existing venting system of the natural draft
furnace. And there are 80% efficiency furnaces that can
be vented using the existing chimney, even though they
use a draft blower. If it's a condensing,
direct vent type, then it cannot use the existing chimney or
vent system of the natural draft furnace. Hence the article,
pointing out that you could be in for increased costs,
depending on how easy or how hard it is to run the
required PVC piping to a suitable outside location.




Old natural draft had up to about 78% efficiency ratings but beyond that
the condensation problem is insoluble w/o forced draft...

most old
furnaces were perhaps 65% or so if towards mid-later years and probably
closer to 50% if early...

While _a_good_thing_ (tm) overall to improve efficiency, I'm still of
the opinion that the market should control rather than mandates.


Yes, I agree. And those numbers the EPA is using to
claim that this new rule will save 20% of the total energy
use is pure BS. I live in NJ, which isn't the coldest place
by a long shot and no one that I know of has installed
less than a 90% furnace for years now. I went out for
quotes myself two years ago and of 4 companies,
not one even quoted less than a 90. You'd probably
have to ask for one. And it would only make sense if
you had some unique circumstance, where it was
very expensive to be able to vent a 90% furnace.

" writes:

On Nov 24, 9:33Â*am, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arent that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.

Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway.

This is the group filled with smart people that complain about
every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not.

Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now,
our descendants can huddle together to stay warm.

--
Dan Espen

On Nov 24, 10:22*am, Dan Espen wrote:
" writes:
On Nov 24, 9:33*am, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. *Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.

Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway.

This is the group filled with smart people that complain about
every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not.

Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now,
our descendants can huddle together to stay warm.

--
Dan Espen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of us just believe that it's not governments job to
force us into a particular way of living by coming up with
phoney BS stories. The EPA would have you believe that
this is going to save 20% in energy costs? You believe that?
Virtually no one here in NJ has been installing anything less
than a 90% furnace for years now. And we don't have the
coldest climate or highest heating bills. This is another
sad example of the govt force feeding the public, which
they believe is too stupid to act in their own best interests.

A tiny percentage of people living in cold climates would
choose an 80% furnace moving forward. And some of
them, probably have very good reasons if they are doing
it. In other words, this is a non-existent, fake, phoney,
BS problem.

On 11/24/2012 11:29 AM, wrote:
On Nov 24, 10:22 am, Dan Espen wrote:
" writes:
On Nov 24, 9:33 am, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.

Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway.

This is the group filled with smart people that complain about
every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not.

Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now,
our descendants can huddle together to stay warm.

--
Dan Espen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of us just believe that it's not governments job to
force us into a particular way of living by coming up with
phoney BS stories. The EPA would have you believe that
this is going to save 20% in energy costs? You believe that?
Virtually no one here in NJ has been installing anything less
than a 90% furnace for years now. And we don't have the
coldest climate or highest heating bills. This is another
sad example of the govt force feeding the public, which
they believe is too stupid to act in their own best interests.

A tiny percentage of people living in cold climates would
choose an 80% furnace moving forward. And some of
them, probably have very good reasons if they are doing
it. In other words, this is a non-existent, fake, phoney,
BS problem.


It's the "one size fits all" aspect of government rules that are
stifling us. As energy becomes more expensive it will naturally drive
us to use more cost efficient units. We don't need it rammed down our
throats.

" writes:

On Nov 24, 10:22Â*am, Dan Espen wrote:
" writes:
On Nov 24, 9:33Â*am, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arent that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Yes, really. Â*Unless you think $200 or $300 more for a
gas furnace that is 93% efficient instead of 80% is a lot
of money.

Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway.

This is the group filled with smart people that complain about
every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not.

Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now,
our descendants can huddle together to stay warm.

Some of us just believe that it's not governments job to
force us into a particular way of living by coming up with
phoney BS stories. The EPA would have you believe that
this is going to save 20% in energy costs? You believe that?
Virtually no one here in NJ has been installing anything less
than a 90% furnace for years now. And we don't have the
coldest climate or highest heating bills. This is another
sad example of the govt force feeding the public, which
they believe is too stupid to act in their own best interests.

The EPA would have us believe that going from 80% to 90% is a 20%
savings? Are you sure?

Might be time to introduce some facts into this thread.

Looked around. Doesn't look to me like S.398 has been passed.
What do you think?

Check this out:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s398/money

A tiny percentage of people living in cold climates would
choose an 80% furnace moving forward. And some of
them, probably have very good reasons if they are doing
it. In other words, this is a non-existent, fake, phoney,
BS problem.

Yep, in this news group, all regulations are phony because the posters
are so smart.

--
Dan Espen

Anyone who can read and comprehend understands that
what that means is that similar EPA rules for minimum energy
efficiency will apply to states in southern climates. They
are applying rules for furnaces where it's cold and rules for
AC where it's hot, because that's where the most energy
is used. Really simple concepts.

Hi,
This is no brainer. Higher efficiency furnaces and higher SEER a/c
units. I got digned pretty bad when I upgraded ~20 yo system during
summer time. 98% efficiency furnace, 18SEER a/c and HRV box, wireless
thermostat, etc. I had to cancel my summer vacation to pay for it, LOL!
Utility bill shows slight barely noticeable power and gas savings.

On Nov 24, 12:37*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Anyone who can read and comprehend understands that
what that means is that similar EPA rules for minimum energy
efficiency will apply to states in southern climates. * They
are applying rules for furnaces where it's cold and rules for
AC where it's hot, because that's where the most energy
is used. *Really simple concepts.

Hi,
This is no brainer. Higher efficiency furnaces and higher SEER a/c
units. I got digned pretty bad when I upgraded ~20 yo system during
summer time. 98% efficiency furnace, 18SEER a/c and HRV box, wireless
thermostat, etc. I had to cancel my summer vacation to pay for it, LOL!
Utility bill shows slight barely noticeable power and gas savings.

What was the efficiency of the 20 year old system?
Having a barely noticeable energy savings on gas and
electric when replacing a system that old would seem
to be very unusual. I put in a new 93% gas furnace
and 14 SEER AC two years ago and the difference was
large. It cut my gas bill almost in half, summer AC by
about 30% or so.

On 11-24-2012 09:36, Home Guy wrote:
If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency
furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline.

Did you read the date of the article?
That deadline hasn't happened yet.

--
Wes Groleau

Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life
http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:46:28 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 11-24-2012 09:36, Home Guy wrote:
If this really is a headline story, then the sale of regular-efficiency
furnaces must have been pretty popular up until the May deadline.

Did you read the date of the article?
That deadline hasn't happened yet.
The deadline is long past up here in Ontario.

Home Guy wrote:
Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting?

Idiot.

The issue is about the higher costs of more efficient heating/cooling
systems.

Issues regarding venting are only the effect, not the cause, of the
increased cost.

This article came from a New Jersey news source and in New Jersey they are
more concerned with heating than air conditioning. Had a similar article
been written for Atlanta, the writers would have dwelled on a/c costs with
only a passing mention of heating systems.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:23:12 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Home Guy wrote:
Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

Why would an A/C system need any sort of venting?

Idiot.

The issue is about the higher costs of more efficient heating/cooling
systems.

Issues regarding venting are only the effect, not the cause, of the
increased cost.

This article came from a New Jersey news source and in New Jersey they are
more concerned with heating than air conditioning. Had a similar article
been written for Atlanta, the writers would have dwelled on a/c costs with
only a passing mention of heating systems.

Here in Atlanta, they're the same thing. ;-)

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:36:30 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

Ashton Crusher wrote:

What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

Modern household furnaces are classified as condensing or
non-condensing based on their efficiency in extracting heat
from the exhaust gases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furnace

Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water
vapor. If you can condense some of that steam
back to water, you can get more heat from the
fire.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

Doesn't that eventually leave you with an icky sticky gummy residue?

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:46:14 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water
vapor. If you can condense some of that steam
back to water, you can get more heat from the
fire.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
.. .

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:37:30 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

Doesn't that eventually leave you with an icky sticky gummy residue?

Nope. NG is very clean and water is well, water.

I havn't known that to be a problem. The condensate does tend to be strongly
acidic. I put in a 90 percenter in my own home, I think it was year 2004. It
has been repaired once since then. The draft inducer fan went dead, and I
had to go buy another one.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
Doesn't that eventually leave you with an icky sticky gummy residue?

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:46:14 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water
vapor. If you can condense some of that steam
back to water, you can get more heat from the
fire.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
.. .

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:36:30 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces arenÂ’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?


What's condensing in a furnace?? Never heard of that before.

The water in the flue gases.

The requirement for new gas boiler installations to be condensing types was
introduced in England+Wales back in 2005. However over here, there are
exemptions available if it is impractical (ie impossible or unreasonably
costly) to provide a flue for it - one of the more likely examples will be a
row of terraced houses with centrally positioned back-boilers (in a
fireplace) where the costs of moving all the plumbing to the front or back
walls would be unfeasible.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

On Nov 24, 7:10*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:36:30 -0500, Home Guy wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of
dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency
standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

Because the sale of single-stage (regular efficiency) furnaces will be
prohibited - right?

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much
more expensive themselves,

Really?

Condensing furnaces (with their extra heat exchanger, sensors,
electronics, condensate handler, etc) isin't much more expensive than a
regular efficiency furnace?

What's condensing in a furnace?? *Never heard of that before.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Water from the combustion gases when so much
heat is extracted the water can no longer remain
in the vapor phase.

On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all

But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all


But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD
Hi,
Exactly!

On 11/24/2012 11:39 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect
for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all



But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD
Hi,
Exactly!

I did a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB but most of
the work I do now is commercial. A few weeks ago I did get a call from a
little 90 year old lady who was a customer of mine and GB's to come out
and fix her furnace. ^_^

TDD

Don't keep us in suspense. What did the
furnace need, and did she feed you cookies?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
news:k8rcro$3r2

I did a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB but most of
the work I do now is commercial. A few weeks ago I did get a call from a
little 90 year old lady who was a customer of mine and GB's to come out
and fix her furnace. ^_^

TDD

On 11/24/2012 5:24 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't keep us in suspense. What did the
furnace need, and did she feed you cookies?



I had repaired her furnace a year or two back after GB died when her
basement flooded and destroyed the control board. Some moron from
another service company had bypassed the flame roll-out switch which
resulted it the wiring harness being burned up. Repairing the wiring
and replacing the board had it running for at least a year but a few
weeks ago the furnace quit and I found that a delayed reaction with
moisture had damaged the circuit board in the Honeywell Smart Gas Valve.
I replaced the gas valve and everything was back to working as normal.
Me and GB had pumped out her basement several years ago and replaced the
sump pump, check valve and pipes. The later flood happened due to a
power outage during a heavy rain. Now I'm checking into a backup sump
pump solution for her. I'm going to take care of the elderly customers
as best I can because some jerk is going to show up and rip them off. My
late friend GB and me helped out a lot of older folks and last week I
was over at his 78 year old sister's place fixing
her tankless water heater. Now I have to put together a kit to clean
tankless water heaters. ^_^

TDD

On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all


But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article
in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would
handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?)
the much higher installation costs.

On 11/25/2012 10:18 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect
for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all



But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article
in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would
handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?)
the much higher installation costs.


I've never needed to rent a crane to install 4" PVC pipe. ^_^

TDD

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:18:42 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:
"Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars
more
after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for
northern states, including New Jersey. The new energy-efficient
natural gas
furnaces arent that much more expensive themselves, but they must be
vented
directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can
increase installation costs dramatically ..."

Similar rules will latch in for A/C in the southern climates.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/berg....html?page=all


But, but, but ... it's for the CHILDREN !



Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been
involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the
exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power
vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that
water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through
the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^

TDD

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article
in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would
handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?)
the much higher installation costs.
30 feet is not a problem with the existing units up here.