aemeijers wrote:

It might be easier than you think. For example, if your state has
dozens of hoops, but has reciprocity with other states, a
non-resident permit from Utah or Florida may get you covered.

In what state do you live?

Consider this maxim: While ignorance of the law is no excuse,
ignorance of the facts is a perfect defense. If someone discovers a
gun in your car, you claim surprise and your wife says "Yeah, I put
the gun there. Hubert didn't know anything about it. What's it to
you, asshole?"

My workplace is a federal building. Unless you are carrying a badge,
weapons are prohibited, period. Like getting arrested and/or losing my
job prohibited. And that neighborhood is about the only place where I
(occasionally) have to go after dark, where a weapon would be
warranted. After hours, you have to park outside the perimeter and go
in through one door. I park under the light, in a spot where I know the
cameras
cover me all the way to the front door. I stay out of the nasty parts
of town pretty much, and have never felt at risk in the nicer parts
of town.

Ah, I understand. We who routinely carry a weapon have to undress to go into
a post office! Interestingly, in my state I can carry my weapon in the State
Capitol or even the governor's office.

About a year ago, we had a constituent leave his representative's office in
the capitol, walk out on the front steps, and go all Yosomite Sam, firing
shots in the air, hopping up and down, and yelling "Say your prayers,
varmit!". Studies were undertaken to protect the holy of holies. Now,
visitors to the capitol, constituents, Cub Scout troops, etc. are subjected
to scrutiny and metal detectors. There's a separate line for Concealed
Handgun License holders that skips all that. Amusingly, many media members
are getting a CHL to avoid the long lines for the general public.

"George" wrote in message
...
On 10/4/2011 2:16 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote


It has changed. Now you can opt out and have the transaction stopped,
rather that go through and bounce checks and incur fees. Some banks
offer protection of some sort, but I've never looked at the details.

It is better than that. "opt-out" is weasel language and is just included
to insult people. I remember two mailings from different banks stating
that there was a specific opt-in requirement.

Right, you have to opt in not to be charged. Sleazy tactics either way.

"George" wrote


Likely you know you can't just cherry pick specific sections of any legal
documents. Legal writings are intentionally crafted by lawyers to be
obtuse and confusing To insure their existence. One of the fatal errors
any lay person can make is to look at a specific paragraph and think they
know the answer.


Cherry pick? The entire legal document is at the ling for you to peruse.
Seems petty straightforward ,even for a legal document.



http://fso.cpasitesolutions.com/prem...merchants.html
Note that a cash discount is legal and permitted under all credit card
companies rules. A cash discount offers a lower price for cash than
credit; for example, many gasoline stations offer cash discounts. While
this may merely be a loophole, it is permitted. In addition, there are a
few state governmental agencies, including state tax offices and motor
vehicle departments, that are permitted to charge surcharges due to
state laws that do not permit them to pay discount fees. However, retail
merchants may not impose surcharges.

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws.../6500-500.html
§ 167. Use of cash discounts

(a) With respect to credit card which may be used for extensions of
credit in sales transactions in which the seller is a person other than
the card issuer, the card issuer may not, by contract or otherwise,
prohibit any such seller from offering a discount to a cardholder to
induce the cardholder to pay by cash, check, or similar means rather
than use a credit card.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:37:49 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/2/2011 1:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:59:55 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:48:29 -0400, Home wrote:

h wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

From suckers, like you.

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

He would pay more without the CC.

And why would that be considering businesses that are on top of their
game regarding costs know a cash transaction costs less than a CC
transaction?

Dumbass, "he" has no control over how other people pay.

Not much of a "big picture" person are you?

Not much on "thinking", are you? (a rhetorical question, in case you thought
you had to answer)

Just give an actual explanation not a goofy comment if you would.

A goofy leftist deserves nothing else but.

So just give an actual explanation of why you love banks so much. Even
people who you imagine are beneath you might benefit from it.

Like I said, you're not much on thinking. I don't "love" banks at all. They
should be able to offer whatever product they want. I'm a big boy. I can
decline. ...or use it to my advantage, as the case may be.

I am guessing it is something like when you were a little girl you went
to the bank with your mother and there were ducks in the park across the
street and you really liked them. So those great childhood memories only
allow you to think good things about banks?

Is that close?

Probably as close as a half-wit can come.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:47:18 -0700, SMS wrote:

On 10/3/2011 10:28 AM, SMS wrote:

Maybe someone knows the answer to this question, but does the new limit
on debit card fees apply only to PIN based debit card transactions or
even to MC/Visa debit card transactions?

Actually I found the answer, the limit for non-PIN based fees is 21 or
22 cents plus 0.5% of the purchase. This is significantly less than the
fees charged to merchants for credit cards, and about the same as what
it costs to clear a check with Check 21.

So what Bank of America did is smart, on the surface, though they
handled it as badly as Neflix. They have a huge credit card portfolio
and if someone says, "hey, I'll just use a credit card rather than pay
$5 a month to use a debit card" then BOA is happy. They may not have
anticipated the backlash though.

It's always amusing to read a news story where the person being
interviewed explains that they use a debit card to avoid paying interest
on credit cards. These people need to get a clue.

Perhaps not. Perhaps these people can't keep a zero balance on their CCs.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:55:22 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/2/2011 1:31 PM, Notat Home wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:48:29 -0400, Home wrote:

h wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

From suckers, like you.

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

He would pay more without the CC.

In the US, when a merchant signs up to take credit cards, he signs a
contract that he will not give a discount for cash sales. A few may, but
they are in breach of their contract.

Exactly, the majority of agreements are exactly as you described.


In the EU, such contractual provisions are illegal, and you can often
get a good discount for paying cash (I think the fee the merchant pays
on a credit card purchase can approach 10%). I don't know how it works
for debit cards, as I've never seen the need to use one.

I think congress limited the swap fees just so they could say they are
cracking down on banks (banks are never popular, even though we all need
them), but their remedy, like many of their remedies, simply won't work
because the banks will find another way to get their income. If congress
really wanted to help consumers, they would copy the EU provision making
a contract clause banning discounts for cash illegal.

I don't have a problem with banks getting their income but just do it in
a totally open fashion without restrictions such as a merchant can't
offer a discount.

Perhaps you should stop lying (not likely to happen either). Merchants *CAN*
offer a discount for cash. They cannot CHARGE MORE for CCs. There *IS* a
difference.

The interesting part is how many republicans in this group get
themselves all twisted up when someone mentions their "rewards" because
they love the socialist idea of "free stuff" because they think someone
else is paying.

You really are clueless (but I repeat myself).


What we really need is a hung congress. Or should I say hanged.

On 10/4/2011 5:18 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:37:49 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 1:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:59:55 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:48:29 -0400, Home wrote:

h wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

From suckers, like you.

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

He would pay more without the CC.

And why would that be considering businesses that are on top of their
game regarding costs know a cash transaction costs less than a CC
transaction?

Dumbass, "he" has no control over how other people pay.

Not much of a "big picture" person are you?

Not much on "thinking", are you? (a rhetorical question, in case you thought
you had to answer)

Just give an actual explanation not a goofy comment if you would.

A goofy leftist deserves nothing else but.

So just give an actual explanation of why you love banks so much. Even
people who you imagine are beneath you might benefit from it.

Like I said, you're not much on thinking. I don't "love" banks at all. They
should be able to offer whatever product they want. I'm a big boy. I can
decline. ...or use it to my advantage, as the case may be.

Agree that banks should be able to offer whatever legal product they
want. When did I write anything different? Actually think about it, be
specific. Just don't make yourself look even sillier by making your
typical goofy response expecting someone should know what you mean.



I am guessing it is something like when you were a little girl you went
to the bank with your mother and there were ducks in the park across the
street and you really liked them. So those great childhood memories only
allow you to think good things about banks?

Is that close?

Probably as close as a half-wit can come.

"George" wrote
Cherry pick? The entire legal document is at the ling for you to peruse.
Seems petty straightforward ,even for a legal document.

Surely you aren't claiming that finding one document is the be all and
end all? But wouldn't life be nice if things were so simple? No lawyers
would ever be needed. You could just cherry pick what applied to you and
go with it. Instead of the common scenario of little things like
what/which governing body has authority and what trumps what, or which
version governs or which rule supersedes which.

I posted two of hundreds. Do a Google search and see for yourself.

On 10/4/2011 7:24 PM, George wrote:
On 10/4/2011 11:31 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"George" wrote


Likely you know you can't just cherry pick specific sections of any
legal documents. Legal writings are intentionally crafted by lawyers
to be obtuse and confusing To insure their existence. One of the fatal
errors any lay person can make is to look at a specific paragraph and
think they know the answer.


Cherry pick? The entire legal document is at the ling for you to
peruse.
Seems petty straightforward ,even for a legal document.

Surely you aren't claiming that finding one document is the be all and
end all? But wouldn't life be nice if things were so simple? No
lawyers would ever be needed. You could just cherry pick what applied
to you and go with it. Instead of the common scenario of little things
like what/which governing body has authority and what trumps what, or
which version governs or which rule supersedes which.

I am working on a project now that has dragged out since last winter
for those very reasons.

Dude. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Here's what the September 2011 issue of Consumer Reports has to say:

"New Federal Reserve rules that go into effect on Oct. 1 limit fees on
debit-card transactions to 21 cents plus 0.05 percent of the value of
the purchase. Fees for credit-card payments, which average about 2
percent, were not changed, though merchants can set a $10 minimum on
credit-card purchases. Retailers can offer price discounts for cash
payment."

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...view/index.htm

Here's an article from The Merchant Council also making the point that
merchants can offer cash discounts, and some cards even permit
surcharges for card use:

http://www.merchantcouncil.org/merch...e-customer.php

Passing Credit Card Processing Charges to Customers
Yes! You can pass credit card processing fees to customers, but you
must do it properly.

As credit card processing gets more expensive, a burning merchant
account question on the mind of many business owners is, "can I pass
credit card processing fees on to my customers, and if so, how?" In
short, the answer is yes; you can charge customers a fee for paying
with a credit card, but the issue is far more complex than that.

For merchants, the ability to accept credit cards comes with many
benefits with the only real downside being the cost of doing so. It's
possible to eliminate this cost by passing it to customers, but
originators like VISA, MasterCard, American Express and Discover don't
want merchants to charge customers a fee to pay with a credit card.
The reason is pretty obvious. A fee would deter people from using
their credit card which would ultimately cause originators to lose money.

Here's what the originators have to say about passing credit card
processing fees to customers.

VISA states that "you may not impose any surcharges on VISA
transactions. You may, however, offer a discount for cash or another
form of payment (e.g., proprietary card or gift certificate) provided
that the offer is clearly disclosed to customers and the cash price is
presented as a discount from the standard price charged for all other
forms of payment"1

MasterCard states that "A Merchant must not directly or indirectly
require any Cardholder to pay a surcharge or any part of any Merchant
discount or any contemporaneous finance charge in connection with a
Transaction. A Merchant may provide a discount to its customers for
cash payments."2

Discover states that "You may assess a surcharge on a Card Sale
conducted using a Credit Card provided that (i) the amount of the
surcharge may not exceed the Merchant Fee payable by you to us for the
Card Sale, and (ii) you assess surcharges on card sales conducted
using other credit cards accepted by you."3

American Express states that "You must not accept the Card for costs
or fees over the normal price of your goods or services (plus
applicable taxes) or Charges that Cardmembers have not specifically
approved."4

Every originator except for Discover forbids surcharging credit card
sales, however, as MasterCard so clearly states, "A Merchant may
provide a discount to its customers for cash payments." This statement
holds the secret to passing credit card processing fees on to
customers. The trick isn't charging customers more for using a credit
card; it's charging them less for using cash.

In order to charge customers for credit card processing fees you must
create a dual pricing model. To accomplish this, raise all prices to
offset processing fees and then offer a discount on cash purchases
that's equal to the price increase.

The catch is that the cash price must be presented as a discount to
the true price. This means that price tags, signage and advertisements
must display the higher (credit card) price first and then display the
lower (cash discount) price as a discount. For example, many gas
stations offer a cash discount but they post the higher (credit card)
price on their roadside signage.

Passing credit card processing fees to customers may seem like a great
business idea at first but it's possible that it could hurt business.
Consider this; if customers fail to look past the higher (credit card)
price to notice the lower (cash discount) price they may assume that
your business has higher prices than your competitors.

Perhaps the biggest issue to consider before charging customers to pay
with a credit card is that some customers want or even need to pay
with their card. If paying with a card means a higher cost at your
business, these customers will likely go elsewhere. This is especially
true in tough economic times when consumers are more likely to spend
on credit.

It is possible to pass credit card processing fees to customers by
offering a discounted cash price, but doing so may cost more in lost
sales than the processing fees that you're avoiding.

Note: Charging a convenience fee is a direct way of charging customers
for using a credit but it's far more complicated than offering a cash
discount. The subject of convenience fees is beyond the scope of this
particular article. You can read more about this topic by reading the
article about convenience fees.

1 - Source: "Card Acceptance and Chargeback Management Guidelines for
VISA Merchants", Section "VISA Rules", "No Surcharging"
2 - Source: "MasterCard Rules" page 124, "Charges to Cardholders"
3 - Source: "Discover Operating Manual", page 24, "Surcharges"
4 - Source: "American Express Operating Procedures for US Merchants"
section 1.7, "Prohibited Use of the Card"

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom & pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.

Stop lying.

On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 08:05:51 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote

This is one of the things that's wrong with this country, and it now has
filtered down from the government to Joe Average who just keeps spending
when the money's gone. Hey, what do you mean I'm overdrawn, I still have
checks left. Just put it on my credit card..................

But with a *debit* card you *can't* keep spending when the money's gone.

Perce

Please advise me of a bank that issues checks to be used in conjunction with
a debit card ..............

Huh? They all do, if the debit card is attached to a checking account (as
mine are).

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 09:27:14 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/2/2011 1:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:58:03 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:09:11 -0400, wrote:

On 10/1/2011 1:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 13:23:44 -0400, wrote:

On 10/1/2011 1:06 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 1 Oct 2011 07:41:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sep 30, 11:18 am, Red wrote:
BoA heads up a cast of characters.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-5-apf-1381425...

Picture Summary:http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Looks like we need to go ahead and get our concealed carry permits so
we can carry more cash.

No need to carry cash. ;-)

Yes, it does make a lot more sense to say buy a donut using a credit or
debit card to help the banks out.

Wwwwwooooooosssssh!!

You are easily confused aren't you?

No, but they must call you "Shorty". It *still* hasn't sunk in.

So why not demonstrate your imagined intellectual superiority and simply
explain your position instead of issuing goofy comments and ad hominem
attacks?

Good grief! READ!

Read what? Instead of insulting people why not just explain what it is
you are commenting about like a normal person would.

The thread, Shorty!

On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 04:23:14 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:

On Oct 2, 6:24*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 13:14:13 -0400, George wrote:
On 10/2/2011 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:16:40 -0400, *wrote:

On 10/1/2011 7:18 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/1/2011 7:41 AM, RonB wrote:
On Sep 30, 11:18 am, Red *wrote:
BoA heads up a cast of characters.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-5-apf-1381425...

Picture Summary:http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Looks like we need to go ahead and get our concealed carry permits so
we can carry more cash.

We walked into a bank earlier this week to get a cashiers check for
$10K for a car purchase. The account we were removing the money from
was NOT small.

They wanted $10 to process a cashier's check.

We tied up two of their people for about 15-20 minutes dragging cash
out of the vault, counting it out to one-another and then to us. I
suspect that cost more than processing the check. I would have been
uncomfortable carrying that much cash but we were depositing it in
another bank 20 minutes away.

If it was a purchase from a dealer it's surprising that the dealer would
not have the ability to do Check 21 processing on personal checks.

If a business wants a bare negotiable or cash why would they want to
deal with personal checks?

Because they don't want to lose a sale?

Making a sale isn't the issue it is making money while making a sale. So
a merchant may say "I may loose some sales but I won't be paying my
attorney to go to the magistrate to try to collect on bad checks"

Read the thread again. *The question was why a business who wants cash would
want to deal with personal checks.

OTOH, they may want to pass on the sale because of the risk. *Choice is a
great thing, no?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

today many checks are electronically processed and deposited in the
merchant account while your still at the register......

ASSUMING (big assumption) that your bank, and everything in between, is
operating "on line".

the days of multi day float have floated away

Not true. It's a lot harder to count on a float, but that's a different
issue.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 09:31:05 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/2/2011 6:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 13:14:13 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:16:40 -0400, wrote:

On 10/1/2011 7:18 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/1/2011 7:41 AM, RonB wrote:
On Sep 30, 11:18 am, Red wrote:
BoA heads up a cast of characters.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-5-apf-1381425...

Picture Summary:http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Looks like we need to go ahead and get our concealed carry permits so
we can carry more cash.

We walked into a bank earlier this week to get a cashiers check for
$10K for a car purchase. The account we were removing the money from
was NOT small.

They wanted $10 to process a cashier's check.

We tied up two of their people for about 15-20 minutes dragging cash
out of the vault, counting it out to one-another and then to us. I
suspect that cost more than processing the check. I would have been
uncomfortable carrying that much cash but we were depositing it in
another bank 20 minutes away.

If it was a purchase from a dealer it's surprising that the dealer would
not have the ability to do Check 21 processing on personal checks.

If a business wants a bare negotiable or cash why would they want to
deal with personal checks?

Because they don't want to lose a sale?

Making a sale isn't the issue it is making money while making a sale. So
a merchant may say "I may loose some sales but I won't be paying my
attorney to go to the magistrate to try to collect on bad checks"

Read the thread again. The question was why a business who wants cash would
want to deal with personal checks.

OTOH, they may want to pass on the sale because of the risk. Choice is a
great thing, no?

That is what I said. Maybe you should reread it.

Maybe that's what you meant, Shorty. No one can tell.

Red Green wrote in
:

BoA heads up a cast of characters.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-apf-138142509
2.html?x=0


Picture Summary: http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg


And Citi jumps on the bandwagon

http://tinyurl.com/6zdtbes

On 10/5/2011 12:11 PM, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 10/4/2011 7:24 PM, George wrote:
On 10/4/2011 11:31 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"George" wrote


Likely you know you can't just cherry pick specific sections of any
legal documents. Legal writings are intentionally crafted by lawyers
to be obtuse and confusing To insure their existence. One of the fatal
errors any lay person can make is to look at a specific paragraph and
think they know the answer.


Cherry pick? The entire legal document is at the ling for you to
peruse.
Seems petty straightforward ,even for a legal document.

Surely you aren't claiming that finding one document is the be all and
end all? But wouldn't life be nice if things were so simple? No
lawyers would ever be needed. You could just cherry pick what applied
to you and go with it. Instead of the common scenario of little things
like what/which governing body has authority and what trumps what, or
which version governs or which rule supersedes which.

I am working on a project now that has dragged out since last winter
for those very reasons.

Dude. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

But I have no reason to disbelieve my friend who told me about the
issues one of his families businesses is having. I called him and he
said his sister manages their Cstores (a bunch and 20 dispenser class
stores) and would ask her for details.


Here's what the September 2011 issue of Consumer Reports has to say:

"New Federal Reserve rules that go into effect on Oct. 1 limit fees on
debit-card transactions to 21 cents plus 0.05 percent of the value of
the purchase. Fees for credit-card payments, which average about 2
percent, were not changed, though merchants can set a $10 minimum on
credit-card purchases. Retailers can offer price discounts for cash
payment."

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...view/index.htm


Here's an article from The Merchant Council also making the point that
merchants can offer cash discounts, and some cards even permit
surcharges for card use:

http://www.merchantcouncil.org/merch...e-customer.php


Passing Credit Card Processing Charges to Customers
Yes! You can pass credit card processing fees to customers, but you must
do it properly.

As credit card processing gets more expensive, a burning merchant
account question on the mind of many business owners is, "can I pass
credit card processing fees on to my customers, and if so, how?" In
short, the answer is yes; you can charge customers a fee for paying with
a credit card, but the issue is far more complex than that.

For merchants, the ability to accept credit cards comes with many
benefits with the only real downside being the cost of doing so. It's
possible to eliminate this cost by passing it to customers, but
originators like VISA, MasterCard, American Express and Discover don't
want merchants to charge customers a fee to pay with a credit card. The
reason is pretty obvious. A fee would deter people from using their
credit card which would ultimately cause originators to lose money.

Here's what the originators have to say about passing credit card
processing fees to customers.

VISA states that "you may not impose any surcharges on VISA
transactions. You may, however, offer a discount for cash or another
form of payment (e.g., proprietary card or gift certificate) provided
that the offer is clearly disclosed to customers and the cash price is
presented as a discount from the standard price charged for all other
forms of payment"1

MasterCard states that "A Merchant must not directly or indirectly
require any Cardholder to pay a surcharge or any part of any Merchant
discount or any contemporaneous finance charge in connection with a
Transaction. A Merchant may provide a discount to its customers for cash
payments."2

Discover states that "You may assess a surcharge on a Card Sale
conducted using a Credit Card provided that (i) the amount of the
surcharge may not exceed the Merchant Fee payable by you to us for the
Card Sale, and (ii) you assess surcharges on card sales conducted using
other credit cards accepted by you."3

American Express states that "You must not accept the Card for costs or
fees over the normal price of your goods or services (plus applicable
taxes) or Charges that Cardmembers have not specifically approved."4

Every originator except for Discover forbids surcharging credit card
sales, however, as MasterCard so clearly states, "A Merchant may provide
a discount to its customers for cash payments." This statement holds the
secret to passing credit card processing fees on to customers. The trick
isn't charging customers more for using a credit card; it's charging
them less for using cash.

In order to charge customers for credit card processing fees you must
create a dual pricing model. To accomplish this, raise all prices to
offset processing fees and then offer a discount on cash purchases
that's equal to the price increase.

The catch is that the cash price must be presented as a discount to the
true price. This means that price tags, signage and advertisements must
display the higher (credit card) price first and then display the lower
(cash discount) price as a discount. For example, many gas stations
offer a cash discount but they post the higher (credit card) price on
their roadside signage.

Passing credit card processing fees to customers may seem like a great
business idea at first but it's possible that it could hurt business.
Consider this; if customers fail to look past the higher (credit card)
price to notice the lower (cash discount) price they may assume that
your business has higher prices than your competitors.

Perhaps the biggest issue to consider before charging customers to pay
with a credit card is that some customers want or even need to pay with
their card. If paying with a card means a higher cost at your business,
these customers will likely go elsewhere. This is especially true in
tough economic times when consumers are more likely to spend on credit.

It is possible to pass credit card processing fees to customers by
offering a discounted cash price, but doing so may cost more in lost
sales than the processing fees that you're avoiding.

Note: Charging a convenience fee is a direct way of charging customers
for using a credit but it's far more complicated than offering a cash
discount. The subject of convenience fees is beyond the scope of this
particular article. You can read more about this topic by reading the
article about convenience fees.

1 - Source: "Card Acceptance and Chargeback Management Guidelines for
VISA Merchants", Section "VISA Rules", "No Surcharging"
2 - Source: "MasterCard Rules" page 124, "Charges to Cardholders"
3 - Source: "Discover Operating Manual", page 24, "Surcharges"
4 - Source: "American Express Operating Procedures for US Merchants"
section 1.7, "Prohibited Use of the Card"

On 10/5/2011 12:41 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400, wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom& pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.

Stop lying.

So aside from your mindless juvenile name calling you have now decided
you are omniscient?

On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 11:42:33 -0400, George wrote:

On 10/5/2011 12:41 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400, wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom& pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.

Stop lying.

So aside from your mindless juvenile name calling you have now decided
you are omniscient?

No name calling at all. The *fact* is that you're lying. Stop.

On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 11:23:23 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:15:01 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"h" wrote:


over $5 and put every bill I pay online on the card and pay it off every
month. Couldn't be easier and I never have to worry about fees or
over-drawing my checking account. Plus, if your debit card is stolen and
your account drained, the bank has no obligation to return your money. If
someone steals your credit card (or even just the info) you're not
responsible for the charges.

And because of this, the CC issuer's fraud units seem to be more
vigilant (sometimes TOO vigilant probably) in keeping an eye on the
accounts and freezing them.

Too vigilant? I don't think so, at all. They're pretty damned lax, as far as
I'm concerned. What's your beef?

Two years ago we were on our annual vacation in Florida and my Chase
CC was refused checking out groceries at Publix.
Got the card active again before the ice cream melted, which was my
biggest concern.
Now I call Chase security before I travel and haven't had a problem on
the 2 vacations since.
Just tell them the dates I'm gone and where I'm going.
Had a voice message from them about "unusual activity" when I got back
home from vacation the past 2 years.
"Disregard if you've already contacted Chase security."
So they're checking, and I have no doubt they'd kill the card if I
didn't call.
I don't mind calling them first, since I don't travel much.
Better than ice cream melting.
Might be a hassle for a frequent traveler, or maybe not.
Also had them call me when I was putting together computers and buying
components on-line.
Good for them. Everybody pays for what a CC thief takes.

--Vic

On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:42:44 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
" wrote:



Too vigilant? I don't think so, at all. They're pretty damned lax, as far as
I'm concerned. What's your beef?

" stopped to get gas and my card won't work."
"It says we put a fraud stop on it. I can unfreeze it if you would
like."
(Some various id confirming hooha).
"So why did you freeze my card?"
"You are in Florida."
"What else.?"
"Nothing else. You live in Indiana and you were using
your card more than the algorithm thought you should in FL."
"Anything on there besides hotels, gas, and eating establishments."
"No, but the algorithm noted you were in FL using a lot and that is not
usual."
"So the algorithm picked up I was in FL this year, but neglected to
note the other 10 years I have used the card in FL right after
Christmas?"
"Er, yeah."
"And did it take into account the gas, hotels and other stuff I bought
over 3 days in KY, TN, and GA on the way down?"
"Err, no."

Happened the next year. Same place, same time. I have started to call
them whenever I am going to be out of IN for any reason.

I found it especially interesting two years hence when I was in FL,
told them I was going to be in FL, but someone in CA got almost $3000 in
charges before I caught them.

Hehe. Sounds VERY familiar to me. Same states too. They didn't kill
the card until Florida.
This only started 3 years ago. Never in all the years prior.
Indian computer programmers unfamiliar with American vacation habits?
Or is it just that criminals gravitate to Florida for the sunshine?

--Vic

On Mon, 3 Oct 2011 12:29:22 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:



PS: Sorry about the you're/your gaff. I do know the difference, and that
was just a slip.


Your sure that was just a slip?

--Vic

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400, George
wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom & pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.


Yeah, I too don't get that "merchants have the power to change it."
Where's the "power" in losing all your CC customers by offering cash
discount to those willing to pay cash?
Seems to me the contract clause prohibiting cash discounts is
anti-competitive at its core.
I might just pay the added CC costs by choice, but would also like the
choice of taking a cash discount if that works best.


I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a discount
up front for cash.


I always left a cash tip on the table so the underpaid waitress/waiter
could score some clear money.
Until I saw a table busser pocket a tip another table had left.
Now I put the tip on the CC tab.

--Vic

On Oct 2, 10:48*am, Home Guy wrote:
h wrote:
Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

Well...I'm a merchant and pay those fees and I'm happy to do so. Cost
of doing business.

On 10/8/2011 11:34 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400,
wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom& pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.


Yeah, I too don't get that "merchants have the power to change it."
Where's the "power" in losing all your CC customers by offering cash
discount to those willing to pay cash?
Seems to me the contract clause prohibiting cash discounts is
anti-competitive at its core.
I might just pay the added CC costs by choice, but would also like the
choice of taking a cash discount if that works best.


I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a discount
up front for cash.


I always left a cash tip on the table so the underpaid waitress/waiter
could score some clear money.
Until I saw a table busser pocket a tip another table had left.
Now I put the tip on the CC tab.

the irs now assumes that waitstaff get a tip of N% and thus enforce
withholding of their share of the tax on that %age of the bill whether a
tip is left or not.

--Vic

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:12:19 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 10/8/2011 11:34 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400,
wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom& pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.


Yeah, I too don't get that "merchants have the power to change it."
Where's the "power" in losing all your CC customers by offering cash
discount to those willing to pay cash?
Seems to me the contract clause prohibiting cash discounts is
anti-competitive at its core.
I might just pay the added CC costs by choice, but would also like the
choice of taking a cash discount if that works best.


I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a discount
up front for cash.


I always left a cash tip on the table so the underpaid waitress/waiter
could score some clear money.
Until I saw a table busser pocket a tip another table had left.
Now I put the tip on the CC tab.

the irs now assumes that waitstaff get a tip of N% and thus enforce
withholding of their share of the tax on that %age of the bill whether a
tip is left or not.

That's true, AIUI, but it's the minimum of N% (8%, IIRC) of the take -OR- the
actual tips received, whichever is higher. A cash tip can still be an
advantage to the waitstaff. If the tip goes on a CC, the IRS knows about it.
I always tip in cash (generally pay cash, too), but that's not the reason.

On 10/12/2011 1:12 PM, chaniarts wrote:
On 10/8/2011 11:34 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400,
wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more
businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing
rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom& pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.


Yeah, I too don't get that "merchants have the power to change it."
Where's the "power" in losing all your CC customers by offering cash
discount to those willing to pay cash?
Seems to me the contract clause prohibiting cash discounts is
anti-competitive at its core.
I might just pay the added CC costs by choice, but would also like the
choice of taking a cash discount if that works best.


I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take
plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a
discount
up front for cash.


I always left a cash tip on the table so the underpaid waitress/waiter
could score some clear money.
Until I saw a table busser pocket a tip another table had left.
Now I put the tip on the CC tab.

the irs now assumes that waitstaff get a tip of N% and thus enforce
withholding of their share of the tax on that %age of the bill whether a
tip is left or not.

--Vic


Many eateries enforce all the tips going in a common pot, with X percent
going to busboys, and Y percent being split among the servers. Places
like that tend to lose the better servers to other places quickly.

I'd like to see tipping go away- make the places pay decent wages, and
adjust the prices accordingly. The amount out of my pocket will be the
same, I won't have to try to do the tip math in my head, and some IRS
auditors will have to find honest work.

--
aem sends...

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:25:23 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

On 10/12/2011 1:12 PM, chaniarts wrote:
On 10/8/2011 11:34 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400,
wrote:

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more
businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing
rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom& pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.


Yeah, I too don't get that "merchants have the power to change it."
Where's the "power" in losing all your CC customers by offering cash
discount to those willing to pay cash?
Seems to me the contract clause prohibiting cash discounts is
anti-competitive at its core.
I might just pay the added CC costs by choice, but would also like the
choice of taking a cash discount if that works best.


I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take
plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a
discount
up front for cash.


I always left a cash tip on the table so the underpaid waitress/waiter
could score some clear money.
Until I saw a table busser pocket a tip another table had left.
Now I put the tip on the CC tab.

the irs now assumes that waitstaff get a tip of N% and thus enforce
withholding of their share of the tax on that %age of the bill whether a
tip is left or not.

--Vic


Many eateries enforce all the tips going in a common pot, with X percent
going to busboys, and Y percent being split among the servers. Places
like that tend to lose the better servers to other places quickly.

They lose my tips (and perhaps my business), too.

I'd like to see tipping go away- make the places pay decent wages, and
adjust the prices accordingly. The amount out of my pocket will be the
same, I won't have to try to do the tip math in my head, and some IRS
auditors will have to find honest work.

The math really isn't hard. ;-) I once thought that way but have come to
appreciate the current system. I like to take care of our normal waitress at
the pizza joint on Friday night.

A few things that really **** me off, though. Shared tips. Management
stealing tips. Tips added to the bill (they lose money). Tips jars for
counter service. ...

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:39:24 -0500, "
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:25:23 -0400, aemeijers wrote:



I'd like to see tipping go away- make the places pay decent wages, and
adjust the prices accordingly. The amount out of my pocket will be the
same, I won't have to try to do the tip math in my head, and some IRS
auditors will have to find honest work.

The math really isn't hard. ;-) I once thought that way but have come to
appreciate the current system. I like to take care of our normal waitress at
the pizza joint on Friday night.


I just move the decimal to the left, double it, and round up to the
next buck. Takes no more than 90 seconds.
Went to twenty percent from 18.387% when my wife got ****ed off
waiting for me to figure it out.

A few things that really **** me off, though. Shared tips. Management
stealing tips. Tips added to the bill (they lose money). Tips jars for
counter service. ...

Shouldn't be possible for management to steal tips.
I part-time managed a couple restaurants and handled the register.
Order slips got clipped to CC slips and the waitresses had a carbon of
the order slip. I kept them sorted by waitress as customers paid.
When their shift ended they did their own tally to match mine.
I can see it happening, but only if the waitress allows herself to be
abused. I'm assuming they still keep carbons and do a register tally.
More likely a cash tip gets pocketed by another employee or a
customer.

--Vic

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:


I'd like to see tipping go away- make the places pay decent wages, and
adjust the prices accordingly. The amount out of my pocket will be the
same, I won't have to try to do the tip math in my head, and some IRS
auditors will have to find honest work.

Having spent a bunch of time in the Bahamas where automatic "tipping" is
enforced and you can't get anything taken off your bill, I don't know
if that is a good idea. You can tell the second you walk into a place
whether the place is auto tip (service is SLOOOWWW to non-existant) and
one where they still have to work for their money.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:13:51 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:39:24 -0500, "
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:25:23 -0400, aemeijers wrote:



I'd like to see tipping go away- make the places pay decent wages, and
adjust the prices accordingly. The amount out of my pocket will be the
same, I won't have to try to do the tip math in my head, and some IRS
auditors will have to find honest work.

The math really isn't hard. ;-) I once thought that way but have come to
appreciate the current system. I like to take care of our normal waitress at
the pizza joint on Friday night.


I just move the decimal to the left, double it, and round up to the
next buck. Takes no more than 90 seconds.
Went to twenty percent from 18.387% when my wife got ****ed off
waiting for me to figure it out.

Yep. Even for a cheapskate, 15% is easy, too.

A few things that really **** me off, though. Shared tips. Management
stealing tips. Tips added to the bill (they lose money). Tips jars for
counter service. ...

Shouldn't be possible for management to steal tips.

Possible? I know a few places that do it. Tips are forked over to
management, who gives *part* back at the end of the night.

I part-time managed a couple restaurants and handled the register.
Order slips got clipped to CC slips and the waitresses had a carbon of
the order slip. I kept them sorted by waitress as customers paid.
When their shift ended they did their own tally to match mine.
I can see it happening, but only if the waitress allows herself to be
abused. I'm assuming they still keep carbons and do a register tally.
More likely a cash tip gets pocketed by another employee or a
customer.

No, you had it the first time. Want to keep the job? Tips go here. In some
places the "pool" is used to pay the dishwasher or cooks.

On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:27:13 -0500, "
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:13:51 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:



Shouldn't be possible for management to steal tips.

Possible? I know a few places that do it. Tips are forked over to
management, who gives *part* back at the end of the night.

I part-time managed a couple restaurants and handled the register.
Order slips got clipped to CC slips and the waitresses had a carbon of
the order slip. I kept them sorted by waitress as customers paid.
When their shift ended they did their own tally to match mine.
I can see it happening, but only if the waitress allows herself to be
abused. I'm assuming they still keep carbons and do a register tally.
More likely a cash tip gets pocketed by another employee or a
customer.

No, you had it the first time. Want to keep the job? Tips go here. In some
places the "pool" is used to pay the dishwasher or cooks.

If I found out a place that did that, I'd get in management's face
real loud like, leave and never come back.
Then I'd publish it in local letters to the editor, blogs, on-line
review sites, etc.
Is that what you do?
There's plenty of laws being broken there.
Who the hell would frequent such a place, or leave a tip?
Never heard of it, except with whores and pimps, or saw it happen.
I know about tip pools for waitresses/bussers.
In the busy places I worked staff was a team, and the waitresses had
no problem giving up 15% of tips to bussers.
On the surface, anyway.

--Vic

On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:14:49 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:27:13 -0500, "
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:13:51 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:



Shouldn't be possible for management to steal tips.

Possible? I know a few places that do it. Tips are forked over to
management, who gives *part* back at the end of the night.

I part-time managed a couple restaurants and handled the register.
Order slips got clipped to CC slips and the waitresses had a carbon of
the order slip. I kept them sorted by waitress as customers paid.
When their shift ended they did their own tally to match mine.
I can see it happening, but only if the waitress allows herself to be
abused. I'm assuming they still keep carbons and do a register tally.
More likely a cash tip gets pocketed by another employee or a
customer.

No, you had it the first time. Want to keep the job? Tips go here. In some
places the "pool" is used to pay the dishwasher or cooks.

If I found out a place that did that, I'd get in management's face
real loud like, leave and never come back.
Then I'd publish it in local letters to the editor, blogs, on-line
review sites, etc.
Is that what you do?

I just never go back. A letter to the editor can easily backfire (libel).

There's plenty of laws being broken there.

....depending on the jurisdiction. Some have pretty lax laws in these areas.

Who the hell would frequent such a place, or leave a tip?

I don't, but it *does* happen.

Never heard of it, except with whores and pimps, or saw it happen.
I know about tip pools for waitresses/bussers.
In the busy places I worked staff was a team, and the waitresses had
no problem giving up 15% of tips to bussers.
On the surface, anyway.

They likely had no choice.

On 10/5/2011 9:41 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400, wrote:

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.

Stop lying.

Filtering out trolls is better than responding to them. He is well aware
that there is no prohibition on cash discounts.

On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:25:12 -0700, SMS wrote:

On 10/5/2011 9:41 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:02:34 -0400, wrote:

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.

Stop lying.

Filtering out trolls is better than responding to them. He is well aware
that there is no prohibition on cash discounts.

Not sure "George" knows he's a troll. He thinks he knows something.

On 9/30/2011 3:00 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I'm trying to figure out where to go with the CC, I'm obviously staying
with Schwab for everything else. Any suggestions?
Maybe the Cap 1 rewards card instead of the mileage one.

It's time to bid a fond farewell to the FIA/Schwab Visa Signature card
with the 2% rebate. I began moving my automatic payments off the 2%
card, which expires on October 31st, onto a 1.5% rebate card. Strangely
there has no been Bank of America replacement card yet, but they still
have a couple of weeks.

The 2% was nice while it lasted.

In article ,
SMS wrote:

On 9/30/2011 3:00 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I'm trying to figure out where to go with the CC, I'm obviously staying
with Schwab for everything else. Any suggestions?
Maybe the Cap 1 rewards card instead of the mileage one.

It's time to bid a fond farewell to the FIA/Schwab Visa Signature card
with the 2% rebate. I began moving my automatic payments off the 2%
card, which expires on October 31st, onto a 1.5% rebate card. Strangely
there has no been Bank of America replacement card yet, but they still
have a couple of weeks.
Where did you go? I have a complete aversion to ever (knowingly
anyway) doing business with BofA and would like to find some place else
to go. Anyone know the name of the CC comparison website?
The website deregistered my card and won't let me re-register it so
I can't check on things and get my rewards. Another reason to tell BoA
to KMA



The 2% was nice while it lasted.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On 10/13/2011 4:41 PM, SMS wrote:
On 9/30/2011 3:00 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I'm trying to figure out where to go with the CC, I'm obviously staying
with Schwab for everything else. Any suggestions?
Maybe the Cap 1 rewards card instead of the mileage one.

It's time to bid a fond farewell to the FIA/Schwab Visa Signature card
with the 2% rebate. I began moving my automatic payments off the 2%
card, which expires on October 31st, onto a 1.5% rebate card. Strangely
there has no been Bank of America replacement card yet, but they still
have a couple of weeks.

The 2% was nice while it lasted.


my amex costco card rebates 3% on gas, 2% on travel related stuff, and
1% on everything else.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:38:18 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
SMS wrote:

On 9/30/2011 3:00 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I'm trying to figure out where to go with the CC, I'm obviously staying
with Schwab for everything else. Any suggestions?
Maybe the Cap 1 rewards card instead of the mileage one.

It's time to bid a fond farewell to the FIA/Schwab Visa Signature card
with the 2% rebate. I began moving my automatic payments off the 2%
card, which expires on October 31st, onto a 1.5% rebate card. Strangely
there has no been Bank of America replacement card yet, but they still
have a couple of weeks.
Where did you go? I have a complete aversion to ever (knowingly
anyway) doing business with BofA and would like to find some place else
to go. Anyone know the name of the CC comparison website?

Which one? Do a web search on ["credit card" + comparison]. Pick one.

The website deregistered my card and won't let me re-register it so
I can't check on things and get my rewards. Another reason to tell BoA
to KMA

The word is that their customer service department is brain-dead. Not
unusual, but at the first sign of problems it's time to ditch a CC company.
There are many more to choose from.

In article ,
chaniarts wrote:

my amex costco card rebates 3% on gas, 2% on travel related stuff, and
1% on everything else.

Does it have an annual fee?

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On 10/14/2011 8:26 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In ,
wrote:

my amex costco card rebates 3% on gas, 2% on travel related stuff, and
1% on everything else.

Does it have an annual fee?


no, if you're a costco member, which does ($55 iirc) have a fee.