On Oct 2, 6:24*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 13:14:13 -0400, George wrote:
On 10/2/2011 12:28 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:16:40 -0400, *wrote:

On 10/1/2011 7:18 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/1/2011 7:41 AM, RonB wrote:
On Sep 30, 11:18 am, Red *wrote:
BoA heads up a cast of characters.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-5-apf-1381425...

Picture Summary:http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Looks like we need to go ahead and get our concealed carry permits so
we can carry more cash.

We walked into a bank earlier this week to get a cashiers check for
$10K for a car purchase. The account we were removing the money from
was NOT small.

They wanted $10 to process a cashier's check.

We tied up two of their people for about 15-20 minutes dragging cash
out of the vault, counting it out to one-another and then to us. I
suspect that cost more than processing the check. I would have been
uncomfortable carrying that much cash but we were depositing it in
another bank 20 minutes away.

If it was a purchase from a dealer it's surprising that the dealer would
not have the ability to do Check 21 processing on personal checks.

If a business wants a bare negotiable or cash why would they want to
deal with personal checks?

Because they don't want to lose a sale?

Making a sale isn't the issue it is making money while making a sale. So
a merchant may say "I may loose some sales but I won't be paying my
attorney to go to the magistrate to try to collect on bad checks"

Read the thread again. *The question was why a business who wants cash would
want to deal with personal checks.

OTOH, they may want to pass on the sale because of the risk. *Choice is a
great thing, no?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

today many checks are electronically processed and deposited in the
merchant account while your still at the register......

the days of multi day float have floated away

On 10/3/2011 4:01 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 10/02/11 11:48 pm, Steve B wrote:

This is one of the things that's wrong with this country, and it now has
filtered down from the government to Joe Average who just keeps spending
when the money's gone. Hey, what do you mean I'm overdrawn, I still have
checks left. Just put it on my credit card..................

But with a *debit* card you *can't* keep spending when the money's gone.

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

What BOA did is actually a good thing, though not for themselves. It's
time that the cost of transactions is out in the open. As for the
merchants, it's unclear how the debit card fee and the reduction in
merchant fees will play out. If it results in more people paying cash
then it's probably good for them. If it results in more people paying
with checks then it'll be as bad as the old debit card fees because the
check processing fees will be about as much as the old debit card fees.
If it results in more credit card transactions it will be worse than the
new debit card fees.

Congress did not look at the big picture here. If they want to do this
sort of banking regulation they should have addressed credit card fees,
check fees, and cash fees (yep!) at the same time.

If the merchants really wanted to fight back against these fees then
they would all start to offer cash discounts. While some gas stations do
this already, not a lot of merchants do it, and the ones that do tend to
be smaller stores. This would be bad for the banking industry as well as
the government because there would be much more unreported income from
businesses. The reason many small businesses offer a 2-3% cash discount
is not simply to avoid transaction fees it's because they often will not
report the cash sales and not submit the sales tax to the state.

Of course the large banks charge businesses for handling cash as well,
and there are costs of armored cars and the risk of handling a lot of
cash. A side benefit of accepting debit cards, for the merchant, is that
not only are they handling less cash from customers, they are getting
rid of cash by giving it to customers that want cash back so they are
paying the bank less for handling cash.

aemeijers wrote:

Carrying cash doesn't bother me- I don't look worth robbing. Wearing
rags and driving junkers has its virtues. And since I avoid dense
urban areas like the plague they are, I think the odds are in my
favor. -- aem sends...

The odds against your house catching fire are small indeed; but I bet you
have a fire extinguisher!

Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin with a
"4".

"Steve B" wrote in
news
First, I'm 62 years old.

Second, anyone who has to use a debit card to pay for a Big Mac meal
does not deserve to go out in public without adult supervision. I see
stupid people all the time paying for very small purchases, gleefully
ignorant of the charges involved.

Carry cash. Learn how to use it. Learn that when it's gone, it's
time to stop spending. Learn when it gets low, it's time to watch
what you buy. On big ticket items, write a check, or get a cashier's
check, or get a high limit credit card and pay it off so you don't pay
any interest.

And mostly, learn to never pay someone else to use your own money.

This is one of the things that's wrong with this country, and it now
has filtered down from the government to Joe Average who just keeps
spending when the money's gone. Hey, what do you mean I'm overdrawn,
I still have checks left. Just put it on my credit
card..................

Steve

I'll be 67 in 3 weeks. I won't let people or banks use my money for
their own uses unless I really acquiesce to that use. I use cash for
things below $20. I agree that use of unsupervised credit is very bad
for people individually and the country as a whole. Maybe we can get
congresscritters to use their own personal credit cards for some of their
largesse. groan.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 10/2/2011 8:25 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/2/2011 4:01 PM, aemeijers wrote:
On 10/2/2011 1:22 PM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2011 12:32 PM, aemeijers wrote:
On 10/2/2011 11:53 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2011 12:58 AM, SMS wrote:
On 10/1/2011 5:37 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

A *long* time ago, CUs weren't allowed to clear checks through the
system.
They got around it by affiliating with a bank and issuing "drafts".
Same
thing, usually. That changed at least 20 years ago, though. CUs also
can't
do commercial accounts, so there are some differences but for most,
CUs are
the way to go.

I have a commercial account at a credit union. In fact they told me
they
could no longer accept checks made out to my business into my
personal
CU account anymore (they had been able to do that previously) and
said
that it could only be done in a commercial account. All they needed
was
my fictitious name notice to open the commercial account.

Since you have a business you may want to ask your accountant why they
didn't flag that years ago. Commingling of personal and business
assets
is not considered good form.

'Ask your accountant' is like 'ask your lawyer'. Not everyone,
especially small or one-man DBAs, can afford to keep that level of
expertise on retainer. Why do you think small-business accounting SW
sells so well?


OK, then ask Google. I just did and the first 8 links that came up were
all relevant.

Commingling business and personal assets is not a good idea for a lot of
reasons among them it will give an auditor a good reason to look really
well once they see you are doing that.

I am guessing the credit union involved was just cluelessly assisting a
depositor(s) in a bad practice and someone realized it.

Oh, I wasn't saying you were wrong, or anything. I'm no accountant or
lawyer, and even I know why business and/or escrow accounts are good CYA
for all the players in a deal. But I grew up in a small construction
company, and did take a few business law courses in college.

Of course he was wrong. First of all, in this case I was not co-mingling
business and personal assets, it was an account solely usef for
business. But many people that are consultants have checks made out to
their business name and need to be able to deposit them.

I did miss where you previously stated "I had this account I only use
for my business but I had to change the name". Oh wait...

On 10/2/2011 1:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:59:55 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:48:29 -0400, Home wrote:

h wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

From suckers, like you.

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

He would pay more without the CC.

And why would that be considering businesses that are on top of their
game regarding costs know a cash transaction costs less than a CC
transaction?

Dumbass, "he" has no control over how other people pay.

Not much of a "big picture" person are you?


Just give an actual explanation not a goofy comment if you would.

A goofy leftist deserves nothing else but.

So just give an actual explanation of why you love banks so much. Even
people who you imagine are beneath you might benefit from it.

I am guessing it is something like when you were a little girl you went
to the bank with your mother and there were ducks in the park across the
street and you really liked them. So those great childhood memories only
allow you to think good things about banks?

Is that close?

On 10/3/2011 7:58 AM, HeyBub wrote:
aemeijers wrote:

Carrying cash doesn't bother me- I don't look worth robbing. Wearing
rags and driving junkers has its virtues. And since I avoid dense
urban areas like the plague they are, I think the odds are in my
favor. -- aem sends...

The odds against your house catching fire are small indeed; but I bet you
have a fire extinguisher!

Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin with a
"4".


Other than evenings and weekends, I can't. Aside from the ha$$le of
getting a carry permit in this state, my workplace is a DMZ, even in the
inside-the-perimeter parking lots. And I won't leave a weapon in a
vehicle parked outside the perimeter.

--
aem sends...

On 10/2/2011 3:28 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/2/2011 10:31 AM, Notat Home wrote:

In the US, when a merchant signs up to take credit cards, he signs a
contract that he will not give a discount for cash sales. A few may, but
they are in breach of their contract.

Wrong. They sign a contract that they will not have a surcharge for
credit card sales. It's actually different. The posted price is what a
credit card user pays. A cash customer can get a discount--sometimes.

Wrong, it varies according to the agreement. For some reason CC
agreements have merchants by the short hairs in my state.

As an example there is a local family owned discount store chain in this
area. Previously you could walk up to a register and when you said cash
you received an automatic cash discount. It went through the court
systems for a number of years and they lost.

I know a family member of a local family that owns a bunch of mini
marts. Earlier this year they offered cash discounts and within days
they received a letter from the CC company advising them they would
proceed with legal action if they continued. They checked with their
legal adviser who advised them to back off from their idea.

A guy had a large gas station in the area where some family members
live. He began offering cash discounts. The CC company stopped him
within a month. He actually bought a nearby second station and runs it
as a cash only operation.

On 10/2/2011 1:31 PM, Notat Home wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:48:29 -0400, Home wrote:

h wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

From suckers, like you.

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

He would pay more without the CC.

In the US, when a merchant signs up to take credit cards, he signs a
contract that he will not give a discount for cash sales. A few may, but
they are in breach of their contract.

Exactly, the majority of agreements are exactly as you described.


In the EU, such contractual provisions are illegal, and you can often
get a good discount for paying cash (I think the fee the merchant pays
on a credit card purchase can approach 10%). I don't know how it works
for debit cards, as I've never seen the need to use one.

I think congress limited the swap fees just so they could say they are
cracking down on banks (banks are never popular, even though we all need
them), but their remedy, like many of their remedies, simply won't work
because the banks will find another way to get their income. If congress
really wanted to help consumers, they would copy the EU provision making
a contract clause banning discounts for cash illegal.

I don't have a problem with banks getting their income but just do it in
a totally open fashion without restrictions such as a merchant can't
offer a discount.

The interesting part is how many republicans in this group get
themselves all twisted up when someone mentions their "rewards" because
they love the socialist idea of "free stuff" because they think someone
else is paying.



What we really need is a hung congress. Or should I say hanged.

On 10/2/2011 6:20 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 13:31:59 -0400, Notat wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 10:48:29 -0400, Home wrote:

h wrote:

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. I get back at least $750 a year
from my BoA credit card and I never pay them one thin dime.

Where do you think they're getting this money to pay you?

From suckers, like you.

They're getting it from retailers who are paying increasing amounts for
CC processing charges and in turn they are raising the price you pay for
retail goods to compensate.

He would pay more without the CC.

In the US, when a merchant signs up to take credit cards, he signs a
contract that he will not give a discount for cash sales. A few may,
but they are in breach of their contract.

No, he says that he will not charge more for CC sales. In any case, it's his

Or as most read it says he can't distinguish between CC and cash and
can't even let customers know how much the banks cut is.

choice. That's sorta how contracts work.

So a few banks control everything and deliver appropriate tribute to the
politicians who protect them.

Then there are socialists like you who love those "rewards" because they
can imagine someone else is paying for them.


In the EU, such contractual provisions are illegal, and you can often
get a good discount for paying cash (I think the fee the merchant pays
on a credit card purchase can approach 10%). I don't know how it works
for debit cards, as I've never seen the need to use one.

The EU is anti-freedom.shrug

I know Rush doesn't touch on this but unfortunately there is this thing
called human nature and one part of it is greed. And it isn't the same
as wanting to im prove yourself which is a good thing. Greed simply
means you disable your moral compass so you can do whatever is necessary
to get ahead. So we devise regulation to temper that. Look how well it
worked out we we removed the regulation that prohibited banks and
brokerages from merging.

This is no different than defining say murder or rape is wrong and
having a penalty for it.



I think congress limited the swap fees just so they could say they are
cracking down on banks (banks are never popular, even though we all need
them), but their remedy, like many of their remedies, simply won't work
because the banks will find another way to get their income. If
congress really wanted to help consumers, they would copy the EU
provision making a contract clause banning discounts for cash illegal.

"Cracking down on banks"? You're funny.

What we really need is a hung congress. Or should I say hanged.

I was starting to wonder about you... ;-)

On 10/3/2011 7:48 AM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 4:01 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 10/02/11 11:48 pm, Steve B wrote:

This is one of the things that's wrong with this country, and it now has
filtered down from the government to Joe Average who just keeps spending
when the money's gone. Hey, what do you mean I'm overdrawn, I still have
checks left. Just put it on my credit card..................

But with a *debit* card you *can't* keep spending when the money's gone.

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

Or not, his point was that it is expensive to a merchant (and therefore
all customers) because the CC fees on small purchases are
disproportionate and could kill the profit on the transaction.

But it is a great deal for the banks. Why do you think they run all of
those adds with folks dancing around waving their cards to buy a
doughnut or a coffee?



What BOA did is actually a good thing, though not for themselves. It's
time that the cost of transactions is out in the open. As for the
merchants, it's unclear how the debit card fee and the reduction in
merchant fees will play out. If it results in more people paying cash
then it's probably good for them. If it results in more people paying
with checks then it'll be as bad as the old debit card fees because the
check processing fees will be about as much as the old debit card fees.
If it results in more credit card transactions it will be worse than the
new debit card fees.

Congress did not look at the big picture here. If they want to do this
sort of banking regulation they should have addressed credit card fees,
check fees, and cash fees (yep!) at the same time.

They tried, CCs were part of the original language of the legislation.
Then someone delivered the appropriate thickness envelopes.


If the merchants really wanted to fight back against these fees then
they would all start to offer cash discounts. While some gas stations do
this already, not a lot of merchants do it, and the ones that do tend to
be smaller stores. This would be bad for the banking industry as well as
the government because there would be much more unreported income from
businesses. The reason many small businesses offer a 2-3% cash discount
is not simply to avoid transaction fees it's because they often will not
report the cash sales and not submit the sales tax to the state.

How would they do this when in most cases their contract says they can't
distinguish card transactions from cash transactions? Remember only a
few banks control *all* of the banking in the US.


Of course the large banks charge businesses for handling cash as well,
and there are costs of armored cars and the risk of handling a lot of

But that is not nearly as expensive as the tribute they must pay to
handle cards.

cash. A side benefit of accepting debit cards, for the merchant, is that
not only are they handling less cash from customers, they are getting
rid of cash by giving it to customers that want cash back so they are
paying the bank less for handling cash.

On 10/2/2011 1:17 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:58:03 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:09:11 -0400, wrote:

On 10/1/2011 1:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 13:23:44 -0400, wrote:

On 10/1/2011 1:06 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 1 Oct 2011 07:41:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sep 30, 11:18 am, Red wrote:
BoA heads up a cast of characters.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-5-apf-1381425...

Picture Summary:http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Looks like we need to go ahead and get our concealed carry permits so
we can carry more cash.

No need to carry cash. ;-)

Yes, it does make a lot more sense to say buy a donut using a credit or
debit card to help the banks out.

Wwwwwooooooosssssh!!

You are easily confused aren't you?

No, but they must call you "Shorty". It *still* hasn't sunk in.

So why not demonstrate your imagined intellectual superiority and simply
explain your position instead of issuing goofy comments and ad hominem
attacks?

Good grief! READ!

Read what? Instead of insulting people why not just explain what it is
you are commenting about like a normal person would.


There is no need to carry cash to get a concealed carry permit. I have one
(though I sometimes carry a little cash - there's$1000 in my wallet now).

We walked into a bank earlier this week to get a cashiers check for
$10K for a car purchase. The account we were removing the money from
was NOT small.

I'm sure the dealer was happy. ;-)

Or it was a win-win. You can get better prices if you make cash part of
the negotiation because the dealer knows the tribute they will need to
pay to the bank.

Cash handling isn't free either.

Of course not but you are just parroting the FUD used by banks. If you
ever get a chance to see actual merchant costs you would be quite
surprised. Even common sense and simple observation will give you a good
idea.

FUD? No, I'm tall enough to see a tree in the forest. ...and ,no, I wouldn't
be surprised, Shorty. You shouldn't speak of which you haven't a clue. IOW,
be mute.

Not everyone loves banks.

Not everyone loves lawyers or dentists either.

Sure, but I am confident lawyyers and dentists weren't part of the team
that tanked the economy.

I didn't think they made people that short. ...and stupid.

Ad hominem attacks just make the issuer look clueless. Was that your
intention?

Just the facts, Shorty.

On 10/2/2011 6:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 13:14:13 -0400, wrote:

On 10/2/2011 12:28 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:16:40 -0400, wrote:

On 10/1/2011 7:18 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/1/2011 7:41 AM, RonB wrote:
On Sep 30, 11:18 am, Red wrote:
BoA heads up a cast of characters.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-5-apf-1381425...

Picture Summary:http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Looks like we need to go ahead and get our concealed carry permits so
we can carry more cash.

We walked into a bank earlier this week to get a cashiers check for
$10K for a car purchase. The account we were removing the money from
was NOT small.

They wanted $10 to process a cashier's check.

We tied up two of their people for about 15-20 minutes dragging cash
out of the vault, counting it out to one-another and then to us. I
suspect that cost more than processing the check. I would have been
uncomfortable carrying that much cash but we were depositing it in
another bank 20 minutes away.

If it was a purchase from a dealer it's surprising that the dealer would
not have the ability to do Check 21 processing on personal checks.

If a business wants a bare negotiable or cash why would they want to
deal with personal checks?

Because they don't want to lose a sale?

Making a sale isn't the issue it is making money while making a sale. So
a merchant may say "I may loose some sales but I won't be paying my
attorney to go to the magistrate to try to collect on bad checks"

Read the thread again. The question was why a business who wants cash would
want to deal with personal checks.

OTOH, they may want to pass on the sale because of the risk. Choice is a
great thing, no?

That is what I said. Maybe you should reread it.

On 10/3/2011 8:49 AM, George wrote:
On 10/2/2011 3:28 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/2/2011 10:31 AM, Notat Home wrote:

In the US, when a merchant signs up to take credit cards, he signs a
contract that he will not give a discount for cash sales. A few may, but
they are in breach of their contract.

Wrong. They sign a contract that they will not have a surcharge for
credit card sales. It's actually different. The posted price is what a
credit card user pays. A cash customer can get a discount--sometimes.

Wrong, it varies according to the agreement. For some reason CC
agreements have merchants by the short hairs in my state.

As an example there is a local family owned discount store chain in this
area. Previously you could walk up to a register and when you said cash
you received an automatic cash discount. It went through the court
systems for a number of years and they lost.

I know a family member of a local family that owns a bunch of mini
marts. Earlier this year they offered cash discounts and within days
they received a letter from the CC company advising them they would
proceed with legal action if they continued. They checked with their
legal adviser who advised them to back off from their idea.

A guy had a large gas station in the area where some family members
live. He began offering cash discounts. The CC company stopped him
within a month. He actually bought a nearby second station and runs it
as a cash only operation.

Most of the gas stations around here have a cash discount (S. Fl.) Some
will accept a debit card as cash. Go figure!

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote

This is one of the things that's wrong with this country, and it now has
filtered down from the government to Joe Average who just keeps spending
when the money's gone. Hey, what do you mean I'm overdrawn, I still have
checks left. Just put it on my credit card..................

But with a *debit* card you *can't* keep spending when the money's gone.

Perce

Please advise me of a bank that issues checks to be used in conjunction with
a debit card ..............

Steve

"SMS" wrote

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

What? That you stop spending when you're pocket is empty? That you control
spending when you're getting low on money? That you don't pay someone to
dispense your money to you? Mommy can do that for free, plus let you live
in her basement.

Who missed what in that rant?

Steve

Red Green wrote in
:

BoA heads up a cast of characters.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-o...-apf-138142509
2.html?x=0


Picture Summary: http://oi54.tinypic.com/vx1amv.jpg

Good grief, this is turning into thread of the month!

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
aemeijers wrote:

Carrying cash doesn't bother me- I don't look worth robbing. Wearing
rags and driving junkers has its virtues. And since I avoid dense
urban areas like the plague they are, I think the odds are in my
favor. -- aem sends...

The odds against your house catching fire are small indeed; but I bet you
have a fire extinguisher!

Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin with
a "4".

I'm with you. I live in rural rural USA, where people are nice, but will
shoot you dead after dark if you're prowling around their property.

Steve

On 10/3/2011 7:27 AM, Chuck wrote:

Most of the gas stations around here have a cash discount (S. Fl.) Some
will accept a debit card as cash. Go figure!

It's actually easy to figure.

A PIN based transaction has a fixed transaction fee, there is no extra
fee based on the dollar amount of the transaction. I would bet that the
station only does PIN based debit transactions at the cash price and
that non-PIN based debit card transactions don't qualify.

A credit card, or a debit card with a Visa/MC logo (used without a PIN),
has a fixed transaction fee plus a percentage of the total purchase,
generally 1.5-2% depending on the processor and the type of card.

If you're buying gasoline, where the retailer is making say 10 cents per
gallon, they could be losing money on the transaction if they are paying
seven cents per gallon (2%) in fees, plus the fixed transaction fee. If
they're selling you fuel with a PIN based debit card they're paying the
transaction fee and still not making as much as with cash, but for a
typical fill-up they are still making something.

Arco stations accept PIN based debit card transactions but add a 50 cent
fee to cover their costs.

You will see that rewards programs on debit cards specifically exclude
PIN based transactions with wording like "Cashback is not valid for
PIN-based transactions."

Merchants are forbidden from charging a surcharge for credit card use as
part of their merchant agreement. It's not a law, but the credit card
company could sue for breach of contract if they were caught surcharging
for credit card use. However nothing prevents them from offering a cash
discount, and many merchants do this. IKEA is the only national chain
that I know of that explicitly offers a discount for the use of a PIN
based debit card. Since it's only 1%, and my credit card gives me 2%
cash back (for now) it's not worth it for me.

Maybe someone knows the answer to this question, but does the new limit
on debit card fees apply only to PIN based debit card transactions or
even to MC/Visa debit card transactions?

On 10/3/2011 8:07 AM, Steve B wrote:
wrote

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

What? That you stop spending when you're pocket is empty?

"Your," not "you're."

The use of a debit card frees you from the need to carry a lot of cash
or to write checks. It makes little sense if you are good at handling
your finances because with a credit card you get mandated legal
protections plus you often get rewards worth up to 5% of the purchase.
For example, I get 4% cash back on gasoline with my Costco Amex card.

If you are bad at handling your finances, a debit card may be a good
idea, and it's no worse than withdrawing cash from your bank and paying
with cash. You still can't spend money you don't have.

A debit card that does not require a PIN (one with a MC/Visa logo) is a
very bad idea for other reasons, but it does not allow you to spend
money that you don't have.

On 10/3/2011 10:28 AM, SMS wrote:

Maybe someone knows the answer to this question, but does the new limit
on debit card fees apply only to PIN based debit card transactions or
even to MC/Visa debit card transactions?

Actually I found the answer, the limit for non-PIN based fees is 21 or
22 cents plus 0.5% of the purchase. This is significantly less than the
fees charged to merchants for credit cards, and about the same as what
it costs to clear a check with Check 21.

So what Bank of America did is smart, on the surface, though they
handled it as badly as Neflix. They have a huge credit card portfolio
and if someone says, "hey, I'll just use a credit card rather than pay
$5 a month to use a debit card" then BOA is happy. They may not have
anticipated the backlash though.

It's always amusing to read a news story where the person being
interviewed explains that they use a debit card to avoid paying interest
on credit cards. These people need to get a clue.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:13:19 -0700, Steve B wrote:
Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin
with a "4".

I'm with you. I live in rural rural USA, where people are nice, but
will shoot you dead after dark if you're prowling around their property.

That's probably because at some point in their past, someone has
suggested they carry something with a caliber beginning with "4"... ;-)

"SMS" wrote in message
...
On 10/3/2011 8:07 AM, Steve B wrote:
wrote

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

What? That you stop spending when you're pocket is empty?

"Your," not "you're."

The use of a debit card frees you from the need to carry a lot of cash or
to write checks. It makes little sense if you are good at handling your
finances because with a credit card you get mandated legal protections
plus you often get rewards worth up to 5% of the purchase. For example, I
get 4% cash back on gasoline with my Costco Amex card.

If you are bad at handling your finances, a debit card may be a good idea,
and it's no worse than withdrawing cash from your bank and paying with
cash. You still can't spend money you don't have.

A debit card that does not require a PIN (one with a MC/Visa logo) is a
very bad idea for other reasons, but it does not allow you to spend money
that you don't have.

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check, money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card for air
miles.

Whatever fits your lifestyle and pocketbook. One size does not fit all.

Steve

PS: Sorry about the you're/your gaff. I do know the difference, and that
was just a slip.

"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:13:19 -0700, Steve B wrote:
Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin
with a "4".

I'm with you. I live in rural rural USA, where people are nice, but
will shoot you dead after dark if you're prowling around their property.

That's probably because at some point in their past, someone has
suggested they carry something with a caliber beginning with "4"... ;-

Or, probably, they've owned guns going back as far as they can trace their
genealogy.

Steve

On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check, money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom & pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a discount
up front for cash.

On 10/3/2011 1:28 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 7:27 AM, Chuck wrote:

Most of the gas stations around here have a cash discount (S. Fl.) Some
will accept a debit card as cash. Go figure!

It's actually easy to figure.

A PIN based transaction has a fixed transaction fee, there is no extra
fee based on the dollar amount of the transaction. I would bet that the
station only does PIN based debit transactions at the cash price and
that non-PIN based debit card transactions don't qualify.

A credit card, or a debit card with a Visa/MC logo (used without a PIN),
has a fixed transaction fee plus a percentage of the total purchase,
generally 1.5-2% depending on the processor and the type of card.

If you're buying gasoline, where the retailer is making say 10 cents per
gallon, they could be losing money on the transaction if they are paying
seven cents per gallon (2%) in fees, plus the fixed transaction fee. If
they're selling you fuel with a PIN based debit card they're paying the
transaction fee and still not making as much as with cash, but for a
typical fill-up they are still making something.

Arco stations accept PIN based debit card transactions but add a 50 cent
fee to cover their costs.

You will see that rewards programs on debit cards specifically exclude
PIN based transactions with wording like "Cashback is not valid for
PIN-based transactions."

Merchants are forbidden from charging a surcharge for credit card use as
part of their merchant agreement. It's not a law, but the credit card
company could sue for breach of contract if they were caught surcharging
for credit card use. However nothing prevents them from offering a cash
discount, and many merchants do this. IKEA is the only national chain
that I know of that explicitly offers a discount for the use of a PIN
based debit card. Since it's only 1%, and my credit card gives me 2%
cash back (for now) it's not worth it for me.

Good that you are such an expert. You said you have a consulting
business. Want some clients? I am sure my friends family who was
informed they can't offer a cash discount per their contract (and
confirmed by their lawyer) would love to talk to you. I don't know the
family but I am sure the family who owns the discount stores would also
love to have you fix things for them since their lawyers were not
successful in having the lower court ruling turned over on appeal.


Maybe someone knows the answer to this question, but does the new limit
on debit card fees apply only to PIN based debit card transactions or
even to MC/Visa debit card transactions?

On 10/3/2011 4:44 PM, SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or
credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check,
money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card
for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.

Personally what I would like to see is more merchants like Arco that
explicitly charge a fee for the use of a debit card, and more businesses
that have different prices for cash or credit prices. That said, the
cost of accepting cash is not zero either. There are the costs for
armored car service, and banks charge business customers for all sorts
of services related to cash, including coin counting, providing rolls of
coins, and deposits over a certain number and amount. Then there is the
problem of employee theft as well as robbery.

Essentially what's happening now is that cash customers are subsidizing
credit and debit card customers. The merchants are the ones that have
the power to change this. All they have to do is to offer a 2% discount
for cash and you'd see a big change in payment methods. We used to have
a lot of mom & pop computer stores that had advertisements that stated
"prices reflect 3% cash discount." The result was the few people used a
credit card. That system probably didn't meet the credit card issuers
rule of "no credit card surcharges," but since cash discounts are
allowable maybe it was close enough.

But how would they do that if their agreement prohibits them from
offering a cash discount? Maybe you make your living with your secret
knowledge but if not please elaborate so I can pass the info along.


I try to pay cash at small restaurants, even at those that take plastic,
just to give the owners a break. Sometimes they'll even offer a discount
up front for cash.

In article ,
SMS wrote:

On 10/3/2011 12:29 PM, Steve B wrote:

I do not have a debit card, well, there is an option of debit or credit on
my cards, but I never use it. I am old fashioned. I pay cash, check, money
order, cashier's check, wire transfer, or put it on the credit card for air
miles.

I rarely use a debit card because a credit card offers consumer
protections and rewards not available on a debit card. But it's not
accurate to claim that "Joe Average" is spending when the money's gone
when he's using a debit card because if the money's gone then the debit
won't be approved.
I don't know if Dodd-Frank changed that, but before that wasn't
necessarily the case. One of the Great Scams was letting the debit go
through and then watch multiple checks go bouncing around the
countryside. And collecting fees on every one. That may still be a
problem since Regions' local commercial specifically states they give
you 24 hours to cover overages.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On 10/3/2011 3:24 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I don't know if Dodd-Frank changed that, but before that wasn't
necessarily the case. One of the Great Scams was letting the debit go
through and then watch multiple checks go bouncing around the
countryside. And collecting fees on every one. That may still be a
problem since Regions' local commercial specifically states they give
you 24 hours to cover overages.

Yeah, you're right. Not only that, if you have overdraft protection fro
a credit card I suppose your credit card ends up being charged with cash
advances.

Another reason to avoid debit cards at all costs.

aemeijers wrote:

Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin
with a "4".


Other than evenings and weekends, I can't. Aside from the ha$$le of
getting a carry permit in this state, my workplace is a DMZ, even in
the inside-the-perimeter parking lots. And I won't leave a weapon in a
vehicle parked outside the perimeter.

It might be easier than you think. For example, if your state has dozens of
hoops, but has reciprocity with other states, a non-resident permit from
Utah or Florida may get you covered.

In what state do you live?

Consider this maxim: While ignorance of the law is no excuse, ignorance of
the facts is a perfect defense. If someone discovers a gun in your car, you
claim surprise and your wife says "Yeah, I put the gun there. Hubert didn't
know anything about it. What's it to you, asshole?"

Jules Richardson wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:13:19 -0700, Steve B wrote:
Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin
with a "4".

I'm with you. I live in rural rural USA, where people are nice, but
will shoot you dead after dark if you're prowling around their
property.

That's probably because at some point in their past, someone has
suggested they carry something with a caliber beginning with "4"...
;-)

Heh!

Texas Penal Code #9.42 DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. (a) A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible,
moveable property...
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery,
theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime, or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from
escaping with the property...

But I understand that many live in less civilized climes and have to take
extraordinary steps, such as locking their door at night.

SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 8:07 AM, Steve B wrote:
wrote

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

What? That you stop spending when you're pocket is empty?

"Your," not "you're."

The use of a debit card frees you from the need to carry a lot of cash
or to write checks. It makes little sense if you are good at handling
your finances because with a credit card you get mandated legal
protections plus you often get rewards worth up to 5% of the purchase.
For example, I get 4% cash back on gasoline with my Costco Amex card.

If you are bad at handling your finances, a debit card may be a good
idea, and it's no worse than withdrawing cash from your bank and paying
with cash. You still can't spend money you don't have.

A debit card that does not require a PIN (one with a MC/Visa logo) is a
very bad idea for other reasons, but it does not allow you to spend
money that you don't have.

I'm pretty careful with my money, so I don't know the specifics, but
don't banks offer overdraft protection on checking accounts, for a fee,
of course? If they do, would that protection extend to an overdraft
caused with a debit card? If so, that would negate the argument that a
debit card will protect you from overspending.

On 10/3/2011 2:01 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:13:19 -0700, Steve B wrote:
Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin
with a "4".

I'm with you. I live in rural rural USA, where people are nice, but
will shoot you dead after dark if you're prowling around their property.

That's probably because at some point in their past, someone has
suggested they carry something with a caliber beginning with "4"... ;-)


Well, I try not to prowl around other people's property, especially late
at night. If I do need to intrude on their privacy, I make plenty of
racket, and call out their name and mine, so they hopefully realize that
I'm not a stranger.

--
aem sends...

On 10/3/2011 7:45 PM, HeyBub wrote:
aemeijers wrote:

Consider carrying a personal extinguisher. It's caliber should begin
with a "4".


Other than evenings and weekends, I can't. Aside from the ha$$le of
getting a carry permit in this state, my workplace is a DMZ, even in
the inside-the-perimeter parking lots. And I won't leave a weapon in a
vehicle parked outside the perimeter.

It might be easier than you think. For example, if your state has dozens of
hoops, but has reciprocity with other states, a non-resident permit from
Utah or Florida may get you covered.

In what state do you live?

Consider this maxim: While ignorance of the law is no excuse, ignorance of
the facts is a perfect defense. If someone discovers a gun in your car, you
claim surprise and your wife says "Yeah, I put the gun there. Hubert didn't
know anything about it. What's it to you, asshole?"



My workplace is a federal building. Unless you are carrying a badge,
weapons are prohibited, period. Like getting arrested and/or losing my
job prohibited. And that neighborhood is about the only place where I
(occasionally) have to go after dark, where a weapon would be warranted.
After hours, you have to park outside the perimeter and go in through
one door. I park under the light, in a spot where I know the cameras
cover me all the way to the front door. I stay out of the nasty parts
of town pretty much, and have never felt at risk in the nicer parts of town.

--
aem sends...

"George" wrote
Merchants are forbidden from charging a surcharge for credit card use as
part of their merchant agreement.

Good that you are such an expert. You said you have a consulting business.
Want some clients? I am sure my friends family who was informed they can't
offer a cash discount per their contract (and confirmed by their lawyer)
would love to talk to you.

Perhaps it varies or the law has changed, but I regularly shop at a few
places that offer a cash discount. Looks like your friends may need a new
lawyer.

http://fso.cpasitesolutions.com/prem...merchants.html
Note that a cash discount is legal and permitted under all credit card
companies rules. A cash discount offers a lower price for cash than credit;
for example, many gasoline stations offer cash discounts. While this may
merely be a loophole, it is permitted. In addition, there are a few state
governmental agencies, including state tax offices and motor vehicle
departments, that are permitted to charge surcharges due to state laws that
do not permit them to pay discount fees. However, retail merchants may not
impose surcharges.

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws.../6500-500.html
§ 167. Use of cash discounts

(a) With respect to credit card which may be used for extensions of credit
in sales transactions in which the seller is a person other than the card
issuer, the card issuer may not, by contract or otherwise, prohibit any such
seller from offering a discount to a cardholder to induce the cardholder to
pay by cash, check, or similar means rather than use a credit card.

"Kurt Ullman" wrote
I don't know if Dodd-Frank changed that, but before that wasn't
necessarily the case. One of the Great Scams was letting the debit go
through and then watch multiple checks go bouncing around the
countryside. And collecting fees on every one. That may still be a
problem since Regions' local commercial specifically states they give
you 24 hours to cover overages.

It has changed. Now you can opt out and have the transaction stopped,
rather that go through and bounce checks and incur fees. Some banks offer
protection of some sort, but I've never looked at the details.

Notat Home wrote in
:

I'm pretty careful with my money, so I don't know the specifics, but
don't banks offer overdraft protection on checking accounts, for a fee,
of course? If they do, would that protection extend to an overdraft
caused with a debit card? If so, that would negate the argument that a
debit card will protect you from overspending.

I believe debit cards are covered. But Chase charges $12 overdraft fee,
plus the interest on the "loan" from the overdraft account.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 10/4/2011 2:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"George" wrote
Merchants are forbidden from charging a surcharge for credit card use as
part of their merchant agreement.

Good that you are such an expert. You said you have a consulting
business. Want some clients? I am sure my friends family who was
informed they can't offer a cash discount per their contract (and
confirmed by their lawyer) would love to talk to you.

Perhaps it varies or the law has changed, but I regularly shop at a few
places that offer a cash discount. Looks like your friends may need a
new lawyer.


Likely you know you can't just cherry pick specific sections of any
legal documents. Legal writings are intentionally crafted by lawyers to
be obtuse and confusing To insure their existence. One of the fatal
errors any lay person can make is to look at a specific paragraph and
think they know the answer.




http://fso.cpasitesolutions.com/prem...merchants.html
Note that a cash discount is legal and permitted under all credit card
companies rules. A cash discount offers a lower price for cash than
credit; for example, many gasoline stations offer cash discounts. While
this may merely be a loophole, it is permitted. In addition, there are a
few state governmental agencies, including state tax offices and motor
vehicle departments, that are permitted to charge surcharges due to
state laws that do not permit them to pay discount fees. However, retail
merchants may not impose surcharges.

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws.../6500-500.html
§ 167. Use of cash discounts

(a) With respect to credit card which may be used for extensions of
credit in sales transactions in which the seller is a person other than
the card issuer, the card issuer may not, by contract or otherwise,
prohibit any such seller from offering a discount to a cardholder to
induce the cardholder to pay by cash, check, or similar means rather
than use a credit card.

On 10/4/2011 2:16 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote
I don't know if Dodd-Frank changed that, but before that wasn't
necessarily the case. One of the Great Scams was letting the debit go
through and then watch multiple checks go bouncing around the
countryside. And collecting fees on every one. That may still be a
problem since Regions' local commercial specifically states they give
you 24 hours to cover overages.

It has changed. Now you can opt out and have the transaction stopped,
rather that go through and bounce checks and incur fees. Some banks
offer protection of some sort, but I've never looked at the details.

It is better than that. "opt-out" is weasel language and is just
included to insult people. I remember two mailings from different banks
stating that there was a specific opt-in requirement.

On 10/3/2011 8:10 PM, Notat Home wrote:
SMS wrote:
On 10/3/2011 8:07 AM, Steve B wrote:
wrote

Exactly. That's been the only rational argument for the use of debit
cards--it's good for people that are not able to properly handle
credit.
The rest of that rant is equally bizarre.

What? That you stop spending when you're pocket is empty?

"Your," not "you're."

The use of a debit card frees you from the need to carry a lot of cash
or to write checks. It makes little sense if you are good at handling
your finances because with a credit card you get mandated legal
protections plus you often get rewards worth up to 5% of the purchase.
For example, I get 4% cash back on gasoline with my Costco Amex card.

If you are bad at handling your finances, a debit card may be a good
idea, and it's no worse than withdrawing cash from your bank and paying
with cash. You still can't spend money you don't have.

A debit card that does not require a PIN (one with a MC/Visa logo) is a
very bad idea for other reasons, but it does not allow you to spend
money that you don't have.

I'm pretty careful with my money, so I don't know the specifics, but
don't banks offer overdraft protection on checking accounts, for a fee,
of course? If they do, would that protection extend to an overdraft
caused with a debit card? If so, that would negate the argument that a
debit card will protect you from overspending.

But now you need to specifically opt-in.