If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

One time only. On a European trip I had a Visa card stolen. I called the
issuing credit union from there.
When I got home there was only one charge made the day of the theft that I
had not made.
The CU had the original slip. I was asked to sign my name five times. They
looked at my sig, looked at the credit card slip and said " Ok we will
charge it back to the shop that had accepted the card."

By the way, I had gone to the police station (we were leaving that day ) and
managed to get a police report. I had it with me when I went to the CU.

I still have that report. It was my souvenir from the Rome police.

Charlie

Metspitzer wrote in
:

If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.



I've signed my own in hen scratch as TheMan, Momar Kadafi but not Red Green
yet. I assume a sig dispute would only arise if I were to challenge a
charge on my card.

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:32:50 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

I have used someone else's credit card only a few times (4-5 tops) and
never had a problem. Even when people check the photo ID they have only
checked the photo 4-5 times. I bet I could borrow my son's ID and credit
card and not have a problem, even if I write on the card to check photo ID.
I had that on my card for about 2 years and NOBODY checked the photo
against my face, only compared names.

Michael Dobony wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:32:50 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes
up.

I have used someone else's credit card only a few times (4-5 tops) and
never had a problem. Even when people check the photo ID they have
only checked the photo 4-5 times. I bet I could borrow my son's ID
and credit card and not have a problem, even if I write on the card
to check photo ID. I had that on my card for about 2 years and NOBODY
checked the photo against my face, only compared names.

I had that written on my card for several years, and they only asked for my ID a
couple times in that time.

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:57:43 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:32:50 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

I have used someone else's credit card only a few times (4-5 tops) and
never had a problem. Even when people check the photo ID they have only
checked the photo 4-5 times. I bet I could borrow my son's ID and credit
card and not have a problem, even if I write on the card to check photo ID.
I had that on my card for about 2 years and NOBODY checked the photo
against my face, only compared names.

I am guessing it is more for the clerk to match the front signature
with the back, but they are not exactly the CSI type.

I think putting a picture ID would be much more effective. Now a
days, you could email a photo to the card company.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

I assume it is easy for someone to do. Years ago Wal Mart had to see the
credit card when purchase was made. Now they don't look at it. So one day
when they were still looking at them I handed the card to cashier then
asked for it back so I could see how to sign because I had found the card
in the parking lot ( a joke of course) She just handed the card back to me
and made the purchase. I also write above my signature on card to ask for
identification, many look at that and just return the card. Also the
grocery chain I trade at I mentioned one day "I hope my poor writing of my
name passes. Clerk replied it's OK some people just draw a smiley face, no
signature and that works. WW

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:03:25 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:57:43 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:32:50 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

I have used someone else's credit card only a few times (4-5 tops) and
never had a problem. Even when people check the photo ID they have only
checked the photo 4-5 times. I bet I could borrow my son's ID and credit
card and not have a problem, even if I write on the card to check photo ID.
I had that on my card for about 2 years and NOBODY checked the photo
against my face, only compared names.

I am guessing it is more for the clerk to match the front signature

There's a signature on the front?

with the back, but they are not exactly the CSI type.

Maybe they can cancel all those bloody shows adn they can work as
clerks.

I think putting a picture ID would be much more effective. Now a
days, you could email a photo to the card company.

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:40:52 -0600, "WW"
wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
.. .
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

I assume it is easy for someone to do. Years ago Wal Mart had to see the
credit card when purchase was made. Now they don't look at it. So one day
when they were still looking at them I handed the card to cashier then
asked for it back so I could see how to sign because I had found the card
in the parking lot ( a joke of course) She just handed the card back to me
and made the purchase.

LOL.

I also write above my signature on card to ask for
identification, many look at that and just return the card. Also the
grocery chain I trade at I mentioned one day "I hope my poor writing of my
name passes. Clerk replied it's OK some people just draw a smiley face, no
signature and that works. WW

In the USA, a signature does not have to be legible or in English or
the Latin alphabet. It can be in a foreign alphabet like Greek,
Hebrew, Chinese, that no one at the store can read.

This includes your checking account and I'm sure contracts and
everything else.

I'll bet the laws that say this encompass using no alphabet, like a
smiley face, and that that is legal too. As in the cowboy movies,
"Make your mark."

"X" is legal for illiterates and others.

Personally I think it should be remembered and farily reproducible by
the signer or he's going to have troubles.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

I have LifeLock. On the back of all my cards, I have VERIFY SIGNATURE. If
a clerk does NOT verify my signature, I call for the manager, and usually
get some very good results. At the least, I get the clerk's attention and
teach them something new.

Steve

Metspitzer wrote:
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.


Hmmm,
Signature? Been using PIN long time already.

On 6/27/2011 4:32 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.


Only once, for me too. Actually, I always sign my credit cards with
my full 1st name, middle initial and full last name. However, I
sign all credit vouchers and electronic credit units 1st initial
only, middle initial and full last name. This gives me a check, if
there's a disputed credit charge, by looking at the signature. If
it's signed like on the card, it's not me. As I said, only once, a
teller sort of complained. A friend of mine signs his credit card
with the phrase "ask for identification." He then signs the voucher
or machines with his signature. He said no one ever asks for ID,
etc. either.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Art Todesco wrote:

He said no one ever asks for ID,
etc. either.

I recently ate at a restaurant that only took credit cards if you also gave
them a driver's license. But not to compare the signature. They brought
back the license with the card before I signed the check.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

"Don Wiss" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Art Todesco wrote:

He said no one ever asks for ID,
etc. either.

I recently ate at a restaurant that only took credit cards if you also
gave
them a driver's license. But not to compare the signature. They brought
back the license with the card before I signed the check.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

NEVER EVER NEVER EVER let your license or your CC leave your sight. That's
when the cards are skimmed by portable scanners and your license quickly
photographed by cell phone cameras. Police are forever busting up rings of
waitstaff that earn considerable money from criminal gangs. What they
really want is your 3 or 4 digit code on the back of your card. I always
pay with cash at restaurants. The risk is just too high that someone's
going to sell your card data to some criminal gang. Cuts out the infamous
double billing scams, too. I always make sure I have a mix of bills too, so
that the famous "disappearing waiter" trick isn't pulled on me where they
hope you'll just get tired of waiting and leave without your change.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1602245/posts

WASHINGTON -- Restaurants in the D.C. metropolitan area are working with
Secret Service agents to shut down a credit card-skimming scheme, and
authorities said each business was hit from the inside.

Managers at the DuClaw Brewing Company and Pizzeria Uno at the Bowie Town
Center in Bowie, Md., Jasper's in Largo, Md., and the Red, Hot and Blue
restaurant in Arlington, Va., had no idea their customers were being
victimized.

Authorities said a network of waiters working at the four restaurants used a
device called a skimmer to swipe customers' credit cards. By using the
device, authorities said the waiters were able to capture the customers'
credit card numbers as well as other private information about the card
owners. Then authorities said that information was used to make illegal
purchases.

NEVER EVER EVER let your credit card or license leave your sight.

http://www.google.com/search?q=resta...imming+schemes

--
Bobby G.

On 2011-06-29, Robert Green wrote:

NEVER EVER NEVER EVER let your license or your CC leave your sight. That's
when the cards are skimmed by portable scanners and your license quickly
photographed by cell phone cameras. Police are forever busting up rings of
waitstaff that earn considerable money from criminal gangs.

Geez, and this is old news. I first heard about this practice about
15 yrs ago.

nb

"Robert Green" wrote

NEVER EVER EVER let your credit card or license leave your sight.

Sorry, I don't want to leave my guests, get up and follow a server through a
labyrinthine maze back to the credit card machine. I use LifeLock, plus my
VISA allows me to not pay any disputed charge.

Werks fer me.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:


NEVER EVER NEVER EVER let your license or your CC leave your sight.

The alternative would be to starve to death. My CC leaves my sight at
least 3 times/week.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Smitty Two wrote:

"Robert Green" wrote:

NEVER EVER NEVER EVER let your license or your CC leave your sight.

The alternative would be to starve to death. My CC leaves my sight at
least 3 times/week.

Yes. One can't go through life worrying about little things. All credit
card companies will reverse fraudulent charges. Not to mention that
frequent flier miles are nice to get and I stopped carrying coins long ago.
Any place where I use cash is in even dollars.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

In article ,
Don Wiss wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Smitty Two wrote:


Yes. One can't go through life worrying about little things. All credit
card companies will reverse fraudulent charges. Not to mention that
frequent flier miles are nice to get and I stopped carrying coins long ago.
Any place where I use cash is in even dollars.

Me, too. I have absolute faith in the algorithms that they use to
ferret out fraudulent claims, largely because they freeze my card at
times even when I make the charges.
I started calling them to let them know when I was going to Florida
since entry into the Sunshine state seems to automatically offend the
computers (grin).

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote

NEVER EVER EVER let your credit card or license leave your sight.

Sorry, I don't want to leave my guests, get up and follow a server through
a
labyrinthine maze back to the credit card machine. I use LifeLock, plus
my
VISA allows me to not pay any disputed charge.

Werks fer me.

I meant to write credit card AND license. Sorry. I was in shock that
anyone would surrender both documents to a waiter/waitress and let them
disappear for a time. (Sorry Don W. - too many years reporting crime have
made me *very* paranoid. You're free to take any level of risk you're
comfortable with, but there is a possibility you're unaware of how
vulnerable the restaurant customer is to skimming.)

Let me ask you this, Steve: Would you let both your driver's license AND
your CC leave your sight in a restaurant?

I ask that because in my limited but still substantial experience,
restaurants are the absolute NEXUS of lower-than-minimum wage, transient,
possibly illegal, possibly ex-felon employees. Add a bar and you've added
potential pimping, drug dealing, gambling along with other activities that
require money. A high res image of your license is a get-out-of-jail card
for an ex-con or squint. They can use your license to convince the police
that they are you long enough to escape custody and leave you stuck paying
the bill. The criminal bill. But it's quite possible that other people
don't see restaurants in quite the same light. (-:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078488/...side-id-theft/

Malcolm Byrd was home with his two children on a Saturday night when a
knock came at the door. Three Rock County, Wis., sheriff's officers were
there with a warrant for Byrd's arrest. Cocaine possession, with intent to
distribute, it said. Byrd tried to tell them that they had the wrong man,
that it was a case of mistaken identity, that he was a victim of identity
theft. But they wouldn't listen. Instead they put him in handcuffs and drove
him away. Again. It was nothing new for Byrd, who has spent much of the
past five years trying - unsuccessfully - to talk skeptical police officers
out of arresting him. But this time, it was worse. Two days later, he was
still in jail.

I wouldn't count on VISA or LifeLock being able to reverse the physical act
of being incarcerated for 2 days nor the incredibly bad effect it can have
on your life.

The above cited article goes on to say:

There's nothing new about criminals using aliases to evade the law -
criminals often try to give their buddy's name, address, and date of birth
to dupe police. But the explosion of identity theft, and the ready
availability of stolen digital dossiers on innocent victims, makes it just
as easy for a criminal to give a stranger's personal data during an arrest.
Once police book a suspect under a fake name, that mistake can plague a
victim for life. "The alias becomes a disease to the true owner of that
character," said Sgt. Bob Berardi, head of the Identity Theft task force in
Los Angeles.

I am pretty sure (but memory loss is plaguing me) that you can request a
manual imprinter be brought to your table. VISA merchant agreements are the
product of a lot of legal man hours and contain clauses that relate to bad
experiences of unhappy merchants and customers.

Restaurants clearly are a business different from most other card
operations. That's an interesting enough question for me to call VISA today
and ask them what my options are at restaurants and whether I can request
they bring a manual imprinter to my table. What they'll say is "you are
protected from fraudulent charges" but that doesn't address what they can do
with an image of your license. I'll make a point to ask if they can demand
to take you license away, too. I doubt it. I would imagine the contracts
reads "must present or display" ID but not "surrender to server."

I agree that it's inconvenient to go to the front desk to execute the
transaction, but not much more than taking a leak. If for some reason I was
out of cash, I would take the precaution because of the steepness of the
down side. The only place I surrender my license - briefly - is at the
bank's drive-in window where I can actually see the teller for the whole
time. Bank employees are usually less likely to have a criminal record
because of the nature of their work.

But all those hassles disappear when you use the Franklin card. Cold, hard
cash. Plus, you don't leave a transaction trail in the incredibly invasive
world of customer behavior tracking. There are plenty of good places to use
credit cards. But restaurants clearly aren't your best bet because of the
seemingly endless string of skimming rings arrest stories:

http://www.google.com/search?q=resta...imming+schemes

Eight plead guilty in credit card-skimming scheme
Jun 11, 2009 ... Eight people involved in a credit card-skimming scheme
which netted more than
$700000 from customers of area restaurants pleaded guilty ...

Police Uncover Credit Card-Skimming Scheme
Mar 24, 2006 ... WASHINGTON -- Restaurants in the D.C. metropolitan area are
working with Secret
Service agents to shut down a credit card-skimming scheme, ...

May 9, 2011 ... 36000 Credit Card Numbers Stolen In Skimmer Scheme ... There
are 36000 victims,
in a major credit card skimming operation, and Orange County ...

2 Arrested In Credit Card 'Skimming' Scheme - News Story - WFTV ...
Sep 15, 2009 ... Officers are trying to track down the restaurant employees
....

Restaurant Worker Pleads Guilty in Credit Card Scheme | NBC Washington
Jul 31, 2010 ... In the summer of 2008, Ward paid two other servers she had
recruited at the
restaurant to help her in the scheme. Using credit card skimming ...

I know that people are obsessed with racking up airline miles but with what
I know about restaurants and what I see in the news, they're not an
especially safe place to use a card BECAUSE it's one of the few places where
a card does leave your sight.

As for relying on LifeLock? I wouldn't do that either:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2010/03/lifelock.shtm

LifeLock Will Pay $12 Million to Settle Charges by the FTC and 35 States
That Identity Theft Prevention and Data Security Claims Were False

LifeLock, Inc. has agreed to pay $11 million to the Federal Trade Commission
and $1 million to a group of 35 state attorneys general to settle charges
that the company used false claims to promote its identity theft protection
services, which it widely advertised by displaying the CEO's Social Security
number on the side of a truck.

Life's too short to spend 2 days in jail because I got careless with my
personal information.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:58:59 -0500, Usafretcol wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:54:42 -0400, Don Wiss wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Art Todesco wrote:

He said no one ever asks for ID, etc. either.

I recently ate at a restaurant that only took credit cards if you also gave
them a driver's license. But not to compare the signature. They brought
back the license with the card before I signed the check.

Read a copy of the merchant's agreement with the cc company. They are
forbidden to ask for any ID to use the card. The only requirement is
that the card be signed. If not signed, the card is to be considered
invalid. Read the agreement for further info.

Thanks. I just filed a complaint at:
http://www.mastercard.us/support/mer...iolations.html

Now I don't remember whether the license was just looked at or taken away
with the card. This was some months back. I do know I told my luncheon
companion that I would not eat there again because of it.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

In article ,
Don Wiss wrote:

On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:58:59 -0500, Usafretcol wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:54:42 -0400, Don Wiss wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Art Todesco wrote:

He said no one ever asks for ID, etc. either.

I recently ate at a restaurant that only took credit cards if you also gave
them a driver's license. But not to compare the signature. They brought
back the license with the card before I signed the check.

Read a copy of the merchant's agreement with the cc company. They are
forbidden to ask for any ID to use the card. The only requirement is
that the card be signed. If not signed, the card is to be considered
invalid. Read the agreement for further info.

Thanks. I just filed a complaint at:
http://www.mastercard.us/support/mer...iolations.html

Now I don't remember whether the license was just looked at or taken away
with the card. This was some months back. I do know I told my luncheon
companion that I would not eat there again because of it.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

I dunno what the merchant agreement sez, but when a merchant asks for my
ID before processing a credit card charge, I thank him. He's doing his
part to keep my account secure.

In article ,
Usafretcol wrote:

It's not for your protection that the merchant violates the agreement
they signed. It is for their protection as fraudulent use of a card
does not cost the legitimate holder a dime.

Agree that they do it for their own protection, but in the process
they're covering my ass too. And why would I care that someone I do
business with wants to protect himself from fraud? Someone upthread was
sniveling about that for no good reason that I can see.

Never had an issue with a credit card, but the recent fraudulent use of
my debit card cost me a few hours on the phone and in person at my bank,
as well as having to live without a debit card for ten days until a new
one was issued. Also had to wait six weeks for the money to be put back
into my account, once the investigation completed. AFAIC, those things
add up to costing me a hell of a lot more than a dime.

Side note: For the CC I use on a day-to-day basis, I have automatic
emails set up to notify me of any charges over a user-specified
amount. I specified $1. If anything fishy popped up, I'd know about it
PDQ.

On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 10:31:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Usafretcol wrote:

It's not for your protection that the merchant violates the agreement
they signed. It is for their protection as fraudulent use of a card
does not cost the legitimate holder a dime.

Agree that they do it for their own protection, but in the process
they're covering my ass too. And why would I care that someone I do
business with wants to protect himself from fraud? Someone upthread was
sniveling about that for no good reason that I can see.

The counter argument is that the clerk now has more information about you
(address, DoB, DL#), making it easier for him to steal your identity.

"Don Wiss" wrote in message

On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:58:59 -0500, Usafretcol wrote:

Read a copy of the merchant's agreement with the cc company. They are
forbidden to ask for any ID to use the card. The only requirement is
that the card be signed. If not signed, the card is to be considered
invalid. Read the agreement for further info.

Thanks. I just filed a complaint at:
http://www.mastercard.us/support/mer...iolations.html

Now I don't remember whether the license was just looked at or taken away
with the card. This was some months back. I do know I told my luncheon
companion that I would not eat there again because of it.

Good job! I sincerely hope that I didn't cause you any discomfort by my
response. I see lots of things that we all do and take for granted that
just aren't right. I am such a safety freak (my wife's best friend is a
safety engineer who makes me look casual about safety) that not only will I
not use cards at restaurants, but I also jot down the first few digits of a
$100 bill's serial number on a napkin before handing the cash to a waiter.

My poor departed grandmother got scammed by a clerk taking her twenty dollar
bill, walking in in the back with it, and coming back and claiming it was a
counterfeit. It wasn't and they were unloading one they took in on her
because she was old, frail and spoke English with an accent. I tell that
story to my dining companions and write the serial number fragment down so
that if the waiter comes back with a counterfeit bill, I can make a very
strong case right then and there that a switch was made. So far, so good.
I've only been scammed once at a Thai restaurant that gave me foreign coins
in change so now I even look at that closely.

My knowledge about the Mastercard/VISA rules is rusty at best, but I knew
that walking away with your card and license is just not allowed, especially
now that both card companies are being plagued with skimmers and other forms
of ID theft.

I know that in Europe, they bring an imprinter or an electronic reader to
your table so that your card never leaves your view - at least in almost all
the places I dined at. Many of the credit cards there also have an RF chip
that makes skimming quite a bit harder. I assume from that experience
that's also your right in America, but honestly, that's something I am not
sure about and it seems that you'll be finding out about.

One good reason, beyond the ID theft threat, not to hand over your ID is
that it often gets mixed up and people get the wrong cards back, sometimes
too late to do anything about it immediately because the other patrons have
already left with YOUR card.

I've known too many waiters to trust them with a burned out match, let alone
something of value to me.

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:


My knowledge about the Mastercard/VISA rules is rusty at best, but I knew
that walking away with your card and license is just not allowed, especially
now that both card companies are being plagued with skimmers and other forms
of ID theft.

Walking away with both? I can't think of a time when the wait staff
did not have to walk away to run the card in the US.

I know that in Europe, they bring an imprinter or an electronic reader to
your table so that your card never leaves your view - at least in almost all
the places I dined at. Many of the credit cards there also have an RF chip
that makes skimming quite a bit harder. I assume from that experience
that's also your right in America, but honestly, that's something I am not
sure about and it seems that you'll be finding out about.

RFID readers exist that lets a Nefarious Person walk past you with a
reader and essentially pick your pocket.


One good reason, beyond the ID theft threat, not to hand over your ID is
that it often gets mixed up and people get the wrong cards back, sometimes
too late to do anything about it immediately because the other patrons have
already left with YOUR card.

Haven't had that happen except with my best friend. We happen to both
CCs from the same company. Of course, most of that is probably on us
after the cards come back (g).

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:


My knowledge about the Mastercard/VISA rules is rusty at best, but I
knew
that walking away with your card and license is just not allowed,
especially
now that both card companies are being plagued with skimmers and other
forms
of ID theft.

Walking away with both? I can't think of a time when the wait staff
did not have to walk away to run the card in the US.

I believe that if you ask, they MUST bring an imprinter to the table but I
haven't had a chance to call VISA and confirm it. After all, they tell you
that you shouldn't let anyone else use your card. To then force you to put
it in the hands of a stranger seems a bit contrary to that advice. It's a
matter of convenience for restaurant merchants and the epidemic of
restaurant card skimming sweeping the nation could easily put an end to the
"convenience" of having a waiter you've never seen before disappear with
your card for five or ten minutes.

I know that in Europe, they bring an imprinter or an electronic reader
to
your table so that your card never leaves your view - at least in almost
all
the places I dined at. Many of the credit cards there also have an RF
chip
that makes skimming quite a bit harder. I assume from that experience
that's also your right in America, but honestly, that's something I am
not
sure about and it seems that you'll be finding out about.

RFID readers exist that lets a Nefarious Person walk past you with a
reader and essentially pick your pocket.

Only off unencrypted chips. Again it's the CC companies not wanting to
scare merchants off by requiring them to invest in expensive and safer
equipment that's driving the train in the US, AFAIK. The data capacity of a
chipped CC is far greater than the mag stripe technology and much harder to
skim. But I will agree that there's always someone building a taller
ladder.

Back in the early 80's NSA instituted a card system that allowed people to
access various secured areas based on the RFID chips. Sov spies sat outside
in the parking lot with hi-tech skimmers that could read the codes well
enough to determine who the big-wigs were. It was quickly abandoned.

So were the furnaces that burned the copious classified papers that
accumulated daily when a furnace exploded and blew almost a ton of unburned
classified data into the air at Ft. Meade. The fort's soldiers were kept
very busy for the next few days scouring the nearby woods for TS docs. They
switched to a shredding/slurry process that makes the classified waste into
a sort of paper mache that's then dried AND burned. It's hard to
reconstitute shredded goo. Details are in the book "The Puzzle Palace."

One good reason, beyond the ID theft threat, not to hand over your ID is
that it often gets mixed up and people get the wrong cards back,
sometimes
too late to do anything about it immediately because the other patrons
have
already left with YOUR card.

Haven't had that happen except with my best friend. We happen to both
CCs from the same company. Of course, most of that is probably on us
after the cards come back (g).

If *you've* had it happen once, you can pretty much bet it's happened to
other people. I got scammed once at the now defunct Hechingers. I was
tired, it was near closing and the clerk made a mistake (I think
deliberately) on the receipt. In the ensuing hubbub I forgot to get the
card back and it was used within an hour after leaving the store by the
thief. Fortunately I realized that it was missing when I went to charge
some gasoline for the trip home.

After that I thought about buying an electronic wallet that beeps if you put
it away without the missing credit card, but after than experience, I pretty
much stopped using them except for places where it's almost impossible not
to, like booking hotels and air flights. Now that the TSA has made flying a
torture, I only use them to book hotels. I may yet have to buy that wallet
as I become more and more forgetful. )-:

--
Bobby G.

In article ,
Thomas Edward wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 10:31:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Usafretcol wrote:

It's not for your protection that the merchant violates the agreement
they signed. It is for their protection as fraudulent use of a card
does not cost the legitimate holder a dime.

Agree that they do it for their own protection, but in the process
they're covering my ass too. And why would I care that someone I do
business with wants to protect himself from fraud? Someone upthread was
sniveling about that for no good reason that I can see.

One of the reasons that the credit card issuers forbid the asking of
additional ID by the user is that most requests are for a driver's
license. Many DL's carry SS#'s, DOB, and address. These are prime
items for identity theft and fraud.
Since 1969 (my 1st CC) I have never been asked for ID and I have made
charges from about $10 to one for $22,000.
If you are asked for additional ID you are being asked to participate
in breaching a civil agreement between the merchant and the CC issuer.
You could be giving your CC issuer a means to challenge a fraud claim.

There's the letter of the law and then there's what works. Many places
don't ask for my license. OTOH, there is a restaurant I frequent often
that does. This is one of those places that you order at the counter,
pay there, and then they bring your food to the table. The only thing
anyone who's ever asked for my license anywhere has ever done, is make
sure the name is the same. Happened just yesterday at the auto parts
store. I have no issue with that.

On Jun 27, 9:32*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? *Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy & pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
...
In article , Thomas Edward
wrote:
One of the reasons that the credit card issuers forbid the asking of
additional ID by the user is that most requests are for a driver's
license. Many DL's carry SS#'s, DOB, and address. These are prime
items for identity theft and fraud.
Since 1969 (my 1st CC) I have never been asked for ID and I have made
charges from about $10 to one for $22,000.

I'm asked for additional id on a regular basis.

If you are asked for additional ID you are being asked to participate
in breaching a civil agreement between the merchant and the CC issuer.
You could be giving your CC issuer a means to challenge a fraud claim.

Correct with Visa and MasterCard. And I usually decline a
request for additional id.

However, if you use other credit card types (like American
Express) the merchant may be permitted to require additional
identification.

If a waiter did ask me for both CC and license I might ask my dining
companion to help me follow him at a distance to see where he went and what
he did with the card and the license so that I could have a witness to my
citizen's arrest if I saw the waiter photographing my license with a
cellphone cam. There is no GOOD reason to take the license away. You can
*perhaps* use it to compare the signature with the signed receipt *at the
table* but walking out of sight with it is, in my mind, a sure sign of
something very rotten.

--
Bobby G.

On 7/3/2011 2:19 PM, harry wrote:
On Jun 27, 9:32 pm, wrote:
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy& pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

Harry my British friend, you keep forgetting that The U. S. is a lot
bigger than The U.K. and things like that are more difficult to change
on a national basis. I agree that we need the ability to punch in a
secret pin number of some sort for credit card purchases like we now
do when a the card is used in debit mode. My idea would give the CC
holder the feature of flagging his account voluntarily so merchants
would be instructed to ask for other ID when a purchase is made. I have
a lot of my accounts for different things setup so customer service reps
have to ask a phone caller for a password before proceeding. There is an
old form of harassment where someone angry with you could call a utility
and have your services cut off by pretending to be you. I have even
asked my commercial parts and equipment suppliers to ask anyone calling
up and posing as me to be asked for the account password before telling
them anything, including prices. ^_^

TDD

On 7/3/2011 5:39 PM, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
In , wrote:
Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy& pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

Harry my British friend, you keep forgetting that The U. S. is a lot
bigger than The U.K. and things like that are more difficult to change
on a national basis. I agree that we need the ability to punch in a
secret pin number of some sort for credit card purchases like we now
do when a the card is used in debit mode.

It doesn't help much when the crooks install skimming devices
into unattended card readers such as those in gas (petrol)
pumps. Already happening in hi-tech Sillycon Valley.


I'm referring to purchases made at the cash register, not at unattended
card readers. One of the many things I do is servicing point of sale
systems at retail stores where there are a lot of card readers that are
often called pen pads because of the touch screen where you can sign
your name with the special pen. I'm very wary of outdoor ATM machines
that are easily tampered with.

TDD

On Jul 3, 9:13*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message

...





In article , Thomas Edward
wrote:
One of the reasons that the credit card issuers forbid the asking of
additional ID by the user is that most requests are for a driver's
license. Many DL's carry SS#'s, DOB, and address. These are prime
items for identity theft and fraud.
Since 1969 (my 1st CC) I have never been asked for ID and I have made
charges from about $10 to one for $22,000.

I'm asked for additional id on a regular basis.

If you are asked for additional ID you are being asked to participate
in breaching a civil agreement between the merchant and the CC issuer.
You could be giving your CC issuer a means to challenge a fraud claim.

Correct with Visa and MasterCard. And I usually decline a
request for additional id.

However, if you use other credit card types (like American
Express) the merchant may be permitted to require additional
identification.

If a waiter did ask me for both CC and license I might ask my dining
companion to help me follow him at a distance to see where he went and what
he did with the card and the license so that I could have a witness to my
citizen's arrest if I saw the waiter photographing my license with a
cellphone cam. *There is no GOOD reason to take the license away. *You can
*perhaps* use it to compare the signature with the signed receipt *at the
table* but walking out of sight with it is, in my mind, a sure sign of
something very rotten.

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My credit card never leaves my sight. No-one else gets to handle it.
No wonder you have so much fraud.

On Jul 3, 10:06*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 7/3/2011 2:19 PM, harry wrote:

On Jun 27, 9:32 pm, *wrote:
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? *Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy& *pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

Harry my British friend, you keep forgetting that The U. S. is a lot
bigger than The U.K. and things like that are more difficult to change
on a national basis. I agree that we need the ability to punch in a
secret pin number of some sort for credit card purchases like we now
do when a the card is used in debit mode. My idea would give the CC
holder the feature of flagging his account voluntarily so merchants
would be instructed to ask for other ID when a purchase is made. I have
a lot of my accounts for different things setup so customer service reps
have to ask a phone caller for a password before proceeding. There is an
old form of harassment where someone angry with you could call a utility
and have your services cut off by pretending to be you. I have even
asked my commercial parts and equipment suppliers to ask anyone calling
up and posing as me to be asked for the account password before telling
them anything, including prices. ^_^

TDD

The system is Europe wide and trans-national. It has beenout now for
more than ten years. It save slots of money too as transactions are
automatic.
A credit card over here is worthless without the PIN number so theft
is far more difficult.
The technology is about to advance again,when a credit card can be
used as a swipe for small payments if the owner wants. The credit is
limited for this.

Your harrassment is due to technology lapses. Why do you think it's a
good idea to give a password out to anyone? It is obviously written
down/stored somewhere that is probably insecure.
Any form of ID you have can be discovered/duplicated.
We had/have people over here used to go through trash cans looking for
old electricity bills bank statements etc. They could steal your
complete identity and hence your money with scams you would never
think of.

It's not possible to get your power services cut off over here unless
there is an emergency (eg Fire). Responsibilty for the debts is
instantaneously transferred.

On Jul 4, 6:01*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 7/3/2011 5:39 PM, Malcolm Hoar wrote:





In , wrote:
Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy& * pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

Harry my British friend, you keep forgetting that The U. S. is a lot
bigger than The U.K. and things like that are more difficult to change
on a national basis. I agree that we need the ability to punch in a
secret pin number of some sort for credit card purchases like we now
do when a the card is used in debit mode.

It doesn't help much when the crooks install skimming devices
into unattended card readers such as those in gas (petrol)
pumps. Already happening in hi-tech Sillycon Valley.

I'm referring to purchases made at the cash register, not at unattended
card readers. One of the many things I do is servicing point of sale
systems at retail stores where there are a lot of card readers that are
often called pen pads because of the touch screen where you can sign
your name with the special pen. I'm very wary of outdoor ATM machines
that are easily tampered with.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, all the crook needs is a copy of your signature and an ability to
forge it?

On 7/4/2011 12:21 AM, harry wrote:
On Jul 3, 10:06 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 7/3/2011 2:19 PM, harry wrote:

On Jun 27, 9:32 pm, wrote:
If someone used your card without your permission, would that not
already be fraud? Just wonder how often a signature dispute comes up.

Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy& pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

Harry my British friend, you keep forgetting that The U. S. is a lot
bigger than The U.K. and things like that are more difficult to change
on a national basis. I agree that we need the ability to punch in a
secret pin number of some sort for credit card purchases like we now
do when a the card is used in debit mode. My idea would give the CC
holder the feature of flagging his account voluntarily so merchants
would be instructed to ask for other ID when a purchase is made. I have
a lot of my accounts for different things setup so customer service reps
have to ask a phone caller for a password before proceeding. There is an
old form of harassment where someone angry with you could call a utility
and have your services cut off by pretending to be you. I have even
asked my commercial parts and equipment suppliers to ask anyone calling
up and posing as me to be asked for the account password before telling
them anything, including prices. ^_^

TDD

The system is Europe wide and trans-national. It has beenout now for
more than ten years. It save slots of money too as transactions are
automatic.
A credit card over here is worthless without the PIN number so theft
is far more difficult.
The technology is about to advance again,when a credit card can be
used as a swipe for small payments if the owner wants. The credit is
limited for this.

Your harrassment is due to technology lapses. Why do you think it's a
good idea to give a password out to anyone? It is obviously written
down/stored somewhere that is probably insecure.
Any form of ID you have can be discovered/duplicated.
We had/have people over here used to go through trash cans looking for
old electricity bills bank statements etc. They could steal your
complete identity and hence your money with scams you would never
think of.

It's not possible to get your power services cut off over here unless
there is an emergency (eg Fire). Responsibilty for the debts is
instantaneously transferred.

I had a long talk with an insurance agent about 10 years ago in his
office when I was pricing out an insurance policy for my business.
When I finished pointing out a number of information security concerns
he was very pale as the blood had drained from his face. The next time
I met with him, he informed me that he had purchased the document
shredder I had recommended. I think everyone is aware of the need for
one these days. ^_^

TDD

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm referring to purchases made at the cash register, not at unattended
card readers. One of the many things I do is servicing point of sale
systems at retail stores where there are a lot of card readers that are
often called pen pads because of the touch screen where you can sign
your name with the special pen. I'm very wary of outdoor ATM machines
that are easily tampered with.

TDD

That is the reason I only use bank ATMs. I figure (1) security is
probably better so the chances of a skimmer are much less and (2). they
will be very anxious to keep me happy so their lousy security doesn't
get out.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 22:23:32 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Jul 4, 6:01*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 7/3/2011 5:39 PM, Malcolm Hoar wrote:





In , wrote:
Tch. How backward you Yanks are. Signatures indeed.
European credit cards have an inbuilt microprocessor. You put your
card in the slot and type in your secret PIN number. Lots of stuff
now, you buy& * pay for without reference to any store employee.

It's a problem for Yanks over here (UK) when they produce their
obsolescent cards.

Harry my British friend, you keep forgetting that The U. S. is a lot
bigger than The U.K. and things like that are more difficult to change
on a national basis. I agree that we need the ability to punch in a
secret pin number of some sort for credit card purchases like we now
do when a the card is used in debit mode.

It doesn't help much when the crooks install skimming devices
into unattended card readers such as those in gas (petrol)
pumps. Already happening in hi-tech Sillycon Valley.

I'm referring to purchases made at the cash register, not at unattended
card readers. One of the many things I do is servicing point of sale
systems at retail stores where there are a lot of card readers that are
often called pen pads because of the touch screen where you can sign
your name with the special pen. I'm very wary of outdoor ATM machines
that are easily tampered with.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, all the crook needs is a copy of your signature and an ability to
forge it?

The signature is only used in case the charge is contested. The perp has no
need to copy your signature. His will do fine.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:06:28 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm referring to purchases made at the cash register, not at unattended
card readers. One of the many things I do is servicing point of sale
systems at retail stores where there are a lot of card readers that are
often called pen pads because of the touch screen where you can sign
your name with the special pen. I'm very wary of outdoor ATM machines
that are easily tampered with.

TDD

That is the reason I only use bank ATMs. I figure (1) security is
probably better so the chances of a skimmer are much less and (2). they
will be very anxious to keep me happy so their lousy security doesn't
get out.

I never use a bank ATM. They cost too much.

In article ,
" wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:06:28 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm referring to purchases made at the cash register, not at unattended
card readers. One of the many things I do is servicing point of sale
systems at retail stores where there are a lot of card readers that are
often called pen pads because of the touch screen where you can sign
your name with the special pen. I'm very wary of outdoor ATM machines
that are easily tampered with.

TDD

That is the reason I only use bank ATMs. I figure (1) security is
probably better so the chances of a skimmer are much less and (2). they
will be very anxious to keep me happy so their lousy security doesn't
get out.

I never use a bank ATM. They cost too much.

Around these here parts, they're free if you use one from your own bank.
I use a local bank with many branches around town, and many ATM kiosks
also.