In article ,
"DGDevin" wrote:



I know two civilians who used firearms to defend themselves against violent
criminals, in one case without firing a shot, and in one case the person
holding the gun was female and a direct ancestor of mine. Depending on
whether you believe the DOJ or the NRA, somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million
times a year someone in America uses a firearm defensively. Who are you to
tell those people they have no right to self-defense?

One just yesterday in Miami. Dude was out doing some surveying in prep
for starting a Habitat for Humanity house. Three dudes came up and
demanded he give over his stuff and wallet. Pulled a gun, shot one of
them and the rest took off. (No collateral damage, either).

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

Here's how it works. I doubt you (ghost) will understand.
But maybe others will.

A very few people are violent. Most people are not violent.
A few people recognize and understand that violence is a
part of the world. When "everyone" is unarmed, the violent
people have free rein to be violent against the unarmed
people. A few people are not violent, but choose to be
armed. These are the types of people like the fellow who
came running when he heard gunshots. Non violent, armed
people will never deliberately hurt anyone. But, they will
defend themselves or others from violent people.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Ghost in The Machine"
wrote in message
...


THE ENTIRE PREMISE IS ABSURD, YOU CANNOT CONTROL KILLING
WITH A DEATH
MACHINE., ALL YOU DO IS BECOME A PROVEYOR OF DEATH YOURSELF.
PERHAPS GUNS CAN DETER CRIME AND SUCH ABUSES BUT ONLY IF
THEY ARE IN
THE RIGHT HANDS, THEREFOR THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS IS LAWFUL
AND
SUPPORTED BY THE INNOCENT MASSES...OTHER WISE IT IS JUST A
PRESCIPTION
FOR DEATH.
I KNOW IT SOUNDS DEEP, BUT THE BEST POLITICIAN THE SCHOOL OF
NO
MURDERS HAS IS NOT OF THE FLESH.
WHY PREPARE TO KILL, IF YOU ARE AGAINST DEATH BY ANY MEANS?
IT IS
BOUND TO FAIL ITS OWN GUARANTEE.

PEOPLE MUST APPLY A BETTER SOLUTION THAN WEAPONS EVOLUTION
AND
POSSESSION.

THE GUN LOBBY MUST LOSE OR THEY TO WILL BE BOUND TO DEATH.,
NOT LIFE,
LOVE AND TRUTH.
ANYONE WHO ARGUES DIFFERENT JUST WANTS TO PACK HEAT IN FEAR
OF THE
UNKOWN WHAT IFs.
SO LICENSES WILL CONTINUE TO BE ISSUED.
SADLY, Disenfranchised elements will seek out their own
protection.
WHERE HONOR PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE, FAITH IS A LUXURY THE
POOR CAN
AFFORD.
PATECUM+

The following article defines our population into
3 catagories, The Sheep (those that will not defend
themselve nor their families yet wish to deny others
that basic right to defend themselves), The Wolves
(those that prefer violence to attain that which isn't
theirs, and inflict great harm on those they prey on)
and The Sheepdogs (The warriors that go into the
night to do battle for those that would rather sleep).

SO read on, pick out the basic gist of the article as
it shows how most people are in denial.


This below was written by LTC Dave Grossman (Ret.), he is
RANGER
with a Ph.D. and has written a book "On Killing."


On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

"Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age.
It does
so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble
and worthy
things that deserve to be defended, even if it comes at a
high cost.
In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn,
hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The
question
remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for?
What is
worth living for?" - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to
the United
States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this
to
me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are
kind,
gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another
by
accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six
per
100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four
per 1,000
per year. What this means is that the vast majority of
Americans are
not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of
violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an
all-time
record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300
million
Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of
violent
crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any
given year.
Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by
repeat
offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is
considerably
less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the
situation: we may well be in the most violent times in
history, but
violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most
citizens are
kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each
other,
except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are
sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep.

To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is
soft and
gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But
the egg
cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers,
soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and
someday the
civilization they protect will grow into something
wonderful. For
now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the
predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and
the
wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe
there are
wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy?
You
better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they
are
capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend
it is
not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog.
I live
to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy
productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for
violence and
no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined
an
aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a
capacity for
violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do
you have
then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the
hero's path.
Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the
universal
human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

One career police officer wrote to me about this after
attending one
of my Bulletproof Mind training sessions:

I want to say thank you for finally shedding some light on
why it is
that I can do what I do. I always knew why I did it. I love
my
folks, even the bad ones, and had a talent that I could
return to my
community. I just couldn't put my finger on why I could wade
through
the chaos, the gore, the sadness, if given a chance try to
make it
all better, and walk right out the other side.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the
sheep,
wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in
denial, which
is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that
there is
evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can
happen,
which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers,
fire
alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an
armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of
times
more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school
violence
than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility
of
violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or
harm their
child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of
denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot
like
the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The
difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not
and will
not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog that intentionally
harms the
lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world
cannot
work any other way, at least not in a representative
democracy or a
republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant
reminder
that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he
didn't
tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or
stand at the
ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an
M-16. The
sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs,
spray
paint himself white, and go, "Baa"...... until the wolf
shows up.
Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one
lonely
sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were
big, tough
high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they
would
not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were
not bad
kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school
was
under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the
rooms and
hallways, the officers had to physically peel those
clinging,
sobbing kids off of them.

This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when
the wolf
is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11,
2001 when
the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America,
more than
ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement
officers
and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard
the
word "hero"?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about
being a
sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand
that a
sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around
out on the
perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go
bump in
the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the
young
sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs
are a
little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the
guns when
needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently.
The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for
that
day.

After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep,
that is,
most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of
those
planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I
wish I
could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have
made a
difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior
and have
truly invested yourself into warrior hood, you want to be
there. You
want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the
warrior,
but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is
that he
is able to survive and thrive in an environment that
destroys 98
percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with
individuals
convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for
serious,
predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing
law
enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they
specifically
targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive
behavior
and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big
cats do in
Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least
able to
protect itself.

However, when there were cues given by potential victims
that
indicated they would not go easily, the cons said that they
would
walk away.

If the cons sensed that the target was a "counter-predator,"
that
is, a sheepdog, they would leave him alone unless there was
no other
choice but to engage. One police officer told me that he
rode a
commuter train to work each day. One day, as was his usual,
he was
standing in the crowded car, dressed in blue jeans, T-shirt
and
jacket, holding onto a pole and reading a paperback.

At one of the stops, two street toughs boarded, shouting and
cursing
and doing every obnoxious thing possible to intimidate the
other
riders. The officer continued to read his book, though he
kept a
watchful eye on the two punks as they strolled along the
aisle
making comments to female passengers, and banging shoulders
with men
as they passed.

As they approached the officer, he lowered his novel and
made eye
contact with them. "You got a problem, man?" one of the IQ-
challenged punks asked.

"You think you're tough, or somethin'?" the other asked,
obviously
offended that this one was not shirking away from them. "As
a matter
of fact, I am tough," the officer said, calmly and with a
steady
gaze.

The two looked at him for a long moment, and then without
saying a
word, turned and moved back down the aisle to continue their
taunting of the other passengers, the sheep.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be
genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe
that
most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm
proud to
say that more and more Americans are choosing to become
sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd
Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as
you
recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who
called on his
cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about
the
hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger
planes that
had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered
the
words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal
to the
other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one
hour, a
transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes,
business
people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together
they
fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of
lives on
the ground.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with
yourself
after that?

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all
possible
evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the
thousands
of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In
nature the
sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born
that way,
and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are
not a
critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to
be. It is
a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that
is okay,
but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf
comes, you
and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a
sheepdog
there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be
one, but
the sheepdogs are going hunt you down and you will never
have rest,
safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and
walk the
warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral
decision
every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive
in that
toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the
door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.
They are
well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or
inside-the-
belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime
you go
to some form of religious service, there is a very good
chance that
a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will
never
know if there is such an individual in your place of
worship, until
the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and
during the
break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon
in
church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught
without my
gun in church."

I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me
about a
cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas
in
1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came
into the
church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He
said that
officer believed he could have saved every life that day if
he had
been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he
could do was
throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop
looked me
in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would
be to
live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police
officer
was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him
paranoid and
would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would
be
enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out
that
the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire
extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did
not work.
They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents
can happen
and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all
too
often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain.
But the
sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how
hard it
would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked
and
killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you
were
unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are
psychologically destroyed by combat because their only
defense is
denial, which is counterproductive and destructive,
resulting in
fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of
truth
when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your
gun, you
didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope
is not a
strategy.

Denial kills you a second time because even if you do
physically
survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear,
helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb
post-9/11
book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to
come to
terms with our current world situation:.. "denial can be
seductive,
but it has an insidious side effect.

For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying
it isn't
so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all
the more
unsettling".

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written
entirely
in small print, for in the long run, the denying person
knows the
truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all
aspects of
his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a
weapon and
you step outside without that weapon, then you become a
sheep,
pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can
be "on"
24/7, for a lifetime.

Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry
a
weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep
breath,
and say this to yourself... "Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a
yes-no
dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It
is a
matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject,
head-in-the-
sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few
people
exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live
somewhere
in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a
step up
that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps
toward
accepting and appreciating their warriors and the warriors
started
taking their job more seriously.

The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from
sheep hood
and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones
will
survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of
truth.

bpuharic wrote in
:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 15:00:04 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Higgs Boson" wrote in message
...
Short-term furor over assassination of a Federal judge (!) and
possible murder (hope not!) of a national legislator, along with
murder of a 9-year-old child and other innocents.

Furor will soon die down. Nothing will be done. The gun lobby will
continue to pay off the whores in Congress who defeat every attempt at
REASONABLE regulation with shrill misreadings of the 2nd Amendment.

So assault rifles and other multiple-fire devices will continue to be
sold -- to kill little Bambi in the forest, as the NRA piously
pretends.

And you can still go to a gun show and buy any lethal weapon for sale
no matter if you are a terrorist or "merely" a psychotic killer.

It's so pitifully obvious that the "men" who need lethal weapons to
prove their manhood are really nothing but scared, sick little
children inside.

HB

Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

useless today, except for the carnage it causes

over 2 MILLION DGUs per year proves you wrong.
(DGU = defensive gun use)

Every nation with "strict" gun control STILL has shootings and
murders,along with lesser crimes.
In Japan,their Yakuza make a BUSINESS of gun-running.
A Japanese mayor was shot and killed by a senior Yakuza right in public.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

bpuharic wrote in
:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 15:00:04 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Higgs Boson" wrote in message
...
Short-term furor over assassination of a Federal judge (!) and
possible murder (hope not!) of a national legislator, along with
murder of a 9-year-old child and other innocents.

Furor will soon die down. Nothing will be done. The gun lobby will
continue to pay off the whores in Congress who defeat every attempt at
REASONABLE regulation with shrill misreadings of the 2nd Amendment.

So assault rifles and other multiple-fire devices will continue to be
sold -- to kill little Bambi in the forest, as the NRA piously
pretends.

And you can still go to a gun show and buy any lethal weapon for sale
no matter if you are a terrorist or "merely" a psychotic killer.

It's so pitifully obvious that the "men" who need lethal weapons to
prove their manhood are really nothing but scared, sick little
children inside.

HB

Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

useless today, except for the carnage it causes

actually,the Second Amendment may be needed again,to restore the
Constitution per the Declaration of Independence.
(the part about "to alter or to abolish")

the way the Democrat-controlled Congress was ignoring the Constitution,and
their plans for the future may necessitate a 2nd Revolution.

SCOTUS hasn't been much better,recalling the Kelo ruling.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Jan 10, 9:47*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
People respect gun laws, like they respect laws that say
it's illegal to shoot at people. Laws against murder don't
seem to slow down the murder rate.

What slows down murder rate is more gun ownership. It seems
a paradox. There was a fellow who studied that. "Klek" was
his name. Kleck? Gary, was it? My memory is failing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"bpuharic" wrote in message

...



Ban guns like we ban drugs? *BAAAHHHHAHAHAHA.

people inject guns?

who knew!

If everybody at that event on Saturday had a gun they would still be
shooting it out and we would have many many more dead.

" wrote in
:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 16:44:21 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 1/10/2011 3:48 PM mike spake thus:

On Jan 10, 2:47 pm, Higgs Boson wrote:

It's so pitifully obvious that the "men" who need lethal weapons
to

Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one
who is responsible for the lives of others.

I'm responsible not only defending my own life, but also the life of
my family. I cannot do that with a pointy stick.

I'm sure as you write that you feel all noble and manly and stuff, but
to me it just makes you sound like a caveman.

What are the police, chopped liver?

HOW long does it take police to arrive after you've called 911?
some folks have found out the hard way that police may not get there in
time to be of any good for you. They may not come AT ALL!
They may be busy elsewhere. In the LA riots,police REFUSED to enter the
riot zone.
People had to rely on their own firearms to defend themselves.

They are *NOT* required to save your life. Only you have that
responsibility. That a good thing because you're there, they aren't.


you cannot sue police for failing to protect you.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

PLEASE HAVE CAPS LOCK REPAIRED.

I hope that's a registered disintigrator, with the proper
permit? You do realize there is no right to keep and bear
disintigrators? What would the founding fathers have
thought!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Ghost in The Machine"
wrote in message
...

THAT IS WHY I AM PACKING A DISINTEGRATOR INSTEAD.

PATECUM

I don't believe that for a second.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"
wrote in message
...

If everybody at that event on Saturday had a gun they would
still be
shooting it out and we would have many many more dead.

DGDevin wrote the following:


"bpuharic" wrote in message
...


Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

So were the parts about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the
right to a trial and so on. Do you figure all the Bill of Rights is
out of date?

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit), but....
'Arms' are a little different than they were 224 years ago. At the time,
they only had single shot muzzle loading firearms.
The subject of the other freedoms have not changed as much.


useless today, except for the carnage it causes

The Constitution contains a formula for amending it, so if you don't
like it as written, start a campaign to get it changed. In the
meantime it is the law, and you don't get to just ignore it the way
the Bush administration figured it could.


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Jan 11, 8:45*am, willshak wrote:
DGDevin wrote the following:



"bpuharic" *wrote in message
.. .

Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

So were the parts about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the
right to a trial and so on. *Do you figure all the Bill of Rights is
out of date?

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit), but....
'Arms' are a little different than they were 224 years ago. At the time,
they only had single shot muzzle loading firearms.
The subject of the other freedoms have not changed as much.



So, the ability to distribute information across the entire world in
an instant, whether from satellite TV or by individuals on their own
PC
hasn't changed much from the simple printing press?







useless today, except for the carnage it causes

The Constitution contains a formula for amending it, so if you don't
like it as written, start a campaign to get it changed. *In the
meantime it is the law, and you don't get to just ignore it the way
the Bush administration figured it could.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

In article ,
willshak wrote:

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit), but....
'Arms' are a little different than they were 224 years ago. At the time,
they only had single shot muzzle loading firearms.
The subject of the other freedoms have not changed as much.
And the first amendment was put in place when movable type was the
newest technology. ANd.. well you get the drift.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

willshak wrote in
m:

DGDevin wrote the following:


"bpuharic" wrote in message
...


Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

So were the parts about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the
right to a trial and so on. Do you figure all the Bill of Rights is
out of date?

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit), but....
'Arms' are a little different than they were 224 years ago. At the time,
they only had single shot muzzle loading firearms.
The subject of the other freedoms have not changed as much.

Well,that means that today's modern "militia weapon" would be semi and
full-auto rifles like the military uses. After all,the requirement was that
militiamen appear for muster with weapons consistent with what the military
uses.

Don't bother bringing up the strawman of WMD,SAMs,etc.

BTW,WRT free press,we've evolved to radio,TV,Internet,that were not
imagined 224 years ago.they are still covered by the First.

Also,SCOTUS has ruled the Second is an INDIVIDUAL right,not dependent on
militia membership or service.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

bpuharic wrote:

Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

useless today, except for the carnage it causes

I suggest that the 1st Amendment causes more carnage. If you consult your
copy of the Constitution, you'll find in the 1st Amendment:
* Freedom of a religious speaker to say anything he pleases
* Freedom of a speaker to incite a crowd
* Freedom of someone with a printing press (or blog) to exercise the masses

I suggest that any one of these has more potential for violence than the
right to bear arms.

RicodJour wrote:
When the "government" comes for you they won't be restricting
themselves to handguns and rifles. They've got planes, tanks and the
Bomb, not to mention chemical weapons, drones, etc., etc. But they
won't need to resort to that, as they control food, water and power
supplies.

Of course they won't resort to that, mainly because the troops would flatly
refuse to carry out such orders.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 1/10/2011 3:48 PM mike spake thus:

On Jan 10, 2:47 pm, Higgs Boson wrote:

It's so pitifully obvious that the "men" who need lethal weapons
to

Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one
who is responsible for the lives of others.

I'm responsible not only defending my own life, but also the life of
my family. I cannot do that with a pointy stick.

I'm sure as you write that you feel all noble and manly and stuff, but
to me it just makes you sound like a caveman.

What are the police, chopped liver?

Giggle.

Whatever the police are - chopped liver or holes for donuts - the one thing
they are not is where the problem is.

When I went through the police academy, one instructor hammered the theme:
"The police seldom see the perpetrator, but they always see the victim."
Experience proved him correct.

Look at the aerial shots of the Gifford shooting.

The parking lot is chock-a-block full of police cars and ambulances. Every
one of them, EVERY SINGLE ONE, arrived after the damage had been done.

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:47:17 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:

Furor will soon die down. Nothing will be done. The gun lobby will
continue to pay off the whores in Congress who defeat every attempt
at REASONABLE regulation with shrill misreadings of the 2nd
Amendment.

I'll ask you this: Why is there so little regulation government
interference in the manufacturing of guns in the U.S.?

I have an idea about this but want to know from you.

My idea: Politicians don't want to step into that swamp of Quicksand.

They may have to get a real job if they even suggest such a notion :-/

Gun manufacturing IS heavily regulated. You must obtain a permit from the
federal government, keep copious records, permanently serialize each
product, be bonded, each employee must pass an FBI background check, and the
business as a whole must comply with hundreds, if not thousands, of
regulations and endure annual inspections by the BATF.

On Jan 11, 1:59 am, Smitty Two wrote:

BUNCH OF ****ING **** WHICH I DID NOT READ BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE
JACK ****ING **** TO DO WITH HOME REPAIR.


Don't hold back, Smitty. Tell us how you really feel.

WHEN WILL YOU AND THE 32 MORONS WHO RESPONDED

And you, of course, have never responded to an OT post ...............

Right?

No matter. You are in my round file, and I don't read much of what you have
to say.

Now, are you going to morph again?

And again?

And again?

Steve

Thank you. Thems the dudes.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 21:47:29 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

People respect gun laws, like they respect laws that say
it's illegal to shoot at people. Laws against murder don't
seem to slow down the murder rate.

What slows down murder rate is more gun ownership. It seems
a paradox. There was a fellow who studied that. "Klek" was
his name. Kleck? Gary, was it? My memory is failing.

Gary Kleck:
http://www.amazon.com/Targeting-Guns...4717274&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Armed-New-Pers...4717126&sr=8-3

John Lott:
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less...4717126&sr=8-1

Criminals, like politicians, prefer to victimized
unarmed people.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"DD_BobK"
wrote in message
...

Why are there seldom (never?) these types of
shootings at a gun show, pawn shop or police
station?

Because the shooters might be crazy but they're
not stupid.

cheers
Bob

I'm pleased to hear that some parts of the USA
are still relatively crime free. My town has a similar
situation, somewhat low crime.

I'm also not sure which of my neighbors own
guns. I hope all the sane and rational ones do,
and the deranged do not. Sadly, it's likely
backwards of that.

However, the urban centers such as Wash DC
(the "crime capital" of USA) and NYC and Los
Angeles have strict gun laws and high crime rates.

Which came first, the gun laws or the crime?
to me it doesn't matter. Loosen up the gun laws
and the crime goes down (So says Gary Kleck, who
researched this.)

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"RicodJour"
wrote in message
...

As far as guns bringing down the murder rate, I don't
think it's as simple as that. There was one murder in
my hometown (population around 9,000) in something
like the past forty years. The woman was shot by, of
course, her husband. I now live one town over and I
can honestly say I don't know who the closest person
that owns a gun is. I wouldn't be surprised if it were
ten blocks away, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were
next door. It's not an issue and not a concern. I'm far
more concerned about someone being killed with a
bottle and a car than a gun. YMMV.

R

Free speech: From movable type printing presses,
to offset, to internet.
Free assembly: From walking or horse and buggy to
automobiles, airplanes, motorcycles, and mobility
scooters.
Freedom from search and siezu From log cabins
and steamer trunks with padlocks, to vaults, safes,
safe deposit boxes at the bank.

I could, and just did, make a case that the other
freedoms have seen changes. "as much" or more.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"willshak" wrote in message
m...

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit),
but.... 'Arms' are a little different than they were 224
years ago. At the time, they only had single shot
muzzle loading firearms. The subject of the other
freedoms have not changed as much.

Q: Does the second ammendmant to the Constitution
grant an individual right to keep and bear arms?

A: No. The second prohibits the government from
infringing a God given right.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...


Also,SCOTUS has ruled the Second is an INDIVIDUAL right,not
dependent on
militia membership or service.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Jan 11, 10:34*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'm pleased to hear that some parts of the USA
are still relatively crime free. My town has a similar
situation, somewhat low crime.

I'm also not sure which of my neighbors own
guns. I hope all the sane and rational ones do,
and the *deranged do not. Sadly, it's likely
backwards of that.

However, the urban centers such as Wash DC
(the "crime capital" of USA) and NYC and Los
Angeles have strict gun *laws and high crime rates.

Which came first, the gun laws or the crime?
to me it doesn't matter. Loosen up the gun laws
and the crime goes down (So says Gary Kleck, who
researched this.)

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"RicodJour"
wrote in ...

As far as guns bringing down the murder rate, I don't
think it's as simple as that. *There was one murder in
my hometown (population around 9,000) in something
like the past forty years. *The woman was shot by, of
course, her husband. *I now live one town over and I
can honestly say I don't know who the closest person
that owns a gun is. I wouldn't be surprised if it were
ten blocks away, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were
next door. *It's not an issue and not a concern. I'm far
more concerned about someone being killed with a
bottle and a car than a gun. *YMMV.

R

I AM SURE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, THE DEFINITION OF CRIME AND GUN
VIOLENCE IS ON THE SAME SIDE OF MATTERS.
DEATH.
VIOLENCE BEGETS NOTHING, IT IS A CHARACTER WITH MANY DESCENDANTS BUT
NO HIERS.
IF YOU BREED IT, THAT IS A CHOICE, NO LAW WILL MAKE MEN SAFER IN ANY
STATE.
THE WORLD IS BIG IN DECIET, EARTH IS A PLACE OF CHOICES.
MOST PEOPLE CHOOSE LIFE.
PATECUM

On Jan 11, 7:46*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The following article defines our population into
3 catagories, The Sheep (those that will not defend
themselve nor their families yet wish to deny others
that basic right to defend themselves), The Wolves
(those that prefer violence to attain that which isn't
theirs, and inflict great harm on those they prey on)
and The Sheepdogs (The warriors that go into the
night to do battle for those that would rather sleep).

SO read on, pick out the basic gist of the article as
it shows how most *people are in denial.

This below was written by LTC Dave Grossman (Ret.), he is
RANGER
with a Ph.D. and has written a book "On Killing."

On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

"Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age.
It does
so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble
and worthy
things that deserve to be defended, even if it comes at a
high cost.
In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn,
hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The
question
remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for?
What is
worth living for?" - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to
the United
States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this
to
me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are
kind,
gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another
by
accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six
per
100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four
per 1,000
per year. What this means is that the vast majority of
Americans are
not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of
violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an
all-time
record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300
million
Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of
violent
crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any
given year.
Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by
repeat
offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is
considerably
less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the
situation: we may well be in the most violent times in
history, but
violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most
citizens are
kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each
other,
except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are
sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep.

To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is
soft and
gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But
the egg
cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers,
soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and
someday the
civilization they protect will grow into something
wonderful. For
now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the
predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and
the
wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe
there are
wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy?
You
better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they
are
capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend
it is
not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog.
I live
to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy
productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for
violence and
no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined
an
aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a
capacity for
violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do
you have
then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the
hero's path.
Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the
universal
human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

One career police officer wrote to me about this after
attending one
of my Bulletproof Mind training sessions:

I want to say thank you for finally shedding some light on
why it is
that I can do what I do. I always knew why I did it. I love
my
folks, even the bad ones, and had a talent that I could
return to my
community. I just couldn't put my finger on why I could wade
through
the chaos, the gore, the sadness, if given a chance try to
make it
all better, and walk right out the other side.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the
sheep,
wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in
denial, which
is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that
there is
evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can
happen,
which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers,
fire
alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an
armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of
times
more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school
violence
than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility
of
violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or
harm their
child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of
denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot
like
the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The
difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not
and will
not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog that intentionally
harms the
lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world
cannot
work any other way, at least not in a representative
democracy or a
republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant
reminder
that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he
didn't
tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or
stand at the
ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an
M-16. The
sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs,
spray
paint himself white, and go, "Baa"...... until the wolf
shows up.
Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one
lonely
sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were
big, tough
high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they
would
not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were
not bad
kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school
was
under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the
rooms and
hallways, the officers had to physically peel those
clinging,
sobbing kids off of them.

This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when
the wolf
is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11,
2001 when
the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America,
more than
ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement
officers
and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard
the
word "hero"?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about
being a
sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand
that a
sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around
out on the
perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go
bump in
the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the
young
sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs
are a
little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the
guns when
needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently.
The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for
that
day.

After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep,
that is,
most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of
those
planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I
wish I
could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have
made a
difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior
and have
truly invested yourself into warrior hood, you want to be
there. You
want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the
warrior,
but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is
that he
is able to survive and thrive in an environment that
destroys 98
percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with
individuals
convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for
serious,
predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing
law
enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they
specifically
targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive
behavior
and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big
cats do in
Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least
able to
protect itself.

However, when there were cues given by potential victims
that
indicated they would not go easily, the cons said that they
would
walk away.

If the cons sensed that the target was a "counter-predator,"
that
is, a sheepdog, they would leave him alone unless there was
no other
choice but to engage. One police officer told me that he
rode a
commuter train to work each day. One day, as was his usual,
he was
standing in the crowded car, dressed in blue jeans, T-shirt
and
jacket, holding onto a pole and reading a paperback.

At one of the stops, two street toughs boarded, shouting and
cursing
and doing every obnoxious thing possible to intimidate the
other
riders. The officer continued to read his book, though he
kept a
watchful eye on the two punks as they strolled along the
aisle
making comments to female passengers, and banging shoulders
with men
as they passed.

As they approached the officer, he lowered his novel and
made eye
contact with them. "You got a problem, man?" one of the IQ-
challenged punks asked.

"You think you're tough, or somethin'?" the other asked,
obviously
offended that this one was not shirking away from them. "As
a matter
of fact, I am tough," the officer said, calmly and with a
steady
gaze.

The two looked at him for a long...

read more
WHAT BULL!!! MEN ARE NOT SHEEP OR WOLVES, THE MISTAKE IS ANIMAL
MAGNETISM, MEN ERR WHEN IN DOUBT.
MEN ARE NOT ANIMALS., LEST THEY BE HUNTED LIKE ONE.
PATECUM

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 07:21:08 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote
Re Gun lobby always wins:

What are the police, chopped liver?

HOW long does it take police to arrive after you've called 911?
some folks have found out the hard way that police may not get there in
time to be of any good for you. They may not come AT ALL!
They may be busy elsewhere. In the LA riots,police REFUSED to enter the
riot zone.
People had to rely on their own firearms to defend themselves.

Well said. And don't forget Katrina/N.O.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

I have a simple, perhaps overly so, personal take on the gun issue. I'd
rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it. I will
always possess a firearm in my home regardless of what ever the law is.

"tom" wrote in message
...
I have a simple, perhaps overly so, personal take on the gun issue. I'd
rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it. I will
always possess a firearm in my home regardless of what ever the law is.

There are millions of people just like you. Good for you. Don't let anyone
take that "right" away from you.

Steve

A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone. Good decision,
I'm with you. The right to keep and bear arms has already
been infringed.

What would the news media say if they had to fill out a
form, sign on the line, get permission from MICS (Media
Instant Check Center) before publishing a news paper? And
then they would need a CCW, Communications Certificate
Waiver before they could appeaer on the news.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"tom" wrote in message
...
I have a simple, perhaps overly so, personal take on the gun
issue. I'd
rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not
have it. I will
always possess a firearm in my home regardless of what ever
the law is.

That's Ok. You can go back to your safe barn,
now. No need to protest and bleat, in the presence
of real men.

The Bible defines us as sheep and goats. So, I
guess Jesus was mistaken, too. Says you!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Ghost in The Machine" wrote in
message
...
On Jan 11, 7:46 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The following article defines our population into
3 catagories, The Sheep (those that will not defend
themselve nor their families yet wish to deny others
that basic right to defend themselves),


WHAT BULL!!! MEN ARE NOT SHEEP OR
WOLVES, THE MISTAKE IS ANIMAL
MAGNETISM, MEN ERR WHEN IN DOUBT.
MEN ARE NOT ANIMALS., LEST THEY
BE HUNTED LIKE ONE.
PATECUM

In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:


Now, are you going to morph again?



I don't morph, Steve. I switched to Eternal September when my ISP
dropped usenet. I've never used any other nym.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:31:44 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:


I'll ask you this: Why is there so little regulation government
interference in the manufacturing of guns in the U.S.?

I have an idea about this but want to know from you.

My idea: Politicians don't want to step into that swamp of Quicksand.

They may have to get a real job if they even suggest such a notion :-/

Gun manufacturing IS heavily regulated. You must obtain a permit from the
federal government, keep copious records, permanently serialize each
product, be bonded, each employee must pass an FBI background check, and the
business as a whole must comply with hundreds, if not thousands, of
regulations and endure annual inspections by the BATF.


I follow you here. I'm pretty certain politicians would never jump on
board to take over and have control of gun manufacturers.

Like GM, Banks and other corporations. IMHO they are afraid of that
pesky 2nd Amendment.

I could be wrong.

On 1/11/2011 7:18 AM, wrote:
On Jan 10, 9:47 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
People respect gun laws, like they respect laws that say
it's illegal to shoot at people. Laws against murder don't
seem to slow down the murder rate.

What slows down murder rate is more gun ownership. It seems
a paradox. There was a fellow who studied that. "Klek" was
his name. Kleck? Gary, was it? My memory is failing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...



Ban guns like we ban drugs? BAAAHHHHAHAHAHA.

people inject guns?

who knew!

If everybody at that event on Saturday had a gun they would still be
shooting it out and we would have many many more dead.

The assassin would have been dead.

TDD

I'd have figured about five gunshots to be heard. Three from
the criminal. Two in return from a citizen. Dead silence for
about thirty seconds. Then, a voice speaks "OK, boys, it's
all over."

Chorus of clicking and velcro noises, as everyone else
decocks, and reholsters their arms.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...


If everybody at that event on Saturday had a gun they
would still be
shooting it out and we would have many many more dead.

The assassin would have been dead.

TDD

On Jan 11, 8:51*am, wrote:
On Jan 11, 8:45*am, willshak wrote:



DGDevin wrote the following:

"bpuharic" *wrote in message
.. .

Refer to Second Amendment of our Constitution.

written 200 years ago

So were the parts about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the
right to a trial and so on. *Do you figure all the Bill of Rights is
out of date?

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit), but....
'Arms' are a little different than they were 224 years ago. At the time,
they only had single shot muzzle loading firearms.
The subject of the other freedoms have not changed as much.

So, the ability to distribute information across the entire world in
an instant, whether from satellite TV or by individuals on their own
PC
hasn't changed much from the simple printing press?


What bothers me might be the inability to distribute information
anywhere.
If we get a massive solar destruction of satellites and power, and
then
no gasoline, and no food, no hospitals, no police or ambulance, our
neighbor might become
the worst enemy. Well, I got a single shot shotgun !!!!

greg




useless today, except for the carnage it causes

The Constitution contains a formula for amending it, so if you don't
like it as written, start a campaign to get it changed. *In the
meantime it is the law, and you don't get to just ignore it the way
the Bush administration figured it could.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

"willshak" wrote in message
m...


Disclaimer: I'm not anti-gun (I have a CCW permit), but....
'Arms' are a little different than they were 224 years ago. At the time,
they only had single shot muzzle loading firearms.
The subject of the other freedoms have not changed as much.

What makes sense to me is that firearms analogous to those owned by citizens
at the time the 2nd Amendment was passed are covered by the amendment, in
modern terms: rifles, shotguns, handguns. Just as freedom of the press is
not confined to newspapers and handbills, "muzzle loading" is irrelevant in
the sense that developing technology doesn't mean that the basic right is
available only to those precise forms in existence at the end of the 18th
century. So the usual nonsensical argument, "Oh, so everybody has a right
to own a howitzer, or how about a SCUD?" fails because those are a class of
weapons (artillery) not owned by citizens at the time of the 2nd Amendment
(with rare exceptions like the masters of civilian ocean-going vessels which
sometimes had cannon).

On 1/11/2011 10:34 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'm pleased to hear that some parts of the USA
are still relatively crime free. My town has a similar
situation, somewhat low crime.

I'm also not sure which of my neighbors own
guns. I hope all the sane and rational ones do,
and the deranged do not. Sadly, it's likely
backwards of that.

However, the urban centers such as Wash DC
(the "crime capital" of USA) and NYC and Los
Angeles have strict gun laws and high crime rates.

Which came first, the gun laws or the crime?
to me it doesn't matter. Loosen up the gun laws
and the crime goes down (So says Gary Kleck, who
researched this.)


"strict gun laws' are basically irrelevant with freedom of movement and
unrestricted travel between jurisdictions. Making DMZs of big cities
would only work if there was a perimeter around them, and everything
passing in or out was checked thoroughly.

(Yeah, I know, in theory handgun sales are controlled everywhere. But
most locations, long guns are basically sold to anyone who walks in the
door. They don't look at the IDs very closely at all.)

--
aem sends...

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...

actually,the Second Amendment may be needed again,to restore the
Constitution per the Declaration of Independence.
(the part about "to alter or to abolish")

the way the Democrat-controlled Congress was ignoring the Constitution,and
their plans for the future may necessitate a 2nd Revolution.

The Bush administration decided it could listen to your phone calls and read
your e-mails without a court order, or declare a citizen an enemy combatant
and lock him up indefinitely without a trial, did you make a peep of protest
about that? But now you're incensed that the Dems passed a law requiring
you to have health insurance in the way you already need auto insurance, and
you're echoing Sharon Angle/Tea Party claptrap that if the ballots don't
work, then maybe it's time for bullets. This cracks me up, democracy works
only if your side wins, otherwise sedition suddenly becomes a virtue, three
cheers for Tim McVeigh. What hogwash.

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:


"strict gun laws' are basically irrelevant with freedom of movement and
unrestricted travel between jurisdictions. Making DMZs of big cities
would only work if there was a perimeter around them, and everything
passing in or out was checked thoroughly.

And even that doesn't always work. Just ask Snake Plissken (grin)

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

In article ,
"DGDevin" wrote:

"J
The Bush administration decided it could listen to your phone calls and read
your e-mails without a court order,
I never have gotten a real good fix on this. My understanding is that
taps were on overseas telephones. Since there is no law or
constitutional concern about what is done outside the US, this is a
non-issue. According to a long line of court decisions, as long as a tap
on a phone is not illegal, then anybody calling that phone (even if that
phone is in the US) is fair game.

about that? But now you're incensed that the Dems passed a law requiring
you to have health insurance in the way you already need auto insurance,

Not hardly. You only need car insurance if you want a car. You have
to buy health insurance if you want to live in the US. BIG difference.

and
you're echoing Sharon Angle/Tea Party claptrap that if the ballots don't
work, then maybe it's time for bullets. This cracks me up, democracy works
only if your side wins, otherwise sedition suddenly becomes a virtue, three
cheers for Tim McVeigh. What hogwash.
WHich of course is not even remotely what they actually said.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke