The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/24/2010 4:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/23/2010 10:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Hey Mike, I worked out at The Kwajalein Missile Range back in 87 and 88,
there was a lot of telemetry going on there, did you happen to be
working in the telemetry field at the time? It's now The Ronald Reagan
Ballistic Missile Defense Test Site, I think I know why it was renamed.
There was some pretty cool stuff going on there back in the late 80's
and I'll bet there is some even cooler stuff going on there now. And
speaking of cool, there was a good sized sat dish with a cryo cooled
LNA or LNB right near my living quarters. I loved it out in the islands.

No, I was in that field in the late '90s and early '00s, until my
health failed. Did you use any equipment from Microdyne? They were
still supplying parts& upgrades for the 1100 series they built during
that era. The 1200 series was still in production, along with the
700/1620 series, and the 1400 series. I worked on the launch of their
RCB2000/DR2000 series to move it from prototype to production ready.

I wasn't working on any of the missile systems, I was working for a
contractor building facilities. The only electronic systems I worked
on were the office phone system, the two way radios, any control
problems, access control, Halon fire suppression system, of course,
any of the guys having a problem with a TV, VCR or tape player asked
for my help. I had to rebuild the voltage regulator for the 20kw gen
set on our crew boat. I took it to the TV repair shop there on the
island and found an FET from a TV that worked in the regulator and
had the generator back up and running. The gen set ran a compressor
for the air starters on the twin 12 cylinder supercharged Detroit
Diesel engines. The smart ass captain liked to start those monsters
when I was down in the engine room checking things out. I kept ear
plugs handy, especially whenever I had to go to any of the power
plants. I loved it out there and would have stayed if I hadn't been
transferred to a 20 man housing unit that had 19 smokers living in it.


That's like sharing a four bay room in Army barracks with three
slobs.

Luckily, most of my time after basic I had a one man room. It only
took 15 minutes a week to keep it clean enough to pass all inspections.
It was funny, at Ft. Rucker. I was an E2, but in a slot for an E5, so I
managed to get the key for the assigned one man room. It was a real
mess, and took about two weeks to clean all the old floor wax off the
floor, baseboards and even the walls. A month later we were visited by
a bunch of generals from Washington. One asked my captain who's room
they were in, then said it was the cleanest he'd seen on the whole
trip. When he found out it belonged to an E2 he got mad, then laughed
and said, Anyone who spends enough time to keep his quarters that neat
could keep the room. I barely spent 15 minutes a week. Luckily, he
didn't see the coil of coax hanging outside my window. I worked in the
Weathervision system, which included 17 Cable TV systems. The man that
maintained the civilian cable TV on base gave me permission to run a
drop to my room in the barracks when he caught me repairing the damaged
drop to our dayroom. He figured that if I had cable, I would keep the
two paid drops working for him.



A friend of mine studied electrical engineering at Auburn back in the
1960's and lived in a dorm with a bunch of other typical college boys
of the era, no coed in ancient times. The big thing at the time was
the big AM station in the state playing pop music all day. When my
friend wanted to sleep or study, he would switch on his low power AM
transmitter he had hooked to the dorm's rain gutters and silence all
the radios in the dorm. When he grew up, he wound up being in charge
of the communications division of a major utility company.


Later, I worked at a military TV station, before leaving the
service. Years later I was an engineer at a UHF TV station with a 5 MW
EIRP signal on a 1749 foot tower near the east coast of Central Florida.


If you could get close enough to the antenna, you could cook hot dogs,
in about a tenth of a second. I've tried to explain to a lot of folks
that an AM station tower IS the antenna and it sits on insulators. I
remember a couple of idiots climbing the TV towers around here. RF is
so much fun to play with. 8-)


One of the tower crew found the hairline crack in our waveguide the
hard way. He leaned back against it and had a 12 inch long RF burn
across his ass and lower back. There was about 190 KW of UHF RF (Ch 55)
flowing inside that brass duct. It only took a few seconds before he
felt it.




--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 9/24/2010 4:18 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve wrote:

"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 9/23/2010 9:36 AM, David wrote:


wrote in message
...



My work is aboard the International Space Station, while yours is
rusting in moldy basements, and your industry has a reputation worse
that TV repairmen used to.

I am not a rocket surgen, but my company has been working for
excellence for many years. I am *not* "billy-joe-jim-bob". Yes there
are a lot of hacks out there, but there are some true professionals
out there too. I keep trying to help change the rep that HVAC
industry
has, and raise the bar in my area. FWIW, my company has all but
stopped advertising in the yellow pages, it doesn't need to. 90% of
our new customers are all from word of mouth referals.

Hello Steve,
It is fortunate for the HVAC industry that the general public does not
read the alt.hvac newsgroup. The regulars there seem to know more
about
their reproductive organs and lower digestive tract than anything
about
HVAC. I remember a reply from a homeowner asking a question and the
slew
of BS that came back was amazing. One memorable reply came from a
regular poster (pjm) that said this was group for "professionals only"
and homemoaners (sic) were not welcome here. Well my sampling of
"professionals" on that group does not speak well of their competence
and people skills. They do not seem to realize that basic
refrigeration
and heating is quite simple. The complexity comes from the newer
electronic controls and they know nothing about that other than swap
things until it works. A case in point was a neighbor that called a
professional because the blower motor in the furnace had stopped
working. The "pro" said the motor controller was bad, the board was no
longer available, so both the motor and controller needed replacing
for
$800. The neighbor is a bit of a handyman so I asked him to bring the
control board to my house and I would look it over. One look and it
was
obvious that there was a bad solder joint on the line input common
mode
choke coil and a bit of solder restored it completely. I will bet not
one in a hundred of these "pros" even know what a common mode choke
is.

David


The majority of HVAC techs have no idea how to do board level repairs.

Some of us do, but its not cost effective to do so.

I find cold solder joints all the time and am able to get a system up
and running without having to replace an expensive circuit board. The
catch is, how much time will it take to repair a one hundred dollar
circuit board vs $85.00 per hour.---- it's a simplified example.
Don't yap about how expensive most control boards are. Ask an HVAC
tech what wave soldering is and he/she/it smile and wave at you.

No, control boards are not free, and yes, some of us *DO* know what wave
soldering is.


Reflow soldering is a lot more common these days. With so much
surface mount, wave solder has lost a lot of market share.



I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.

even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor, serial
controlled, etc.

Steve wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 9/24/2010 4:18 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve wrote:

"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 9/23/2010 9:36 AM, David wrote:


wrote in message
...



My work is aboard the International Space Station, while yours is
rusting in moldy basements, and your industry has a reputation worse
that TV repairmen used to.

I am not a rocket surgen, but my company has been working for
excellence for many years. I am *not* "billy-joe-jim-bob". Yes there
are a lot of hacks out there, but there are some true professionals
out there too. I keep trying to help change the rep that HVAC
industry
has, and raise the bar in my area. FWIW, my company has all but
stopped advertising in the yellow pages, it doesn't need to. 90% of
our new customers are all from word of mouth referals.

Hello Steve,
It is fortunate for the HVAC industry that the general public does not
read the alt.hvac newsgroup. The regulars there seem to know more
about
their reproductive organs and lower digestive tract than anything
about
HVAC. I remember a reply from a homeowner asking a question and the
slew
of BS that came back was amazing. One memorable reply came from a
regular poster (pjm) that said this was group for "professionals only"
and homemoaners (sic) were not welcome here. Well my sampling of
"professionals" on that group does not speak well of their competence
and people skills. They do not seem to realize that basic
refrigeration
and heating is quite simple. The complexity comes from the newer
electronic controls and they know nothing about that other than swap
things until it works. A case in point was a neighbor that called a
professional because the blower motor in the furnace had stopped
working. The "pro" said the motor controller was bad, the board was no
longer available, so both the motor and controller needed replacing
for
$800. The neighbor is a bit of a handyman so I asked him to bring the
control board to my house and I would look it over. One look and it
was
obvious that there was a bad solder joint on the line input common
mode
choke coil and a bit of solder restored it completely. I will bet not
one in a hundred of these "pros" even know what a common mode choke
is.

David


The majority of HVAC techs have no idea how to do board level repairs.

Some of us do, but its not cost effective to do so.

I find cold solder joints all the time and am able to get a system up
and running without having to replace an expensive circuit board. The
catch is, how much time will it take to repair a one hundred dollar
circuit board vs $85.00 per hour.---- it's a simplified example.
Don't yap about how expensive most control boards are. Ask an HVAC
tech what wave soldering is and he/she/it smile and wave at you.

No, control boards are not free, and yes, some of us *DO* know what wave
soldering is.


Reflow soldering is a lot more common these days. With so much
surface mount, wave solder has lost a lot of market share.



I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.

even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor, serial
controlled, etc.


I was testing and repairing 16 layer reflowed boards that cost over
$8,000 for the components. If the board house was careless handling the
blanks you could have over 1000 bad solder joints. I spent a lot of
time looking through a stereo microscope, with a hot soldering iron in
one hand.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.


The only HVAC PC boards I've seen lately are all over eight years
old, but the electronics industry, in general has moved from through
hole to SMD to reduce assembly & component costs.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 9/24/2010 9:26 PM, Steve wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 9/24/2010 4:18 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve wrote:

"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 9/23/2010 9:36 AM, David wrote:


wrote in message
...



My work is aboard the International Space Station, while yours is
rusting in moldy basements, and your industry has a reputation worse
that TV repairmen used to.

I am not a rocket surgen, but my company has been working for
excellence for many years. I am *not* "billy-joe-jim-bob". Yes there
are a lot of hacks out there, but there are some true professionals
out there too. I keep trying to help change the rep that HVAC
industry
has, and raise the bar in my area. FWIW, my company has all but
stopped advertising in the yellow pages, it doesn't need to. 90% of
our new customers are all from word of mouth referals.

Hello Steve,
It is fortunate for the HVAC industry that the general public does not
read the alt.hvac newsgroup. The regulars there seem to know more
about
their reproductive organs and lower digestive tract than anything
about
HVAC. I remember a reply from a homeowner asking a question and the
slew
of BS that came back was amazing. One memorable reply came from a
regular poster (pjm) that said this was group for "professionals only"
and homemoaners (sic) were not welcome here. Well my sampling of
"professionals" on that group does not speak well of their competence
and people skills. They do not seem to realize that basic
refrigeration
and heating is quite simple. The complexity comes from the newer
electronic controls and they know nothing about that other than swap
things until it works. A case in point was a neighbor that called a
professional because the blower motor in the furnace had stopped
working. The "pro" said the motor controller was bad, the board was no
longer available, so both the motor and controller needed replacing
for
$800. The neighbor is a bit of a handyman so I asked him to bring the
control board to my house and I would look it over. One look and it
was
obvious that there was a bad solder joint on the line input common
mode
choke coil and a bit of solder restored it completely. I will bet not
one in a hundred of these "pros" even know what a common mode choke
is.

David


The majority of HVAC techs have no idea how to do board level repairs.

Some of us do, but its not cost effective to do so.

I find cold solder joints all the time and am able to get a system up
and running without having to replace an expensive circuit board. The
catch is, how much time will it take to repair a one hundred dollar
circuit board vs $85.00 per hour.---- it's a simplified example.
Don't yap about how expensive most control boards are. Ask an HVAC
tech what wave soldering is and he/she/it smile and wave at you.

No, control boards are not free, and yes, some of us *DO* know what wave
soldering is.


Reflow soldering is a lot more common these days. With so much
surface mount, wave solder has lost a lot of market share.



I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.

even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor, serial
controlled, etc.



Is there a particular brand you install? Me and GB have been installing
Goodman and to tell the truth, I haven't bothered examining the darned
circuit boards on the newer stuff we install. We have a buddy who's a
Standard dealer and he charges a pant-load for his gear and $100/hr. I
don't do anywhere near the volume of HVAC work you do so I'd have to
defer to your experience. Hell, I was so tired when I got in today, I
couldn't stand up for long and had to postpone fixing a leak on a very
old Carrier heat pump. I know that sucker has no surface mount devices
on its control board, it's older than the girls chase. 8-)

TDD

On 9/24/2010 11:32 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.


The only HVAC PC boards I've seen lately are all over eight years
old, but the electronics industry, in general has moved from through
hole to SMD to reduce assembly& component costs.



I do more repair than new installation and there are scads of universal
replacement controls at the supply houses that are a mix of
technologies. The board may look very similar to the OEM board but will
have parts moved around with surface mount devices peeking out from
between the caps and relays. I'm getting to the point where I can't see
too well anymore so the through the hole stuff is a lot easier for me to
fix. I got tickled when somebody gave me a dead motherboard for a
computer system and the only problem was a blown fuse and PPTC that were
the size of a half grain of rice. 8-)

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I do more repair than new installation and there are scads of universal
replacement controls at the supply houses that are a mix of
technologies. The board may look very similar to the OEM board but will
have parts moved around with surface mount devices peeking out from
between the caps and relays. I'm getting to the point where I can't see
too well anymore so the through the hole stuff is a lot easier for me to
fix. I got tickled when somebody gave me a dead motherboard for a
computer system and the only problem was a blown fuse and PPTC that were
the size of a half grain of rice. 8-)


Keep your eyes open for a good stereo microscope. I preferred the
B&L I had on my bench at Microdyne. Also, I liked the 'Multicore .015"
rework solder. Surface mount isn't going away for small parts. A look
at the Digikey or Mouser catalogs over the years will show that the
availability of leaded parts is dropping every year. The same, with
components using real solder without tin whisker problems.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 9/25/2010 12:30 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve wrote:

"The Daring wrote in message
(snip)
even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor, serial
controlled, etc.


I was testing and repairing 16 layer reflowed boards that cost over
$8,000 for the components. If the board house was careless handling the
blanks you could have over 1000 bad solder joints. I spent a lot of
time looking through a stereo microscope, with a hot soldering iron in
one hand.


And nobody sees a basic problem with design philosophy here? Control
circuits for an HVAC system need to be closer to an anvil, than to
avionics, to meet design lifespan if nothing else. And they need to be
field-repairable. If it can't be at component level, there needs to be
an industry standard for board interfaces and mounting, so that the unit
cost of boards can be low enough to repair at board-swap level. (Yeah, I
know, there are always plenty of standards to choose from.)

I know nothing about HVAC beyond 'no worky - pick up phone'. But I have
worked in computers at the field support interface for 20-some years,
and have run into similar issues. Engineers in that field violate KISS
principle on a regular basis as well, and component level repair
vanished years ago.

--
aem sends...

"Steve" wrote in message
...

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 9/24/2010 4:18 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve wrote:

"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 9/23/2010 9:36 AM, David wrote:


wrote in message
...



My work is aboard the International Space Station, while yours is
rusting in moldy basements, and your industry has a reputation
worse
that TV repairmen used to.

I am not a rocket surgen, but my company has been working for
excellence for many years. I am *not* "billy-joe-jim-bob". Yes there
are a lot of hacks out there, but there are some true professionals
out there too. I keep trying to help change the rep that HVAC
industry
has, and raise the bar in my area. FWIW, my company has all but
stopped advertising in the yellow pages, it doesn't need to. 90% of
our new customers are all from word of mouth referals.

Hello Steve,
It is fortunate for the HVAC industry that the general public does
not
read the alt.hvac newsgroup. The regulars there seem to know more
about
their reproductive organs and lower digestive tract than anything
about
HVAC. I remember a reply from a homeowner asking a question and the
slew
of BS that came back was amazing. One memorable reply came from a
regular poster (pjm) that said this was group for "professionals
only"
and homemoaners (sic) were not welcome here. Well my sampling of
"professionals" on that group does not speak well of their competence
and people skills. They do not seem to realize that basic
refrigeration
and heating is quite simple. The complexity comes from the newer
electronic controls and they know nothing about that other than swap
things until it works. A case in point was a neighbor that called a
professional because the blower motor in the furnace had stopped
working. The "pro" said the motor controller was bad, the board was
no
longer available, so both the motor and controller needed replacing
for
$800. The neighbor is a bit of a handyman so I asked him to bring the
control board to my house and I would look it over. One look and it
was
obvious that there was a bad solder joint on the line input common
mode
choke coil and a bit of solder restored it completely. I will bet not
one in a hundred of these "pros" even know what a common mode choke
is.

David


The majority of HVAC techs have no idea how to do board level repairs.

Some of us do, but its not cost effective to do so.

I find cold solder joints all the time and am able to get a system up
and running without having to replace an expensive circuit board. The
catch is, how much time will it take to repair a one hundred dollar
circuit board vs $85.00 per hour.---- it's a simplified example.
Don't yap about how expensive most control boards are. Ask an HVAC
tech what wave soldering is and he/she/it smile and wave at you.

No, control boards are not free, and yes, some of us *DO* know what
wave
soldering is.


Reflow soldering is a lot more common these days. With so much
surface mount, wave solder has lost a lot of market share.



I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.

even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother
boards in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount
stuff, double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor,
serial controlled, etc.
EMI split units are notorious for bad electronics and quirky on again, off
again failure modes.

I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.

even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother
boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor,
serial
controlled, etc.



Is there a particular brand you install? Me and GB have been installing
Goodman and to tell the truth, I haven't bothered examining the darned
circuit boards on the newer stuff we install. We have a buddy who's a
Standard dealer and he charges a pant-load for his gear and $100/hr. I
don't do anywhere near the volume of HVAC work you do so I'd have to
defer to your experience. Hell, I was so tired when I got in today, I
couldn't stand up for long and had to postpone fixing a leak on a very
old Carrier heat pump. I know that sucker has no surface mount devices
on its control board, it's older than the girls chase. 8-)

I install the Rheem "Prestege" -JEZ series almost exclusively for both A/C
and heat pump condensers. My entry level systems use a 13SEER condenser, but
with the correct coil and air handler/furnace combination, the system is
rated 14SEER or better. My "premium" systems are 16+SEER, 2 stage, serial
controlled systems.
FWIW, I have not installed an R22 system in 5 years, only R410a.

aemeijers wrote:

On 9/25/2010 12:30 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve wrote:

"The Daring wrote in message
(snip)
even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor, serial
controlled, etc.


I was testing and repairing 16 layer reflowed boards that cost over
$8,000 for the components. If the board house was careless handling the
blanks you could have over 1000 bad solder joints. I spent a lot of
time looking through a stereo microscope, with a hot soldering iron in
one hand.


And nobody sees a basic problem with design philosophy here? Control
circuits for an HVAC system need to be closer to an anvil, than to
avionics, to meet design lifespan if nothing else.


Sigh. It would be great if HVAC electronics were built to Avionics
standards. For one thing, Avionics is 100% exempt from lead free
solder. For another, equipment design is always at the 'Mission
Critical' level. Avionics are built for long life, with little or no
maintenance. It is usually there for the life of the aircraft, unless
that series undergoes an across the board redesign. Of course, it would
double or triple the retail costs of the controller.

One thing I've seen in a lot of failed programmable thermostats is
that they use slide switches that are installed before the boards are
cleaned. Then the board cleaner washes out all of the contact
lubricant.


And they need to be
field-repairable. If it can't be at component level, there needs to be
an industry standard for board interfaces and mounting, so that the unit
cost of boards can be low enough to repair at board-swap level. (Yeah, I
know, there are always plenty of standards to choose from.)


How do you propose to do that? If you make an interface to handle
any possibility, you add a lot of costs. Surface Mount is actually
easier to repair, if you know what you are doing and less susceptible to
board damage if you know how to solder.


If you are a hack at electronics, then all bets are off.


I know nothing about HVAC beyond 'no worky - pick up phone'. But I have
worked in computers at the field support interface for 20-some years,
and have run into similar issues. Engineers in that field violate KISS
principle on a regular basis as well, and component level repair
vanished years ago.


Strange, because I still repair some motherboards. A lot of failures
are bad low ESR electrolytics, or cracked ROHS solder joints. Until I
ended up 100% disabled, I repaired 68340 based embedded controllers at
the Microdyne factory. I also tested and repaired all of the boards in
our dual receiver DSP based RCB-2000 telemetry products.

Contrary to popular belief, having schematics isn't always a help.
OTOH, having the datasheets for the ICs is.

A lot of techs have no idea why some things are done. For instance,
I see people bitch about 'Those morons put the electrolytics too damn
close to the CPU! Why can't the *******s put them on a corner of the
motherboard, away from the heat?" Well, they carry a high ripple
current, so they are self heating. The CPU us a high current, low
voltage device, so the regulator has to be close to the load. Long
traces would radiate a lot of EMI. A lot of power would be wasted
heating the copper traces, and the inductance would screw up the
regulation.

Buy a ESR meter and test the electrolytics on those boards. A little
ripple can cause all kinds of problems. 30 years ago I was doing bulk
repairs on 'Linear' brand garage door opener controls. Every one of
them needed new electrolytics. They were always mounted in hot
locations, and powered 24/7. Similar to the environment in HVAC
systems.

One thing that makes it hard to repair those boards is that the techs
don't use logical troubleshooting methods. They use hunches, or just
shotgun a board till it starts working, or they destroy it with sloppy
soldering or installing parts wrong.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 9/25/2010 6:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I do more repair than new installation and there are scads of universal
replacement controls at the supply houses that are a mix of
technologies. The board may look very similar to the OEM board but will
have parts moved around with surface mount devices peeking out from
between the caps and relays. I'm getting to the point where I can't see
too well anymore so the through the hole stuff is a lot easier for me to
fix. I got tickled when somebody gave me a dead motherboard for a
computer system and the only problem was a blown fuse and PPTC that were
the size of a half grain of rice. 8-)


Keep your eyes open for a good stereo microscope. I preferred the
B&L I had on my bench at Microdyne. Also, I liked the 'Multicore .015"
rework solder. Surface mount isn't going away for small parts. A look
at the Digikey or Mouser catalogs over the years will show that the
availability of leaded parts is dropping every year. The same, with
components using real solder without tin whisker problems.



I just fixed a ViewSonic LCD monitor for a customer's POS system and
it turned out to be a common problem with a 16 volt 1000 uf cap on
the power supply board. Looking closely at the board, I saw another
pair of holes for a parallel electrolytic. I soldered in two 470 uf
35 volt caps in place of the original single since they fit the space.
The customer has had damage to various electronic gear due to power
surges and I've had to replace the KSU for his phone system when the
POTS line ports were blown. I don't understand why designers will
take such a cheap route when they know there's a possibility for a
piece of equipment to be subjected to aberrant voltages in the power
source for many of the end users. I remember how the original IBM
PC's were built like tanks and you paid a price for that robustness
but now so much of the electronics we get these days is a commodity
item and the penny pinching paper pushers (hey, I made a rhyme) want
engineers to spit out products as cheaply as possible. It's amazing
how just a few more dollars spent on an electrical/electronic item
will extend the life of that product.

TDD

On 9/25/2010 7:26 AM, Steve wrote:
I don't see that much surface mount on the majority of HVAC control
boards. I haven't seen the latest supercalafragilistic uber-efficient
HVAC system control boards but the simple ones are mostly single or
dual layer with components having leads soldered through holes. I
don't have customers who can afford that really high end stuff for
their homes.

even the 13SEER condensers and heat pumps that I install have mother
boards
in them, as do the gas furnaces I install. Lots of surface mount stuff,
double layer boards, optical latching relay instead of a contactor,
serial
controlled, etc.



Is there a particular brand you install? Me and GB have been installing
Goodman and to tell the truth, I haven't bothered examining the darned
circuit boards on the newer stuff we install. We have a buddy who's a
Standard dealer and he charges a pant-load for his gear and $100/hr. I
don't do anywhere near the volume of HVAC work you do so I'd have to
defer to your experience. Hell, I was so tired when I got in today, I
couldn't stand up for long and had to postpone fixing a leak on a very
old Carrier heat pump. I know that sucker has no surface mount devices
on its control board, it's older than the girls chase. 8-)

I install the Rheem "Prestege" -JEZ series almost exclusively for both A/C
and heat pump condensers. My entry level systems use a 13SEER condenser, but
with the correct coil and air handler/furnace combination, the system is
rated 14SEER or better. My "premium" systems are 16+SEER, 2 stage, serial
controlled systems.
FWIW, I have not installed an R22 system in 5 years, only R410a.



Me and my homey works fo mostly po folks dat doan has a lots O money. We
found a new 3 ton R22 heat pump condensing unit at Johnstone this Spring
to replace an old unit for a customer who's air handler and evaporator
were in good shape. This Summer, we replaced an old R22 system for a
friend with a new R410a system and we darn near toasted to death. It was
in the middle of the hottest Summer we've had in a long time with temps
in the 100°+ range for many days without end. I didn't have to pee for
8 hours, it all came out of thousands of tiny holes in my skin. 8-)

TDD

This Summer, we replaced an old R22 system for a
friend with a new R410a system and we darn near toasted to death. It was
in the middle of the hottest Summer we've had in a long time with temps
in the 100°+ range for many days without end. I didn't have to pee for
8 hours, it all came out of thousands of tiny holes in my skin. 8-)

TDD

Welcome to my world :-)

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/25/2010 6:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I do more repair than new installation and there are scads of universal
replacement controls at the supply houses that are a mix of
technologies. The board may look very similar to the OEM board but will
have parts moved around with surface mount devices peeking out from
between the caps and relays. I'm getting to the point where I can't see
too well anymore so the through the hole stuff is a lot easier for me to
fix. I got tickled when somebody gave me a dead motherboard for a
computer system and the only problem was a blown fuse and PPTC that were
the size of a half grain of rice. 8-)


Keep your eyes open for a good stereo microscope. I preferred the
B&L I had on my bench at Microdyne. Also, I liked the 'Multicore .015"
rework solder. Surface mount isn't going away for small parts. A look
at the Digikey or Mouser catalogs over the years will show that the
availability of leaded parts is dropping every year. The same, with
components using real solder without tin whisker problems.



I just fixed a ViewSonic LCD monitor for a customer's POS system and
it turned out to be a common problem with a 16 volt 1000 uf cap on
the power supply board. Looking closely at the board, I saw another
pair of holes for a parallel electrolytic. I soldered in two 470 uf
35 volt caps in place of the original single since they fit the space.


Were they low ESR 105° C or 125° C parts?


The customer has had damage to various electronic gear due to power
surges and I've had to replace the KSU for his phone system when the
POTS line ports were blown.


Add some Endeco protection to the incoming lines. The do an amazing
job. I have nothing to do with that company, other than the dfact that
some freinds of mine bought their old factory and moved into it a few
months ago.


I don't understand why designers will
take such a cheap route when they know there's a possibility for a
piece of equipment to be subjected to aberrant voltages in the power
source for many of the end users. I remember how the original IBM
PC's were built like tanks and you paid a price for that robustness
but now so much of the electronics we get these days is a commodity
item and the penny pinching paper pushers (hey, I made a rhyme) want
engineers to spit out products as cheaply as possible. It's amazing
how just a few more dollars spent on an electrical/electronic item
will extend the life of that product.


It's commony reffered to as 'The race to the bottom', since people are
price driven.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On 9/25/2010 8:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/25/2010 6:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I do more repair than new installation and there are scads of universal
replacement controls at the supply houses that are a mix of
technologies. The board may look very similar to the OEM board but will
have parts moved around with surface mount devices peeking out from
between the caps and relays. I'm getting to the point where I can't see
too well anymore so the through the hole stuff is a lot easier for me to
fix. I got tickled when somebody gave me a dead motherboard for a
computer system and the only problem was a blown fuse and PPTC that were
the size of a half grain of rice. 8-)


Keep your eyes open for a good stereo microscope. I preferred the
B&L I had on my bench at Microdyne. Also, I liked the 'Multicore .015"
rework solder. Surface mount isn't going away for small parts. A look
at the Digikey or Mouser catalogs over the years will show that the
availability of leaded parts is dropping every year. The same, with
components using real solder without tin whisker problems.



I just fixed a ViewSonic LCD monitor for a customer's POS system and
it turned out to be a common problem with a 16 volt 1000 uf cap on
the power supply board. Looking closely at the board, I saw another
pair of holes for a parallel electrolytic. I soldered in two 470 uf
35 volt caps in place of the original single since they fit the space.


Were they low ESR 105° C or 125° C parts?



They were probably 105° standard aluminum electrolytic consumer grade.
I just wanted to install a higher voltage rated part.

The customer has had damage to various electronic gear due to power
surges and I've had to replace the KSU for his phone system when the
POTS line ports were blown.


Add some Endeco protection to the incoming lines. The do an amazing
job. I have nothing to do with that company, other than the dfact that
some freinds of mine bought their old factory and moved into it a few
months ago.



On the AT&T termination, there are usually gas tube arresters in
commercial buildings. There are two different types commonly out
in the field. I often add an additional protector with a solid
state unit in front of the phone systems. The carrier will accept
either the gas tube or Silicon Avalanche Hybrid modules. If I have
to, I add fuse modules in place of shorting clips on the 66 blocks
for systems that get hit often. It's not unusual for me to have to
argue with the phone company that the a module is blown at their
central office. They have to send a tech out to check it on my end.
I once called customer service to complain about a longitudinal
imbalance on my line because a sewer crew had hit the buried cable
to my building and the fools just wrapped tape around it and tossed
it back in the trench. The CSR said "Sir, we can't get involved in
your personal affairs." I said "You don't understand, my phone line
was damaged by a BACKHOE, that's a big digging machine, not a woman."


I don't understand why designers will
take such a cheap route when they know there's a possibility for a
piece of equipment to be subjected to aberrant voltages in the power
source for many of the end users. I remember how the original IBM
PC's were built like tanks and you paid a price for that robustness
but now so much of the electronics we get these days is a commodity
item and the penny pinching paper pushers (hey, I made a rhyme) want
engineers to spit out products as cheaply as possible. It's amazing
how just a few more dollars spent on an electrical/electronic item
will extend the life of that product.


It's commony reffered to as 'The race to the bottom', since people are
price driven.



Heck, I'd like to have more than one quality choice. 8-)

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/25/2010 8:54 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/25/2010 6:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I do more repair than new installation and there are scads of universal
replacement controls at the supply houses that are a mix of
technologies. The board may look very similar to the OEM board but will
have parts moved around with surface mount devices peeking out from
between the caps and relays. I'm getting to the point where I can't see
too well anymore so the through the hole stuff is a lot easier for me to
fix. I got tickled when somebody gave me a dead motherboard for a
computer system and the only problem was a blown fuse and PPTC that were
the size of a half grain of rice. 8-)


Keep your eyes open for a good stereo microscope. I preferred the
B&L I had on my bench at Microdyne. Also, I liked the 'Multicore .015"
rework solder. Surface mount isn't going away for small parts. A look
at the Digikey or Mouser catalogs over the years will show that the
availability of leaded parts is dropping every year. The same, with
components using real solder without tin whisker problems.



I just fixed a ViewSonic LCD monitor for a customer's POS system and
it turned out to be a common problem with a 16 volt 1000 uf cap on
the power supply board. Looking closely at the board, I saw another
pair of holes for a parallel electrolytic. I soldered in two 470 uf
35 volt caps in place of the original single since they fit the space.


Were they low ESR 105° C or 125° C parts?



They were probably 105° standard aluminum electrolytic consumer grade.
I just wanted to install a higher voltage rated part.


You have to be careful if they are low ESR parts. Higher voltage
caps have a higher ESR.


The customer has had damage to various electronic gear due to power
surges and I've had to replace the KSU for his phone system when the
POTS line ports were blown.


Add some Endeco protection to the incoming lines. The do an amazing
job. I have nothing to do with that company, other than the dfact that
some freinds of mine bought their old factory and moved into it a few
months ago.



On the AT&T termination, there are usually gas tube arresters in
commercial buildings. There are two different types commonly out
in the field. I often add an additional protector with a solid
state unit in front of the phone systems. The carrier will accept
either the gas tube or Silicon Avalanche Hybrid modules. If I have
to, I add fuse modules in place of shorting clips on the 66 blocks
for systems that get hit often.


Endeco makes the plug in protectors, as well as wall mount. I think
they also made a 66 block with built in protection back in the late
'80s.


It's not unusual for me to have to argue with the phone company
that the a module is blown at their central office.


I had a radio station with problems with live call in. On line was
over 20 dB lower in level, and they tried to tell me that was normal.
The switching center was directly across the street. Less than 150 feet
of wire, and they expeccted me to fall for their BS. It turned out to
be a bad card in their switchgear.


They have to send a tech out to check it on my end.
I once called customer service to complain about a longitudinal
imbalance on my line because a sewer crew had hit the buried cable
to my building and the fools just wrapped tape around it and tossed
it back in the trench. The CSR said "Sir, we can't get involved in
your personal affairs." I said "You don't understand, my phone line
was damaged by a BACKHOE, that's a big digging machine, not a woman."


I had a direct hit on a building. It arced to a telephone cable that
ran two miles to the main road. It blew out the SLIC at that point, and
vaporized most of the copper in that pair, all the way to the CO, where
it took out another card.


It's commony reffered to as 'The race to the bottom', since people are
price driven.

Heck, I'd like to have more than one quality choice. 8-)


No kidding!


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

New product line: Full body Depends for HVAC techs.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

friend with a new R410a system and we darn near toasted to death. It
was
in the middle of the hottest Summer we've had in a long time with
temps
in the 100°+ range for many days without end. I didn't have to pee for
8 hours, it all came out of thousands of tiny holes in my skin. 8-)

TDD

On 9/25/2010 9:23 AM, Steve wrote:
This Summer, we replaced an old R22 system for a
friend with a new R410a system and we darn near toasted to death. It was
in the middle of the hottest Summer we've had in a long time with temps
in the 100°+ range for many days without end. I didn't have to pee for
8 hours, it all came out of thousands of tiny holes in my skin. 8-)

TDD

Welcome to my world :-)



I remember many summer days in southern Indiana, working construction,
that were like that. We all had to watch each other, and when somebody
STOPPED sweating, lead them over to the water cooler and make them take
a long break.

--
aem sends..

I've not been in Indiana. But, I've seen workers like that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"aemeijers" wrote in message
news
I remember many summer days in southern Indiana, working construction,
that were like that. We all had to watch each other, and when somebody
STOPPED sweating, lead them over to the water cooler and make them
take
a long break.

--
aem sends..

aemeijers wrote:

On 9/25/2010 9:23 AM, Steve wrote:
This Summer, we replaced an old R22 system for a
friend with a new R410a system and we darn near toasted to death. It was
in the middle of the hottest Summer we've had in a long time with temps
in the 100°+ range for many days without end. I didn't have to pee for
8 hours, it all came out of thousands of tiny holes in my skin. 8-)

TDD

Welcome to my world :-)



I remember many summer days in southern Indiana, working construction,
that were like that. We all had to watch each other, and when somebody
STOPPED sweating, lead them over to the water cooler and make them take
a long break.


I was out working in the hot Florida sun one day. In an hour I drank
three two liter bottles of ice water, and still stopped sweating. It
took another bottle of water, and two bottle of soda before I cooled
down. Damn, that was scary!


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 18:51:44 -0400, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I was out working in the hot Florida sun one day. In an hour I drank
three two liter bottles of ice water, and still stopped sweating. It took
another bottle of water, and two bottle of soda before I cooled down.
Damn, that was scary!

I'd have probably poured one of the bottles of ice water onto my head,
at least until my scalp was cooled to 98F. :-)

Thanks!
Rich

On 9/25/2010 4:17 PM, aemeijers wrote:
On 9/25/2010 9:23 AM, Steve wrote:
This Summer, we replaced an old R22 system for a
friend with a new R410a system and we darn near toasted to death. It was
in the middle of the hottest Summer we've had in a long time with temps
in the 100°+ range for many days without end. I didn't have to pee for
8 hours, it all came out of thousands of tiny holes in my skin. 8-)

TDD

Welcome to my world :-)



I remember many summer days in southern Indiana, working construction,
that were like that. We all had to watch each other, and when somebody
STOPPED sweating, lead them over to the water cooler and make them take
a long break.


I was working out in The Marshall Islands when I had the first kidney
stone to put me in the hospital. I had been working inside a hot
building that we were remodeling for the missile range when I got
nauseated and felt like I had a bad gas pain. It wouldn't stop so I
hopped on my bike and peddled to the island hospital where a dye
injection and X-ray confirmed a kidney stone. I've had several more,
two I passed on my own and another in a hospital. I drink lots and
lots of water now and haven't had another in a dozen years. I only
wish kidney stones on really mean and nasty people, not your typical
mild asshole, it's too cruel. 8-)

TDD

I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

I was out working in the hot Florida sun one day. In an hour I
drank
three two liter bottles of ice water, and still stopped sweating. It
took another bottle of water, and two bottle of soda before I cooled
down. Damn, that was scary!


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there
is
enough left over to pay them.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.

On 9/26/2010 8:07 AM, Steve wrote:
"Stormin wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.


In Louisiana, in summer, the framing and roofing crews start around
dawn, and knock off around solar noon. If they have a deadline or the
young immortal guys want some extra cash, they come back late afternoon
for a few hours. Even the notorious southern prison farms put the field
hands under cover during the hot part of the day. The Mexicans invented
the siesta concept for damn good reasons.

--
aem sends...

On 9/26/2010 7:07 AM, Steve wrote:
"Stormin wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.



Back in 89, I was working in a plant under construction in The City of
Industry (some of you know where that is) and the temperature was 105°
and the humidity was nonexistent. I was bone dry, even my underarms
were dry. The breeze blowing in from the desert felt like a hair dryer.
At 105°F here in Alabamastan, every square inch of you is wet, your
socks will be squishing no matter how thick they are, a leather belt
will be ruined as will any watch or electronics you are carrying unless
they're designed for skin divers. I've had countless pagers and two way
radios die after exposure to my toxic sweat and I can wear only a
diver's watch, unless it's a good one, it will expire too. I tell folks
that I sweat like a thunderstorm and it's easy to tell where I've been
standing still on any job site, there's a puddle.

TDD

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:09:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

"Stormin wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.



Back in 89, I was working in a plant under construction in The City of
Industry (some of you know where that is) and the temperature was 105°
and the humidity was nonexistent. I was bone dry, even my underarms
were dry. The breeze blowing in from the desert felt like a hair dryer.

And here people have been wondering why Ive been doing work around my
homestead from dark till dawn.....

Gunner, 85 miles west of the Mojave Desert



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 9/26/2010 9:44 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:09:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

"Stormin wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.



Back in 89, I was working in a plant under construction in The City of
Industry (some of you know where that is) and the temperature was 105°
and the humidity was nonexistent. I was bone dry, even my underarms
were dry. The breeze blowing in from the desert felt like a hair dryer.

And here people have been wondering why Ive been doing work around my
homestead from dark till dawn.....

Gunner, 85 miles west of the Mojave Desert


That job I was on then gave me one of the kidney stones I passed on my
own.

TDD

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:46:45 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 9/26/2010 9:44 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:09:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

"Stormin wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.



Back in 89, I was working in a plant under construction in The City of
Industry (some of you know where that is) and the temperature was 105°
and the humidity was nonexistent. I was bone dry, even my underarms
were dry. The breeze blowing in from the desert felt like a hair dryer.

And here people have been wondering why Ive been doing work around my
homestead from dark till dawn.....

Gunner, 85 miles west of the Mojave Desert


That job I was on then gave me one of the kidney stones I passed on my
own.

TDD

Been there, done that, several times.

I had an ER nurse once tell me it was like giving birth...

to a baby grand piano




I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in


Been there, done that, several times.

I had an ER nurse once tell me it was like giving birth...

to a baby grand piano

Had to go to the ER once after kidney stone removal due to complications. A
couple of ER nurses and I were talking. One said she'd rather give birth
than have kidney stones, and she'd done both. The other said she had kidney
stones at the time of one of her deliveries.

I've been through some ****, but I can't even imagine that. I bet she'd be
hell in a bar fight.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


No. I started early in the day, when it wasn't too bad out. I had
the cooler I carried when I spent the day at a flea market, which
included the refilled two liter bottles that were kept in my freezer.
There was also a 10 pound bag of ice and a two liter bottle of Diet Mt.
Dew. I drank all ow them, and used my tee shirt in the ice water to
lower my body temperature. By the time I had finished and driven home,
i was still hot, but not sweating.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:09:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

"Stormin wrote in message
...
I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


Prolly not... Its not unusual to be soaked down to your socks with sweat in
an hour or less. When the ODT is 95+ and the RH is 80+, you had better be
teking frequent breaks, and have a big cooler with lots of iced down water,
and gatorade. Go real easy on the sodas tho... they will dehydrate you
faster.



Back in 89, I was working in a plant under construction in The City of
Industry (some of you know where that is) and the temperature was 105°
and the humidity was nonexistent. I was bone dry, even my underarms
were dry. The breeze blowing in from the desert felt like a hair dryer.

And here people have been wondering why Ive been doing work around my
homestead from dark till dawn.....

Gunner, 85 miles west of the Mojave Desert


I was doing that, in Florida except I was repairing and building
computers.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Gunner Asch wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

That job I was on then gave me one of the kidney stones I passed
on my own.

Been there, done that, several times.

I had an ER nurse once tell me it was like giving birth...

to a baby grand piano


The worst I've had was about three hours in an Army dental chair
having oral surgery, without pain killers. Captain Hurt (his real name)
told me couldn't understand how I could sit there without passing out
from the pain. I did damaged the dental chair, though. I bent both
armrests in by several inches.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Ouch, that's a lot of water. And fluids. After chugging two liters of
mean green caffeine, know what I mean, bet that affected the rest of
your day?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'm glad you had the water available. Is it possible you were
dehydrated before you began the day?


No. I started early in the day, when it wasn't too bad out. I had
the cooler I carried when I spent the day at a flea market, which
included the refilled two liter bottles that were kept in my freezer.
There was also a 10 pound bag of ice and a two liter bottle of Diet
Mt.
Dew. I drank all ow them, and used my tee shirt in the ice water to
lower my body temperature. By the time I had finished and driven
home,
i was still hot, but not sweating.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there
is
enough left over to pay them.

On 9/26/2010 7:43 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

That job I was on then gave me one of the kidney stones I passed
on my own.

Been there, done that, several times.

I had an ER nurse once tell me it was like giving birth...

to a baby grand piano


The worst I've had was about three hours in an Army dental chair
having oral surgery, without pain killers. Captain Hurt (his real name)
told me couldn't understand how I could sit there without passing out
from the pain. I did damaged the dental chair, though. I bent both
armrests in by several inches.


Hell, I did that last week, even with a double-dose of the locals- he
stuck the probe in, and I about came off the chair. Idiot kept asking me
'do you feel pain, or just pressure?' After I explained to him the lack
of a difference, he got out the needle again. Took me a good ten minutes
to convince him to give me a prescription for something to get through
the next 48 hours- I had to explain to him in very clinical terms why I
couldn't take OTC NSAIDs any more, and how they made my face swell up.
Damn DEA and AMA have gotten all medical practitioners so scared of
being labeled 'drug addiction enablers', that you have to fight to get
meds for legitimate reasons.

So why wouldn't they give you any meds?

--
aem sends, still sore just thinking about it all again....

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ouch, that's a lot of water. And fluids. After chugging two liters of
mean green caffeine, know what I mean, bet that affected the rest of
your day?


That was gone in the first hour. I was out there for more than eight
hours.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Isn't that the way. Even after real life dentistry, they won't write a
Rx. I've had different dentists, some will write, others will not.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"aemeijers" wrote in message
...

Took me a good ten minutes
to convince him to give me a prescription for something to get through
the next 48 hours- I had to explain to him in very clinical terms why
I
couldn't take OTC NSAIDs any more, and how they made my face swell up.
Damn DEA and AMA have gotten all medical practitioners so scared of
being labeled 'drug addiction enablers', that you have to fight to get
meds for legitimate reasons.

I'd hate to think what would happen to a tech who drank only Mt. Dew.
That could make for a poor night sleep.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ouch, that's a lot of water. And fluids. After chugging two liters
of
mean green caffeine, know what I mean, bet that affected the rest of
your day?


That was gone in the first hour. I was out there for more than
eight
hours.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there
is
enough left over to pay them.

aemeijers wrote:

On 9/26/2010 7:43 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

That job I was on then gave me one of the kidney stones I passed
on my own.

Been there, done that, several times.

I had an ER nurse once tell me it was like giving birth...

to a baby grand piano


The worst I've had was about three hours in an Army dental chair
having oral surgery, without pain killers. Captain Hurt (his real name)
told me couldn't understand how I could sit there without passing out
from the pain. I did damaged the dental chair, though. I bent both
armrests in by several inches.


Hell, I did that last week, even with a double-dose of the locals- he
stuck the probe in, and I about came off the chair. Idiot kept asking me
'do you feel pain, or just pressure?' After I explained to him the lack
of a difference, he got out the needle again. Took me a good ten minutes
to convince him to give me a prescription for something to get through
the next 48 hours- I had to explain to him in very clinical terms why I
couldn't take OTC NSAIDs any more, and how they made my face swell up.
Damn DEA and AMA have gotten all medical practitioners so scared of
being labeled 'drug addiction enablers', that you have to fight to get
meds for legitimate reasons.

So why wouldn't they give you any meds?


It was an emergency, and the moron Lt. he was replacing was too sorry
to restock the clinic at the small Army base in Alaska. There was
nothing to prep me for surgery and nothing to prescribe for pain killer
afterwards. The fronts of two teeth broke and fell out while eating
lunch in the mess hall on a friday, and I had to wait three days for the
clinic to open which was only open on Tuesdays & Thursdays. The
alternative was a two hour ride on an army bus to Fairbanks on a mostly
gravel road that was painful to ride when you were well. I came close
to killing the idiot Lt. when he suggested waiting another day for a
ride in a helicopter, which was rougher than the damn bus ride. So, I
sat there as the Cpt. used what looked like a large Scratch Awl and some
pliers to break apart the roots and remove them one at a time. What was
left of the crowns crumbled as soon as he tried to pull either tooth.

He kept stopping and asking if I wanted him to continue. I would
nod, and try to say yes. As far as pain killers after dental surgery, I
didn't start having the prescriptions filled until a few years ago.
I've had eight teeth cut out in the morning, and went on to work a full
eight hour shift later that day. It wasn't till I became Diabetic that
I had to give in.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.