On 2010-09-22, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:26:25 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
AZ Nomad fired this volley in
:

I know enough not to employ the shotgun approach. However if you think
****ing away ten times the cost of having a pro diagnose it correctly is
the way to go, then don't let anybody stop you.

Ig is a smart guy. He can learn enough to save him ten times over what it
would cost, just by fiddling around with a unit that isn't critical to him
anyway.

You need more than a fiddle to perform refrigeration repair.

Yes, so I am trying to learn some more specifics. Some people were
helpful and to them, I am grateful.

i

Ignoramus25344 fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, I mostly am after trying to understand what is happening, right
now. I have a luxury of having plenty of time, due to having less food
at home that fits onto one fridge.

yep. I have repaired a number of them with the same symptom, but the
symptom can be caused by more than one problem.

As someone else said, a _thoroughly_ frozen-up evaporator can cause the
symptom, because the liquid refrigerant won't boil out of the coil fast
enough to reduce the head pressure before the next cycle is requested.
That's one.

A lot of compressors now come with PTC thermistors in place of the
potential relays they used to employ to switch the start cap out of
circuit. They tend to fail rather easily in a high-humidity environment.

Although they're not terribly expensive, I replace all of them with
potential relays; sometimes scavanged from other similar-sized
compressors, sometimes new.

Then, of course, it's possible the new start cap is failing.

The compressor could be on the way out. If the bearings are getting
sticky or tight, the compressor will be harder to start than it should
be. This eventually manifests itself as a "locked rotor", and nothing
you can do (effectively) will fix that, except replacing the compressor.

Foreign material in the closed system can cause it, too. You didn't say
anything about ever opening it, but flakes of insulation from the
compressor windings and corrosion flaking off the inside of improperly
cleaned or improperly brazed lines can all do it. These, too, are
generally fatal problems, and cannot be fixed merely by replacing the
compressor and re-charging.

LLoyd

On 9/21/2010 11:27 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. fired this volley in
m:

Yet there is almost always a free on on Freecycle or Craigslist.

I keep my "beer fridge" out in a roofed but not enclosed part of the barn.
It rusts out completely in about four to five years. So, I replace it with
another $50-$75 unit off the various lists and/or swap sheets. $20 a year
isn't too much to pay for a working fridge.


I haven't bought a fridge in the last 25 years. In fact, I just
picked up a free apartment or dorm sized fridge over the weekend that
looks brand new. I've never bought a new microwave oven, and the most
I've ever paid was $2. I have four at the moment, and I'm deciding
which ones I'll keep. I've only bought two new televisions in the last
40 years. Most everything else is picked up not working and repaired.



Happy to see I'm not the only cheap SOB out there. At least half my
appliances and home entertainment devices were either trash-picked, or
came from garage sales or CraigsList. I really, really hate paying retail.

--
aem sends...

On Sep 21, 2:50*pm, "A. Baum" wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:20:36 -0700, rangerssuck wrote:
On Sep 21, 4:18*pm, Ignoramus25344 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25344.invalid wrote:
If you recall, a month or so ago I posted about a refrigerator not
working.

The compressor unit in it would keep trying to start and would be
unable to start, tripping an overload relay.

After some "time off" to let the system cool, the fridge started just
fine. I also replaced a capacitor and relay (which was very cheap and
possibly not needed) and thought that I was done.

However, since yesterday it started having trouble again. Letting it
cool down for a couple of hours would get it started, only to find it
unable to restart a few hours later.

What could be the culprit here? Unlike last time, there is no
emergency, as we have less food and all our food easily fits in another
fridge.

The refrigerator is a Kenmore made by Amana with fancy electronic front
control.

i

Just guessing, again, but this sounds like the pressure is not bleeding
off, for whatever reason. It's hard to imagine seals that would hold
pressure for hours, but I suppose it's possible. Or, maybe there's some
contamination somewhere - water, perhaps, that's freezing in a low spot
in a line?

Wait a minute - I just reread your post - Am I right that it does
restart if you let it sit a couple of hours? What if you let it sit a
few (maybe 5) minutes? Wait till the compressor is running, then unplug
it after a couple of minutes. Then wait five minutes and plug it back
in. Does it restart then? If so, there's something wrong with the
control circuitry. It should not, under normal circumstances, be trying
to start against a load. There should be enough hysterisis in the
thermostat, or some sort of lock-out timer to prevent rapid cycling.

Do you maybe have an air leak - lik in the door gasket? I could see how
that would cause rapid cycling.

RS

I mentioned a month ago the dumb**** probably had ice build up inside the
cap tube or possibly if equipped the TEV. You might ask where the
moisture comes from in a sealed system. Not knowing the service history
of this unit I could not tell you if it actually has ice build up or if
the system had been worked on prior to dumb**** purchasing it used. But
it sure displays the proper symptoms to be a distinct possibility.

Ignoramus25344 fired this volley in
:

Does that refrigeration knowledge amount to so little?

Well, HIS does. The body of knowlege a competent tech has is quite
large, and encompasses a wide variety of disciplines. You have many of
them already. But the skills specific to refrigeration repair are not
many, and your learning them wouldn't be a stretch, at all.

Now, I said, "technician". There's a whopping difference between a
competent tech and a real refrigeration expert. He's the guy who can
compute actual superheats based upon the refrigerant's characteristics,
the compressor specs, the load, etc. He can do and knows a lot more than
that.

If you're working on massive chillers for domed stadiums, you need that
sort of knowlege. Those guys are real engineers.

The techs could do everything they do from a ten page cheat-sheet. And
no... I'm not kidding. Like most repair trades, except for the handling
and diagnosing of actual refrigeration problems, they solve most of their
problems by parts-swapping. Most of their refrigeration-based problems
are handled by rote, not by a clear understanding of how the system
actually does what it does, or why the pressures must be what they must
be, or what actually causes them to go "off".


I worked strictly as a grunt for an HVAC guy for a summer, many years
ago. With only that training, which consisted mostly of peering over the
shoulder of my boss, I got to where I can (and do) repair all of my own
R-22 and R-134a appliances. I cannot work on systems using azeotropes,
because I can't buy them, and don't intend to get licensed; so I can't
fix any R410a problems that require refrigerant. I also cannot buy R-22,
but I don't need it (dried and filtered propane works fine, if you don't
have R22), and R134a is still available without an EPA certificate and a
licensed "master" operator supervising you.

Unlike the "pros", I don't deliberately vent systems to the air. I built
a small reclamation unit. It saves me the guilt of doing what I see
professionals do almost every time I hire one. It also captures some
refrigerant, which, if it's not been exposed to a compressor burn-out
(and thus containing acid), can be filtered, dried, and returned to
service. (and yes, safely. The "pros" would have you believe that _any_
reclaimed refrigerant will instantly destroy anything you put it in)

Everything I've needed to know to stay "current" on what I can legally do
is available on-line.

I don't repair anyone's equipment but my own. I will, however, diagnose
friends' systems for them, so they don't get bilked by the repair tech
when he finally shows up.

LLoyd

On 9/21/2010 10:36 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, I mostly am after trying to understand what is happening, right
now. I have a luxury of having plenty of time, due to having less food
at home that fits onto one fridge.

yep. I have repaired a number of them with the same symptom, but the
symptom can be caused by more than one problem.

As someone else said, a _thoroughly_ frozen-up evaporator can cause the
symptom, because the liquid refrigerant won't boil out of the coil fast
enough to reduce the head pressure before the next cycle is requested.
That's one.

A lot of compressors now come with PTC thermistors in place of the
potential relays they used to employ to switch the start cap out of
circuit. They tend to fail rather easily in a high-humidity environment.

Although they're not terribly expensive, I replace all of them with
potential relays; sometimes scavanged from other similar-sized
compressors, sometimes new.

Then, of course, it's possible the new start cap is failing.

The compressor could be on the way out. If the bearings are getting
sticky or tight, the compressor will be harder to start than it should
be. This eventually manifests itself as a "locked rotor", and nothing
you can do (effectively) will fix that, except replacing the compressor.

Foreign material in the closed system can cause it, too. You didn't say
anything about ever opening it, but flakes of insulation from the
compressor windings and corrosion flaking off the inside of improperly
cleaned or improperly brazed lines can all do it. These, too, are
generally fatal problems, and cannot be fixed merely by replacing the
compressor and re-charging.

LLoyd

I always add a little Supco88 to a system when replacing a compressor in
addition to a product like Acid Away an acid neutralizer. Of course a
refrigerator for home use doesn't need as much as a commercial unit but
it only needs a little to help it. A small dryer with an access valve is
not a bad idea either when a refrigerator compressor is replaced and the
odd fridge that has a starting problem can benefit from an all in one
hard start relay and capacitor package. I know a lot of guys who do a
great job on HVAC equipment who have trouble working on itty bitty
refrigeration units. I prefer the big stuff myself like 60 to 4k tons,
it's easier to work on. 8-)

TDD

AZ Nomad fired this volley in
:

You need more than a fiddle to perform refrigeration repair.

That's all I see the "pros" do. They swap crap until it works, and if it's
an actual _refrigeration_ problem, they either add refrigerant, or scratch
their asses waiting for advice from "someone at the office."

LLoyd

aemeijers wrote:

On 9/21/2010 11:27 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Michael A. fired this volley in
m:

Yet there is almost always a free on on Freecycle or Craigslist.

I keep my "beer fridge" out in a roofed but not enclosed part of the barn.
It rusts out completely in about four to five years. So, I replace it with
another $50-$75 unit off the various lists and/or swap sheets. $20 a year
isn't too much to pay for a working fridge.


I haven't bought a fridge in the last 25 years. In fact, I just
picked up a free apartment or dorm sized fridge over the weekend that
looks brand new. I've never bought a new microwave oven, and the most
I've ever paid was $2. I have four at the moment, and I'm deciding
which ones I'll keep. I've only bought two new televisions in the last
40 years. Most everything else is picked up not working and repaired.



Happy to see I'm not the only cheap SOB out there. At least half my
appliances and home entertainment devices were either trash-picked, or
came from garage sales or CraigsList. I really, really hate paying retail.


No need to trash pick / dumpster dive. People know I can fix almost
anything, so I get phone calls, E-mails and deliveries of used items.

To give you an idea of how creative I am at saving money, I am making
some tongue & groove boards from scrap pallets to use as sub flooring.



--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

The Daring Dufas fired this volley in
:

I always add a little Supco88 to a system when replacing a compressor in
addition to a product like Acid Away an acid neutralizer. Of course a


Yep, but they also have filter/driers already impregnated with something
similar to neutralize char acids.

LLoyd

On 9/21/2010 9:56 PM, Ignoramus25344 wrote:
On 2010-09-22, AZ wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:54:31 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburghlloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
fired this volley in
:

Keep your day job AZ. You aren't going to make it as a comic.

He better try the comic thing... he can't make it as a refrigeration
professional no matter how hard he tries.

I know enough not to employ the shotgun approach. However if you think
****ing away ten times the cost of having a pro diagnose it correctly is
the way to go, then don't let anybody stop you.


The advantage that comes from DIY approach is that besides fixing the
fridge, I learn something.

i

There is nothing wrong with learning about the technology around you.
If you have an old piece of equipment, the time and money to spend on
your self education, go for it. If a fellow asks me for a job, I ask
if he has experience and if he has burned up a thousand dollars worth
of equipment. If he tells me he has never burned up any equipment. I
tell him he has no experience and needs to destroy equipment someplace
else because I can't afford it. 8-)

TDD

I mentioned a month ago the dumb**** probably had ice build up inside
the
cap tube or possibly if equipped the TEV.

BTW (I don't think Bob wrote this) "dumb****" stuff.

But when's the last time you saw an ordinary household REFRIGERATOR with a
freakin' TEV? Huh? Who's the dumb****?

LLoyd

On 2010-09-22, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:56:03 -0500, Steve wrote:

The refrigerator is a Kenmore made by Amana with fancy electronic
front control.

Its a freakin Kenmore.... call Sears and have a guy come out and fix it, or
you can quit screwing around and buy a new one.

His time isn't worth anything. He'd rather be the first person on the
block with a fridge that cost him five grand than pay $200 for labor.

That could be true. I once made a homemade control for a welding
machine. It was MIG, stick and plasma capable and welded pretty good
(though it was not as convenient to use as an industrial welder like
Miller).

Anyway, when I calculated the amount of little parts, doodads, and my
time at a VERY conservative rate, the time investment in the welder
control was so enormous that at something like $20 per hour, I could
have used this time to buy the nicest brand new Miller welder out
there.

But the difference between making that weld control, versus fixing the
fridge, is that when I was asking about various specifics, I got
educational, useful answers, instead of screaming and howling like I
get from some (but not all) losers that seem to hail from alt.hvac. I,
obviously, always welcome any useful ideas that would come from
constructively minded HVACers.

i

On 9/21/2010 10:01 PM, Ignoramus25344 wrote:
On 2010-09-22, Lloyd E. Sponenburghlloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
fired this volley in
:

Just curious why are you so ****y, a slow day? Customers not calling?

no... he's a "refrigeration professional", and doesn't want anyone to
figure out the four or five pages of knowlege that constitutes his
"professional advantage" over ordinary laymen.

Does that refrigeration knowledge amount to so little? Any textbook
you would recommend?

I cannot believe that, after fixing and retrofitting my Bridgeport
Interact CNC mill, I cannot ever properly diagnose a bad Sears
refrigerator. I started knowing nothing about CNC mills and now,
thanks to all the great help I got, I have a working CNC machine.

Maybe I can fix the fridge too.

i

I don't see why not, I remember fixing a CNC machine that had a
Toshiba bubble memory unit in the controller. It was a hoot,
when I told the kid at the electronic supply house about the
bubble memory unit, I got a blank stare and a "duh?".

TDD

You need more than a fiddle to perform refrigeration repair.

Yes, so I am trying to learn some more specifics. Some people were
helpful and to them, I am grateful.

I

the last time I had those symptoms, it was a 1947 Norge that had run until
1987. I took it apart, and the root cause was lack of lubrication to the
rod bearing caused by a particle of some kind getting into the lubrication
hole and blocking it - Still, one can't be too unhappy about a 40 year life
on a refrig. I replaced it with a same brand unit, which didn't make 1 week
before requiring 2 (warranty) service calls. When it got replaced in about
10 years, I took it outside and it drained water out of the insulation for
several days - there were gallons of water frozen in the lining - the old
norge had none of that. Replacement refrig seems ok so far.

"Ignoramus25344" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-22, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus25344 fired this volley in
:

Just curious why are you so ****y, a slow day? Customers not calling?

no... he's a "refrigeration professional", and doesn't want anyone to
figure out the four or five pages of knowlege that constitutes his
"professional advantage" over ordinary laymen.

Does that refrigeration knowledge amount to so little? Any textbook
you would recommend?

I cannot believe that, after fixing and retrofitting my Bridgeport
Interact CNC mill, I cannot ever properly diagnose a bad Sears
refrigerator. I started knowing nothing about CNC mills and now,
thanks to all the great help I got, I have a working CNC machine.

Maybe I can fix the fridge too.

I

a lot of the so called magic is pretty obvious and available on line - if
you recall any of your thermo courses you can of course do the equations,
but these devices really are pretty simple.

On 9/21/2010 11:08 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
The Daring fired this volley in
:

I always add a little Supco88 to a system when replacing a compressor in
addition to a product like Acid Away an acid neutralizer. Of course a


Yep, but they also have filter/driers already impregnated with something
similar to neutralize char acids.

LLoyd

I usually only see those for AC units where a burnout is often much
more spectacular. I haven't paid attention to the small bullet dryer
specs to look for acid neutralizing media content. Acid Away is a
liquid that mixes with the refrigeration oil. I use the liquid in
addition to the Sporlan HH series dryers on an AC burnout. If the
AC evaporator and line set is badly contaminated, I use a cleaner
blown through it with nitrogen too. In my opinion, the Acid Away
protects the compressor much better than a dryer alone because it
stays in the oil in every part of the system like the windings of
the compressor motor that are vulnerable to being damaged by acid.
There are those critters out there who will just throw a system in
and head down the road without regard for how long it will last the
customer.

TDD

On 9/21/2010 11:10 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I mentioned a month ago the dumb**** probably had ice build up inside
the
cap tube or possibly if equipped the TEV.

BTW (I don't think Bob wrote this) "dumb****" stuff.

But when's the last time you saw an ordinary household REFRIGERATOR with a
freakin' TEV? Huh? Who's the dumb****?

LLoyd

A Sub-Zero? Of course, it's not exactly ordinary.

TDD

On 9/21/2010 11:20 PM, Bill Noble wrote:


"Ignoramus25344" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-22, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus25344 fired this
volley in
:

Just curious why are you so ****y, a slow day? Customers not calling?

no... he's a "refrigeration professional", and doesn't want anyone to
figure out the four or five pages of knowlege that constitutes his
"professional advantage" over ordinary laymen.

Does that refrigeration knowledge amount to so little? Any textbook
you would recommend?

I cannot believe that, after fixing and retrofitting my Bridgeport
Interact CNC mill, I cannot ever properly diagnose a bad Sears
refrigerator. I started knowing nothing about CNC mills and now,
thanks to all the great help I got, I have a working CNC machine.

Maybe I can fix the fridge too.

I

a lot of the so called magic is pretty obvious and available on line -
if you recall any of your thermo courses you can of course do the
equations, but these devices really are pretty simple.

It ain't rocket surgery. 8-)

TDD

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

I keep my "beer fridge" out in a roofed but not enclosed part of the barn.
It rusts out completely in about four to five years. So, I replace it
with
another $50-$75 unit off the various lists and/or swap sheets. $20 a year
isn't too much to pay for a working fridge.

LLoyd

A man after my own heart. I became interested in homebrewing, and am about
ready to kick it off.

I DO need a dedicated refrigerator, though.

I managed to get six Cornelius kegs with connectors and a regulator for
$100. I may get God knows what more, as I am swapping with a guy who wants
my 1200 gal. water tank, and he works for Coke/Dr. Pepper and I am pretty
sure he is getting this stuff for free. I am negotiating getting all the
"stuff" from a home brewer who was SWMBO'd, except for a $12 wort cooler,
which I can build cheaply, and all for $125.

Weather here is hot, and SWMBO will surely complain of the odor of the
flatulent fermentation process, so I guess I'll have to retire to the
containers and make a dedicated beer brewing area, complete with hot water,
triple tank NSF sink, dedicated refrigerators, and welded racking systems to
make things easier.

Moving along right on the time line. Should be an interesting and fun
hobby.

With the state of the economy today, "working fridges", particularly the
top/bottom varieties can be had for a song, and sometimes for just picking
them up.

When I was about 18 (1966), I found an old refrigerator in a motel they were
tearing down. It had the freezer part on top, but only one door. Wish I
knew the brand name, but for the time, was top of the line. Probably go for
a grand on ebay today.

I brought it home, covered it in zebra terrycloth, and put it out by the
pool for a beer and soft drink fridge. It was running when I sold the
house, and had probably been running at least twenty years prior.

They don't make stuff like they used to.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

Refrigerator repairmen to me are like teachers. They can't make it in the
real world, or at any chosen discipline, so they just take the easy way out,
and settle for a position that at least doesn't have a social stigma like
"gutter cleaner".

If they were able to grasp the basics of HVAC, they'd be out there changing
10 ton units, doing new construction, putting in very large walk in coolers
or freezers, or the like.

But instead, they don't have what it it takes to make it in the trade, so
they fall back on "refrigerator repairman."

Which to me is the same to "bicycle mechanic."

No offense to bicycle mechanics out there .................................

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 9/21/2010 11:10 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I mentioned a month ago the dumb**** probably had ice build up inside
the
cap tube or possibly if equipped the TEV.

BTW (I don't think Bob wrote this) "dumb****" stuff.

But when's the last time you saw an ordinary household REFRIGERATOR with
a
freakin' TEV? Huh? Who's the dumb****?

LLoyd

A Sub-Zero? Of course, it's not exactly ordinary.

TDD

They are extraordinary. Their price is through the roof. Their appeal and
appearance are through the roof. Their customer complaints and
dissatisfaction with service and repairs are also through the roof.

How good does a fridge have to be?

Unlike Vulcan, Wolf, Dacor, and similar stoves that just perform superbly, a
Sub-Zero is an average refrigerator with some fancy features at a
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher price than average.
.................................................. You pay more, you don't
get more, except for a fancier cover plate.

Steve

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 70...
AZ Nomad fired this volley in
:

You need more than a fiddle to perform refrigeration repair.

That's all I see the "pros" do. They swap crap until it works, and if
it's
an actual _refrigeration_ problem, they either add refrigerant, or scratch
their asses waiting for advice from "someone at the office."

LLoyd

I have gauges. I would bet a Franklin that I could check the level of freon
in my system, call for a repairman, and be charged for a freon charge to
"top off the system."

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On 9/22/2010 12:35 AM, Steve B wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 9/21/2010 11:10 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I mentioned a month ago the dumb**** probably had ice build up inside
the
cap tube or possibly if equipped the TEV.

BTW (I don't think Bob wrote this) "dumb****" stuff.

But when's the last time you saw an ordinary household REFRIGERATOR with
a
freakin' TEV? Huh? Who's the dumb****?

LLoyd

A Sub-Zero? Of course, it's not exactly ordinary.

TDD

They are extraordinary. Their price is through the roof. Their appeal and
appearance are through the roof. Their customer complaints and
dissatisfaction with service and repairs are also through the roof.

How good does a fridge have to be?

Unlike Vulcan, Wolf, Dacor, and similar stoves that just perform superbly, a
Sub-Zero is an average refrigerator with some fancy features at a
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher price than average.
................................................. You pay more, you don't
get more, except for a fancier cover plate.

Steve



I suppose I'm only familiar with the older Sub-Zero units. The
units I've fooled with, were built like commercial units with
semi-hermetic compressors on the top of the fridge.

TDD

"Ignoramus25344" wrote

Maybe I can fix the fridge too.

i

Something tells me you'll figure it out. I see HVAC guys all the time who
can't figure out how to pour **** out of a boot, yet they are HVAC guys, and
by their accounts, and certificates, are damn fine ones at that.

It's just too bad that the HVAC dynasty does not give out certificates and
testimonials for "parts changers."

"Lady, I don't have an idea what's wrong, but I will keep changing parts as
long as your bank card clears. And if that fails, there's always the, "It
needs a new compressor." Which means someone who actually knows what they
are doing will be by to work on the system.

HTH

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 70...
Ignoramus25344 fired this volley in
:

Does that refrigeration knowledge amount to so little?

Well, HIS does. The body of knowlege a competent tech has is quite
large, and encompasses a wide variety of disciplines. You have many of
them already. But the skills specific to refrigeration repair are not
many, and your learning them wouldn't be a stretch, at all.

Now, I said, "technician". There's a whopping difference between a
competent tech and a real refrigeration expert. He's the guy who can
compute actual superheats based upon the refrigerant's characteristics,
the compressor specs, the load, etc. He can do and knows a lot more than
that.

If you're working on massive chillers for domed stadiums, you need that
sort of knowlege. Those guys are real engineers.

The techs could do everything they do from a ten page cheat-sheet. And
no... I'm not kidding. Like most repair trades, except for the handling
and diagnosing of actual refrigeration problems, they solve most of their
problems by parts-swapping. Most of their refrigeration-based problems
are handled by rote, not by a clear understanding of how the system
actually does what it does, or why the pressures must be what they must
be, or what actually causes them to go "off".


I worked strictly as a grunt for an HVAC guy for a summer, many years
ago. With only that training, which consisted mostly of peering over the
shoulder of my boss, I got to where I can (and do) repair all of my own
R-22 and R-134a appliances. I cannot work on systems using azeotropes,
because I can't buy them, and don't intend to get licensed; so I can't
fix any R410a problems that require refrigerant. I also cannot buy R-22,
but I don't need it (dried and filtered propane works fine, if you don't
have R22), and R134a is still available without an EPA certificate and a
licensed "master" operator supervising you.

Unlike the "pros", I don't deliberately vent systems to the air. I built
a small reclamation unit. It saves me the guilt of doing what I see
professionals do almost every time I hire one. It also captures some
refrigerant, which, if it's not been exposed to a compressor burn-out
(and thus containing acid), can be filtered, dried, and returned to
service. (and yes, safely. The "pros" would have you believe that _any_
reclaimed refrigerant will instantly destroy anything you put it in)

Everything I've needed to know to stay "current" on what I can legally do
is available on-line.

I don't repair anyone's equipment but my own. I will, however, diagnose
friends' systems for them, so they don't get bilked by the repair tech
when he finally shows up.

LLoyd

What % of the time would you estimate that happens?

Steve

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Mike Hocksbigg wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:18:40 -0500, Ignoramus25344 wrote:

If you recall, a month or so ago I posted about a refrigerator not
working.

The compressor unit in it would keep trying to start and would be unable
to start, tripping an overload relay.

After some "time off" to let the system cool, the fridge started just
fine. I also replaced a capacitor and relay (which was very cheap and
possibly not needed) and thought that I was done.

However, since yesterday it started having trouble again. Letting it
cool down for a couple of hours would get it started, only to find it
unable to restart a few hours later.

What could be the culprit here? Unlike last time, there is no emergency,
as we have less food and all our food easily fits in another fridge.

The refrigerator is a Kenmore made by Amana with fancy electronic front
control.

i

Call a ****ing professional service tech you nut-job.

Wound pretty tight today aren't we?

Good call, Jim.

Some people! sigh

Harold

"Ignoramus25344" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-22, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley
in :

Wouldn't he call a refrigeration professional, instead?

They're pretty scarce. He might be better with an F-ing professional,
instead.

We had a "refrigeration professional" out to the factory a three months
ago to replace an A/C compressor under warrantee.

Long story short... I had to do (actually completely UN-do, clean the
work, and RE-do) the brazing for him. He couldn't lick all the leaks.

To his defense, it was a BAD position in which to work, he was a short
little sucker, the unit was tall, and it was a tiny, tight workspace
inside the coil of that unit. But damn... I'm just a pyrotechnics guy,
and _I_ was able to Sil-Flo that thing down tight in one try.

So much for "refrigeration professionals".

Yeah... I know there are some. I learned to braze from one. But this
guy's was the sort of skills I see all the time over in alt.hvac. And
they SCREAM about how they're the only ones competent to work on systems.

Hell... half of them can't figure out which way is "up" for liquid feed
with R410a. (or why),(and it's printed on the bottle)

Lloyd, I mostly am after trying to understand what is happening, right
now. I have a luxury of having plenty of time, due to having less food
at home that fits onto one fridge.

i

Iggy,
You shouldn't have to justify what you do to any of these guys. If they
"don't get it", that's their problem.

Luck with the repair.

Harold

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Ignoramus25344 fired this volley in
:

Just curious why are you so ****y, a slow day? Customers not calling?

no... he's a "refrigeration professional", and doesn't want anyone to
figure out the four or five pages of knowlege that constitutes his
"professional advantage" over ordinary laymen.

LLoyd

Good one, Lloyd!

Harold

wrote in message
...


I've never been so busy. Seriously.

I do commercial only and all I can say
is WHAT recession?

Now we know who you do commercials FOR - Brobama !


I've said it before and I'll say it again.....

It's only a recession if you don't have work.

HVAC wrote:

wrote in message
...


I've never been so busy. Seriously.

I do commercial only and all I can say
is WHAT recession?

Now we know who you do commercials FOR - Brobama !

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....

It's only a recession if you don't have work.


And your only an ignorant asshole if you work in HVAC.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 9/21/2010 10:01 PM, Ignoramus25344 wrote:
On 2010-09-22, Lloyd E. Sponenburghlloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
fired this volley in
:

Just curious why are you so ****y, a slow day? Customers not calling?

no... he's a "refrigeration professional", and doesn't want anyone to
figure out the four or five pages of knowlege that constitutes his
"professional advantage" over ordinary laymen.

Does that refrigeration knowledge amount to so little? Any textbook
you would recommend?

I cannot believe that, after fixing and retrofitting my Bridgeport
Interact CNC mill, I cannot ever properly diagnose a bad Sears
refrigerator. I started knowing nothing about CNC mills and now,
thanks to all the great help I got, I have a working CNC machine.

Maybe I can fix the fridge too.

i

I don't see why not, I remember fixing a CNC machine that had a
Toshiba bubble memory unit in the controller. It was a hoot,
when I told the kid at the electronic supply house about the
bubble memory unit, I got a blank stare and a "duh?".


Remember all the hype about Bubble memory? It was supposed to do to
solid state RAM, what RAM did to core memory. I've only seen one
computer with Bubble memory, and it failed twice in two years.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

On Sep 22, 1:31*am, "Steve B" wrote:
Refrigerator repairmen to me are like teachers. *They can't make it in the
real world, or at any chosen discipline, so they just take the easy way out,
and settle for a position that at least doesn't have a social stigma like
"gutter cleaner".

If they were able to grasp the basics of HVAC, they'd be out there changing
10 ton units, doing new construction, putting in very large walk in coolers
or freezers, or the like.

But instead, they don't have what it it takes to make it in the trade, so
they fall back on "refrigerator repairman."

Which to me is the same to "bicycle mechanic."

No offense to bicycle mechanics out there ..................................

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
*http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

What the ****? Teachers can't make it in the real world, or at any
chosen discipline, so they just take the easy way out? Are you ****ing
serious?

On 22-Sep-10 04:18, Ignoramus25344 wrote:
If you recall, a month or so ago I posted about a refrigerator not
working.

The compressor unit in it would keep trying to start and would be
unable to start, tripping an overload relay.

How old is it? Does it have enough room to vent its heat?

--
@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
/( _ )\ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.35.4
^ ^ 19:55:01 up 25 days 22:02 1 user load average: 1.08 1.13 1.15
�借貸! ��騙! ��交! �打交! �打劫! �自殺! 請考慮綜� (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

"Steve B" wrote in message
news

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 70...
AZ Nomad fired this volley in
:

You need more than a fiddle to perform refrigeration repair.

That's all I see the "pros" do. They swap crap until it works, and if
it's
an actual _refrigeration_ problem, they either add refrigerant, or
scratch
their asses waiting for advice from "someone at the office."

LLoyd

I have gauges. I would bet a Franklin that I could check the level of
freon in my system, call for a repairman, and be charged for a freon
charge to "top off the system."

It takes more than *just* gauges to check the refrigerant charge balance.
What about the compressors rated amp draw?? superheat?? subcooling??

You can check with your gauges, then **** and moan cause you added when it
didn't need it, or recovered what you thought was excess.... when the
"problem" may have only been dirty coils, or blower wheel, or dirty filter,
or bunch of registers closed, or.............

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

HVAC wrote:

wrote in message
...


I've never been so busy. Seriously.

I do commercial only and all I can say
is WHAT recession?

Now we know who you do commercials FOR - Brobama !

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....

It's only a recession if you don't have work.


And your only an ignorant asshole if you work in HVAC.

The same could be said of insert your vocation here.

I don' thave a lot of contact with other HVAC guys. But, I can easily
believe what you've written. It's a shame that so many techs lack the
basic skills.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this
volley
in :

Wouldn't he call a refrigeration professional, instead?

They're pretty scarce. He might be better with an F-ing professional,
instead.

We had a "refrigeration professional" out to the factory a three
months
ago to replace an A/C compressor under warrantee.

Long story short... I had to do (actually completely UN-do, clean the
work, and RE-do) the brazing for him. He couldn't lick all the leaks.

To his defense, it was a BAD position in which to work, he was a short
little sucker, the unit was tall, and it was a tiny, tight workspace
inside the coil of that unit. But damn... I'm just a pyrotechnics
guy,
and _I_ was able to Sil-Flo that thing down tight in one try.

So much for "refrigeration professionals".

Yeah... I know there are some. I learned to braze from one. But this
guy's was the sort of skills I see all the time over in alt.hvac. And
they SCREAM about how they're the only ones competent to work on
systems.

Hell... half of them can't figure out which way is "up" for liquid
feed
with R410a. (or why),(and it's printed on the bottle)

LLoyd

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:18:37 -0700, Bill Noble wrote:
the last time I had those symptoms, it was a 1947 Norge that had run
until 1987. I took it apart, and the root cause was lack of lubrication
to the rod bearing caused by a particle of some kind getting into the
lubrication hole and blocking it - Still, one can't be too unhappy about
a 40 year life on a refrig.

Ours will be 34 next year, so it's getting up there. I'd replace it if I
had any faith in a modern one lasting even a third of that time, but as
it stands I'll just run it until something major breaks.

I'm sure it uses huge amounts of power - but we have to heat the house
for over half the year here, so at least anything that it loses as heat
isn't going to waste during that time ;-)

cheers

Jules

And, when was the last time you saw ice inside a cap tube? I've been
ammused, here, for the entire thread. I'm not at Iggy's place, doing a
proper diagnosis. But from what he wrote (and I saw quoted in someone
else's post). I'd be looking in different direction for the source of
the problem. But, then, everyone knows. I'm just a the dumf'k from alt
havoc.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
.70...

I mentioned a month ago the dumb**** probably had ice build up
inside
the
cap tube or possibly if equipped the TEV.

BTW (I don't think Bob wrote this) "dumb****" stuff.

But when's the last time you saw an ordinary household REFRIGERATOR
with a
freakin' TEV? Huh? Who's the dumb****?

LLoyd

Steve wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

HVAC wrote:

wrote in message
...


I've never been so busy. Seriously.

I do commercial only and all I can say
is WHAT recession?

Now we know who you do commercials FOR - Brobama !

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....

It's only a recession if you don't have work.


And your only an ignorant asshole if you work in HVAC.

The same could be said of insert your vocation here.


You starting this crap again? Most guys who work in HVAC couldn't
get a job at a fast food place.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

At least a couple times in my life. I've worked on systems that the
customer insisted were low freon, but turned out to be other problems.

One restaurant. The upright two door freezer had some kind of
compressor problem. Two cylinder compressor, about half the amps. The
owner totally insisted that it needed freon.

Out back, are the compressors for the cases indoors. The one for the
pie case, I think it was 1/3 HP compressor, with a receiver. The walk
in cooler was 1/2 HP, if memory serves. I put my gages on, and checked
amp draw. I could tell by the sound, the units were really straining.
The head was waay, waaay, up there.

I tried to explain (the old guy was very deaf) the actual problem. He
insisted the one needed 5 pounds of freon, the other needed 8. I got
out my Johnstone catalog, showed him the receiver holds 1.5 pounds or
was it 1.7 (been about three or four years ago). I told him that I'd
need to fix the actual problem. He refused to let me fix the problem.
Insisted that I add 5 pounds to the one system and 8 pounds to the
other. I finally walked off. I hope he leaves the business some day
and his wife calls me back. She was a lot more pleasant. Perhaps he
can retire to Florida, and enjoy his retirement there.

Of course, depending which tech you called. You might get a couple
pounds of freon added to your system, or you might get a proper
repair.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve B" wrote in message
news
That's all I see the "pros" do. They swap crap until it works, and
if
it's
an actual _refrigeration_ problem, they either add refrigerant, or
scratch
their asses waiting for advice from "someone at the office."

LLoyd

I have gauges. I would bet a Franklin that I could check the level of
freon
in my system, call for a repairman, and be charged for a freon charge
to
"top off the system."

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com