"Rod Speed" ha scritto nel messaggio
Giusi wrote

because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap

Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

I have that type of water heater, but it takes a lot of water running before
the water is hot.

The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains,
then 3 liters that it heats.

Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot
water all the time.

Nor does mine use all hot. There is a prewash rinse that is cold, and maybe
the first rinse is cold. How would I know?

We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less
water and energy than handwashing.

The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved heat from
a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a period followed by the
sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot. On occasion I have
opened it right away to get something I wanted and burned my fingers, but
there is not hot air period that follows that rinse.

On May 17, 1:04*am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren wrote:
*[ ... ]
I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

I believe that's a convection circulating system.

Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
with a large central boiler as the source.

But for hot water? *Residential? *It's possible, sure, just would
like to see how this thing works. *Sounds too complicated to be
reliable.

As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and 30
seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot in 2
seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. *I understand how a
recirculation pump works. *How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon water. I
don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste" hot
water in the lines. Read the thread.

keith wrote:
On May 17, 1:04 am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary
Heston) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren wrote:
[ ... ]
I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

I believe that's a convection circulating system.

Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
with a large central boiler as the source.

But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
reliable.

As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and
30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot
in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste" hot
water in the lines. Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled. And I haven't
dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting for it to get hot. Try
thinking.

Giusi wrote:
"Rod Speed" ha scritto nel messaggio
Giusi wrote

because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap

Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

I have that type of water heater, but it takes a lot of water running
before the water is hot.

The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses,
drains, then 3 liters that it heats.

Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use
hot water all the time.

Nor does mine use all hot. There is a prewash rinse that is cold,
and maybe the first rinse is cold. How would I know?

We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses
less water and energy than handwashing.

The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved
heat from a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a period
followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot.
On occasion I have opened it right away to get something I wanted and
burned my fingers, but there is not hot air period that follows that
rinse.

That energy claim is made by many (most?) utilities in the US also.

"Bob F" ha scritto nel messaggio
Giusi wrote:
We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved heat
from a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a period
followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot.
On occasion I have opened it right away to get something I wanted and
burned my fingers, but there is not hot air period that follows that
rinse.

That energy claim is made by many (most?) utilities in the US also.

What does that mean... that my DW does have a hot air dry and I just don't
know it? You'll just have to trust me on that. Water is heated in small
quantities twice and there is no hot air drying. It is low energy and very
low water consumption.

In article , "Rod Speed" wrote:
Giusi wrote
Bob F wrote

How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill dishwasher.

But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.

No,

Yes, he did say MAY.

because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap

Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

(and that's strictly temporary) gas may be.

Not necessarily.

The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3
liters that it heats.

Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot water
all the time.

It takes less than a minute to heat because it is so little water. Same for
the rinses.

The rinses arent necessarily done with hot water. Only my last one is.

We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water
and energy than handwashing.

The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

Potable water and energy are both a potential big problem here.

But they dont necessarily use less total energy, particularly with drying.

i always throw in the fodd along with my dishes, why waste energy ???

http://www.salon.com/nov96/salmon961118.html

Giusi wrote:
"Bob F" ha scritto nel messaggio
Giusi wrote:
We do not have heated drying in our DWs. It dries using reserved
heat from a superhot rinse cycle. You can hear silence for a
period followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes
are very hot. On occasion I have opened it right away to get
something I wanted and burned my fingers, but there is not hot
air period that follows that rinse.

That energy claim is made by many (most?) utilities in the US also.

What does that mean... that my DW does have a hot air dry and I just
don't know it? You'll just have to trust me on that. Water is
heated in small quantities twice and there is no hot air drying. It
is low energy and very low water consumption.

Sorry, I could have chosen a better place for this followup - it wasn't aimed at
your comment specifically, just followed the most recent post. It relates to the
"dishwashers use less energy" claim.

On May 17, 10:11*am, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
On May 17, 1:04 am, "Bob F" wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:07:29 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary
Heston) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren wrote:
[ ... ]
I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my
PEX manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at
the top. I wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water
is looped back to the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

I believe that's a convection circulating system.

Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping,
with a large central boiler as the source.

But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would
like to see how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be
reliable.

As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and extra
return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a button, and
30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and have it hot
in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste" hot
water in the lines. *Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled. And I haven't
dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting for it to get hot. Try
thinking.

Baloney. The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. Truy not
to make crap up.

On 17/05/2010 06:00, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 22:43:35 +0100, wrote:

On 16/05/2010 22:34, S Viemeister wrote:
On 5/16/2010 6:31 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:24:49 +0100, wrote:
On 16/05/2010 01:08, Lou wrote:
"Tim wrote
6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US
gallons
or 2.85 imperial gallons.

I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons,
consisting
for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each.

Since when were there five quarts in gallon of any sort? Wouldn't they
be quints?

Yes, but an imperial gallon is four 40oz. quarts, which happens to
equal five
32oz. quints. Well, close enough (within .1%).

But - the Imperial ounce isn't exactly the same as the US ounce...

Nor even is the Imperial fluid ounce equal to the US fluid ounce...

Which is why I wrote the "Well, close enough (within .1%)" part. See, I knew
some assholes would try to pick the simple math apart with such trivia. I'm
not disappointed. ;-)

Well if you want nit-picking the US fluid ounce isn't even equal to the
US fluid ounce for nutrition.

--
Rod

Giusi wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Giusi wrote
Bob F wrote

How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill dishwasher.

But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.

No,

Yes, he did say MAY.

because a tank water heater works 24/7 no matter how cheap

Plenty of the water heaters dont store the hot water.

I have that type of water heater,

And not everyone does.

but it takes a lot of water running before the water is hot.

Yes, that is one of the real downsides of that type of hot water system.

The dishwasher fills with a couple of liters of water, rinses, drains, then 3 liters that it heats.

Yes, but a dishwasher that uses piped hot water doesnt have to use hot water all the time.

Nor does mine use all hot. There is a prewash rinse that is cold, and maybe the first rinse is cold.

With mine its only the last rinse that is hot and that appears
to be so the dishes will dry without hot air drying, like yours.

How would I know?

Open the dishwasher at the end of each rinse cycle, just after you
heat it start to pump out for that rinse and check the water temp.

We are encouraged to use our dishwashers in Italy because it uses less water and energy than handwashing.

The energy claim is very dubious, particularly with drying.

We do not have heated drying in our DWs.

Yes you do with some of them.

It dries using reserved heat from a superhot rinse cycle.

Yes, mine operates the same way, but that isnt universal.

You can hear silence for a period followed by the sound of the drain opening. The dishes are very hot. On occasion I
have opened it right away to get something I wanted and burned my fingers,

Yeah, me too, when I was trying to clean some old beer bottles I got
at a yard sale and was trying to check how well they had been cleaned.

Didnt actually get burnt, but I certainly had to let go quickly.

but there is not hot air period that follows that rinse.

Yes, but that isnt anything like universal with all dishwashers.

keith wrote:
As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and
extra return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a
button, and 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and
have it hot in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of
is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste"
hot water in the lines. Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled.
And I haven't dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting
for it to get hot. Try thinking.

Baloney. The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. Truy not
to make crap up.

I only did it. That is the result. Where does your expert opinion come from?

It works just like running the water to get hot water, but the water goes back
to the heater instead of down the drain. It isn't rocket science.

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:

In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele
dishwasher can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A
more typical dishwasher costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five
times as expensive. That difference will buy an awful lot of water -
in my area, about 849,000 US gallons (3,213,814 liters).

When you figure in the sewage charge, my water is WAY more expensive than
that.
About $12.50 per ccf, which is 748 gallons, or about 1.7 cents / gallon.
Heating
it cost significantly more than that in addition, I'm sure. $3.50 of that
$12.50
is the actual water charge.

Where I live, water and sewer are billed together, there's no way to break
them out. The sewage charge is based on the water used - there's no meter
on the drains. That means when I fill my pool or water my lawn, I'm also
paying a charge for sewer. I base my estimates on the township water
department - it's a long story, but when I needed an estimate of how much it
would cost to fill the pool, the price they came up with was twenty bucks
for my 20,000 gallon pool. That works out to a cent per gallon.

The charges go up with increasing usage in a period - draw on that 20,000
gallons over a period of years (as a dishwasher would) and the price per
gallon would be less. I've never asked what it would cost to fill my pool
43 time during one billing period.

Lou wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:

In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele
dishwasher can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A
more typical dishwasher costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five
times as expensive. That difference will buy an awful lot of water
- in my area, about 849,000 US gallons (3,213,814 liters).

When you figure in the sewage charge, my water is WAY more expensive
than that. About $12.50 per ccf, which is 748 gallons, or about 1.7
cents / gallon. Heating it cost significantly more than that in
addition, I'm sure. $3.50 of that $12.50 is the actual water charge.

Where I live, water and sewer are billed together, there's no way to
break them out. The sewage charge is based on the water used -
there's no meter on the drains. That means when I fill my pool or
water my lawn, I'm also paying a charge for sewer. I base my
estimates on the township water department - it's a long story, but
when I needed an estimate of how much it would cost to fill the pool,
the price they came up with was twenty bucks for my 20,000 gallon
pool. That works out to a cent per gallon.

The charges go up with increasing usage in a period - draw on that
20,000 gallons over a period of years (as a dishwasher would) and the
price per gallon would be less. I've never asked what it would cost
to fill my pool 43 time during one billing period.

My sewage charge is based on the usage in the winter, and thus doesn't go up
with summer watering. I arrange to re-fill the hot tub outside of wintertime. If
I had enough dishes to last the winter??

On 18/05/2010 01:32, Lou wrote:
"Bob wrote in message
...
Lou wrote:

In the US according to a quick web search, a full sized Miele
dishwasher can run from $1,249 to $2,149 depending on the model. A
more typical dishwasher costs $300-$400, making the Miele over five
times as expensive. That difference will buy an awful lot of water -
in my area, about 849,000 US gallons (3,213,814 liters).

When you figure in the sewage charge, my water is WAY more expensive than
that.
About $12.50 per ccf, which is 748 gallons, or about 1.7 cents / gallon.
Heating
it cost significantly more than that in addition, I'm sure. $3.50 of that
$12.50
is the actual water charge.

Where I live, water and sewer are billed together, there's no way to break
them out. The sewage charge is based on the water used - there's no meter
on the drains. That means when I fill my pool or water my lawn, I'm also
paying a charge for sewer. I base my estimates on the township water
department - it's a long story, but when I needed an estimate of how much it
would cost to fill the pool, the price they came up with was twenty bucks
for my 20,000 gallon pool. That works out to a cent per gallon.


I'm obviously missing something here, but isn't that two hundred bucks
to fill your pool? Or one tenth of a cent per gallon?

Incidentally, we are, erm, supposed to calculate water use as a gross
figure nowadays - water used in the production of stuff we use as well.

Rob

On May 17, 6:49*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and
extra return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a
button, and 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and
have it hot in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of
is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste"
hot water in the lines. Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled.
And I haven't dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting
for it to get hot. Try thinking.

Baloney. *The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. *Truy not
to make crap up.

I only did it. That is the result. Where does your expert opinion come from?

Experience and common sense. Water doesn't change temperuature
instantaneously. To get hot water you have to recycle until it's
hot. There will be hot water in the return line.

It works just like running the water to get hot water, but the water goes back
to the heater instead of down the drain. It isn't rocket science.

....and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS.

On May 18, 9:06*am, keith wrote:
On May 17, 6:49*pm, "Bob F" wrote:





keith wrote:
As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and
extra return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a
button, and 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and
have it hot in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of
is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste"
hot water in the lines. Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled.
And I haven't dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting
for it to get hot. Try thinking.

Baloney. *The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. *Truy not
to make crap up.

I only did it. That is the result. Where does your expert opinion come from?

Experience and common sense. *Water doesn't change temperuature
instantaneously. *To get hot water you have to recycle until it's
hot. *There will be hot water in the return line.

It works just like running the water to get hot water, but the water goes back
to the heater instead of down the drain. It isn't rocket science.

...and that water in the return line never gets hot? *...or it never
cools off? *You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have a
lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done using hot
water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up all of
that
40 F water.

On May 18, 8:18*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On May 18, 9:06*am, keith wrote:



On May 17, 6:49*pm, "Bob F" wrote:

keith wrote:
As I re-plumb my house, I have added a recirculation pump and
extra return line. If I'm going to want hot water, I push a
button, and 30 seconds later (or less) I can turn on the hot and
have it hot in 2 seconds.

At the cost of twice as much wasted hot water. I understand how a
recirculation pump works. How's this magic manifold work?

At the cost of no wasted hot water, in fact no wasted $.017/gallon
water. I don't have a clue what the "magic manifold" you speak of
is.

When you turn off the hot water you now have twice as much "waste"
hot water in the lines. Read the thread.

No, I don't. The pump turns off before the return pipe is filled.
And I haven't dumped the water in the pipe down the drain waiting
for it to get hot. Try thinking.

Baloney. *The water won't be up to temperature that quickly. *Truy not
to make crap up.

I only did it. That is the result. Where does your expert opinion come from?

Experience and common sense. *Water doesn't change temperuature
instantaneously. *To get hot water you have to recycle until it's
hot. *There will be hot water in the return line.

It works just like running the water to get hot water, but the water goes back
to the heater instead of down the drain. It isn't rocket science.

...and that water in the return line never gets hot? *...or it never
cools off? *You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. *If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have a
lot more work to do. *Yes, there are losses when he's done using hot
water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up all of
that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice the
loss.

keith wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done using hot
water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up all of
that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice the
loss.

Must be nice to know it all.

But you are wrong. Enough said.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have a
lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done using hot
water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up all of
that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably doubles the
savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

Bob F wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done using
hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up
all of that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably
doubles the savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

I guess we can always add that during the heating season, those losses heat the
house, cutting down furnace usage. Since I don't have A/C, no losses there.

On May 18, 10:13*am, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done using hot
water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up all of
that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice the
loss.

Must be nice to know it all.

But you are wrong. Enough said.

If you believe this you're amazingly stupid.

On May 18, 10:30*am, "Bob F" wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. *If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. *Yes, there are losses when he's done using
hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up
all of that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably
doubles the savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

I guess we can always add that during the heating season, those losses heat the
house, cutting down furnace usage. Since I don't have A/C, no losses there.

You're losing the heat and heating the house.

On May 18, 12:24*pm, keith wrote:
On May 18, 10:30*am, "Bob F" wrote:





Bob F wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. *If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. *Yes, there are losses when he's done using
hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up
all of that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably
doubles the savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

I guess we can always add that during the heating season, those losses heat the
house, cutting down furnace usage. Since I don't have A/C, no losses there.

You're losing the heat and heating the house.

I don't think Bob F ever said what his setup is like, but if his
plumbing runs
through the basement, the heating is negligible in practical terms.
Yes,
from a purely physics standpoint it's there, but it's like cooking a
pot of
soup with a candle.

Cindy Hamilton

On May 18, 12:27*pm, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On May 18, 12:24*pm, keith wrote:



On May 18, 10:30*am, "Bob F" wrote:

Bob F wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature..
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. *If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. *Yes, there are losses when he's done using
hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up
all of that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably
doubles the savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

I guess we can always add that during the heating season, those losses heat the
house, cutting down furnace usage. Since I don't have A/C, no losses there.

You're losing the heat and heating the house.

I don't think Bob F ever said what his setup is like, but if his
plumbing runs
through the basement, the heating is negligible in practical terms.
Yes,
from a purely physics standpoint it's there, but it's like cooking a
pot of
soup with a candle.

He was claiming that the waste heat helped in the Winter. ...can't
have it both ways.

Someone in the thread was pointing out heat loss in pipes. Well, it's
doubled, at minimum, if the hot water is recirculated back to the
water heater. ...can't have it both ways.

Yes, the losses may be insignificant (where "insignificant" is up to
the bill payer), but it *is* there. I won't buy CFLs because any
savings is insignificant.

keith wrote:
On May 18, 10:13 am, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it
never cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would
have a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done
using hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from
heating up all of that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice the
loss.

Must be nice to know it all.

But you are wrong. Enough said.

If you believe this you're amazingly stupid.

LOL!

keith wrote:
He was claiming that the waste heat helped in the Winter. ...can't
have it both ways.

Someone in the thread was pointing out heat loss in pipes. Well, it's
doubled, at minimum, if the hot water is recirculated back to the
water heater. ...can't have it both ways.

The hot water doesn't get back to the heater. The pump turns off before that.
The hot water gets to the faucet.

In article , "Bob F" wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it never
cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have
a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done using
hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up
all of that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably
doubles the savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

I guess we can always add that during the heating season, those losses heat the

house, cutting down furnace usage. Since I don't have A/C, no losses there.


The biggest problem is old heaters that constantly suck air out the
house through the one way exaust. A constant pilot produces constant
flow. Every day, all the time. A closed system is the most efficient.
I don't guess there is one that closes the pipe when there is no flame.

greg

On May 18, 9:56*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
He was claiming that the waste heat helped in the Winter. *...can't
have it both ways.

Someone in the thread was pointing out heat loss in pipes. *Well, it's
doubled, at minimum, if the hot water is recirculated back to the
water heater. *...can't have it both ways.

The hot water doesn't get back to the heater. The pump turns off before that.
The hot water gets to the faucet.

Then it accomplishes nothing. That is, you're lying.

On May 18, 9:54*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
On May 18, 10:13 am, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it
never cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would
have a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done
using hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from
heating up all of that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice the
loss.

Must be nice to know it all.

But you are wrong. Enough said.

If you believe this you're amazingly stupid.

LOL!

Your ignorance isn't that funny.

On May 18, 4:23*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"keith" wrote

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. *If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would have a
lot more work to do. *Yes, there are losses when he's done using hot
water, but probably not as great as the usage from heating up all of
that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice the
loss.

If it is heating season, there is no loss as you'd be adding heat to the air
in some form.

I addressed that issue too; you forget summer. There is no such thing
as a free lunch.

keith wrote:
On May 18, 9:54 pm, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
On May 18, 10:13 am, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it
never cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room
temperature. He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature.
If he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater
would have a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when
he's done using hot water, but probably not as great as the
usage from heating up all of that
40 F water.

But it's the *same* loss as that in the supply line, i.e. twice
the loss.

Must be nice to know it all.

But you are wrong. Enough said.

If you believe this you're amazingly stupid.

LOL!

Your ignorance isn't that funny.

My ignorance is smarter than your brilliance.

keith wrote:
On May 18, 9:56 pm, "Bob F" wrote:
keith wrote:
He was claiming that the waste heat helped in the Winter. ...can't
have it both ways.

Someone in the thread was pointing out heat loss in pipes. Well,
it's doubled, at minimum, if the hot water is recirculated back to
the water heater. ...can't have it both ways.

The hot water doesn't get back to the heater. The pump turns off
before that. The hot water gets to the faucet.

Then it accomplishes nothing. That is, you're lying.

Are you really this clueless?

Run the water down the drain until it gets hot at the tap, bringing in cold
water into the heater.

or

Run the same amount of water back to the heater till it is hot at the tap,
bringing in no cold water to the heater.

Which one wastes the most water?
Whick one wastes the most heat?

GregS wrote:
In article , "Bob F"
wrote:
Bob F wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:
...and that water in the return line never gets hot? ...or it
never cools off? You're FOS

Well, look at it this way:

The water in the return line is probably close to room temperature.
He only
has to heat it from room temperature to his target temperature. If
he was pulling in cold water from underground, his heater would
have a lot more work to do. Yes, there are losses when he's done
using hot water, but probably not as great as the usage from
heating up all of that
40 F water.

Very good point. I hadn't even thought of that aspect. It probably
doubles the savings I get.

It is nice to see others here that can really think.

I guess we can always add that during the heating season, those
losses heat the

house, cutting down furnace usage. Since I don't have A/C, no losses
there.


The biggest problem is old heaters that constantly suck air out the
house through the one way exaust. A constant pilot produces constant
flow. Every day, all the time. A closed system is the most efficient.
I don't guess there is one that closes the pipe when there is no
flame.

I think the power vent heaters would approximate that catagory.

On May 14, 9:44*am, Eric wrote:
What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also
practice, relating
to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for
food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income. Find alternatives. Live life moderately.

On May 27, 2:35*am, Zee wrote:
On May 14, 9:44*am, Eric wrote:

What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also
practice, relating
to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for
food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income. Find alternatives. Live life moderately.

Make more than you spend. Live life.

On Thu, 27 May 2010 00:35:08 -0700 (PDT), Zee
wrote:

On May 14, 9:44*am, Eric wrote:
What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also
practice, relating
to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for
food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income.

If only the last government had heeded that maxim...

--
Frank Erskine

On May 27, 8:57�am, keith wrote:
On May 27, 2:35�am, Zee wrote:

On May 14, 9:44�am, Eric wrote:

What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also
practice, relating
to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for
food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income. Find alternatives. Live life moderately.

Make more than you spend. �Live life.

learn the difference between needs and wants. you NEED food to
live!! But you may WANT to eat out at fancy restaurants nightly, but
you dont need to do that to live.

Its far easier to make your wants a little less than your income.

Trying to make enough to buy all your wants just becomes impossible.
the more you make the more you want, into a spiral of unlimited
spending maxed out credit cards etc

On May 27, 9:56*am, " wrote:
On May 27, 8:57 am, keith wrote:

On May 27, 2:35 am, Zee wrote:

On May 14, 9:44 am, Eric wrote:

What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also
practice, relating
to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for
food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income. Find alternatives. Live life moderately.

Make more than you spend. Live life.

learn the difference between needs and wants. you NEED food to
live!! But you may WANT to eat out at fancy restaurants nightly, but
you dont need to do that to live.

Wants are part of living life. Needs are boring.

Its far easier to make your wants a little less than your income.

It's much more fun to have an income that exceeds your wants. Again,
part of living life.

Trying to make enough to buy all your wants just becomes impossible.

Some prioritizing is always needed, sure. Some wants really aren't,
at the end of the day.

the more you make the more you want, into a spiral of unlimited
spending maxed out credit cards etc

Wrong!

In ,
Frank Erskine spewed forth:
On Thu, 27 May 2010 00:35:08 -0700 (PDT), Zee
wrote:

On May 14, 9:44 am, Eric wrote:
What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also
practice, relating
to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for
food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income.

If only the last government had heeded that maxim...

Oh, and the present one is?

Frank Erskine wrote
Zee wrote
Eric wrote

What are currently your best saving tips you recommend and also practice,
relating to how you make your money go much further than it used to, whether
it's for food - weekly living expenses, home and financial investment, etc.

Spend less than your income.

If only the last government had heeded that maxim...

We'd be in a great depression or worse, just like we ended up in one the last time a govt tried that just after a crash.