On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:51:15 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Your general statement has one bad assumption. USA ones may be - nearly
all the new ones here in teh UK (including washing machines) are cold
feed only.

Dumb.

Not at all. I explained about the wastage in the pipe, and someone else
has explained it again.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
(with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
fills over 1-1.5 hours.

Someone just said six gallons, total. Models differ somewhat, but dishwashers
use significantly less water than washing by hand.

If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has
to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
bothering with.

Why do you put your water heaters out in the street? Almost every house I've
seen (with this being a *dumb* exception) has the plumbing centralized. My
first house had a run of less than ten feet to every hot-water tap in the
house.

Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to
produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and
cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up.

There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as
they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to
do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold
with a gentle warm up in the machine.

Our washing machine is right underneath the water heater.

On 15 May 2010 18:57:31 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:51:15 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Your general statement has one bad assumption. USA ones may be - nearly
all the new ones here in teh UK (including washing machines) are cold
feed only.

Dumb.

Not at all. I explained about the wastage in the pipe, and someone else
has explained it again.

It doesn't matter how many times it's "explained", it's dumb!

wrote in message
...
On 15 May 2010 18:10:49 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

8

Over here, dishwashers are usually cold fill.

That's dumb.

Over here dishwashers only use a few litre of hot water.
Its cheaper to heat it in the machine than to use hot fill.


They use very little water,
so often they would fill mostly cold anyway, from water lying in the pipe.

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
(with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up
to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill dishwasher.

Tim Watts wrote:
On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the
dishes. Seems like an even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed
dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
fills over 1-1.5 hours.

If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine
has to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
bothering with.

Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up
to produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage
and cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger
warmed up.

If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
costs.

dennis@home wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 15 May 2010 18:10:49 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

8

Over here, dishwashers are usually cold fill.

That's dumb.

Over here dishwashers only use a few litre of hot water.
Its cheaper to heat it in the machine than to use hot fill.


They use very little water,
so often they would fill mostly cold anyway, from water lying in
the pipe.

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
get the tap up to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an
even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill
dishwasher.

But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.

When something is a fad, buy those selling it - not the fad.

Everyone buying dot-com stocks?
- Buy the banksters selling the crap.

Everyone buying Apple laptop & desktop?
- Buy the company making the hugely profitable, relatively low tech,
high marketing items.

Case in point buying Apple circa 1989 when the Macintosh II was about
the same as a basic car (6700) and a similar spec'd out PC was about
5x less (1400). I recall a company at the time spent 850,000 on
Macintosh II and I wonder if they wish they had spent 150,000 on PCs
and put 700,000 on AAPL shares. The value now would be quite
hilarious.

Diversify your risk, which means a very broad global asset portfolio
because the word "Billion" is becoming pocket change to the lips of
politicians and bankers alike - which is usually just before life
savings end up buying a loaf of bread. I think the optimistic view of
TARP / Euro-TARP / UK-OOPS being cleared is by 2030 but most expect by
2040. Unfortunately that excludes the cost of social security &
medical for rising numbers of retirees which makes reducing deficits
virtually impossible. That in turn means they get to shoot currencies,
watch the euro fall apart, germany's weak currency advantage
protecting its manufacturing vanish (nice USA plan in here somewhere),
and eventually USA tell China where it can stick its Treasury bills
"come and collect it... just not everyone at once ok".

On Sat, 15 May 2010 18:26:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the washing
machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;-

My dear old mum refused point blank to get a washing machine. Had a
gas power copper boiler in the corner of the kitchen and a poser.
Orginally the boiler had a mangle on the top, I remember winding the
handle as a lad. The rubber on the rollers eventually perished and an
upright spin dryer was purchased. But she never had a washing
machine.

Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
(family of 4),
snip
But the 2nd biggest cost after food was actually Council Tax

No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as
they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to
do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold
with a gentle warm up in the machine.

Yep, stored ho****er is normally 60C plus, far too hot for the normal
40C wash. You don't really want protien based stains/marks getting
too hot either or they'll denature and be a right begger to shift.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Bob F" wrote


So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
get the tap up to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an
even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

How can that be true, no hot water is wasted in a cold fill
dishwasher.

But heating it may cost more, if the water heater is gas, for instance.



In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the equivalent
of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil. Gas was about the same. The places we
stayed did not have a dishwasher so I could not tell you if it was a cold
water start. Where we were, there was no natural gas either.

Offsetting the price of fuel, wine is good, plentiful, and cheap. You'd be
amazed at what you can get for $2 to $4 a bottle.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil. Gas was about the same.
The places we stayed did not have a dishwasher so I could not tell you
if it was a cold water start. Where we were, there was no natural gas
either.

Offsetting the price of fuel, wine is good, plentiful, and cheap.
You'd be amazed at what you can get for $2 to $4 a bottle.



You have to drink a hell of a lot of wine to offset those fuel prices.

"Dave Smith" wrote in message
. com...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil. Gas was about the same.
The places we stayed did not have a dishwasher so I could not tell you if
it was a cold water start. Where we were, there was no natural gas
either.

Offsetting the price of fuel, wine is good, plentiful, and cheap. You'd
be amazed at what you can get for $2 to $4 a bottle.



You have to drink a hell of a lot of wine to offset those fuel prices.

We did

On Sat, 15 May 2010 13:58:53 -0700, "Bob F" wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:
On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the
dishes. Seems like an even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed
dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
fills over 1-1.5 hours.

If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine
has to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
bothering with.

Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up
to produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage
and cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger
warmed up.

If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
costs.

Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:43:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil.

Some one saw you coming... 46p/l roughly the current price for 28sec
heating oil at current exchange rates is US$2.50/US Gallon (remember
a US galllon is only 3.78l, an Imperial gallon is 4.54l).

US$6.50/US Gallon is about £1.18/l even when 28 sec was eye
wateringly expensive a year or so back it wasn't that much. Round
here it peaked at about 65p/l.

Now if you are talking about pump prices for petrol (gas) or diesel
those are currently about US$6.50/US Gallon.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/05/10 20:03, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim wrote:

On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
(with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
fills over 1-1.5 hours.

Someone just said six gallons, total. Models differ somewhat, but dishwashers
use significantly less water than washing by hand.

6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
or 2.85 imperial gallons.

If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has
to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
bothering with.

Why do you put your water heaters out in the street? Almost every house I've
seen (with this being a *dumb* exception) has the plumbing centralized. My
first house had a run of less than ten feet to every hot-water tap in the
house.

10m was a random guess. Perhaps 6m would be more realistic average. Of
course, those of us who own mansions ;- That's 2m just to get upstairs,
then 3m to get across to wherever the tank is then 2m for wibbling pipe
around the tank and the sink. Still a sizeable fraction of the fill and
the point about combi boilers stands (these are increasingly popular here).

Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to
produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and
cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up.

There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as
they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to
do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold
with a gentle warm up in the machine.

Our washing machine is right underneath the water heater.



--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 15/05/10 22:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 18:26:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the washing
machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;-

My dear old mum refused point blank to get a washing machine. Had a
gas power copper boiler in the corner of the kitchen and a poser.
Orginally the boiler had a mangle on the top, I remember winding the
handle as a lad. The rubber on the rollers eventually perished and an
upright spin dryer was purchased. But she never had a washing
machine.

Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
(family of 4),
snip
But the 2nd biggest cost after food was actually Council Tax

No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.


2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 23:23:02 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 15/05/10 22:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 18:26:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the
washing machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;-

My dear old mum refused point blank to get a washing machine. Had a gas
power copper boiler in the corner of the kitchen and a poser. Orginally
the boiler had a mangle on the top, I remember winding the handle as a
lad. The rubber on the rollers eventually perished and an upright spin
dryer was purchased. But she never had a washing machine.

Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
(family of 4),
snip
But the 2nd biggest cost after food was actually Council Tax

No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.


2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

And one of the lowest costs was healthcare! .-)

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

zzzzzzzzzz wrote
Bob Eager wrote
zzzzzzzzzz wrote

Yeah - the heating costs are the significant part by far.

Nope, the detergent costs more, essentially because so little water is used.

And a dishwasher uses electric heating, whereas
hot water may be heated by gas, solar, wood etc.

It doesnt get hot enough by solar.

Dish washers are plumbed to the hot water.

Some are, some arent.

They get their water from the same place your sink does,

Only the cold water.

and less of it.

Many dish washers do have heaters to boost the temperature further,

And so starting with solar doesnt help much cost wise.

something you can't do washing by hand.

Corse you can.

Again, you're assuming the U.S.

Over here, dishwashers are usually cold fill.

That's dumb.

Nope. It works better to start with cold water so you dont bake
on what what is on the plates etc and to heat that from cold.

They use very little water, so often they would fill
mostly cold anyway, from water lying in the pipe.

He's right.

So you waste the water in the pipes either way.

Nope, not if the dishwasher heats from cold.

If you're washing by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water
needed to get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes.

Yes, but not with a dishwasher that uses cold water.

Seems like an even stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

Nope.

On 15/05/2010 23:23, Tim Watts wrote:

No car? Groceries are our biggest bill but following close behind is
the car. Energy and council tax fight over 3rd.

2 actually. But SWMBO commutes by train (no driving, we live pretty much
next to the station) and I only use it for dump runs and DIY pickups and
days out. I fill up maybe every 2 months.

Depreciation, MOT, insurance, tax, repairs. Our car only gets used for
recreational trips too (though some of them can be quite a long way),
and I think even with zero depreciation (car bought for 500 quid 5 years
ago - it's not worth anything :-) ) it's still going to cost more than
our council tax every year. Close though.

Tim Watts wrote
zzzzzzzzzz wrote

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing
by hand (with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to
get the tap up to temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even stronger argument for a
hot-water plumed dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of
water over several fills over 1-1.5 hours.

They dont necessarily heat all those fills tho.

If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per fill so half of that is cold either way

Its rather more than half because some heat
is lost from the second half heating the pipe.

and the central heating has to heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine
has to heat the other half from cold effectively.

And has to heat even the hottest water even more too.

So it's hardly worth bothering with.

Particularly when you consider the baking on effect below.

Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up
to produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage
and cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger
warmed up.

There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as they use around 55 litres of water for a wash

But most clothes washing works fine in cold water. Dishwashing doesnt.

- but that's something to do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold with a gentle warm
up in the machine.

Its not actually the detergent. Starting with cold
water avoids baking the food onto the plates.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
(with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
fills over 1-1.5 hours.

Actually most (all?) Miele dishwashers are cold or hot fill.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
wrote:

If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
costs.

Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
systems are insulated....

The Real Bev wrote
Lou wrote
Tim Watts wrote
Bill wrote

Transition from "American Dream" living to "3rd world country" living.

Do dishes by hand.

That often consumes more water with today's efficient dishwashers.

That's true. According to the user manual for my dishwasher, the
most efficient cycle uses less than 6 gallons of water to do a full load.

However, for the cost of the dishwasher, it's possible to buy enough
water to float a boat. In my municipality, the water department
calculated that filling my pool (approximately 20,000 gallons) cost
about $20. So the price of a lower end dishwasher costing around
$300 would buy around 300,000 gallons of water at that price, which
is enough water to wash an awful lot of dishes. But then there's
the cost of heating the additional water washing by hand would use
over what the dishwasher uses.

Especially if you just rinse off your dish after you use it.

No thanks, I prefer not to bother.

You don't have to use hot water, though, so that complicates the calculation.

Still, it's no contest as far as I'm concerned - a dishwasher is far more convenient than washing dishes by hand, and
is a home appliance I wouldn't want to be without.

Yeah, me too. Washing machine in spades.

That's what I thought until I actually used one.

Thats what I know when I keep using one.

You have to rinse/scrape all the crap (especially dried egg) off the dishes before you put them in the washer

No you dont. I dont bother at all and it works fine.

I dont even bother with the things that the food is cooked in either.

-- especially if it takes you several days to fill the washer.

It takes me 9, and I dont bother.

If you air-dry them to save on electricity, some of the items (cup/glass bottoms, for instance) don't dry.

Mine always do. And I have no choice on the air dry, thats all the dishwasher can do.

If you have enough dishes to more than fill the washer
you can either let the extras hang around until you have enough to run another load or wash them by hand.

Or have enough of a clue to start the dishwasher when its full.

The squeaky-clean feeling of the dishes that the washer DOES clean is nice,

Yep, leave hand washed for dead.

but that seems marginal unless you're way more anal-retentive than I am.

Nope.

And I HATE washing dishes anyway.

And the dishwasher leaves the alternative for dead when
washing the grill/shutter for the kitchen exhaust fan etc.

And I wouldnt even bother to brew beer if I had to wash the emptys by
hand. I only ever got started when a mate of mine told me that the 375ml
glass bottles are fine in the dishwasher and I proved that he was right.

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 May 2010 12:29:56 -0400, Lou wrote:

That's true. According to the user manual for my dishwasher, the most
efficient cycle uses less than 6 gallons of water to do a full load.

However, for the cost of the dishwasher, it's possible to buy enough
water to float a boat. In my municipality, the water department
calculated that filling my pool (approximately 20,000 gallons) cost
about $20. So the price of a lower end dishwasher costing around $300
would buy around 300,000 gallons of water at that price, which is enough
water to wash an awful lot of dishes. But then there's the cost of
heating the additional water washing by hand would use over what the
dishwasher uses.

Your understandably US-centric view omits the fact that, for many in the
UK, a flat charge is paid for water.

My view is not US-centric, it's me-centric. In my 60 mumble years, the only
time I've paid by the gallon for water is in my present house. Before that,
I had a well, or rented a dwelling. For the well, the incremental cost of a
gallon of water was the electricity to pump it. When I rented, water was
included in the rent.

Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
particular account might use?

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 15/05/10 17:29, Lou wrote:
"Tim wrote in message
...
On 15/05/10 16:07, Bill wrote:
Transition from "American Dream" living to "3rd world country" living.

Do dishes by hand.

That often consumes more water with today's efficient dishwashers.

That's true. According to the user manual for my dishwasher, the most
efficient cycle uses less than 6 gallons of water to do a full load.

However, for the cost of the dishwasher, it's possible to buy enough
water
to float a boat. In my municipality, the water department calculated
that
filling my pool (approximately 20,000 gallons) cost about $20. So the
price
of a lower end dishwasher costing around $300 would buy around 300,000
gallons of water at that price, which is enough water to wash an awful
lot
of dishes.

I get an infinite amount of water (well, restricted by the 1/2" main
pipe which limits to about 55 litres/min) for my money. Though others
round here are on meters, I've so far escaped.

But then there's the cost of heating the additional water
washing by hand would use over what the dishwasher uses.

Yeah - the heating costs are the significant part by far. And a
dishwasher uses electric heating, whereas hot water may be heated by
gas, solar, wood etc.

On the other hand, you may be heating a lot less water, and so may end up
paying less when all is said and done. Incidentally, my water, which
includes the water used by the dishwasher, is heated by gas.


Still, it's no contest as far as I'm concerned - a dishwasher is far
more
convenient than washing dishes by hand, and is a home appliance I
wouldn't
want to be without.

Me too. But if you tried washing by hand (I did when on holiday in
Latvia - washed my clothes in the river!), you may find that the washing
machine *is* the machine you cannot live without ;-

Last time I did a costs analysis in England, food was the biggest bill
(family of 4), electric only heating in winter (rebuilding a house, so
lack of insulation and no gas heating yet). But the 2nd biggest cost
after food was actually Council Tax (pays for the police to harrass me,
that sort of thing). And there's nothing I can do about that other than
sell and buy a smaller house, or a house in a different area...

For me, the biggest monthly bill is the mortgage. But that's only the
biggest one I write a check for. Federal taxes - income and social
security - are bigger yet. Local property taxes (I guess that's more or
less the equivalent of your Concil Tax) come in third.

On 16/05/10 00:33, Lou wrote:

Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
particular account might use?

Used to be. Now water meters are appearing everywhere. Lots of people
are still unmetered (like me) but the water companies are gaining the
rights to add compulsory metering to everyone.

It's probably a case that (until we get a drought) the incremental costs
are low anyway so they don't much care.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 16/05/10 00:40, Lou wrote:

For me, the biggest monthly bill is the mortgage.

TBF the rent was the killer on my last place. I own this one outright so
I'd forgotton about that.

But that's only the
biggest one I write a check for. Federal taxes - income and social
security - are bigger yet.

Another good one. Yes, Income Tax and National Insurance are fairly
high. But we have a sneaky scheme called PAYE (Pay as you earn) where,
unless you bother to read your payslip, you only see the net amount -
taxes and NI are creamed off before you get your pay for a majority of jobs.

Local property taxes (I guess that's more or
less the equivalent of your Concil Tax) come in third.





--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 23:20:17 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 15/05/10 20:03, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:47:19 +0100, Tim wrote:

On 15/05/10 19:34, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

So you waste the water in the pipes either way. If you're washing by hand
(with hot water) you're wasting all the hot water needed to get the tap up to
temperature, plus the water needed to do the dishes. Seems like an even
stronger argument for a hot-water plumed dishwasher.

No, because 10m of 15mm dia pipe contains 1.7 l of water. A typical
model 60cm wide Miele dishawasher takes in 13l of water over several
fills over 1-1.5 hours.

Someone just said six gallons, total. Models differ somewhat, but dishwashers
use significantly less water than washing by hand.

6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
or 2.85 imperial gallons.

I just repeated a number thrown about here. How many cycles?

If it takes 4 fills (I haven't counted) that's about 3l of water per
fill so half of that is cold either way and the central heating has to
heat that half just to waste it cooling in the pipe and the machine has
to heat the other half from cold effectively. So it's hardly worth
bothering with.

Why do you put your water heaters out in the street? Almost every house I've
seen (with this being a *dumb* exception) has the plumbing centralized. My
first house had a run of less than ten feet to every hot-water tap in the
house.

10m was a random guess. Perhaps 6m would be more realistic average. Of
course, those of us who own mansions ;- That's 2m just to get upstairs,
then 3m to get across to wherever the tank is then 2m for wibbling pipe
around the tank and the sink. Still a sizeable fraction of the fill and
the point about combi boilers stands (these are increasingly popular here).

As I said in another thread, one house was 10' - maximum (more like 5') to any
hot water tap in the house. This house has the water heater in a really
strange place (above the garage) and even it's not 20'.

Things may be worse with a combi boiler that actually has to fire up to
produce hot water from cold mains - there's now pipework wastage and
cold coming from the boiler while it gets the heat exchanger warmed up.

There is a stonger argument for a washing machine having a hot fill as
they use around 55 litres of water for a wash - but that's something to
do with (supposedly) the modern detergents preferring to work from cold
with a gentle warm up in the machine.

Our washing machine is right underneath the water heater.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:54:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
wrote:

If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
costs.

Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
systems are insulated....

I have a PEX manifold system, too, but see no way of sending cold water back.
How's that work? You have a bypass at each faucet?

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
or 2.85 imperial gallons.


I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six US
gallons works out to 22.7 liters. A dishwasher is big enough to handle
day's worth of dishes (on a normal day, not a holiday like Christmas) for
2 - 4 people eating two meals each at home. Call it big enough to handle
four to eight place settings, plus the pots and pans used to prepare the
meals, and miscellaneous items like beverage glasses used during the day, a
coffee pot, etc. Some higher priced dishwashers use less water, but the
higher price isn't worth it, at least for me.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:33:02 -0400, "Lou" wrote:

Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
particular account might use?

No. An increasing number of water users in the UK have their
consumption metered.
For unmetered customers the 'flat charge' is variable, depending on
the 'rateable value' of the premises, i.e. the basis upon which local
taxation is levied. A fairly low-using customer, for example a single
person, living in a reasonably affluent place, is much better-off
having a metered supply.
Unlike energy (electricity/gas) suppliers the water people generally
have a sort of monopoly in a particular area.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:01:56 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:54:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
wrote:

If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
costs.

Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
systems are insulated....

I have a PEX manifold system, too, but see no way of sending cold water back.
How's that work? You have a bypass at each faucet?

I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
the heater, when hot is demanded.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

[snip]

We no longer have cable TV. A $25 investment in binoculars allows me to
watch the neighbor's TV across the street. In the summer, I can even get
some sound as they open the windows.



Recycle your own food. Eat in the bathroom.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:43:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In Europe, all fuels are expensive. Last time there I paid the
equivalent of $6.50 a gallon for heating oil.

Some one saw you coming... 46p/l roughly the current price for 28sec
heating oil at current exchange rates is US$2.50/US Gallon (remember
a US galllon is only 3.78l, an Imperial gallon is 4.54l).

US$6.50/US Gallon is about £1.18/l even when 28 sec was eye
wateringly expensive a year or so back it wasn't that much. Round
here it peaked at about 65p/l.

Now if you are talking about pump prices for petrol (gas) or diesel
those are currently about US$6.50/US Gallon.

In some countries the price of heating oil is about the same as the pump
price for diesel and yes, it is quite high. I think you are closer to the
oil fields and refineries too. Euro at the time was about 1.33. We only
needed about 5 gallons for our stay so it was not a big deal in the scheme
of things.

"Lou" wrote in message
...

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

6 gallons!?? How bloody big are your dishwashers? 13l is 3.4 US gallons
or 2.85 imperial gallons.


I don't know what you mean by "gallon" - that was 6 US gallons, consisting
for 4 quarts of 32 ounces each, not 5 quarts of 40 ounces each. Six US
gallons works out to 22.7 liters.

That six gallons is for the complete cycle. Pre-wash, wash, rinse, final
rinse.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:01:56 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 15:54:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2010 16:57:59 -0500, "
wrote:

If the pipes are insulated, they don't lose that much in one run. Heating water
with gas here cost about half what letting the dishwasher heat it electrically
costs.

Few pipes are insulated, and even fewer in walls. All pipes, no matter how
much insulation, will lose the heat in the entire run each cycle.

I have a PEX manifold system. When hot is demanded, the cold is sent
back to the water heater. I get hot water faster that way. Granted all
systems are insulated....

I have a PEX manifold system, too, but see no way of sending cold water back.
How's that work? You have a bypass at each faucet?

I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

In article ,
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren wrote:
[ ... ]
I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

I believe that's a convection circulating system.

Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping, with
a large central boiler as the source.


Gary

--
Gary Heston http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Did you hear about the new saint, San Adreas? He's the patron saint of
blame, it's all his fault.

On Sat, 15 May 2010 22:42:56 -0500, (Gary Heston) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 17:47:19 -0700, Oren wrote:
[ ... ]
I'm not expert. I'm not sure of the word that would describe my PEX
manifold (not looking at my *.PDF). There is a loop H/C at the top. I
wish I knew the exact wording, but I know cold water is looped back to
the heater, when hot is demanded.

If you can find a reference for this I'd appreciate it.

Gosh that "word" escapes me now.

I believe that's a convection circulating system.

Large buildings use a circulating pump in the hot water piping, with
a large central boiler as the source.

But for hot water? Residential? It's possible, sure, just would like to see
how this thing works. Sounds too complicated to be reliable.

What are currently your best saving tips you recommend

Best tip is NOT CROSSPOSTING to 5 Newsgroups at a time

On Sat, 15 May 2010 19:33:02 -0400, Lou wrote:

Your understandably US-centric view omits the fact that, for many in
the UK, a flat charge is paid for water.

My view is not US-centric, it's me-centric. In my 60 mumble years, the
only time I've paid by the gallon for water is in my present house.
Before that, I had a well, or rented a dwelling. For the well, the
incremental cost of a gallon of water was the electricity to pump it.
When I rented, water was included in the rent.

Everywhere in the UK it's a flat charge, no matter how much water a
particular account might use?

What I said above. For *many* in the UK.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor