Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:37:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)
Depends a lot on the meter.
With a Fluke or Amprobe meter, not very likely to have a problem, but
with a $9.99 (on sale for $4.99) Harbour Fright special and many other
cheap chinese DMMs it's almost a given.

It is just as easy (maybe more so) for the Fluke or other high dollar meter
to read the 'induced' voltage. I use the Fluke meters almost every day at
work and have one at home. Most of the time if I want to get serious with
the power wiring I will get my trusty Simpson 260. When dealing with some
480 volt 3 phase circuits running in conduit, you can pick up lots of odd
voltages that are not really there. For example one circuit would read
around 100 volts on the Fluke , light up a neon bulb tester, shock the fool
out of you, and read about 30 volts on the Simpson. This is with the wires
disconnected at the breaker.

It is not so much the meter, but the person that is using it. YOu have to
know when the meter is 'lying' to you.
Many people can not do that. Especially the people that seldom use a meter.



Sometimes the simplest tools are the best, like the good old Wiggy.

http://www.amazon.com/Klein-69115-So.../dp/B000KII9SM

TDD

On Apr 2, 9:36*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/2/2010 4:00 PM Nate Nagel spake thus:





On 04/02/2010 07:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote:

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out
inductive ghost voltages.

It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated
every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their
home's wiring.

One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable
instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie
dust.

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM.
Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral
and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It's not a problem, it's just the way that it works. *It makes sense
once it's explained.

The OP, I am 99% sure, *has* no ground,

Agreed; the ground pin of his outlet is wired to nothing.

so that's why he isn't reading 0V between neutral and ground. His
situation is more analogous to sticking one probe in the socket and
just holding the other one in the air.

So why didn't that happen to me when I took my measurements? I put one
probe in the socket, in the hot side, and the other in the air, and I
got 0.0 volts.

Look--I understand the concept of phantom readings, and I know they're a
problem under some circumstances. I just don't think they're as
ever-present as some folks claim. I certainly have taken many accurate
measurements using a DMM (and yes, comparing them to an analog VOM and
gotten exactly the same results).

--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"


That is the difference between using a Digital Multimeter that can be
safely used to determine the presence of line voltage on electrical
wires
namely a "low impedance" multimeter and the incorrect use of a high
impedance multimeter which will incorrectly read "voltage" because of
the capacitance effect being amplified by the length of the wiring in
the
circuit being measured...

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Since you don't do wikipedia (not even to use the referenced source
materials for background verification of the articles) here is a
reference:
http://www.nema.org/stds/eng-bulleti...ulletin-88.pdf

~ Evan

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on my
long wiring runs. I'm listening.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of
readings.


The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital meter so it
shouldn't show phantom voltage.

But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test for sure there
is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know the
limitations of test equipment.

--
bud--

"Nonny" wrote in message
...

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing
really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want
to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning
down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave


Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

Tony, please explain the fire without the abstract talk-around. Could you
please explain it? Please explain a floating ground and how it can spark
a fire.

--
Nonny
Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member
of Congress.... But then I repeat myself.'

-Mark Twain
.

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't
tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

Yes, I am absolutely certain. My Fluke makes it unmistakably plain.

Dave

"Nonny" wrote in message
...

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing
really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want
to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning
down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave


Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

Tony, please explain the fire without the abstract talk-around. Could you
please explain it? Please explain a floating ground and how it can spark
a fire.


Yes, *Please explain.* Otherwise you are just wasting all our time (and
especially mine.)

Dave

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on
with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it.

Many thanks.

Dave

On 04/02/2010 09:11 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 2, 5:05 pm, Tony wrote:
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Hi,
Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker
which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground
and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is
broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb
between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will
glow at half brightness or so.

OP said house was built in '49 or '50, there wouldn't have *been* any
ground unless the wiring was run in pipe or BX.

nate
Grounded Romex was introduced about 1947 . It hit the market in a big
way in 1950 and was pretty standard by 1954 and the ground was
required by code almost universally by 1962.

My own house was built only a year or two before the OP's ('48 or '49)
and there isn't a ground to be seen except in the basement where BX was
used.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:43:40 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

We lived, somehow, for years with non polarized two prong
sockets. We had some problems, but everyone does.

We had an Emerson radio with a plasstic case that was chipped, so the
metal chassis on the bottom touched the metal table that the radio was
on. The table touched the metal edging around the formica kitchen
counter, and touching that anywhere along the 10 feet of it gave a
small tingle. Wouldn't have happened these days.

But otoh, it made me strong. The electricity stimulated the growth
of dendrites and chest hair, so now I'm the man I am.

I actually don't think it was a big problem, but otoh, for new
construction all theese changes have cost very little.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on
with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it.

In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to
take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or
put a two slot receptacle back in.

Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be?

Many thanks.

Dave

On Apr 2, 9:20*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:53:44 -0800, David Nebenzahl





wrote:
On 4/2/2010 2:45 PM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 4:37 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It *has happened to me on two different occasions. *It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Nope, I've got a Harbor Freight el cheapo (think I paid $3 for it). So
how is it that I got completely accurate readings of my AC line voltage
with it?

Just because YOUR cheap meter worked right when you tested YOUR
circuit doesn't mean SOME other cheap meters won't misbehave or
misread on SOME circuits - but I'd also lean towards it being a
floating neutral (did I say floating ground in my first post??? - not
sure - but floating NEUTRAL is what I meant to say.



If anything, a cheap digital VOM may be less likely to show a stray
voltage. It isn't actually a case of misbehaving or misreading.
The issue is digital VOMs have very high input impedances and hence
present virually no load to the circuit being measured. In other
words, they are taking a true measurement and NOT disturbing the
circuit. The older analog VOMs had lower input impedances. And I
wouldn't be surprised if some of the cheap $10 digital ones do too.

Still, I have to agree with David that the incidence of this occuring
may be over reported. I have an excellent Fluke VOM and can't say
I've seen this to be much of a problem. I would suspect that in at
least some cases, something other than just having a true unconnected,
floating wire picking up induced voltage is going on. Which is to
say, somehow, somewhere, that wire is connected through some high
resistance to some other live circuit.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:43:40 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

We lived, somehow, for years with non polarized two prong
sockets. We had some problems, but everyone does.

It was not the floating ground directly that caused the
problem. It was his total ignoring the general electrical flaws, many
of wich he personally wired that was the most likely cause of the
fire.

As a person and a boss, I greatly respected him. But he just
did not understand mechanical things. He could pick up a first
communion photo and name all the kids in the 30 year old photo.

I mixed photo chemicals to save a few pennies, but he would
rip up any photo that could or should be better. He treated his
employees and customers like family.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Sorry, I don't do Wikipedia (the "encyclopedia" that can be edited by
any pimple-faced 7th grader).

If I have to look up something on Wikipedia, it's likely that the
pimply-faced 7th grader who wrote the article knows far more about the
subject than I.

"mm" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:


"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on
with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this.
Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it.

In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to
take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or
put a two slot receptacle back in.

Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be?

Many thanks.

Dave



I do have to do the whole house. Every plug is this way. And, the AC
compressor that uses 240? It's on *three different breakers*. If any of
them are on, it comes on when called upon. I'm thinking that the problem
must be in the service entrance, or the whole house wouldn't be
bass-ackwards with 59 VAC between every slot and the GND terminal (which is
not connected to anything.) I am thinking the person who said this was the
same thing you woud see with an PC that had an RF filter and no ground knew
what they were talking about. Wish I did. I can almost wrap my mind around
everything but the three breakers for the AC. And no, I am not making this
up. Whoever wired this house, or rewired it, had to have been either
stupid, crazy or on drugs (pick two out of three.)

Dave (who is not happy right now.)

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:52:55 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 5:45 AM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:17:08 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on
my long wiring runs. I'm listening.

It all depends on how the wires are terminated. If one is solidly
grounded and the other has no connection at all you have an antenna
and a high impedance meter will register voltage. The amount of
voltage will depend on how well the wire gets coupled to the fields
around the house.
Cheap really has nothing to do with it. Our $300 Fluke meters had the
same problem. Guys who were used to the Tripplets we had called them
"random number generators".

Well, OK, but I cannot believe that a DMM is going to pick up a false
reading of *59 volts*. 59 millivolts, sure, but the OP insists that his
meter is telling him there's 59 volts between each of hot & neutral and
ground. This cannot be due to stray induced voltage.

Yes, it can. Let's say there is a ground wire connected at the outlet
but disconnected at the other end of a long piece of romex. There is
a small amount of capacitance between that disconnected ground and hot
as well a the same amount of capacitance between that ground and
neutral. That would effectively create a voltage divider and show 50%
of the voltage on the ground wire.

wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:52:55 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 5:45 AM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:17:08 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on
my long wiring runs. I'm listening.

It all depends on how the wires are terminated. If one is solidly
grounded and the other has no connection at all you have an antenna
and a high impedance meter will register voltage. The amount of
voltage will depend on how well the wire gets coupled to the fields
around the house.
Cheap really has nothing to do with it. Our $300 Fluke meters had the
same problem. Guys who were used to the Tripplets we had called them
"random number generators".

Well, OK, but I cannot believe that a DMM is going to pick up a false
reading of *59 volts*. 59 millivolts, sure, but the OP insists that his
meter is telling him there's 59 volts between each of hot& neutral and
ground. This cannot be due to stray induced voltage.

Yes, it can. Let's say there is a ground wire connected at the outlet
but disconnected at the other end of a long piece of romex. There is
a small amount of capacitance between that disconnected ground and hot
as well a the same amount of capacitance between that ground and
neutral. That would effectively create a voltage divider and show 50%
of the voltage on the ground wire.
Hi,
Proving whether it is real voltage is simpe, just hook up a light bulb.
If it lights up it is real voltage if not, it is nothing.

On 4/3/2010 5:45 AM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:17:08 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on
my long wiring runs. I'm listening.

It all depends on how the wires are terminated. If one is solidly
grounded and the other has no connection at all you have an antenna
and a high impedance meter will register voltage. The amount of
voltage will depend on how well the wire gets coupled to the fields
around the house.
Cheap really has nothing to do with it. Our $300 Fluke meters had the
same problem. Guys who were used to the Tripplets we had called them
"random number generators".

Well, OK, but I cannot believe that a DMM is going to pick up a false
reading of *59 volts*. 59 millivolts, sure, but the OP insists that his
meter is telling him there's 59 volts between each of hot & neutral and
ground. This cannot be due to stray induced voltage.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Apr 3, 4:17*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on my
long wiring runs. I'm listening.

--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

Because it is the CORRECT "low impedance" multimeter that can
accurately measure line voltage circuits...

The cost is irrelevant, as long as the multimeter is the correct type,
you will be able to properly measure for the actual presence or
absence of hazardous line voltages...

~ Evan

On 04/03/2010 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:
wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote:


"Bob wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on
with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this.
Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it.

In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to
take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or
put a two slot receptacle back in.

Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be?

Many thanks.

Dave



I do have to do the whole house. Every plug is this way. And, the AC
compressor that uses 240? It's on *three different breakers*. If any of
them are on, it comes on when called upon. I'm thinking that the problem
must be in the service entrance, or the whole house wouldn't be
bass-ackwards with 59 VAC between every slot and the GND terminal (which is
not connected to anything.) I am thinking the person who said this was the
same thing you woud see with an PC that had an RF filter and no ground knew
what they were talking about. Wish I did. I can almost wrap my mind around
everything but the three breakers for the AC. And no, I am not making this
up. Whoever wired this house, or rewired it, had to have been either
stupid, crazy or on drugs (pick two out of three.)

Dave (who is not happy right now.)


As others have stated, use an incandescent test light or analog meter to
test voltage to "ground." I bet there really is none. This is not a
"problem" per se but you really should be using GFCIs on any ungrounded
circuits with grounding type receptacles.

Three breakers for the A/C sounds hinky though. You should have one
double breaker for the A/C, period. If you can't figure that one out
yourself, you may wish to call an electrician to look at it - something
ain't right there.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

David Nebenzahl wrote:


I told you I used my cheap-ass HF meter and *didn't* get any phantom
readings. So no, not a given.

So far, nobody has been able to offer a plausible explanation.

There have been several (correct) attempts at an explanation. As I read your
experiment, you tried on a correctly wired circuit and got correct readings.
Just what you would expect.

Now, go unhook your ground wire at the panel. The hot line will induce a
voltage in that wire that can be read by a high impedance meter as difference in
voltage between ground and neutral. Is that plausible?

-- Doug

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Well, OK, but I cannot believe that a DMM is going to pick up a false
reading of *59 volts*. 59 millivolts, sure, but the OP insists that his
meter is telling him there's 59 volts between each of hot & neutral and
ground. This cannot be due to stray induced voltage.

Why not? You've got the floating wire lying right next to a 120v line for 50
feet or whatever the distance to the panel is. The voltage will be some large
percentage of 120v. The current will be tiny (which is why DMM's show the
voltage and analog meters don't). -- Doug

On Apr 3, 2:44*pm, Evan wrote:
On Apr 3, 4:17*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on my
long wiring runs. I'm listening.

--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

Because it is the CORRECT "low impedance" multimeter that can
accurately measure line voltage circuits...

The cost is irrelevant, as long as the multimeter is the correct type,
you will be able to properly measure for the actual presence or
absence of hazardous line voltages...

~ Evan

Not only is cost irrelevant, but it's also a function of the person
using the meter understanding some basic electricity and knowing how
to interpret the readings. I've exclusively used digital VOMs for
decades and never had any confusion. You could also make up an extra
set of test leads with a 50K ohm resistor across them to reduce the
input impedance.

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Sometimes the simplest tools are the best, like the good old Wiggy.

http://www.amazon.com/Klein-69115-So.../dp/B000KII9SM

TDD

Sometimes they are. I have never used the Klein tester but can see where
it may be a much beter circuit tester than some meters. Only problem is
that it is a $ 50 or so tool where the meters can be bought for $ 5 to $ 20
and be used for more things. A good old low power light bulb is very useful
to run some checks with around the house.

For quick checks where I work I have a Fluke tester that is sort of like
that. You just hook it up with the two test leads. If it is AC then
anything from 24 to about 600 volts will light up some leds. It is DC then
other lights will glow from about 12 volts up. And if there is a very low
value resistance, another light will glow. Comes in handy for quick test
when I may be working on some of the computer controlled equipment and may
need to know if I have a relay contacts closed, or 24 volts , 120 volts or
480 volts active.

One thing I did not mention is that on a Simpson 260 and probably others
like it is that if you suspect a phantom voltage you can move from one range
to another and the meter will stay in about the same place on the scale. If
the voltage is a solid voltage then the meter will go up or down a good bit
to match the voltage with the scale on the meter.

On Apr 3, 2:57*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/03/2010 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:



*wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, *wrote:

"Bob *wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on
with my house
wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. *:/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this.
Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.

Hey Bob,

Floating ground... *Okay. *That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. *sigh *At least it's nothing really
wierd. *Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. *Wondering if I can live with it... *

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. * I'd fix it..

In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to
take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or
put a two slot receptacle back in.

Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be?

Many thanks.

Dave

I do have to do the whole house. *Every plug is this way. *And, the AC
compressor that uses 240? *It's on *three different breakers*. *If any of
them are on, it comes on when called upon. *I'm thinking that the problem
must be in the service entrance, or the whole house wouldn't be
bass-ackwards with 59 VAC between every slot and the GND terminal (which is
not connected to anything.) *I am thinking the person who said this was the
same thing you woud see with an PC that had an RF filter and no ground knew
what they were talking about. *Wish I did. *I can almost wrap my mind around
everything but the three breakers for the AC. *And no, I am not making this
up. *Whoever wired this house, or rewired it, had to have been either
stupid, crazy or on drugs (pick two out of three.)

Dave (who is not happy right now.)

As others have stated, use an incandescent test light or analog meter to
test voltage to "ground." *I bet there really is none. *This is not a
"problem" per se but you really should be using GFCIs on any ungrounded
circuits with grounding type receptacles.

Three breakers for the A/C sounds hinky though. *You should have one
double breaker for the A/C, period. *If you can't figure that one out
yourself, you may wish to call an electrician to look at it - something
ain't right there.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Yep, I hardly ever use a meter. I have two light bulbs wired in
series. If they light dimly its 120, if the light bright its 240.

Jimmie

On Apr 3, 2:57*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/03/2010 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:



*wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, *wrote:

"Bob *wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on
with my house
wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. *:/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this.
Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.

Hey Bob,

Floating ground... *Okay. *That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. *sigh *At least it's nothing really
wierd. *Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. *Wondering if I can live with it... *

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. * I'd fix it..

In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to
take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or
put a two slot receptacle back in.

Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be?

Many thanks.

Dave

I do have to do the whole house. *Every plug is this way. *And, the AC
compressor that uses 240? *It's on *three different breakers*. *If any of
them are on, it comes on when called upon. *I'm thinking that the problem
must be in the service entrance, or the whole house wouldn't be
bass-ackwards with 59 VAC between every slot and the GND terminal (which is
not connected to anything.) *I am thinking the person who said this was the
same thing you woud see with an PC that had an RF filter and no ground knew
what they were talking about. *Wish I did. *I can almost wrap my mind around
everything but the three breakers for the AC. *And no, I am not making this
up. *Whoever wired this house, or rewired it, had to have been either
stupid, crazy or on drugs (pick two out of three.)

Dave (who is not happy right now.)

As others have stated, use an incandescent test light or analog meter to
test voltage to "ground." *I bet there really is none. *This is not a
"problem" per se but you really should be using GFCIs on any ungrounded
circuits with grounding type receptacles.

Three breakers for the A/C sounds hinky though. *You should have one
double breaker for the A/C, period. *If you can't figure that one out
yourself, you may wish to call an electrician to look at it - something
ain't right there.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Yep, I hardly ever use a meter. I have two light bulbs wired in
series. If they light dimly its 120, if the light bright its 240.

Jimmie

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:42:19 -0500, "Dave" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:53:44 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 2:45 PM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 4:37 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Nope, I've got a Harbor Freight el cheapo (think I paid $3 for it). So
how is it that I got completely accurate readings of my AC line voltage
with it?

Just because YOUR cheap meter worked right when you tested YOUR
circuit doesn't mean SOME other cheap meters won't misbehave or
misread on SOME circuits - but I'd also lean towards it being a
floating neutral (did I say floating ground in my first post??? - not
sure - but floating NEUTRAL is what I meant to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage

Sorry, I don't do Wikipedia (the "encyclopedia" that can be edited by
any pimple-faced 7th grader).


Hmm. Floating ground I think I understand. Floating neutral? Please tell
me, what is this?

Thanks,

Dave

The neutral is supposed to be grounded at the panel That holds the
neutral to ground potential. If the neutral is not grounded it can
be either high or low from ground (the ground can be at a higher
potential than the neutral due to ground leakage) Quite common in
rural areas - where you can sometimes get a shock from a safety
grounded device to "eath ground" - and cattle will stop drinking from
their water bowls because the grounded bowl and earth ground are at
different potentials - giving them "discomfort" when drinking.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:17:08 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on my
long wiring runs. I'm listening.
If the "long runs" were live, there is no reason the readings
would not be accurate. However, a long run with a "dead" circuit
paralleling a live one MAY read a voltage that would lead you
to believe the circuit was connected and had a problem.
If, in the OP's situation, for instance, the ground conductor
actually DID exist, but was not connected to the panel ground,
it is possible a "sensitive" or high impedence digital (or even
VTVM) meter could indicate a voltage between the ground and either
power-carrying conductor.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 02:35:22 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of
readings.


The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital meter so it
shouldn't show phantom voltage.

But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test for sure there
is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know the
limitations of test equipment.
How can it not indicate there is a good ground? - or by good do
you mean a low resistance ground?If the ground is not connected, the
3 lite will show you.
But you are right - it cannot tell you if the ground is up to the
required standard.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:27:32 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:43:40 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

We lived, somehow, for years with non polarized two prong
sockets. We had some problems, but everyone does.

We had an Emerson radio with a plasstic case that was chipped, so the
metal chassis on the bottom touched the metal table that the radio was
on. The table touched the metal edging around the formica kitchen
counter, and touching that anywhere along the 10 feet of it gave a
small tingle. Wouldn't have happened these days.

But otoh, it made me strong. The electricity stimulated the growth
of dendrites and chest hair, so now I'm the man I am.

I actually don't think it was a big problem, but otoh, for new
construction all theese changes have cost very little.
And r eversing t he plug on the Emmerson AA5 (universal) radio
would have totally eliminated the "tingle"

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 11:21:15 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:52:55 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/3/2010 5:45 AM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:17:08 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on
my long wiring runs. I'm listening.

It all depends on how the wires are terminated. If one is solidly
grounded and the other has no connection at all you have an antenna
and a high impedance meter will register voltage. The amount of
voltage will depend on how well the wire gets coupled to the fields
around the house.
Cheap really has nothing to do with it. Our $300 Fluke meters had the
same problem. Guys who were used to the Tripplets we had called them
"random number generators".

Well, OK, but I cannot believe that a DMM is going to pick up a false
reading of *59 volts*. 59 millivolts, sure, but the OP insists that his
meter is telling him there's 59 volts between each of hot& neutral and
ground. This cannot be due to stray induced voltage.

Yes, it can. Let's say there is a ground wire connected at the outlet
but disconnected at the other end of a long piece of romex. There is
a small amount of capacitance between that disconnected ground and hot
as well a the same amount of capacitance between that ground and
neutral. That would effectively create a voltage divider and show 50%
of the voltage on the ground wire.
Hi,
Proving whether it is real voltage is simpe, just hook up a light bulb.
If it lights up it is real voltage if not, it is nothing.
If it doesn't light up visibly, but the voltage is still there (ANY
voltage) it's still a problem. If the voltage is ZERO, it most likely
is not a problem - just inductive or capacitive coupling.

On Apr 3, 2:57*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/03/2010 12:26 PM, Dave wrote:



*wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, *wrote:

"Bob *wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on
with my house
wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. *:/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this.
Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.

Hey Bob,

Floating ground... *Okay. *That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. *sigh *At least it's nothing really
wierd. *Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. *Wondering if I can live with it... *

So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. * I'd fix it..

In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to
take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or
put a two slot receptacle back in.

Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be?

Many thanks.

Dave

I do have to do the whole house. *Every plug is this way. *And, the AC
compressor that uses 240? *It's on *three different breakers*. *If any of
them are on, it comes on when called upon. *I'm thinking that the problem
must be in the service entrance, or the whole house wouldn't be
bass-ackwards with 59 VAC between every slot and the GND terminal (which is
not connected to anything.) *I am thinking the person who said this was the
same thing you woud see with an PC that had an RF filter and no ground knew
what they were talking about. *Wish I did. *I can almost wrap my mind around
everything but the three breakers for the AC. *And no, I am not making this
up. *Whoever wired this house, or rewired it, had to have been either
stupid, crazy or on drugs (pick two out of three.)

Dave (who is not happy right now.)

As others have stated, use an incandescent test light or analog meter to
test voltage to "ground." *I bet there really is none. *This is not a
"problem" per se but you really should be using GFCIs on any ungrounded
circuits with grounding type receptacles.

Three breakers for the A/C sounds hinky though. *You should have one
double breaker for the A/C, period. *If you can't figure that one out
yourself, you may wish to call an electrician to look at it - something
ain't right there.

Nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Three double pole breakers can be quite normal for a heat pump
compressor, it's air handler, and it's supplemental resistive heating
elements. Two double pole breakers could be normal for a central air
conditioning compressor, an air handler, and a condensate lift pump or
other accessory. Are the three breakers single or double pole. What
are the breakers ampacities.
--
Tom Horne

On 4/3/2010 5:11 PM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:17:08 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 10:50 PM Evan spake thus:

Most cheap digital multimeters are intended to be used on small
electronic circuits and circuit boards and not for use on testing long
wiring runs like you would see in houses (feet compared to less than
an inch/es on a circuit board)...

Then explain why my cheap DMM gave *perfectly accurate readings* on
my long wiring runs. I'm listening.

If the "long runs" were live, there is no reason the readings
would not be accurate. However, a long run with a "dead" circuit
paralleling a live one MAY read a voltage that would lead you
to believe the circuit was connected and had a problem.
If, in the OP's situation, for instance, the ground conductor
actually DID exist, but was not connected to the panel ground,
it is possible a "sensitive" or high impedence digital (or even
VTVM) meter could indicate a voltage between the ground and either
power-carrying conductor.

OK, plausible; but more than *50 volts* worth? I don't think so. A few
volts, maybe.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On 4/3/2010 5:13 PM spake thus:

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 02:35:22 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of
readings.

The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital meter so
it shouldn't show phantom voltage.

But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test for sure
there is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know
the limitations of test equipment.

How can it not indicate there is a good ground? - or by good do
you mean a low resistance ground?If the ground is not connected, the
3 lite will show you.
But you are right - it cannot tell you if the ground is up to the
required standard.

The tester would expect ground to be at or about at the same potential
as neutral. That's as far as it can go, and as you point out, it can't
really determine the "goodness" of the ground, only whether it's present
and close to the neutral potential.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 02:35:22 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of
readings.

The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital meter so it
shouldn't show phantom voltage.

But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test for sure there
is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know the
limitations of test equipment.
How can it not indicate there is a good ground? - or by good do
you mean a low resistance ground?If the ground is not connected, the
3 lite will show you.
But you are right - it cannot tell you if the ground is up to the
required standard.

I never had a 3 lite tester until rather recently. The package
explicitly said it would not determine if the ground was good. Also
doesn't determine if hot or neutral are good, but you can tell when you
use the outlet.

There are other possibilities. Like if there is no ground and an idiot
wires a receptacle neutral to the ground, and then an idiot - the same
or new - replaces a receptacle upstream and accidentally swaps the hot
and neutral. The 3 lite tester will show the receptacle with a hot
ground as OK. Real unlikely, but ....

--
bud--

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
Sometimes the simplest tools are the best, like the good old Wiggy.

http://www.amazon.com/Klein-69115-So.../dp/B000KII9SM

TDD

Sometimes they are. I have never used the Klein tester but can see where
it may be a much beter circuit tester than some meters.

One advantage is a Wiggy is pretty indestructible, as from drops,
compared to a meter. I tend to use a neon test light for things like
receptacles, partly because you can tell what wire is hot and it takes
no space in my pocket.

Only problem is
that it is a $ 50 or so tool where the meters can be bought for $ 5 to $ 20
and be used for more things.

Particularly after reading about arc-flash and 'sudden reconfiguration
of the physical parts of a meter syndrome' I am more careful what I use.
Measuring at a receptacle is not so bad, but I want something good if I
am in a service panel, and something real good at high energy locations
- 480V or high amps. There is a category rating for meters - Fluke (and
others) use it.

A good old low power light bulb is very useful
to run some checks with around the house.

Yea - simple but effective.

For quick checks where I work I have a Fluke tester that is sort of like
that. You just hook it up with the two test leads. If it is AC then
anything from 24 to about 600 volts will light up some leds. It is DC then
other lights will glow from about 12 volts up. And if there is a very low
value resistance, another light will glow. Comes in handy for quick test
when I may be working on some of the computer controlled equipment and may
need to know if I have a relay contacts closed, or 24 volts , 120 volts or
480 volts active.

One thing I did not mention is that on a Simpson 260 and probably others
like it is that if you suspect a phantom voltage you can move from one range
to another and the meter will stay in about the same place on the scale. If
the voltage is a solid voltage then the meter will go up or down a good bit
to match the voltage with the scale on the meter.

Ran across that once and it was one of more bizarre measurements I have
seen.

--
bud--

An electrician has got to know his limitations.
http://www.prashantmhatre.com/actors...astwood-01.jpg

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and
see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set
of
readings.


The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital
meter so it
shouldn't show phantom voltage.

But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test
for sure there
is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know
the
limitations of test equipment.

--
bud--

Now days, kids who grow up without electricity. and just
look at them. Baseball hats on sideways, and droopy pants
with underwear showing. Some of them, I'd like to hook them
up to the 220 volts until they shape up.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:43:40 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

We lived, somehow, for years with non polarized two prong
sockets. We had some problems, but everyone does.

We had an Emerson radio with a plasstic case that was
chipped, so the
metal chassis on the bottom touched the metal table that the
radio was
on. The table touched the metal edging around the formica
kitchen
counter, and touching that anywhere along the 10 feet of it
gave a
small tingle. Wouldn't have happened these days.

But otoh, it made me strong. The electricity stimulated
the growth
of dendrites and chest hair, so now I'm the man I am.

I actually don't think it was a big problem, but otoh, for
new
construction all theese changes have cost very little.

Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave



Two things are happening here.
#1. You are using a digital meter, a no no on AC house diagnosis.
#2. Your outlet is not grounded.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I
can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They
both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the
bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone
else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on
what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this.
Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave



Two things are happening here.
#1. You are using a digital meter, a no no on AC house diagnosis.
#2. Your outlet is not grounded.

Okay, you are correct on both counts. The outlet is not grounded, and I was
using my Fluke, which I trust more than the off-brand. Would an analog
meter give me a different reading from hot-gnd, or neutral-gnd? Hadn't
thought about it, but it probably would, wouldn't it? Have to check that
out. *Thank you*

Dave