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#1
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House wiring problem
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave |
#2
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House wiring problem
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. |
#3
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 2:52*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. So how do you explain the potential difference between the other 2 wires and ground? |
#4
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 3:00*pm, Jack Hammer wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:52*pm, "Bob F" wrote: Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this.. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. So how do you explain the potential difference between the other 2 wires and ground? Phantom voltage. if you tested it with an old analog meter, it would likely show 0V. easy way to tell, just pull the recep out of the wall, beer of your choice says that it is wired with 2-wire Romex or some other similar wiring method, so that there is no ground present. At least your PO didn't do what mine did, which was to bootleg all the ground connections to the neutral to fake out the home inspector's little tester gadget. Unfortunately for me, I know in my heart that the people that we bought the house from didn't do this (they weren't that handy) and it was likely the owners before that, so I really didn't have any recourse. Discovered a lot more shady wiring when I went up in the attic to "just replace a few ceiling boxes" to allow the girlie to install ceiling fans. I posted about that here before... old houses... love 'em (built like masonry outhouses) but hate 'em too (previous owners can do horrible stuff) nate |
#5
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House wiring problem
"Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... Many thanks. Dave |
#6
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House wiring problem
Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... I did my house bit-by-bit. When I felt energetic, or I had a problem with insufficient circuits, or I was remodeling a bathroom, I rewired the appropriate circuits. The major issues with ungrounded outlets are the lack of a safety ground for grounded equipment, and no ground path for surge protectors, which could help prioritise replacements. |
#7
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House wiring problem
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:
..... Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... Many thanks. Dave I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating grounds. |
#8
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House wiring problem
wrote in message ... On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote: .... Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... Many thanks. Dave I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating grounds Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning down. Seriously. Never heard of that. Dave |
#9
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House wiring problem
Dave wrote:
wrote in message ... On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote: .... Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... Many thanks. Dave I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating grounds Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning down. Seriously. Never heard of that. Dave Hi, If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered. Ground wire is for extra safety. |
#10
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House wiring problem
We lived, somehow, for years with non polarized two prong
sockets. We had some problems, but everyone does. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Dave" wrote in message netamerica... I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating grounds Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning down. Seriously. Never heard of that. Dave |
#11
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House wiring problem
Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely). -- bud-- |
#12
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House wiring problem
"bud--" wrote in message .. . Dave wrote: "Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely). -- bud-- You know, something's jogging my memory. I remember now I once tested a different outlet and got the same results, right after we had the house remodeled. And I wonered about it but never persued it. Before the house was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace the hardware, and it tested normal. In between these two, when the house was remodeled, the contractor (or whoever) had to hardwire their floor sander into the service entrance because we didn't have any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal two "hot" wires (each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other) coming from the pole. We have central air, and the outside unit (compressor?) is wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it is the only thing on the property that is. I am wondering now if they changed something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor sander in. I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are expecting some extra cash as a result. I need to get an electrician out here to check this out. Anyone have any ideas as to what I might expect to have found? All ears... Thanks, Dave |
#13
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 5:07*pm, "Dave" wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message .. . Dave wrote: "Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... *Okay. *That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. *sigh *At least it's nothing really wierd. *Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. *Wondering if I can live with it... * If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely). -- bud-- You know, something's jogging my memory. *I remember now I once tested a different outlet and got the same results, right after we had the house remodeled. *And I wonered about it but never persued it. Before the house was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace the hardware, and it tested normal. *In between these two, when the house was remodeled, the contractor (or whoever) had to hardwire their floor sander into the service entrance because we didn't have any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal two "hot" wires (each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other) coming from the pole. *We have central air, and the outside unit (compressor?) is wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it is the only thing on the property that is. *I am wondering now if they changed something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor sander in. probably has nothing to do with your problem, there's generally no need to have 240VAC receptacles in your average house unless you have large window A/C units, an electric range, or an electric clothes dryer. I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are expecting some extra cash as a result. *I need to get an electrician out here to check this out. *Anyone have any ideas as to what I might expect to have found? All ears... I expect you will find simply a lot of old wiring without an earth ground conductor. Didn't become code until sometime in the 50's or 60's. You can either have an electrician repull everything (and possibly add some receps in strategic locations if you so desire) or else simply install a GFCI recep in the first box on each circuit, your choice. If you go for the complete rewire route I would also go ahead and get a couple cases of "spec grade" receps and switches and then your house will be all good for the next 30 years or more. Be aware that if you do the full rewire you will also have to install AFCIs on all circuits serving the bedrooms. If you have an obsolete breaker panel that is no longer supported, then you're looking at a panel replacement as well, so you may want to assess that before making a decision. If you're reasonably handy, this is something you can do yourself (I have, although I still have more work to do.) However it is not something to mess around with, make sure you know exactly how to "do it right" so you don't end up causing more problems than you solve. nate |
#14
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House wiring problem
Dave wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message .. . Dave wrote: "Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely). -- bud-- You know, something's jogging my memory. I remember now I once tested a different outlet and got the same results, right after we had the house remodeled. And I wonered about it but never persued it. Before the house was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace the hardware, and it tested normal. In between these two, when the house was remodeled, the contractor (or whoever) had to hardwire their floor sander into the service entrance because we didn't have any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal two "hot" wires (each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other) coming from the pole. We have central air, and the outside unit (compressor?) is wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it is the only thing on the property that is. I am wondering now if they changed something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor sander in. I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are expecting some extra cash as a result. I need to get an electrician out here to check this out. Anyone have any ideas as to what I might expect to have found? All ears... A house of that vintage is very likely to have no ground to the outlets. If you open up the breaker box (fuse box?) and look at the wires coming into the box for the appropriate circuits, you will probably see that each 110V cable entering into the box has 2 wires (black, white) but no associated bare ground wire. |
#15
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House wiring problem
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it. Many thanks. Dave |
#16
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House wiring problem
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400, mm
wrote: On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote: "Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it. In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or put a two slot receptacle back in. Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be? Many thanks. Dave |
#17
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House wiring problem
"mm" wrote in message news On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:24:31 -0400, mm wrote: On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote: "Bob F" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection. Hey Bob, Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it... So far, you seem to have one bad outlet, but only one. I'd fix it. In fact as the problem was described here, I think you only have to take the receptacle out and change the way the wires are connected. Or put a two slot receptacle back in. Even if you have to do the whole house, how hard could that be? Many thanks. Dave I do have to do the whole house. Every plug is this way. And, the AC compressor that uses 240? It's on *three different breakers*. If any of them are on, it comes on when called upon. I'm thinking that the problem must be in the service entrance, or the whole house wouldn't be bass-ackwards with 59 VAC between every slot and the GND terminal (which is not connected to anything.) I am thinking the person who said this was the same thing you woud see with an PC that had an RF filter and no ground knew what they were talking about. Wish I did. I can almost wrap my mind around everything but the three breakers for the AC. And no, I am not making this up. Whoever wired this house, or rewired it, had to have been either stupid, crazy or on drugs (pick two out of three.) Dave (who is not happy right now.) |
#18
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 2:45*pm, "Dave" wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. *Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. *Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? |
#19
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 11:58*am, Jack Hammer wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:45*pm, "Dave" wrote: Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. *Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. *Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 *millivolts? Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out inductive ghost voltages. |
#20
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House wiring problem
On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus:
On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote: On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out inductive ghost voltages. It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their home's wiring. One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie dust. This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM. Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral and ground, just like you're supposeta. The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe something else. (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) -- You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. - a Usenet "apology" |
#21
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 4:37*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened to a lot of regulars here. Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected. Any time wierd voltages pop up, an analog meter should be used to double check a digital meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage |
#22
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House wiring problem
On 4/2/2010 2:45 PM mike spake thus:
On Apr 2, 4:37 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote: (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened to a lot of regulars here. Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected. Nope, I've got a Harbor Freight el cheapo (think I paid $3 for it). So how is it that I got completely accurate readings of my AC line voltage with it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage Sorry, I don't do Wikipedia (the "encyclopedia" that can be edited by any pimple-faced 7th grader). -- You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. - a Usenet "apology" |
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House wiring problem
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:45:53 -0700 (PDT), mike
wrote: On Apr 2, 4:37Â*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote: (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened to a lot of regulars here. Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected. Any time wierd voltages pop up, an analog meter should be used to double check a digital meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage Or simply put a half meg-ohm or higher resistance across the leads of your digital meter. It will "kill the Phantom" |
#24
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House wiring problem
In this case, the OP got that voltage from each blade, to
ground. So, it's not a ghost voltage. One of those oughta been hot, the other oughta been neutral. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message .com... Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out inductive ghost voltages. It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their home's wiring. One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie dust. This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM. Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral and ground, just like you're supposeta. The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe something else. (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) -- You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. - a Usenet "apology" |
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House wiring problem
On 04/02/2010 07:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus: On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote: On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out inductive ghost voltages. It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their home's wiring. One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie dust. This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM. Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral and ground, just like you're supposeta. The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe something else. (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) It's not a problem, it's just the way that it works. It makes sense once it's explained. The OP, I am 99% sure, *has* no ground, so that's why he isn't reading 0V between neutral and ground. His situation is more analogous to sticking one probe in the socket and just holding the other one in the air. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#26
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House wiring problem
On 4/2/2010 4:00 PM Nate Nagel spake thus:
On 04/02/2010 07:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote: On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus: On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote: Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out inductive ghost voltages. It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their home's wiring. One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie dust. This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM. Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral and ground, just like you're supposeta. The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe something else. (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) It's not a problem, it's just the way that it works. It makes sense once it's explained. The OP, I am 99% sure, *has* no ground, Agreed; the ground pin of his outlet is wired to nothing. so that's why he isn't reading 0V between neutral and ground. His situation is more analogous to sticking one probe in the socket and just holding the other one in the air. So why didn't that happen to me when I took my measurements? I put one probe in the socket, in the hot side, and the other in the air, and I got 0.0 volts. Look--I understand the concept of phantom readings, and I know they're a problem under some circumstances. I just don't think they're as ever-present as some folks claim. I certainly have taken many accurate measurements using a DMM (and yes, comparing them to an analog VOM and gotten exactly the same results). -- You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. - a Usenet "apology" |
#27
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House wiring problem
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:37:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote: On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus: On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote: On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out inductive ghost voltages. It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their home's wiring. One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie dust. This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM. Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral and ground, just like you're supposeta. The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe something else. (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) Depends a lot on the meter. With a Fluke or Amprobe meter, not very likely to have a problem, but with a $9.99 (on sale for $4.99) Harbour Fright special and many other cheap chinese DMMs it's almost a given. |
#28
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House wiring problem
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#29
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House wiring problem
wrote in message ... On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:37:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote: (This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as terrible a problem as you hear here.) Depends a lot on the meter. With a Fluke or Amprobe meter, not very likely to have a problem, but with a $9.99 (on sale for $4.99) Harbour Fright special and many other cheap chinese DMMs it's almost a given. It is just as easy (maybe more so) for the Fluke or other high dollar meter to read the 'induced' voltage. I use the Fluke meters almost every day at work and have one at home. Most of the time if I want to get serious with the power wiring I will get my trusty Simpson 260. When dealing with some 480 volt 3 phase circuits running in conduit, you can pick up lots of odd voltages that are not really there. For example one circuit would read around 100 volts on the Fluke , light up a neon bulb tester, shock the fool out of you, and read about 30 volts on the Simpson. This is with the wires disconnected at the breaker. It is not so much the meter, but the person that is using it. YOu have to know when the meter is 'lying' to you. Many people can not do that. Especially the people that seldom use a meter. |
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House wiring problem
"Jack Hammer" wrote in message ... On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote: Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts? Yes, I am absolutely certain. My Fluke makes it unmistakably plain. Dave |
#31
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House wiring problem
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Hi, Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will glow at half brightness or so. |
#32
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House wiring problem
On Apr 2, 5:05*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. *Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. *Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Hi, Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will glow at half brightness or so. OP said house was built in '49 or '50, there wouldn't have *been* any ground unless the wiring was run in pipe or BX. nate |
#33
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House wiring problem
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT), N8N
wrote: On Apr 2, 5:05Â*pm, Tony Hwang wrote: Dave wrote: Question for the gurus. Â*I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. Â*They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Â*Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? Â*It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. Â*I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. Â*When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. Â*:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Â*Hoping someone can explain this. Â*Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Hi, Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will glow at half brightness or so. OP said house was built in '49 or '50, there wouldn't have *been* any ground unless the wiring was run in pipe or BX. nate Grounded Romex was introduced about 1947 . It hit the market in a big way in 1950 and was pretty standard by 1954 and the ground was required by code almost universally by 1962. |
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House wiring problem
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:45:20 -0500, "Dave" wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave Sounds like a "floating ground" |
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House wiring problem
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of readings. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Dave" wrote in message netamerica... Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave |
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House wiring problem
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of readings. Planning on doing this tomorrow. Thought I had one, but can't find it. Dave -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Dave" wrote in message netamerica... Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house... Dave |
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House wiring problem
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of readings. The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital meter so it shouldn't show phantom voltage. But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test for sure there is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know the limitations of test equipment. -- bud-- |
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House wiring problem
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 02:35:22 -0600, bud--
wrote: Stormin Mormon wrote: I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of readings. The 3 lite tester uses a lot higher current than a digital meter so it shouldn't show phantom voltage. But it has its own problems. In particular, it can't test for sure there is a good ground. As with a digital meter, you should know the limitations of test equipment. How can it not indicate there is a good ground? - or by good do you mean a low resistance ground?If the ground is not connected, the 3 lite will show you. But you are right - it cannot tell you if the ground is up to the required standard. |
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