Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal,
on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and
that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even
though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection.

On Apr 2, 2:45*pm, "Dave" wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. *Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. *Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

On Apr 2, 2:52*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal,
on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house
wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. *:/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and
that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even
though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection.

So how do you explain the potential difference between the other 2
wires and ground?

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on
with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave

On Apr 2, 11:58*am, Jack Hammer wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:45*pm, "Dave" wrote:

Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. *Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. *Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 *millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out
inductive ghost voltages.

Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be
going on with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had
numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once,
installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the
*white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was
wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told that
it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain
this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a
"grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect
to the ground connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's
nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house,
just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live
with it...

I did my house bit-by-bit. When I felt energetic, or I had a problem with
insufficient circuits, or I was remodeling a bathroom, I rewired the appropriate
circuits. The major issues with ungrounded outlets are the lack of a safety
ground for grounded equipment, and no ground path for surge protectors, which
could help prioritise replacements.

On Apr 2, 3:00*pm, Jack Hammer wrote:
On Apr 2, 2:52*pm, "Bob F" wrote:





Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal,
on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house
wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. *:/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this.. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet, and
that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded" outlet, even
though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground connection.

So how do you explain the potential difference between the other 2
wires and ground?

Phantom voltage. if you tested it with an old analog meter, it would
likely show 0V.

easy way to tell, just pull the recep out of the wall, beer of your
choice says that it is wired with 2-wire Romex or some other similar
wiring method, so that there is no ground present.

At least your PO didn't do what mine did, which was to bootleg all the
ground connections to the neutral to fake out the home inspector's
little tester gadget. Unfortunately for me, I know in my heart that
the people that we bought the house from didn't do this (they weren't
that handy) and it was likely the owners before that, so I really
didn't have any recourse. Discovered a lot more shady wiring when I
went up in the attic to "just replace a few ceiling boxes" to allow
the girlie to install ceiling fans. I posted about that here
before...

old houses... love 'em (built like masonry outhouses) but hate 'em
too (previous owners can do horrible stuff)

nate

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:

.....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, "Dave" wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave

Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave


Hi,
Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker
which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground
and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is
broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb
between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will
glow at half brightness or so.

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this.
Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house...
Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a
"grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to
the ground connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing
really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't
want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI
receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If
downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there
is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely).

--
bud--


You know, something's jogging my memory. I remember now I once tested a
different outlet and got the same results, right after we had the house
remodeled. And I wonered about it but never persued it. Before the house
was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace the hardware, and it tested
normal. In between these two, when the house was remodeled, the contractor
(or whoever) had to hardwire their floor sander into the service entrance
because we didn't have any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal
two "hot" wires (each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other)
coming from the pole. We have central air, and the outside unit
(compressor?) is wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it
is the only thing on the property that is. I am wondering now if they
changed something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor
sander in.

I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are expecting
some extra cash as a result. I need to get an electrician out here to check
this out. Anyone have any ideas as to what I might expect to have found?
All ears...

Thanks,

Dave

Dave wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave


Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning
down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave


Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

Hey Tony,

No idea how a GFCI works, but I understand it shuts off the power really
fast upon sensing evidence of a short to ground, or some such. Can you go a
little further for me?

Thanks,

Dave

Dave wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third
(GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what
might be going on with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had
numerous pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once,
installing the wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the
*white* wire, which should have been my first clue something was
wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was told
that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place.
:/ Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain
this. Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house...
Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a
"grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect
to the ground connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's
nothing really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house,
just didn't want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live
with it...

If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a
GFCI receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI
receptacle. If downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded
receptacle even though there is no ground. That could be what you
have (but not likely). --
bud--


You know, something's jogging my memory. I remember now I once
tested a different outlet and got the same results, right after we
had the house remodeled. And I wonered about it but never persued
it. Before the house was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace
the hardware, and it tested normal. In between these two, when the
house was remodeled, the contractor (or whoever) had to hardwire
their floor sander into the service entrance because we didn't have
any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal two "hot" wires
(each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other) coming from
the pole. We have central air, and the outside unit (compressor?) is
wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it is the only
thing on the property that is. I am wondering now if they changed
something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor
sander in.
I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are
expecting some extra cash as a result. I need to get an electrician
out here to check this out. Anyone have any ideas as to what I might
expect to have found? All ears...

A house of that vintage is very likely to have no ground to the outlets. If you
open up the breaker box (fuse box?) and look at the wires coming into the box
for the appropriate circuits, you will probably see that each 110V cable
entering into the box has 2 wires (black, white) but no associated bare ground
wire.

On Apr 2, 5:07*pm, "Dave" wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message

.. .





Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. *They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on with my house
wiring? *It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. *When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. *:/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this.
Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house...
Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a
"grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to
the ground connection.

Hey Bob,

Floating ground... *Okay. *That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic, about the wiring used in the house. *sigh *At least it's nothing
really wierd. *Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't
want to tackle that project. *Wondering if I can live with it... *

If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI
receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If
downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there
is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely).

--
bud--

You know, something's jogging my memory. *I remember now I once tested a
different outlet and got the same results, right after we had the house
remodeled. *And I wonered about it but never persued it. Before the house
was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace the hardware, and it tested
normal. *In between these two, when the house was remodeled, the contractor
(or whoever) had to hardwire their floor sander into the service entrance
because we didn't have any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal
two "hot" wires (each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other)
coming from the pole. *We have central air, and the outside unit
(compressor?) is wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it
is the only thing on the property that is. *I am wondering now if they
changed something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor
sander in.

probably has nothing to do with your problem, there's generally no
need to have 240VAC receptacles in your average house unless you have
large window A/C units, an electric range, or an electric clothes
dryer.


I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are expecting
some extra cash as a result. *I need to get an electrician out here to check
this out. *Anyone have any ideas as to what I might expect to have found?
All ears...

I expect you will find simply a lot of old wiring without an earth
ground conductor. Didn't become code until sometime in the 50's or
60's. You can either have an electrician repull everything (and
possibly add some receps in strategic locations if you so desire) or
else simply install a GFCI recep in the first box on each circuit,
your choice.

If you go for the complete rewire route I would also go ahead and get
a couple cases of "spec grade" receps and switches and then your house
will be all good for the next 30 years or more. Be aware that if you
do the full rewire you will also have to install AFCIs on all circuits
serving the bedrooms. If you have an obsolete breaker panel that is
no longer supported, then you're looking at a panel replacement as
well, so you may want to assess that before making a decision.

If you're reasonably handy, this is something you can do yourself (I
have, although I still have more work to do.) However it is not
something to mess around with, make sure you know exactly how to "do
it right" so you don't end up causing more problems than you solve.

nate

On Apr 2, 5:05*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. *I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. *They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. *Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? *It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. *I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. *When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. *:/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. *Hoping someone can explain this. *Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Hi,
Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker
which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground
and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is
broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb
between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will
glow at half brightness or so.

OP said house was built in '49 or '50, there wouldn't have *been* any
ground unless the wiring was run in pipe or BX.

nate

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:45:20 -0500, "Dave" wrote:

Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Sounds like a "floating ground"

Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going on
with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...
Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the outlet,
and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a "grounded"
outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to the ground
connection.




Hey Bob,

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a
GFCI receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If
downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there
is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely).

--
bud--

On Apr 2, 4:37*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)


It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Any time wierd voltages pop up, an analog meter should be used to
double check a digital meter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage

Fine, don't believe Wikipedia. Search Google for thousands of
incidences of people who have experiences with ghost or phantom
voltage using digital meters.

Have a good weekend, David.

On Apr 2, 5:12*pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

...



Dave wrote:
*wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, *wrote:

....

Floating ground... *Okay. *That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. *sigh *At least it's nothing really
wierd. *Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want to
tackle that project. *Wondering if I can live with it... *

Many thanks.

Dave

I once worked for a photographer. *He was in his second
studio. *The original one burned down. *Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. *Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning
down.
Seriously. *Never heard of that.

Dave

Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

Hey Tony,

No idea how a GFCI works, but I understand it shuts off the power really
fast upon sensing evidence of a short to ground, or some such. *Can you go a
little further for me?

Thanks,

Dave

A GFCI senses the difference between the current going to the load and
the current leaving the load.
If the current is not the same then it assumes the current is going
through you.
It then turns the current off.

On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote:

On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:

Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out
inductive ghost voltages.

It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated
every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their
home's wiring.

One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable
instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie
dust.

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM.
Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral
and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

In this case, the OP got that voltage from each blade, to
ground. So, it's not a ghost voltage. One of those oughta
been hot, the other oughta been neutral.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Nebenzahl"
wrote in message
.com...


Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4
millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule
out
inductive ghost voltages.

It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer
regurgitated
every time someone reports a problem involving weird
voltages in their
home's wiring.

One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally
unreliable
instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic
rays and pixie
dust.

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages
with my DMM.
Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0
between neutral
and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground,
maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to
misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere
near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of
readings.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Dave" wrote in message
netamerica...
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at
the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return.
They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the
bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house
wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces
added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring
for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have
been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about
that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put
in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can
explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

We lived, somehow, for years with non polarized two prong
sockets. We had some problems, but everyone does.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Dave" wrote in message
netamerica...

I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had
floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your
house burning down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave

On 4/2/2010 2:45 PM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 4:37 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Nope, I've got a Harbor Freight el cheapo (think I paid $3 for it). So
how is it that I got completely accurate readings of my AC line voltage
with it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage

Sorry, I don't do Wikipedia (the "encyclopedia" that can be edited by
any pimple-faced 7th grader).


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On 04/02/2010 07:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote:

On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:

Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I
can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom.
Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring?
It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my
first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that
though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in
place. :/

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out
inductive ghost voltages.

It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated
every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their
home's wiring.

One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable
instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie
dust.

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM.
Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral
and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)



It's not a problem, it's just the way that it works. It makes sense
once it's explained.

The OP, I am 99% sure, *has* no ground, so that's why he isn't reading
0V between neutral and ground. His situation is more analogous to
sticking one probe in the socket and just holding the other one in the air.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

N8N wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:07 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message

.. .





Dave wrote:
"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall
outlet) and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is
return. They both show 59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND)
terminal, on the bottom. Huh? Anyone have any idea what might be going
on with my house
wiring? It's an old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous
pieces added and modified. I was in the attic once, installing the
wiring for a bathroom outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which
should have been my first clue something was wrong. When I asked
someone else about that though, was told that it might be normal,
depending on what had been put in place. :/
Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can explain this.
Also hoping I don't have to rewire my house...
Floating ground. It is likely that there is no ground wire at the
outlet, and that the origional 2 prong outlet was replaced with a
"grounded" outlet, even though there was no ground wire to connect to
the ground connection.
Hey Bob,
Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic, about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing
really wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't
want to tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...
If done properly, it should be a 2 prong ungrounded receptacle, or a GFCI
receptacle, or downstream from (protected by) a GFCI receptacle. If
downstream from a GFCI it can be a grounded receptacle even though there
is no ground. That could be what you have (but not likely).
--
bud--
You know, something's jogging my memory. I remember now I once tested a
different outlet and got the same results, right after we had the house
remodeled. And I wonered about it but never persued it. Before the house
was remodeled I worked on an outlet to replace the hardware, and it tested
normal. In between these two, when the house was remodeled, the contractor
(or whoever) had to hardwire their floor sander into the service entrance
because we didn't have any 220 VAC outlets, even though we had the normal
two "hot" wires (each 110 or 120 but 180 out of phase with each other)
coming from the pole. We have central air, and the outside unit
(compressor?) is wired for 220 (or 240, whatever, I don't remember) but it
is the only thing on the property that is. I am wondering now if they
changed something at the service entrance when they hard-wired their floor
sander in.

probably has nothing to do with your problem, there's generally no
need to have 240VAC receptacles in your average house unless you have
large window A/C units, an electric range, or an electric clothes
dryer.

I agree it was probably not the cause.

I just filed for a bunch of insurance reimbursements, and we are expecting
some extra cash as a result. I need to get an electrician out here to check
this out. Anyone have any ideas as to what I might expect to have found?
All ears...

I expect you will find simply a lot of old wiring without an earth
ground conductor. Didn't become code until sometime in the 50's or
60's. You can either have an electrician repull everything (and
possibly add some receps in strategic locations if you so desire) or
else simply install a GFCI recep in the first box on each circuit,
your choice.

You can also add separate ground wires. Not necessarily a lot easier.

If you go for the complete rewire route I would also go ahead and get
a couple cases of "spec grade" receps and switches and then your house
will be all good for the next 30 years or more. Be aware that if you
do the full rewire you will also have to install AFCIs on all circuits
serving the bedrooms.

Time has marched on. AFCIs are now required essentially on all 15/20A
120V circuits that aren't required to have GFCIs.

If you have an obsolete breaker panel that is
no longer supported, then you're looking at a panel replacement as
well, so you may want to assess that before making a decision.

Couple other options, but still a problem.

If you're reasonably handy, this is something you can do yourself (I
have, although I still have more work to do.) However it is not
something to mess around with, make sure you know exactly how to "do
it right" so you don't end up causing more problems than you solve.

nate

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT), N8N
wrote:

On Apr 2, 5:05Â*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
Dave wrote:
Question for the gurus. Â*I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. Â*They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Â*Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? Â*It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. Â*I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. Â*When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. Â*:/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Â*Hoping someone can explain this. Â*Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

Hi,
Get an analog meter to make a real reading. If you know the breaker
which controls the outlet turn the power off and measure between ground
and each lead. I bet neither one shows continuity meaning there is
broken ground wire. Another way to look at is to connect a light bulb
between either lead and ground. If the voltage is not phantom bulb will
glow at half brightness or so.

OP said house was built in '49 or '50, there wouldn't have *been* any
ground unless the wiring was run in pipe or BX.

nate
Grounded Romex was introduced about 1947 . It hit the market in a big
way in 1950 and was pretty standard by 1954 and the ground was
required by code almost universally by 1962.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:45:53 -0700 (PDT), mike
wrote:

On Apr 2, 4:37Â*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)


It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Any time wierd voltages pop up, an analog meter should be used to
double check a digital meter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage
Or simply put a half meg-ohm or higher resistance across the leads of
your digital meter. It will "kill the Phantom"

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:37:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote:

On Apr 2, 2:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:

Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return, only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return. They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put in place. :/

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out
inductive ghost voltages.

It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated
every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their
home's wiring.

One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable
instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie
dust.

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM.
Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral
and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)
Depends a lot on the meter.
With a Fluke or Amprobe meter, not very likely to have a problem, but
with a $9.99 (on sale for $4.99) Harbour Fright special and many other
cheap chinese DMMs it's almost a given.

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:53:44 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 2:45 PM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 4:37 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Nope, I've got a Harbor Freight el cheapo (think I paid $3 for it). So
how is it that I got completely accurate readings of my AC line voltage
with it?

Just because YOUR cheap meter worked right when you tested YOUR
circuit doesn't mean SOME other cheap meters won't misbehave or
misread on SOME circuits - but I'd also lean towards it being a
floating neutral (did I say floating ground in my first post??? - not
sure - but floating NEUTRAL is what I meant to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage

Sorry, I don't do Wikipedia (the "encyclopedia" that can be edited by
any pimple-faced 7th grader).

On 4/2/2010 4:00 PM Nate Nagel spake thus:

On 04/02/2010 07:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/2/2010 11:12 AM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 11:58 am, Jack Hammer wrote:

Are you absolutely sure it is 59.4V and not 59.4 millivolts?

Agreed. AND I'd double check with an analog meter to rule out
inductive ghost voltages.

It's getting *really* annoying hearing this same answer regurgitated
every time someone reports a problem involving weird voltages in their
home's wiring.

One would think that a DMM (digital multimeter) is a totally unreliable
instrument, prone to erroneous measurements due to cosmic rays and pixie
dust.

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my DMM.
Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0 between neutral
and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It's not a problem, it's just the way that it works. It makes sense
once it's explained.

The OP, I am 99% sure, *has* no ground,

Agreed; the ground pin of his outlet is wired to nothing.

so that's why he isn't reading 0V between neutral and ground. His
situation is more analogous to sticking one probe in the socket and
just holding the other one in the air.

So why didn't that happen to me when I took my measurements? I put one
probe in the socket, in the hot side, and the other in the air, and I
got 0.0 volts.

Look--I understand the concept of phantom readings, and I know they're a
problem under some circumstances. I just don't think they're as
ever-present as some folks claim. I certainly have taken many accurate
measurements using a DMM (and yes, comparing them to an analog VOM and
gotten exactly the same results).


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On 4/2/2010 5:17 PM spake thus:

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:37:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

This is not the case. I just measured my unit's voltages with my
DMM. Got 122-something volts between hot and ground, and 0.0
between neutral and ground, just like you're supposeta.

The OP has some screwy wiring, perhaps a floating ground, maybe
something else.

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread
due to stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere
near as terrible a problem as you hear here.)

Depends a lot on the meter.
With a Fluke or Amprobe meter, not very likely to have a problem, but
with a $9.99 (on sale for $4.99) Harbour Fright special and many other
cheap chinese DMMs it's almost a given.

Didn't you read what I wrote?

I told you I used my cheap-ass HF meter and *didn't* get any phantom
readings. So no, not a given.

So far, nobody has been able to offer a plausible explanation.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:53:44 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/2/2010 2:45 PM mike spake thus:

On Apr 2, 4:37 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)

It has happened to me on two different occasions. It's also happened
to a lot of regulars here.

Maybe you have a really advanced digital meter that isn't affected.

Nope, I've got a Harbor Freight el cheapo (think I paid $3 for it). So
how is it that I got completely accurate readings of my AC line voltage
with it?

Just because YOUR cheap meter worked right when you tested YOUR
circuit doesn't mean SOME other cheap meters won't misbehave or
misread on SOME circuits - but I'd also lean towards it being a
floating neutral (did I say floating ground in my first post??? - not
sure - but floating NEUTRAL is what I meant to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_voltage

Sorry, I don't do Wikipedia (the "encyclopedia" that can be edited by
any pimple-faced 7th grader).


Hmm. Floating ground I think I understand. Floating neutral? Please tell
me, what is this?

Thanks,

Dave

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'd suggest to buy a three bulb tester at the store, and see
what that reads. Something sounds strange, with that set of
readings.


Planning on doing this tomorrow. Thought I had one, but can't find it.

Dave

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Dave" wrote in message
netamerica...
Question for the gurus. I just tested my housewiring (at
the wall outlet)
and found that I have 120V AC between the hot and return,
only I can't tell
which of the top two "slots" is hot and which is return.
They both show
59.4 VAC with referrence to the third (GND) terminal, on the
bottom. Huh?
Anyone have any idea what might be going on with my house
wiring? It's an
old house, built in '49 or '50, and has had numerous pieces
added and
modified. I was in the attic once, installing the wiring
for a bathroom
outlet, and got bit by the *white* wire, which should have
been my first
clue something was wrong. When I asked someone else about
that though, was
told that it might be normal, depending on what had been put
in place. :/

Any ideas or feedback are welcome. Hoping someone can
explain this. Also
hoping I don't have to rewire my house...

Dave

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Apr 2, 5:12 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message

...



Dave wrote:
wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500, wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up in the
attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just didn't want
to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave

I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house burning
down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave

Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

Hey Tony,

No idea how a GFCI works, but I understand it shuts off the power really
fast upon sensing evidence of a short to ground, or some such. Can you go
a
little further for me?

Thanks,

Dave

A GFCI senses the difference between the current going to the load and
the current leaving the load.
If the current is not the same then it assumes the current is going
through you.
It then turns the current off.

Aah. Thank you. Much appreciated...

Dave

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:06:37 -0500,
wrote:

....

Floating ground... Okay. That would fit with what I saw up
in the attic,
about the wiring used in the house. sigh At least it's
nothing really
wierd. Always thought I ought to rewire the house, just
didn't want to
tackle that project. Wondering if I can live with it...

Many thanks.

Dave


I once worked for a photographer. He was in his second
studio. The original one burned down. Guess who had floating
grounds

Hmm. Okay, so how could floating grounds result in your house
burning down.
Seriously. Never heard of that.

Dave


Hi,
If you know what GFCI does, then your question is answered.
Ground wire is for extra safety.

Tony, please explain the fire without the abstract talk-around.
Could you please explain it? Please explain a floating ground and
how it can spark a fire.

--
Nonny
Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member
of Congress.... But then I repeat myself.'

-Mark Twain
..

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:37:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

(This isn't to say that it isn't *possible* for a DMM to misread due to
stray capacitance or induced voltages, but it is nowhere near as
terrible a problem as you hear here.)
Depends a lot on the meter.
With a Fluke or Amprobe meter, not very likely to have a problem, but
with a $9.99 (on sale for $4.99) Harbour Fright special and many other
cheap chinese DMMs it's almost a given.

It is just as easy (maybe more so) for the Fluke or other high dollar meter
to read the 'induced' voltage. I use the Fluke meters almost every day at
work and have one at home. Most of the time if I want to get serious with
the power wiring I will get my trusty Simpson 260. When dealing with some
480 volt 3 phase circuits running in conduit, you can pick up lots of odd
voltages that are not really there. For example one circuit would read
around 100 volts on the Fluke , light up a neon bulb tester, shock the fool
out of you, and read about 30 volts on the Simpson. This is with the wires
disconnected at the breaker.

It is not so much the meter, but the person that is using it. YOu have to
know when the meter is 'lying' to you.
Many people can not do that. Especially the people that seldom use a meter.