John Grabowski wrote:
You are demonstrating your inexperience in your statement. For one
thing "your own home" becomes someone else's home at some point.
True, one can determine that the conductor is shorted or open, but
when things are not


You should be able to do what you want in YOUR home. After all, it
would be YOUR family and YOUR friends that could be killed.


*Killing your own family and friends would certainly be rewarding
enough for doing whatever you want in your own home.

And if the extension he's planning is to his son's iron lung that he
has to have because he can no longer afford the expensive care at the
nursing facility?


*All the more reason to do the work properly to prevent failure.


There's always an exception to almost every rule, law, or code.


*Yeah I've heard about that "Needed killing" defense in some states.


I think that's called "The Texas Defense". Texans are known
for their pragmatism.

TDD

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:





On Jun 27, 1:52=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
.=
com, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 10:24=3DA0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical
codes =
are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.
Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.
Soldering isn't a Code violation.
I dont know what the NEC says about soldering but its a bad idea.
Solder joints cant handle 20 amps of current unless they are made
extremely well. Ive known to many really fine electricians that
couldnt solder worth anything. Even a pretty good solder joint will
melt with 10 amps. Cycle the load on an off a few times and the joint
will soon have more resistance than the hair dryer someone had been
using on the circuit.
Complete nonsense (except for the part where you say you don't know what
the
NEC says -- *that*, I believe).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know that solder joints are forbidden on primary power circuits by
contract in many applications because there are reliabilty problems
with them. I also know that I have the skill to make such connections
reliably. In my job I dont keep up with the NEC anymore but I do know
that they were allowed years ago but thought that this would be
removed one day, this was a consideration back in the 70s because it
allowed on the skill of the electrican to make mutiple connections
without ever making a mistake. Used to, and Im paraphrasing a lot
because I dont have a copy of the NEC and I will take your word for it
that it is still allowed, the joint had to be of a quality where you
didnt really need the solder before it was soldered and the connection
must not rely on the solder for a circuit path, I take it this is
still true. I am sure you will let me know if it is not. The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it. Once it melts and cools it may form a "cold joint" with a
high resistance. HIGH is a very relative term in this case as it may
mean conderably less than one ohm but much greater than the fraction
of a milliohm resistance of a good joint. These damaged splice would
work fine for years as long as the load on them was low but the first
time someone added something to increase the load on them they would
fail. In the 80s we had to remove all the soldered splices from our
wireways for the above reason, they were considered substandard. This
is quite different from the philosophy of the 60's when I was taught
that soldered joints were the acme of electrical splices and wirenuts
were a fire waiting to happen.

I cant think of a single reason anyone would want to use a soldered
joint for primary power wiring with the exception of what the OP
wanted to do and that was to circumvent other NEC specifications.

Jimmie

Many years ago, soldering was used in house wiring. The
electricians used those big hunk of metal soldering irons
and if I remember, the things were not electric, they had
to be heated by a torch. The connections were insulated
by that old black friction tape. I come across it along
with knob and tube wiring in very old houses and buildings.

TDD

When I started in the early 70's we still had a few electric soldering irons
in the shop. I don't think they used them since the 50's. The splices were
wrapped in rubber tape, then covered with friction tape. Unless they made a
"cold" joint accidentally, those splices lasted forever, or at least until
the next guy came along to add to it

The Daring Dufas wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:





On Jun 27, 1:52=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
.=
com, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 10:24=3DA0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical
codes =
are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.
Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.
Soldering isn't a Code violation.
I dont know what the NEC says about soldering but its a bad idea.
Solder joints cant handle 20 amps of current unless they are made
extremely well. Ive known to many really fine electricians that
couldnt solder worth anything. Even a pretty good solder joint will
melt with 10 amps. Cycle the load on an off a few times and the joint
will soon have more resistance than the hair dryer someone had been
using on the circuit.
Complete nonsense (except for the part where you say you don't know
what the
NEC says -- *that*, I believe).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know that solder joints are forbidden on primary power circuits by
contract in many applications because there are reliabilty problems
with them. I also know that I have the skill to make such connections
reliably. In my job I dont keep up with the NEC anymore but I do know
that they were allowed years ago but thought that this would be
removed one day, this was a consideration back in the 70s because it
allowed on the skill of the electrican to make mutiple connections
without ever making a mistake. Used to, and Im paraphrasing a lot
because I dont have a copy of the NEC and I will take your word for it
that it is still allowed, the joint had to be of a quality where you
didnt really need the solder before it was soldered and the connection
must not rely on the solder for a circuit path, I take it this is
still true. I am sure you will let me know if it is not. The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it. Once it melts and cools it may form a "cold joint" with a
high resistance. HIGH is a very relative term in this case as it may
mean conderably less than one ohm but much greater than the fraction
of a milliohm resistance of a good joint. These damaged splice would
work fine for years as long as the load on them was low but the first
time someone added something to increase the load on them they would
fail. In the 80s we had to remove all the soldered splices from our
wireways for the above reason, they were considered substandard. This
is quite different from the philosophy of the 60's when I was taught
that soldered joints were the acme of electrical splices and wirenuts
were a fire waiting to happen.

I cant think of a single reason anyone would want to use a soldered
joint for primary power wiring with the exception of what the OP
wanted to do and that was to circumvent other NEC specifications.

Jimmie

Many years ago, soldering was used in house wiring. The
electricians used those big hunk of metal soldering irons
and if I remember, the things were not electric, they had
to be heated by a torch. The connections were insulated
by that old black friction tape. I come across it along
with knob and tube wiring in very old houses and buildings.

TDD

It wasn't that long ago. In getting my grandmother's 1961 house ready
for sale, I was changing out a crapped-out pull chain fixture in the
basement. Much to my surprise, the pigtail on the daisy-chain circuit
was neatly soldered and taped- no wirenuts. And this place was wired in
Romex, albeit the fabric-covered kind. I've worked on similar era houses
that had modern-style wire nuts (all black, of course, no color coding
in those days), so this must have been an old electrician near the end
of his career.

--
aem sends...

In article , JIMMIE wrote:

The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it.

Absolute nonsense.

Running 3 #10's (stranded) in 1-1/2" PVC conduit. Total run 75 feet.
Does code allow me to have a splice within the conduit? Seems like it
is kind of accessible since I can easily pull it from both ends in
case of problems. Two 90° bends are involved but I am using long
sweeps.
BTW, while I'm typically not a cheapskate, on my retirement allowance
I would rather not pay for a new roll of wire ($65) when I'm only shy
a few feet. Buying a single 75' piece, by the foot, will still set me
back $30.

I wouldn't recommend a spliced connection in conduit. I don't believe code
allows it, but even if you made a successful soldered and insulated splice
that section of the wire would be "stiff" compared to the rest of the
flexible wire. It may make it more difficult to pull the wire through
conduit bends, and if the splice is not "mechanically" as strong as the
wire, you could pull the splice apart when pulling the cable. You would
never know if there is damage to the splice until you have an electrical
problem. For example, say a portion of the splice breaks but leaves a
strand or two of the stranded wire. It would work fine until put under
enough load to overheat the wire. This could melt the insulation on
adjoining cables and cause a short.

You didn't mention what this conduit run was for, but I suspect $30 for a
piece of wire is minimal compared to the rest of the project. Have you
compared the cost of the wire and conduit, against just running a bare UF
rated underground cable? If you're running conduit, you're probably
spending a little extra to do the job right and allow flexibility in the
future. Why cheap out on the last little piece of wire?

If you're REALLY strapped for cash, watch your local Craigslist for people
getting rid of electrical supplies, and/or post an ad that you're looking
for some. I sold a couple hundred feet of various cables a few months ago
for $10, and see contractors selling surplus all the time. There wouldn't
be any harm using a "larger" wire than you need (i.e. Using a #6 or #8
gauge wire in place of your #10), so that widens your options a bit.

If you're going to do the job, you might as well do it right...

Good Luck,

Anthony

In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:

The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it.

Well that's completely untrue. Electric current doesn't melt solder.

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
, JIMMIE
wrote:





On Jun 27, 1:52=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
.=
com, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jun 27, 10:24=3DA0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical
codes =
are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.
Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.

Soldering isn't a Code violation.

I dont know what the NEC says about soldering but its a bad idea.
Solder joints cant handle 20 amps of current unless they are made
extremely well. Ive known to many really fine electricians that
couldnt solder worth anything. Even a pretty good solder joint will
melt with 10 amps. Cycle the load on an off a few times and the joint
will soon have more resistance than the hair dryer someone had been
using on the circuit.

Complete nonsense (except for the part where you say you don't know what
the
NEC says -- *that*, I believe).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know that solder joints are forbidden on primary power circuits by
contract in many applications because there are reliabilty problems
with them. I also know that I have the skill to make such connections
reliably. In my job I dont keep up with the NEC anymore but I do know
that they were allowed years ago but thought that this would be
removed one day, this was a consideration back in the 70s because it
allowed on the skill of the electrican to make mutiple connections
without ever making a mistake. Used to, and Im paraphrasing a lot
because I dont have a copy of the NEC and I will take your word for it
that it is still allowed, the joint had to be of a quality where you
didnt really need the solder before it was soldered and the connection
must not rely on the solder for a circuit path, I take it this is
still true. I am sure you will let me know if it is not. The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it. Once it melts and cools it may form a "cold joint" with a
high resistance. HIGH is a very relative term in this case as it may
mean conderably less than one ohm but much greater than the fraction
of a milliohm resistance of a good joint. These damaged splice would
work fine for years as long as the load on them was low but the first
time someone added something to increase the load on them they would
fail. In the 80s we had to remove all the soldered splices from our
wireways for the above reason, they were considered substandard. This
is quite different from the philosophy of the 60's when I was taught
that soldered joints were the acme of electrical splices and wirenuts
were a fire waiting to happen.

I cant think of a single reason anyone would want to use a soldered
joint for primary power wiring with the exception of what the OP
wanted to do and that was to circumvent other NEC specifications.

Jimmie

Considering that solder melts at 374 degrees F, there would be an awful lot
of fires going on, if you were correct.

wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE
wrote:

On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , JIMMIE wrote:





On Jun 27, 1:52=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 10:24=3DA0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical codes =
are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.
Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.
Soldering isn't a Code violation.
I dont know what the NEC says about soldering but its a bad idea.
Solder joints cant handle 20 amps of current unless they are made
extremely well. Ive known to many really fine electricians that
couldnt solder worth anything. Even a pretty good solder joint will
melt with 10 amps. Cycle the load on an off a few times and the joint
will soon have more resistance than the hair dryer someone had been
using on the circuit.
Complete nonsense (except for the part where you say you don't know what the
NEC says -- *that*, I believe).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
I know that solder joints are forbidden on primary power circuits by
contract in many applications because there are reliabilty problems
with them. I also know that I have the skill to make such connections
reliably. In my job I dont keep up with the NEC anymore but I do know
that they were allowed years ago but thought that this would be
removed one day, this was a consideration back in the 70s because it
allowed on the skill of the electrican to make mutiple connections
without ever making a mistake. Used to, and Im paraphrasing a lot
because I dont have a copy of the NEC and I will take your word for it
that it is still allowed, the joint had to be of a quality where you
didnt really need the solder before it was soldered and the connection
must not rely on the solder for a circuit path, I take it this is
still true. I am sure you will let me know if it is not. The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it. Once it melts and cools it may form a "cold joint" with a
high resistance. HIGH is a very relative term in this case as it may
mean conderably less than one ohm but much greater than the fraction
of a milliohm resistance of a good joint. These damaged splice would
work fine for years as long as the load on them was low but the first
time someone added something to increase the load on them they would
fail. In the 80s we had to remove all the soldered splices from our
wireways for the above reason, they were considered substandard. This
is quite different from the philosophy of the 60's when I was taught
that soldered joints were the acme of electrical splices and wirenuts
were a fire waiting to happen.

I cant think of a single reason anyone would want to use a soldered
joint for primary power wiring with the exception of what the OP
wanted to do and that was to circumvent other NEC specifications.

Jimmie


Splices that are soldered are perfectly legal in the code but they
should look something like this with a good mechanical connection
before they are soldered.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/splices.jpg

The open question is how you would insulate these splices.



It's funny that those splices were developed back in the
days of the telegraph and the things still work well now.

TDD

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:51:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:52:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 10:24=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical codes are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.

Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.

Soldering isn't a Code violation.

Soldering stranded cable CAN be.

Cite, please.
In aircraft use soldered connections are verbotten because solder
wicks back the cable and the cable becomes brittle - causing vibration
to break the wire. Same in industrial control panels. Not sure of NEC
application in residential wiring - but bad practice, regardless.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:34:06 -0400, "RBM" wrote:



When I started in the early 70's we still had a few electric soldering irons
in the shop. I don't think they used them since the 50's. The splices were
wrapped in rubber tape, then covered with friction tape. Unless they made a
"cold" joint accidentally, those splices lasted forever, or at least until
the next guy came along to add to it

That practice went out with knob and tube wiring. A "western union" or
"lineman's " splice was used. This was all well before a unified code
was in existance, IIRC.
Maximum load in those days was about 50 amps for the whole house -
with a "ring topology" meaning the load was shared over both ends of
the circuit - totally different system in North America today - with
single loads often exceding the total house load of years gone by.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:40:33 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:





On Jun 27, 1:52=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
.=
com, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 10:24=3DA0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical
codes =
are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.
Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.
Soldering isn't a Code violation.
I dont know what the NEC says about soldering but its a bad idea.
Solder joints cant handle 20 amps of current unless they are made
extremely well. Ive known to many really fine electricians that
couldnt solder worth anything. Even a pretty good solder joint will
melt with 10 amps. Cycle the load on an off a few times and the joint
will soon have more resistance than the hair dryer someone had been
using on the circuit.
Complete nonsense (except for the part where you say you don't know
what the
NEC says -- *that*, I believe).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know that solder joints are forbidden on primary power circuits by
contract in many applications because there are reliabilty problems
with them. I also know that I have the skill to make such connections
reliably. In my job I dont keep up with the NEC anymore but I do know
that they were allowed years ago but thought that this would be
removed one day, this was a consideration back in the 70s because it
allowed on the skill of the electrican to make mutiple connections
without ever making a mistake. Used to, and Im paraphrasing a lot
because I dont have a copy of the NEC and I will take your word for it
that it is still allowed, the joint had to be of a quality where you
didnt really need the solder before it was soldered and the connection
must not rely on the solder for a circuit path, I take it this is
still true. I am sure you will let me know if it is not. The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it. Once it melts and cools it may form a "cold joint" with a
high resistance. HIGH is a very relative term in this case as it may
mean conderably less than one ohm but much greater than the fraction
of a milliohm resistance of a good joint. These damaged splice would
work fine for years as long as the load on them was low but the first
time someone added something to increase the load on them they would
fail. In the 80s we had to remove all the soldered splices from our
wireways for the above reason, they were considered substandard. This
is quite different from the philosophy of the 60's when I was taught
that soldered joints were the acme of electrical splices and wirenuts
were a fire waiting to happen.

I cant think of a single reason anyone would want to use a soldered
joint for primary power wiring with the exception of what the OP
wanted to do and that was to circumvent other NEC specifications.

Jimmie

Many years ago, soldering was used in house wiring. The
electricians used those big hunk of metal soldering irons
and if I remember, the things were not electric, they had
to be heated by a torch. The connections were insulated
by that old black friction tape. I come across it along
with knob and tube wiring in very old houses and buildings.

TDD

It wasn't that long ago. In getting my grandmother's 1961 house ready
for sale, I was changing out a crapped-out pull chain fixture in the
basement. Much to my surprise, the pigtail on the daisy-chain circuit
was neatly soldered and taped- no wirenuts. And this place was wired in
Romex, albeit the fabric-covered kind. I've worked on similar era houses
that had modern-style wire nuts (all black, of course, no color coding
in those days), so this must have been an old electrician near the end
of his career.

And most of the early "wirenuts" had set-screws that clamped the wires
together, and the bakelite insulator cap screwed onto that - none of
the "twist-on" devices like today (the old "Marr "connector, vs the
"Marrette" today IIRC)

In article , wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:51:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

Soldering isn't a Code violation.

Soldering stranded cable CAN be.

Cite, please.
In aircraft use soldered connections are verbotten because solder
wicks back the cable and the cable becomes brittle - causing vibration
to break the wire. Same in industrial control panels.

Unless those applications are covered by the Code, then it's not a Code
violation.

Not sure of NEC
application in residential wiring - but bad practice, regardless.

Bad practice in some applications, perhaps. But a Code violation? Not that I'm
aware of.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:34:06 -0400, "RBM" wrote:



When I started in the early 70's we still had a few electric soldering
irons
in the shop. I don't think they used them since the 50's. The splices were
wrapped in rubber tape, then covered with friction tape. Unless they made
a
"cold" joint accidentally, those splices lasted forever, or at least until
the next guy came along to add to it

That practice went out with knob and tube wiring. A "western union" or
"lineman's " splice was used. This was all well before a unified code
was in existance, IIRC.
Maximum load in those days was about 50 amps for the whole house -
with a "ring topology" meaning the load was shared over both ends of
the circuit - totally different system in North America today - with
single loads often exceding the total house load of years gone by.

These are typical twisted wire splices, made in junction boxes, not western
union, the same type you'd put a wire nut on today

wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:40:33 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 11:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:





On Jun 27, 1:52=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
.=
com, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 27, 10:24=3DA0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Code violation, and, if underground, unsafe besides. Electrical
codes =
are
there for a reason. Don't advise people to disregard them.
Agreed especially since he mentioned soldeing the wires. The code
should be violated only by those who know how |.
Soldering isn't a Code violation.
I dont know what the NEC says about soldering but its a bad idea.
Solder joints cant handle 20 amps of current unless they are made
extremely well. Ive known to many really fine electricians that
couldnt solder worth anything. Even a pretty good solder joint will
melt with 10 amps. Cycle the load on an off a few times and the joint
will soon have more resistance than the hair dryer someone had been
using on the circuit.
Complete nonsense (except for the part where you say you don't know
what the
NEC says -- *that*, I believe).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
I know that solder joints are forbidden on primary power circuits by
contract in many applications because there are reliabilty problems
with them. I also know that I have the skill to make such connections
reliably. In my job I dont keep up with the NEC anymore but I do know
that they were allowed years ago but thought that this would be
removed one day, this was a consideration back in the 70s because it
allowed on the skill of the electrican to make mutiple connections
without ever making a mistake. Used to, and Im paraphrasing a lot
because I dont have a copy of the NEC and I will take your word for it
that it is still allowed, the joint had to be of a quality where you
didnt really need the solder before it was soldered and the connection
must not rely on the solder for a circuit path, I take it this is
still true. I am sure you will let me know if it is not. The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it. Once it melts and cools it may form a "cold joint" with a
high resistance. HIGH is a very relative term in this case as it may
mean conderably less than one ohm but much greater than the fraction
of a milliohm resistance of a good joint. These damaged splice would
work fine for years as long as the load on them was low but the first
time someone added something to increase the load on them they would
fail. In the 80s we had to remove all the soldered splices from our
wireways for the above reason, they were considered substandard. This
is quite different from the philosophy of the 60's when I was taught
that soldered joints were the acme of electrical splices and wirenuts
were a fire waiting to happen.

I cant think of a single reason anyone would want to use a soldered
joint for primary power wiring with the exception of what the OP
wanted to do and that was to circumvent other NEC specifications.

Jimmie
Many years ago, soldering was used in house wiring. The
electricians used those big hunk of metal soldering irons
and if I remember, the things were not electric, they had
to be heated by a torch. The connections were insulated
by that old black friction tape. I come across it along
with knob and tube wiring in very old houses and buildings.

TDD
It wasn't that long ago. In getting my grandmother's 1961 house ready
for sale, I was changing out a crapped-out pull chain fixture in the
basement. Much to my surprise, the pigtail on the daisy-chain circuit
was neatly soldered and taped- no wirenuts. And this place was wired in
Romex, albeit the fabric-covered kind. I've worked on similar era houses
that had modern-style wire nuts (all black, of course, no color coding
in those days), so this must have been an old electrician near the end
of his career.

And most of the early "wirenuts" had set-screws that clamped the wires
together, and the bakelite insulator cap screwed onto that - none of
the "twist-on" devices like today (the old "Marr "connector, vs the
"Marrette" today IIRC)

The set screw wire connectors are still available and
used for motor lead wires and other commercial equipment
that has to be replaced or repaired on a regular basis.
Back in the late 1980's I worked out on a Pacific atoll
and we had housing units that were manufactured in the
great country of Australia, they do funny things there.
The electrical wiring had connectors that resembles wire
nuts but had a small setscrew reached through a molded
in shroud on the side of the connector. The things worked
and were rated at a thousand volts because their house
wiring is 250 volts for a regular outlet. Oh yea, metric
Edison base light sockets, off just enough so that the
standard American bulb would not easily screw in. The
toilets swirled in the wrong direction too.

TDD

On Jun 27, 6:25*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
Good grief. I knew I was going to get some **** about this, but a well
soldered and insulated splice in a spacious conduit with wide sweeping
turns is hardly dangerous, the damn code be damned. There's about a one
in ten billion chance it will go short or open in the lifetime of the
house, and if it does either, it's STILL not dangerous or difficult to
diagnose or repair. If the retired homeowner on a fixed income wants to
save a few bucks on wire, let him splice the **** if he knows how.
Millions of people survived the advent of electricity before there were
all these laws to protect us from ourselves.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, I guess I'm that 10 billionth person. Had an outlet go dead,
started troubleshooting, traced it to a break somewhere between a
particular junction box and the outlet. This was on a circuit in
conduit. I just said what the heck, let's pull this wire out and
replace it since I don't know what's going on. Pulled the wire out
and found a splice in the middle of the conduit. Someone decided to
save 10 feet of wire and splice two 5 foot pieces together. The
splice failed. Replaced said wire and everything was fine.

Ken

wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:51:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)

Cite, please.

In aircraft use soldered connections are verbotten because solder
wicks back the cable and the cable becomes brittle - causing vibration
to break the wire. Same in industrial control panels. Not sure of NEC
application in residential wiring - but bad practice, regardless.

Last time I looked at UL508A, which is the UL standard for industrial
control panels, it didn't say anything about solder.

"Wicking" only happens with stranded wires. It is not obvious to me that
a soldered connection is less reliable than a wirenut connection when
exposed to vibration.

The NEC appears to prohibit solder for connecting ground wires in a box
(250.148-E - "solely" is not entirely clear). My recollection is you
can't solder connections for the wire to system grounding electrodes
(GEC). Other than that I am not aware of NEC prohibitions on using solder.

Solder was used into the BX days. The wires were twisted first. I
believe the splice was pointed down and a solder pot was lifted to
immerse the connection. I have seen 2 failures of soldered connections,
one in K&T, the other BX. Both were "cold joints" - the wire did not
bond to the solder. Soldering, when done by a competent installer, is
probably at least as reliable as wirenuts. It is much less convenient,
not cost-effective, and a major PITA if you have to rework the connection.

--
bud--

On Jun 28, 1:05*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*JIMMIE wrote:
The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it.

Well that's completely untrue. Electric current doesn't melt solder.

In a poorly made splice it certainly will. If there is not a good
copper to copper contact the solder will melt. The NEC does or did
make this clear.

Jimmie

In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:

On Jun 28, 1:05*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*JIMMIE wrote:
The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it.

Well that's completely untrue. Electric current doesn't melt solder.

In a poorly made splice it certainly will. If there is not a good
copper to copper contact the solder will melt. The NEC does or did
make this clear.

Jimmie

Having spent the last 25 years as the production manager of a
manufacturing facility engaged largely in electronic assembly work, I
think I know a bit about solder. Current plus resistance = heat, but
solder is made of tin and lead (still in the U.S. anyway) and could
hardly be classified as a resistor. Here, try this link:

http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/...ical_resistivi
ty/30.htm

The resistivity of solder is given as

Electrical Resistivity (rho)
app 0.000000165 ohm.m

and the resistance of a 10' length of solder of 1 sq. mm. cross
sectional area is calculated as 1/2 ohm.

If you have a cite that supports your contention that the NEC thinks
electric current will melt solder, I'd be most interested in seeing it.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:02:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:

On Jun 28, 1:05*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*JIMMIE wrote:
The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it.

Well that's completely untrue. Electric current doesn't melt solder.

In a poorly made splice it certainly will. If there is not a good
copper to copper contact the solder will melt. The NEC does or did
make this clear.

Jimmie

Having spent the last 25 years as the production manager of a
manufacturing facility engaged largely in electronic assembly work, I
think I know a bit about solder. Current plus resistance = heat, but
solder is made of tin and lead (still in the U.S. anyway) and could
hardly be classified as a resistor. Here, try this link:

http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/...ical_resistivi
ty/30.htm

The resistivity of solder is given as

Electrical Resistivity (rho)
app 0.000000165 ohm.m

and the resistance of a 10' length of solder of 1 sq. mm. cross
sectional area is calculated as 1/2 ohm.

If you have a cite that supports your contention that the NEC thinks
electric current will melt solder, I'd be most interested in seeing it.

All those numbers have nothing to do with a circuit with a overload.
It is true that the resistance of the solder can be considered 0, but
that doesn't keep the temperature of the wire from getting hot under
an overload. The overload doesn't have to be caused by a bad splice.

You should stick to 12V BTW

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:


All those numbers have nothing to do with a circuit with a overload.
It is true that the resistance of the solder can be considered 0, but
that doesn't keep the temperature of the wire from getting hot under
an overload. The overload doesn't have to be caused by a bad splice.

WTF does an overload have to do with it? You can't just go throwing
random faults into the discussion on a whim. If you've got an overload
that's heating up the wires beyond the melting point of solder, and you
haven't tripped an overcurrent protector somewhere, you've got worse
problems than melted solder.

Jimmie says that more than two amps of current through solder will melt
the solder. Are you in his corner on that or not?


You should stick to 12V BTW

No thanks, I'm comfortable with AC. It doesn't scare me like it does
some folk.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:54:11 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:


All those numbers have nothing to do with a circuit with a overload.
It is true that the resistance of the solder can be considered 0, but
that doesn't keep the temperature of the wire from getting hot under
an overload. The overload doesn't have to be caused by a bad splice.

WTF does an overload have to do with it? You can't just go throwing

An overload has everything to do with it.

random faults into the discussion on a whim. If you've got an overload

Are you suggesting that random faults don't occur?

that's heating up the wires beyond the melting point of solder, and you
haven't tripped an overcurrent protector somewhere, you've got worse
problems than melted solder.

Not really. I have seen suggestions in this very group that it is ok
to go ahead and use 14 gauge wire on that light you want to put at the
end of a run that is fed by a 20 amp breaker.

Jimmie says that more than two amps of current through solder will melt
the solder. Are you in his corner on that or not?


Yes and no.

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.

Can 2 amps of solder melt current in house wiring. No

Can 2 amps melt solder.....yes.

Take a test lead and put it on one end of the solder and put 2 amps of
current on it. Keep extending the length of the solder.

You don't agree Doug?

On Jun 30, 12:59*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

*Metspitzer wrote:
It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.

Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar.. Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. Where I work we have 3 very capable electricians one with
32 years of experience but I know for a fact none of them can make a
decent solder joint. They were never taught how. It is no longer a
required skill in any electical training program I know of. Back in
its day you flunked your apprenticeship if you couldnt make a proper
solder joint so yes those were good connections.My grandfather was a
master electrican who later ran a depot for the railroad( not sure if
that was a promotion or not) but he taught me to solder a splice. I
must have soldered a hundred of them to have him tear them apart even
though after the first four or five they were all good splices.
According to him that was the normal training method of the time.
Anyone on this NG that has to ask whether they can use a soldering
joint is going to to get a resounding NO from me. I figure those who
are truly competent to do it have no need to ask. The same applies to
anyone asking to bend the the rules of the NEC.

Jimmie

JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 30, 12:59 am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

Metspitzer wrote:
It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the
conversation, and to change things to suit your own perversions. I
do know what's going on, but you're making up all kinds of random
**** to satisfy yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told
Jimmie he was flat wrong with his statement. Used practically the
same words I did.

Out.

Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar.. Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. Where I work we have 3 very capable electricians one with
32 years of experience but I know for a fact none of them can make a
decent solder joint. They were never taught how. It is no longer a
required skill in any electical training program I know of. Back in
its day you flunked your apprenticeship if you couldnt make a proper
solder joint so yes those were good connections.My grandfather was a
master electrican who later ran a depot for the railroad( not sure if
that was a promotion or not) but he taught me to solder a splice. I
must have soldered a hundred of them to have him tear them apart even
though after the first four or five they were all good splices.
According to him that was the normal training method of the time.
Anyone on this NG that has to ask whether they can use a soldering
joint is going to to get a resounding NO from me. I figure those who
are truly competent to do it have no need to ask. The same applies to
anyone asking to bend the the rules of the NEC.


Okay, I'm convinced solder joints are bad. I have another question:

How do you wire-nut copper pipes?

In article , Metspitzer wrote:

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

To quote your own words: "It is obvious ... you really don't understand what
is going on."

That is *not* why the NEC requires soldered splices to be mechanically secure
without the solder. The NEC requires that because solder lacks the strength
necessary to make a connection mechanically secure.

In article , Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.

Can 2 amps of solder melt current in house wiring. No

Can 2 amps melt solder.....yes.

Take a test lead and put it on one end of the solder and put 2 amps of
current on it. Keep extending the length of the solder.

You don't agree Doug?

The discussion was in the context of soldered splices, not infinite lengths of
solder being used as circuit conductors. (That's a Code violation too, BTW)

Do try to keep up.

In article , JIMMIE wrote:

Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar..

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...c1b2922e1bd483

"The problem is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it."

That simply isn't true.

Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. [more nonsense snipped]

That isn't true either. If a soldered joint can be "ripped apart" as you
described, then it wasn't properly mechanically secured -- which means the
joint wasn't any good *before* it was soldered.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Metspitzer wrote:

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

To quote your own words: "It is obvious ... you really don't understand what
is going on."

That is *not* why the NEC requires soldered splices to be mechanically secure
without the solder. The NEC requires that because solder lacks the strength
necessary to make a connection mechanically secure.

And the NEC requires splices to be "mechanically and *electrically*
secure without solder" before they are soldered. It is probably not
possible to make a splice mechanically secure without it being
electrically secure. The solder does not carry the full current. There
is very little solder that carries any current. There are a huge number
of soldered splices out there that have not been a problem for over 50
years. I have never seen a failed solder joint that was not defective
from the start. If soldered joints were getting even a fraction as hot
as claimed the insulation would be destroyed. The NEC allows solder to
be used because a properly soldered splice is reliable.

--
bud--

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:50:26 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:51:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)

Cite, please.

In aircraft use soldered connections are verbotten because solder
wicks back the cable and the cable becomes brittle - causing vibration
to break the wire. Same in industrial control panels. Not sure of NEC
application in residential wiring - but bad practice, regardless.

Last time I looked at UL508A, which is the UL standard for industrial
control panels, it didn't say anything about solder.

"Wicking" only happens with stranded wires. It is not obvious to me that
a soldered connection is less reliable than a wirenut connection when
exposed to vibration.

The NEC appears to prohibit solder for connecting ground wires in a box
(250.148-E - "solely" is not entirely clear). My recollection is you
can't solder connections for the wire to system grounding electrodes
(GEC). Other than that I am not aware of NEC prohibitions on using solder.

Solder was used into the BX days. The wires were twisted first. I
believe the splice was pointed down and a solder pot was lifted to
immerse the connection. I have seen 2 failures of soldered connections,
one in K&T, the other BX. Both were "cold joints" - the wire did not
bond to the solder. Soldering, when done by a competent installer, is
probably at least as reliable as wirenuts. It is much less convenient,
not cost-effective, and a major PITA if you have to rework the connection.
I thought the OP mentioned stranded wire - but I could be wrong.

I was responding to soldering STRANDED wire.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:56:27 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:34:06 -0400, "RBM" wrote:



When I started in the early 70's we still had a few electric soldering
irons
in the shop. I don't think they used them since the 50's. The splices were
wrapped in rubber tape, then covered with friction tape. Unless they made
a
"cold" joint accidentally, those splices lasted forever, or at least until
the next guy came along to add to it

That practice went out with knob and tube wiring. A "western union" or
"lineman's " splice was used. This was all well before a unified code
was in existance, IIRC.
Maximum load in those days was about 50 amps for the whole house -
with a "ring topology" meaning the load was shared over both ends of
the circuit - totally different system in North America today - with
single loads often exceding the total house load of years gone by.

These are typical twisted wire splices, made in junction boxes, not western
union, the same type you'd put a wire nut on today


Not common practice, and not normally used in the old knob and tube
wiring.. At least not up here.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:02:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:

On Jun 28, 1:05Â*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

Â*JIMMIE wrote:
The problem
is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it.

Well that's completely untrue. Electric current doesn't melt solder.

In a poorly made splice it certainly will. If there is not a good
copper to copper contact the solder will melt. The NEC does or did
make this clear.

Jimmie

Having spent the last 25 years as the production manager of a
manufacturing facility engaged largely in electronic assembly work, I
think I know a bit about solder. Current plus resistance = heat, but
solder is made of tin and lead (still in the U.S. anyway) and could
hardly be classified as a resistor. Here, try this link:


Where do you buy leaded electronic solder in the USA?
Can't get in Canada for about 5 years now.
http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/...ical_resistivi
ty/30.htm

The resistivity of solder is given as

Electrical Resistivity (rho)
app 0.000000165 ohm.m

and the resistance of a 10' length of solder of 1 sq. mm. cross
sectional area is calculated as 1/2 ohm.

If you have a cite that supports your contention that the NEC thinks
electric current will melt solder, I'd be most interested in seeing it.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:17:26 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.

Can 2 amps of solder melt current in house wiring. No

Can 2 amps melt solder.....yes.

Take a test lead and put it on one end of the solder and put 2 amps of
current on it. Keep extending the length of the solder.

You don't agree Doug?

Don't need to go that far. How many amps does a 30 watt soldering iron
draw? How about a 100 watt soldering iron? 150 watt soldering iron is
a BIG iron - and still less than 2 amps on 1 115 volt nominal circuit.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:21:24 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:
On Jun 30, 12:59 am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

Metspitzer wrote:
It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the
conversation, and to change things to suit your own perversions. I
do know what's going on, but you're making up all kinds of random
**** to satisfy yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told
Jimmie he was flat wrong with his statement. Used practically the
same words I did.

Out.

Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar.. Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. Where I work we have 3 very capable electricians one with
32 years of experience but I know for a fact none of them can make a
decent solder joint. They were never taught how. It is no longer a
required skill in any electical training program I know of. Back in
its day you flunked your apprenticeship if you couldnt make a proper
solder joint so yes those were good connections.My grandfather was a
master electrican who later ran a depot for the railroad( not sure if
that was a promotion or not) but he taught me to solder a splice. I
must have soldered a hundred of them to have him tear them apart even
though after the first four or five they were all good splices.
According to him that was the normal training method of the time.
Anyone on this NG that has to ask whether they can use a soldering
joint is going to to get a resounding NO from me. I figure those who
are truly competent to do it have no need to ask. The same applies to
anyone asking to bend the the rules of the NEC.


Okay, I'm convinced solder joints are bad. I have another question:

How do you wire-nut copper pipes?

Never seen a compression union, eh?

In article , wrote:

I thought the OP mentioned stranded wire - but I could be wrong.

I was responding to soldering STRANDED wire.

Immaterial -- it's not a Code violation to solder either stranded or solid
wire.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:05:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , JIMMIE wrote:

Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar..

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...c1b2922e1bd483

"The problem is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it."

That simply isn't true.

Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. [more nonsense snipped]

That isn't true either. If a soldered joint can be "ripped apart" as you
described, then it wasn't properly mechanically secured -- which means the
joint wasn't any good *before* it was soldered.
Training involved soldering "western union" and "linesman" splices,
which the instructor then attempted to dissassemble with a linesman's
pliers. When dissassembled you could easily see how well the solder
had penetrated and wetted the conductor - right through the joint.

It was common practice - just like welding training involves
fracturing the weld to see how good the weld penetration was.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:55:11 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Metspitzer wrote:

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

To quote your own words: "It is obvious ... you really don't understand what
is going on."

That is *not* why the NEC requires soldered splices to be mechanically secure
without the solder. The NEC requires that because solder lacks the strength
necessary to make a connection mechanically secure.



In part. Also the joint MUST be able to stay mechanically connected IF
the solder joint fails The copper wires must be able to form both a
solid mechanical and electrical connection - the solder just seals the
joint to prevent oxidation and prevent the joint from working loose.

In article , wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:17:26 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.

It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.

Can 2 amps of solder melt current in house wiring. No

Can 2 amps melt solder.....yes.

Take a test lead and put it on one end of the solder and put 2 amps of
current on it. Keep extending the length of the solder.

You don't agree Doug?

Don't need to go that far. How many amps does a 30 watt soldering iron
draw? How about a 100 watt soldering iron? 150 watt soldering iron is
a BIG iron - and still less than 2 amps on 1 115 volt nominal circuit.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion. A soldering iron generates heat by
passing an electric current through a heating element, and it should be no
surprise to anyone that a heating element designed to get hot enough to
melt solder will in fact do so. The claim under discussion was that passing
electric current through *solder* -- specifically a soldered splice -- will
generate enough heat to melt the solder. And that claim is complete nonsense.

In article , wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:55:11 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Metspitzer
wrote:

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

To quote your own words: "It is obvious ... you really don't understand what
is going on."

That is *not* why the NEC requires soldered splices to be mechanically secure
without the solder. The NEC requires that because solder lacks the strength
necessary to make a connection mechanically secure.



In part. Also the joint MUST be able to stay mechanically connected IF
the solder joint fails

That's what I just said: "require[d] ... to be mechanically secure without the
solder" .

The copper wires must be able to form both a
solid mechanical and electrical connection

Yes, we know that. It's already been pointed out several times.

- the solder just seals the
joint to prevent oxidation and prevent the joint from working loose.

Wrong. If solder is needed to prevent the joint from working loose, then it
was in fact *not* "mechanically secure without solder" and therefore was not
properly made.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:17:26 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.
It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.
Can 2 amps of solder melt current in house wiring. No

Can 2 amps melt solder.....yes.

Take a test lead and put it on one end of the solder and put 2 amps of
current on it. Keep extending the length of the solder.

You don't agree Doug?
Don't need to go that far. How many amps does a 30 watt soldering iron
draw? How about a 100 watt soldering iron? 150 watt soldering iron is
a BIG iron - and still less than 2 amps on 1 115 volt nominal circuit.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion. A soldering iron generates heat by
passing an electric current through a heating element, and it should be no
surprise to anyone that a heating element designed to get hot enough to
melt solder will in fact do so. The claim under discussion was that passing
electric current through *solder* -- specifically a soldered splice -- will
generate enough heat to melt the solder. And that claim is complete nonsense.
Hi,
If soldering job is poor or/and the wire was undersized. It can melt and
separate. I 've seen it many times in my working days. You can make any
kind of splice between two piece of wires; soldering, mechanical
crimping/clamping, twisting together. wire nut..... If done properly all
works OK.