wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:05:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , JIMMIE wrote:
Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar..
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...c1b2922e1bd483

"The problem is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it."

That simply isn't true.

Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. [more nonsense snipped]
That isn't true either. If a soldered joint can be "ripped apart" as you
described, then it wasn't properly mechanically secured -- which means the
joint wasn't any good *before* it was soldered.
Training involved soldering "western union" and "linesman" splices,
which the instructor then attempted to dissassemble with a linesman's
pliers. When dissassembled you could easily see how well the solder
had penetrated and wetted the conductor - right through the joint.

It was common practice - just like welding training involves
fracturing the weld to see how good the weld penetration was.

hi,
As a result of poor soldermanship(?). I was mil-spec. soldering
certified by U.S. DOD in my working days. I never made a solder joint
like that. Simply it couldn't happen!

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:21:08 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

I thought the OP mentioned stranded wire - but I could be wrong.

I was responding to soldering STRANDED wire.

Immaterial -- it's not a Code violation to solder either stranded or solid
wire.

It is if you are not doing it in a junction box.

Do keep up.

In article , Tony Hwang wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:17:26 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:59:33 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Metspitzer wrote:

It is obvious when you ask the question......will 2A melt solder...
you really don't understand what is going on.
It's obvious to me that you're choosing not to follow the conversation,
and to change things to suit your own perversions. I do know what's
going on, but you're making up all kinds of random **** to satisfy
yourself that I don't. Even Doug the NEC junkie told Jimmie he was flat
wrong with his statement. Used practically the same words I did.

Out.
Can 2 amps of solder melt current in house wiring. No

Can 2 amps melt solder.....yes.

Take a test lead and put it on one end of the solder and put 2 amps of
current on it. Keep extending the length of the solder.

You don't agree Doug?
Don't need to go that far. How many amps does a 30 watt soldering iron
draw? How about a 100 watt soldering iron? 150 watt soldering iron is
a BIG iron - and still less than 2 amps on 1 115 volt nominal circuit.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion. A soldering iron generates heat by
passing an electric current through a heating element, and it should be no
surprise to anyone that a heating element designed to get hot enough to
melt solder will in fact do so. The claim under discussion was that passing
electric current through *solder* -- specifically a soldered splice -- will
generate enough heat to melt the solder. And that claim is complete nonsense.
Hi,
If soldering job is poor or/and the wire was undersized. It can melt and
separate. I 've seen it many times in my working days.

Oh, bulls**t. Solder has negligible resistance to electrical current. An
electric arc can melt solder, sure, but solder _will not_ melt simply from
"a few amps" passing through it as "JIMMIE" claimed.

In article , Metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:21:08 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

I thought the OP mentioned stranded wire - but I could be wrong.

I was responding to soldering STRANDED wire.

Immaterial -- it's not a Code violation to solder either stranded or solid
wire.

It is if you are not doing it in a junction box.

If you keep changing the subject, you might eventually hit upon one you
actually know something about.

In article ,
wrote:

Where do you buy leaded electronic solder in the USA?

Anywhere and everywhere. RoHS hasn't been adopted in the USA.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:43:36 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:05:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , JIMMIE wrote:
Please show me where I said 2 amps, I'll send you a dollar..
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...c1b2922e1bd483

"The problem is that solder will melt with just a few amps of current passing
through it."

That simply isn't true.

Yes the
NEC permits soldering but unless you are extremely competent at it its
a bad idea. [more nonsense snipped]
That isn't true either. If a soldered joint can be "ripped apart" as you
described, then it wasn't properly mechanically secured -- which means the
joint wasn't any good *before* it was soldered.
Training involved soldering "western union" and "linesman" splices,
which the instructor then attempted to dissassemble with a linesman's
pliers. When dissassembled you could easily see how well the solder
had penetrated and wetted the conductor - right through the joint.

It was common practice - just like welding training involves
fracturing the weld to see how good the weld penetration was.

hi,
As a result of poor soldermanship(?). I was mil-spec. soldering
certified by U.S. DOD in my working days. I never made a solder joint
like that. Simply it couldn't happen!
Even a perfectly soldered western union splice CAN be dissassembled.
Not easily - for sure.. Solid wire, of course.

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:36:53 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:55:11 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Metspitzer
wrote:

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

To quote your own words: "It is obvious ... you really don't understand what
is going on."

That is *not* why the NEC requires soldered splices to be mechanically secure
without the solder. The NEC requires that because solder lacks the strength
necessary to make a connection mechanically secure.



In part. Also the joint MUST be able to stay mechanically connected IF
the solder joint fails

That's what I just said: "require[d] ... to be mechanically secure without the
solder" .

The copper wires must be able to form both a
solid mechanical and electrical connection

Yes, we know that. It's already been pointed out several times.

- the solder just seals the
joint to prevent oxidation and prevent the joint from working loose.

Wrong. If solder is needed to prevent the joint from working loose, then it
was in fact *not* "mechanically secure without solder" and therefore was not
properly made.
Semantics. You can untwist a secure mechanical connection by hand -
but not when soldered.

In article , wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:36:53 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:55:11 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Metspitzer
wrote:

2 amps of current might melt solder on those printed circuit cards you
use, but it would be negligible on 12-14 gauge wires that are used in
houses. It would take something like using a toaster oven and a Fry
daddy on the same circuit. That could bring the wire close to a
temperature that would melt solder. A short circuit (random fault)
would for sure. That is why the NEC requires splices to be
mechanically secure before using solder.

To quote your own words: "It is obvious ... you really don't understand what

is going on."

That is *not* why the NEC requires soldered splices to be mechanically
secure
without the solder. The NEC requires that because solder lacks the strength
necessary to make a connection mechanically secure.



In part. Also the joint MUST be able to stay mechanically connected IF
the solder joint fails

That's what I just said: "require[d] ... to be mechanically secure without the

solder" .

The copper wires must be able to form both a
solid mechanical and electrical connection

Yes, we know that. It's already been pointed out several times.

- the solder just seals the
joint to prevent oxidation and prevent the joint from working loose.

Wrong. If solder is needed to prevent the joint from working loose, then it
was in fact *not* "mechanically secure without solder" and therefore was not
properly made.

Semantics. You can untwist a secure mechanical connection by hand -
but not when soldered.

So what? You said the solder is there to "prevent the joint from working
loose." That's false. And also completely irrelevant to whether the joint can
be untwisted by hand.

I would crimp and solder the connection. Follow the code and replace the wires, it's not worth the worry.

The joint has to have a mechanical connection before you solder. I would think one would use a butt splice and solder.