Stormin Mormon wrote:
The one time I caught a woodchuck in a Havahart. I was going
to take him out that night. But when I went back to the cage
at o'dark thirty, someone had opened the cage and let the
critter out.

Incidentally, a 15 minute road flare was lit and stuffed
into the hole, which was then back filled with rocks and
earth. Havn't seen any more wood chuck holes.

I have the same restrictions on shooting the little furry
devil.


I actually take them to parkland about 4 miles away. One neighbor
catches in his Havahart then drowns them in a garbage can.
First time I had problem I dumped a pint of chloroform down the hole and
sealed it. Then a couple of years later, groundhogs liked a spot under
stairs on a bank and I caught and released a couple but for future
deterring, I had to cement hole under stairs.

Main problem with the Havahart is you don't know what you are going to
catch. Along with groundhogs, I've caught skunks, possums, raccoons,
squirrels and birds. One week I had to make 4 trips to the park dumping
the other critters before I caught the groundhog.

I've posted this befo
http://home.comcast.net/~frank.logullo/thief.pdf

Wish I had photographed the skunks but at the time my urgency was to
release momma skunk while 4 kids were hovering around the trap.

on 4/20/2009 7:17 PM (ET) Stormin Mormon wrote the following:
Was that Bill Murray's character name?

No. His character was named Carl Spackler

I hear a Darwin
award.

One of my favs, was the guys who tried to siphon gas out of
a motor home, but dipped the sewage tank by mistake.




--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns" is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )


Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's so much
fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at least until
they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The preponderance of
stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.



So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is
someone who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as
where he lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ

"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
...


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns" is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )


Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's so
much fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at least
until they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The
preponderance of stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.

So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is someone
who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as where he
lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ


I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a .22 fly, in
your opinion?

On Apr 21, 8:32*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

*Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes
the crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

It's the same crime. The determination is in the "eye of the beholder." If
the victim thinks you have a gun, as far as the law is concerned, you have a
gun.

A finger-in-the-jacket is an "armed robbery" if the victim believes you have
a gun. If you pass a note to the bank teller saying "Give me the money or
I'll shoot you," you have committed an "armed robbery."

In the specific case of New Jersey, however, it doesn't make any difference
at all:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun,
assault firearm, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or
instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any
solid projectile, ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor
or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of
an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. *It shall
also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an
air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which
the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed
or other gas, or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed
air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

I think rubber-band guns are okay.

So let me get this right, it's illegal in NJ to possess a drinking
straw because it COULD be used to shoot a spitball.

"Child arrested for illegal possession of a spitball shooter, film at
11".

Tony Soprano is spinning in his grave.

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote:
Kill the bugger. Even if it was morally responsible to pass your
troubles on to others, it is probably illegal to relocate wildlife
without a permit.

That's the way it is here. Had a buddy with some nutria under his house.
Called Fish and Game, they said it would be illegal to relocate them
*anywhere*, but he was free to kill them however he saw fit (within the
bounds of the law, of course).

Jon

Don Klipstein wrote:

I'd first try the mothballs.

Mothballs are toxic and not biodegradable. I would make a plan for
retrieving them.

Good point, putting them in a cloth bag on the end of a string so they can
be retrieved from under a building might be the way to go. Some folks swear
by pure oil of peppermint for getting rid of critters, but I've heard mixed
reports on that. One guy who put cotton balls soaked in the stuff down
gopher holes said the gophers just pushed the cotton balls out of their
burrows so he woke up in the morning to see all these cotton balls on the
lawn....

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns" is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )

Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's so
much fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at least
until they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The
preponderance of stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.
So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is someone
who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as where he
lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ


I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a .22 fly, in
your opinion?


A 22 Long rifle bullet fired upwards at the appropriate angle can fly a
maximum distance of about one mile on level ground. This is fact and
printed on most 22LR boxes. When it came down (after a mile flight) it
is doubtful if it would have enough energy to injure anyone. If the
rifle were pointed horizontally as in shooting at something on the
ground, the range would be more like 600 to 900 ft. If someone shot a 22
CB cap (which I discussed) horizontally, the range would be more like
100 to 150 ft. The practical range where someone could be injured by the
CB cap is about 50 ft.

EJ in NJ

In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:




Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's so much
fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at least until
they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The preponderance of
stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.

If you don't understand collateral risk assessment, than perhaps you
ought not own guns. I don't consider wild animals to be varmints; I
happily share the land with them. But, if I had a very good reason to
shoot something, I wouldn't do it while the target was sitting on the
top of a 4 foot tall fence while the neighbor was out in his adjacent
yard.

When I was a kid, the 75 year old neighbor lady with the backyard
vegetable garden waged a war on crows with her .22 rifle. This was a
standard residential neighborhood. The cops never really pressed the
issue until her judgment and marksmanship declined to the point of
taking out a streetlight.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:


I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of
this discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit
their neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a
.22 fly, in your opinion?

No "opinion" here.

The FACT is that a .22 bullet fired by me goes as far as it needs to go to
hit the varmit and no farther (well, maybe a few inches if it's a skinny
varmit).

As to the possibility of hitting a neighbor being a risk, it may, instead,
be a virtue.

my shed 16 by 20 is on a concrete slab........

far better in so many ways.

And worse in others--- � portability, dampness, worse to stand on for
any length of time, tendency to crack in my neck-of-the-woods �and
initial cost for starters.

Jim


wood floors attract occupants moving in, properly laid concrete
sholdnt crack think rebar and relef cuts, lasts literally forever wood
floors even pressure treated sag and rot out.and attract moisture.

concretes initial cost may be a bit more, but after that its free..

a soft rubber mat adds comfort for standing.

frankly the less maintence the better, concrete is maintence free.

and how many have actually moved a larg shed???

"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
...


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson
wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an
air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes
the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns"
is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal
laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )

Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious
of neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who
thinks of plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's
why it's so much fun to read threads like this one. Morons are
entertaining, at least until they shoot a neighbor, which eventually
they will. The preponderance of stupid hunting accidents is proof of
this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.
So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is
someone who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as
where he lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ


I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a .22 fly, in
your opinion?
A 22 Long rifle bullet fired upwards at the appropriate angle can fly a
maximum distance of about one mile on level ground. This is fact and
printed on most 22LR boxes. When it came down (after a mile flight) it is
doubtful if it would have enough energy to injure anyone. If the rifle
were pointed horizontally as in shooting at something on the ground, the
range would be more like 600 to 900 ft. If someone shot a 22 CB cap (which
I discussed) horizontally, the range would be more like 100 to 150 ft. The
practical range where someone could be injured by the CB cap is about 50
ft.

EJ in NJ


Just wanted to be sure we read the same 22LR box and we were functioning in
the same reality.

In , Ernie Willson wrote
in part:

Don Klipstein wrote:
In , Ernie Willson wrote:
(I edit for space)
In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.

Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns" is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )

In the state of New jersey, air guns, BB guns and CO2 guns are legally
classified as firearms and all the rules for firearms pertain to them.

If you use a BB gun (or pellet gun etc.) in the commission of a crime
and you are subject to the same penalty as if you had used a "real" gun.

Also FYI, slingshots are illegal here.

I didn't write the laws, I just live with them.

I have seen a person dragged into court for illegally carrying a
firearm, when he had an unloaded Daisy Red Rider BB gun in his trunk.

I tried a few seconds with Google, and that appears to me to be a "long
gun" resembling a rifle. New Jersey has a law against carrying even so
much as an unloaded .30-06 in the trunk of a car?

Although I am aware of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...ates_(by_state)

saying that New Jersey gun owners are required to get a purchase permit
(good for life) to purchase handguns, rifles or shotguns.

I strongly suggest that people should never drive through this state
with a firearm (as defined by NJ) in their car, or on their your person.

- Don Klipstein )

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:01:13 -0700 (PDT), Pat
wrote:

On Apr 21, 8:32*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

*Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes
the crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

It's the same crime. The determination is in the "eye of the beholder." If
the victim thinks you have a gun, as far as the law is concerned, you have a
gun.

A finger-in-the-jacket is an "armed robbery" if the victim believes you have
a gun. If you pass a note to the bank teller saying "Give me the money or
I'll shoot you," you have committed an "armed robbery."

In the specific case of New Jersey, however, it doesn't make any difference
at all:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun,
assault firearm, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or
instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any
solid projectile, ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor
or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of
an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. *It shall
also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an
air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which
the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed
or other gas, or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed
air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

I think rubber-band guns are okay.

So let me get this right, it's illegal in NJ to possess a drinking
straw because it COULD be used to shoot a spitball.

"Child arrested for illegal possession of a spitball shooter, film at
11".

Tony Soprano is spinning in his grave.

A straw is a Pea-Shooter. Shoots small beans or peas. Spit balls are a
single page of writing tablet that sticks to the blackboard.

Paper clips and rubber bands, they call your mother!!

In article , HeyBub wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes
the crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?


It's the same crime. The determination is in the "eye of the beholder." If
the victim thinks you have a gun, as far as the law is concerned, you have a
gun.

A finger-in-the-jacket is an "armed robbery" if the victim believes you have
a gun. If you pass a note to the bank teller saying "Give me the money or
I'll shoot you," you have committed an "armed robbery."

In the specific case of New Jersey, however, it doesn't make any difference
at all:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun,
assault firearm, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or
instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any
solid projectile, ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor
or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of
an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall
also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an
air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which
the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed
or other gas, or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed
air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

I think rubber-band guns are okay.

So it sounds to me that in NJ, committing a crime that violates state
laws with a BB gun amounts to committing a gun crime. That sounds fair to
me.

Meanwhile, it appears to me that a BB gun that resembles a rifle is no
worse regulated or restricted in NJ than a real rifle is.

And it appears to me that the lifetime firearm purchase permit that NJ
requires probably applies as stated by Wiki to pistols, rifles and
shotguns - as in "real guns" as opposed to everything that if used to
commit a crime in NJ would make the crime a "gun crime".

- Don Klipstein )

In , Pat
wrote:

On Apr 21, 8:32*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

*Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes
the crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

It's the same crime. The determination is in the "eye of the beholder." If
the victim thinks you have a gun, as far as the law is concerned, you have a
gun.

A finger-in-the-jacket is an "armed robbery" if the victim believes you have
a gun. If you pass a note to the bank teller saying "Give me the money or
I'll shoot you," you have committed an "armed robbery."

In the specific case of New Jersey, however, it doesn't make any difference
at all:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun,
assault firearm, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or
instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any
solid projectile, ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor
or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of
an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. *It shall
also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an
air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which
the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed
or other gas, or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed
air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

I think rubber-band guns are okay.

So let me get this right, it's illegal in NJ to possess a drinking
straw because it COULD be used to shoot a spitball.

"Child arrested for illegal possession of a spitball shooter, film at
11".

Tony Soprano is spinning in his grave.

I think that the courts in NJ are reasonable enough to throw such a case
out.

Should the charge be a felony one, I think even a juvenile can get a
jury trial especially if "charged as an adult". And I suspect that the
jurors will find in favor of the defendant and against the prosecution for
wasting their time by calling them onto jury duty for such a matter.

- Don Klipstein )

Don Klipstein wrote:

Meanwhile, it appears to me that a BB gun that resembles a rifle is
no worse regulated or restricted in NJ than a real rifle is.

And it appears to me that the lifetime firearm purchase permit that
NJ requires probably applies as stated by Wiki to pistols, rifles and
shotguns - as in "real guns" as opposed to everything that if used to
commit a crime in NJ would make the crime a "gun crime".


Different strokes...

Here in Texas you can walk down the main street in Houston carrying a rifle
or shotgun, or drive around with one in the rear window of your pickup. You
can buy and own as many guns as you want, no registration of a person or
weapon is allowed.

There are more cats in the United States than dogs, but fewer cat owners.
That's because you can't have too many cats. It's the same with guns; there
are (estimated) 240 million guns in the U.S., but most gun owners have more
than one. If my family is representative, there are about 2,488 actual gun
owners in the country.

In article , JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
m...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns" is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )

Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's so
much fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at least
until they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The
preponderance of stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.

So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is someone
who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as where he
lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a .22 fly, in
your opinion?

.22 comes in BB, CB, Short, Long, Long Rifle, Winchester Magnum, WRF,
and Remington Special, and I do not know that this list of versions of .22
is exhaustive. The LR / "Long Rifle" is said by the Wiki article on that
round to be the most-used ammunition in USA, with high usage for target
practice. Despite that round having "rifle" being part of its name, there
are handguns that use it.

Kinetic energies of ".22" range from 20 to 324 foot-pounds, and muzzle
velocities range from 560 to 2200 feet per second
(and some slower CBs fly as slow as 350 feet per second, amounting to
7.93 foot-pounds of kinetic energy at noted 29 grain bullet weight)
according to Wiki articles on these greatly-various ".22" rounds.

.22 short is noted to have muzzle velocity anywhere from 560 to
slightly over 1,710 feet per second, usually close to 1,100.

If I am not erring with advanced-highschool or freshman-college physics,
1100 feet per second fired 45 degrees above horizontal means landing about
3.58 miles away if there is no air resistance. I would rather think that
ricochets can go maybe half a mile, and that errant shots can go half a
mile before running into something that stops or ricochets them. Maybe
somewhat less for .22 short, BB and CB, along with more for faster and
heavier rounds.
I would not fire a .30-06 if a person or a house is downrange from me by
up to a mile and 1/4-1/2 degree off-course to target. (I would rather
think at least half a degree, probably "chicken out" at a degree of arc or
less - unless reincarnated into a warfare scenario.)
I would also not fire most .22 rounds at varmints unless I had certainty
that the bullet would hit the target and stop there.
As a result, I would rather attack varmints with "BB guns" at range
close enough to reliably hit target, or by electrical means.

Thankfully, I live in an apartment complex, where I have little need to
attack small 4-legged varmints with anything much beyond mousetraps.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Ernie Willson
wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a "real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns" is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )

Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's so
much fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at least
until they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The
preponderance of stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.
So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is someone
who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as where he
lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a .22 fly, in
your opinion?

A 22 Long rifle bullet fired upwards at the appropriate angle can fly a
maximum distance of about one mile on level ground. This is fact and
printed on most 22LR boxes. When it came down (after a mile flight) it
is doubtful if it would have enough energy to injure anyone. If the
rifle were pointed horizontally as in shooting at something on the
ground, the range would be more like 600 to 900 ft. If someone shot a 22
CB cap (which I discussed) horizontally, the range would be more like
100 to 150 ft. The practical range where someone could be injured by the
CB cap is about 50 ft.

The slower CB is less-affected by air resistance, which varies with
square of airspeed. I would expect the CB to have most of its capability
to inflict injury after flying 150 feet.

Please keep in mind what can happen if the projectile hits an eye, a
jugular vein or a carotid artery... The resulting lawsuit can fairly
easily cause a bankruptcy, and the injury that such lawsuit would be based
on would be something I would choose bankruptcy over.

- Don Klipstein )

In , HeyBub wrote in part:

There are more cats in the United States than dogs, but fewer cat owners.
That's because you can't have too many cats. It's the same with guns; there
are (estimated) 240 million guns in the U.S., but most gun owners have more
than one. If my family is representative, there are about 2,488 actual gun
owners in the country.

Does this mean your family owns a goodly 96,000 guns?

I thought most American households with guns had a gun count that can be
counted on one hand, and close to half of American households had at least
one gun.

I think that burglars and home invaders would feel safer if only 2,488
homes had gun owners as opposed to close to half.

- Don Klipstein )

On Apr 20, 10:23*am, wrote:
I've been tolerating the ******* living under my shed since I moved in
3 years ago, because everything I've tried to do to get rid of him has
only resulted in more damage to the shed.

When I moved in he had his entrance under the front corner of the
shed. When I filled that in with rocks and broken glass, he went in
under the wall of the lean-to, and dug another hole into his burrow
from the back of the shed.

I've tried gassing him with propane. I've tried all the folk
repellants. Apparently he likes being clean and eating spicy food,
because neither irish spring soap nor cayenne pepper phased him.

The bugger has gone all Hannibal Lechter on me. There was a half-
rotted possum carcass in the entrance to his burrow. I thought that
would drive 'em away, so I left it. Now it's gone.

He's always left my stuff alone, but now he's developed a taste for
gasoline. He removed the gas cap from my push mower, and chewed the
neck off the gas tank.

I'd love to sit on my back porch and pick him off with a rifle, but
discharge of firearms is a big no-no.

Live trap him and release in an approved area.

He has just as much right to life as you do.

And as you pointed out, he was there first.

Ignore the idiots who are telling you to poison or shoot the
animal...you will most likely cause him to die under your
building...then you will have a serious problem of living with the
stink for 2-4 weeks.

As for the clowns discussing firearms and ammo, I am always amazed at
how ignorant the majority of gun owners are.

When you discharge a firearm...any firearm..., you are completely
responsible for what damage the projectile causes and where it goes.

There are countless "experts" serving decades of prison time for
projectiles that went where they were not meant to go and causing
damage/death that was unintended.

I am a gun owner and use guns daily...responsibly and legally...and I
take this subject very seriously.

With that said, if my neighbor discharged a gun illegally I would be
strongly tempted to beat him senseless before I called 9/11 to impress
on him the stupidity of his act that placed my family in danger.

Good luck with a successful and peaceful solution to the groundhog
problem.

TMT

On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous
incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't
hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can
a .22 fly, in
your opinion?

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In article , Ernie Willson
wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Ernie Willson" wrote in message
...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In , Ernie Willson
wrote:

A 22 cal "CB cap" would do the job quietly and efficiently. These
are
more powerful than most air rifles and less powerful/noisy than a 22
short. They are pretty nearly silent. You are still discharging a
firearm though. In fact here in the police state of NJ shooting an
air
gun is legally classified as discharging a firearm...go figure.
Use of an air gun is legally classified as use of a firearm?

Does that mean it is legal to use an air gun where it is legal to
use
a "real gun" in NJ? And illegal to use an air gun in place of a
"real
gun" to be used illegally?

Does this only mean that use of an air gun to commit a crime makes
the
crime a "gun crime", or is it worse?

Meanwhile, it appears to me that in at least most of the 50 States
shooting of varmints and for that matter "plinking" with "real guns"
is
not prohibited nor badly regulated by state law. And it appears to
me
that prohibitions on discharging firearms in general are municipal
laws
and not state ones.

- Don Klipstein )

Here, it's a local law, and for good reason. Even in the most spacious
of
neighborhoods, houses are still 100-200 feet apart. Anyone who thinks
of
plinking varmints in such an environment is a moron. That's why it's
so
much fun to read threads like this one. Morons are entertaining, at
least
until they shoot a neighbor, which eventually they will. The
preponderance of stupid hunting accidents is proof of this fact.

Disclaimers:
- I own guns.
- I don't hunt, but I know some perfectly safe & smart hunters.
So far as I can see, the only "moron" to check into this thread is
someone
who ASSumes that everyone else lives in a place as crowded as where he
lives.

For all you know MKIRSCH1 could live in Death Valley.

EJ in NJ

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can a .22 fly,
in
your opinion?

A 22 Long rifle bullet fired upwards at the appropriate angle can fly a
maximum distance of about one mile on level ground. This is fact and
printed on most 22LR boxes. When it came down (after a mile flight) it
is doubtful if it would have enough energy to injure anyone. If the
rifle were pointed horizontally as in shooting at something on the
ground, the range would be more like 600 to 900 ft. If someone shot a 22
CB cap (which I discussed) horizontally, the range would be more like
100 to 150 ft. The practical range where someone could be injured by the
CB cap is about 50 ft.

The slower CB is less-affected by air resistance, which varies with
square of airspeed. I would expect the CB to have most of its capability
to inflict injury after flying 150 feet.

Please keep in mind what can happen if the projectile hits an eye, a
jugular vein or a carotid artery... The resulting lawsuit can fairly
easily cause a bankruptcy, and the injury that such lawsuit would be based
on would be something I would choose bankruptcy over.

- Don Klipstein )


If *any* round entered my property line, a lawsuit would be the least of a
shooter's problems. Punishing stupidity is extremely important in terms of
keeping the gene pool scrubbed.

OK. Now, it would help if some of the great hunters in this discussion would
reveal the distance to their neighbors' houses.



"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous
incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't
hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can
a .22 fly, in
your opinion?

For me, about thirty feet.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
OK. Now, it would help if some of the great hunters in this
discussion would
reveal the distance to their neighbors' houses.



"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

--
Christopher A. Young

Save me having to review 419,000 messages. Are you one of the great hunters
who thinks he can use a .22 in your environment?


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
For me, about thirty feet.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
OK. Now, it would help if some of the great hunters in this
discussion would
reveal the distance to their neighbors' houses.



"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

--
Christopher A. Young

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Live trap him and release in an approved area.

He has just as much right to life as you do.



Right up until the point he became destructive. Besides, we are further
up the food chain than he is.




Ignore the idiots who are telling you to poison or shoot the
animal...you will most likely cause him to die under your
building...then you will have a serious problem of living with the
stink for 2-4 weeks.



So what? We're talking about a shed, remember?




I am a gun owner and use guns daily...responsibly and legally...and I
take this subject very seriously.




Yes, I'm a gun owner too. How is it that you use yours "daily"? I
don't even handle one of mine on a daily basis, much less "use" it, and
I have a concealed carry permit.




With that said, if my neighbor discharged a gun illegally I would be
strongly tempted to beat him senseless before I called 9/11 to impress
on him the stupidity of his act that placed my family in danger.

Good luck with a successful and peaceful solution to the groundhog
problem.



You'd beat your neighbor senseless but you advocate a green solution to
the woodchuck problem? I'd be concerned if I heard gunshots next door
but the last thing I would do is go confront the guy. If he caused
damage, call the cops. If he hurt somebody, call the cops. I'd only
confront him if there were still incoming ordnance to stop the threat.

Me? If I had this guy's problem I'd probably try to dispatch the
critter with an air rifle. Less chance for collateral damage.



Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerd at carolina.rr.com

Don Klipstein wrote:

I thought most American households with guns had a gun count that can be
counted on one hand, and close to half of American households had at least
one gun.

I think that burglars and home invaders would feel safer if only 2,488
homes had gun owners as opposed to close to half.


I've got 9 rifles including all the socially incorrect ones: AR-15,
AKS, SKS, Mini-14 "assault rifles", a "sniper rifle" (Remington 700
BDL), a couple of full sized battle rifles (Mauser and Lee-Enfield),
plus a smattering of other types. Of course, I neither assault nor do I
snipe.

I own 2 twelve gauge shotguns.

I own 5 pistols of varying calibers.

I have never shot anyone nor even pointed a gun at another person. I
have had my life saved twice by my weapons over the years. Just the
fact that I had one deescalated the situation to nonviolence.

Is my situation typical? I have no idea. I don't know what my
neighbors might have. They don't have a clue what I have.



Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerd at carolina.rr.com

on 4/22/2009 8:14 AM (ET) JoeSpareBedroom wrote the following:
OK. Now, it would help if some of the great hunters in this discussion would
reveal the distance to their neighbors' houses.



....or apartments.


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous
incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't
hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can
a .22 fly, in
your opinion?









--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:31:17 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up .22 rat shot. Close up it hits as
hard as a CB cap but 30-40' away it will barely penetrate halfway
through a corrugated box.

The rat shot won't do much damage to the Woodchuck at more than a few feet.
Too hard to get that close to one.
Even the larger shot from a 38 caliber shot shell will not be effective at
more than a few feet.

On Apr 22, 4:40*pm, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:31:17 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up .22 rat shot. Close up it hits as
hard as a CB cap but 30-40' away it will barely penetrate halfway
through a corrugated box.

The rat shot won't do much damage to the Woodchuck at more than a few feet.

Mortimer Schnerd wrote:


I've got 9 rifles including all the socially incorrect ones: AR-15,
AKS, SKS, Mini-14 "assault rifles", a "sniper rifle" (Remington 700
BDL), a couple of full sized battle rifles (Mauser and Lee-Enfield),
plus a smattering of other types. Of course, I neither assault nor
do I snipe.

I own 2 twelve gauge shotguns.

I own 5 pistols of varying calibers.

I have never shot anyone nor even pointed a gun at another person. I
have had my life saved twice by my weapons over the years. Just the
fact that I had one deescalated the situation to nonviolence.

Is my situation typical? I have no idea. I don't know what my
neighbors might have. They don't have a clue what I have.



I have a theory about guns I call "The Porpoise Problem."

No one doubts that the porpoise is a swell friend of mankind. This is based,
partly, on the fact that since man has been going down to the sea in ships,
a passing porpoise has towed a hapless sailor to the nearest land. Countless
similar tales of porpoise rescue have been recorded in the annals of
seafaring. Hence the notion: "the porpoise is your friend."

We never hear about the cases where the porpoise towed the unfortunate bloke
farther out to sea!

So it is with guns. We hear, often in 144-point type, about the horrors
involving the misuse of firearms. But we seldom hear about the problems
prevented or the lives saved.

Of course! Takes some planning, know your backstop, and be
willing to pass up an unsafe shot.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
Save me having to review 419,000 messages. Are you one of
the great hunters
who thinks he can use a .22 in your environment?


"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
For me, about thirty feet.

--

Actually, your experience is very common among gun owners.
However, if the liberal socialists among us have thier way.
You will turn in all your guns for destruction without
compensation. For your own good. You will then be able to
call 911 and wait half hour or so for a cop to arrive and
make a crime report about your injury and death.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Mortimer Schnerd" wrote in
message
...

I have never shot anyone nor even pointed a gun at another
person. I
have had my life saved twice by my weapons over the years.
Just the
fact that I had one deescalated the situation to
nonviolence.

Is my situation typical? I have no idea. I don't know what
my
neighbors might have. They don't have a clue what I have.



Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerd at carolina.rr.com

I've seen those little shells, with what looks a bit like a
pill capsule for a projectile. I doubt they will do any
useful damage on a woodchuck.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

I'm surprised nobody has brought up .22 rat shot. Close up
it hits as
hard as a CB cap but 30-40' away it will barely penetrate
halfway
through a corrugated box.

Most folks who scare off a robber don't tell the cops. If
they are smart. At present, the porpoise of cops is to
arrest people. After the perp is gone, and all you got left
is happy home owner with a gun in his hand. Who you gonna
arrest, then? The one standing there, talking to you.

Most socialists don't want the proletariat to own guns. Us
middle class do enough damage with pitchforks when our bread
supply runs out. Imagine a bunch of hungry peasants with
firearms? The peasants are revolting!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
...

So it is with guns. We hear, often in 144-point type, about
the horrors
involving the misuse of firearms. But we seldom hear about
the problems
prevented or the lives saved.

Mortimer Schnerd wrote:


You'd beat your neighbor senseless but you advocate a green solution
to the woodchuck problem? I'd be concerned if I heard gunshots next
door but the last thing I would do is go confront the guy. If he
caused damage, call the cops. If he hurt somebody, call the cops. I'd
only confront him if there were still incoming ordnance to stop
the threat.
Me? If I had this guy's problem I'd probably try to dispatch the
critter with an air rifle. Less chance for collateral damage.




As a CHL holder, you are no doubt aware of all the legal ramifications of
your shot. In the current case, suppose there was "collateral damage." For
instance, a toddler 300 yards away playing with a kitten in his backyard
sandbox (the child's sandbox, not the kitten's).

When the cops arrive, you tell them the groundhog attacked you, pointing to
a torn pants leg. In fear of your life from a possibly rabid animal or one
infected with chastic fibrosis (a disease usually found in foxes), you
discharged your weapon and, at the last millisecond, the groundhog ducked!

Since there was no showing of negligence, combined with the compelling
exigent circumstances, the regrettable attendant death can be a degree of
homicide no greater than excusable, for which there is no penalty.

On Apr 22, 6:31*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
On the box, they used to say that a .22 bullet out of a
rifle can travel a mile and a half.

My opinion says about a mile and a half.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
...

I'm not about to go back and check, but in previous
incarnations of this
discussion, others have opined that they probably wouldn't
hit their
neighbor. If it's being discussed, it's a risk. How far can
a .22 fly, in
your opinion?

Years ago there was a case where a man shot a 22 rifle at the lake
surface.

The bullet went TWO MILES entered a moving car through a small window
and killed a girl.

The man went to prison for manslaughter..for decades.

TMT

Yeah. OK.


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Of course! Takes some planning, know your backstop, and be
willing to pass up an unsafe shot.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in
message ...
Save me having to review 419,000 messages. Are you one of
the great hunters
who thinks he can use a .22 in your environment?


"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
For me, about thirty feet.

--

On Apr 22, 10:30*am, Mortimer Schnerd
wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Live trap him and release in an approved area.

He has just as much right to life as you do.

Right up until the point he became destructive. *Besides, we are further
up the food chain than he is.

Ignore the idiots who are telling you to poison or shoot the
animal...you will most likely cause him to die under your
building...then you will have a serious problem of living with the
stink for 2-4 weeks.

So what? *We're talking about a shed, remember?

I am a gun owner and use guns daily...responsibly and legally...and I
take this subject very seriously.

Yes, I'm a gun owner too. *How is it that you use yours "daily"? *I
don't even handle one of mine on a daily basis, much less "use" it, and
I have a concealed carry permit.

With that said, if my neighbor discharged a gun illegally I would be
strongly tempted to beat him senseless before I called 9/11 to impress
on him the stupidity of his act that placed my family in danger.

Good luck with a successful and peaceful solution to the groundhog
problem.

You'd beat your neighbor senseless but you advocate a green solution to
the woodchuck problem? *I'd be concerned if I heard gunshots next door
but the last thing I would do is go confront the guy. *If he caused
damage, call the cops. *If he hurt somebody, call the cops. *I'd only
confront him if there were still incoming ordnance to stop the threat.

Me? *If I had this guy's problem I'd probably try to dispatch the
critter with an air rifle. *Less chance for collateral damage.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerd at carolina.rr.com

The woodchuck is no threat to you or me.

It is only in the wrong place.

Trap and relocate is the right thing to do if you value life at all.

As for the discharge of a gun, any idiot who fires a gun improperly on
my turf risks being beaten to a pulp.

When it happened in the past, the authorities suggested I leave the
perp his teeth next time.

To say that some idiot like Cheney and I will never go hunting is a
given.

TMT