On 6/1/2008 5:23 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

And if you care about what a wall wart uses, the only thing that
makes any sense at all is to replace the ones that are the dinosaur
transformer based wall warts with proper modern switch mode wall
warts instead and save virtually all of the power those use, and have
the convenience of being able to leave them plugged in all the time.

Well, yes, that would be an improvement.


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

Tony Hwang wrote:

h wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

I'm quite certain my wife would

not do w/o the auto-start feature and am even more certain she'd never
accept black.



Interesting. I've never used an auto-start in my life, and have no idea why
anyone would ever want to, and all my appliance are black


Hi,
Why not?
Don't like the convenience? You or your better wife stays home ll the time?

What convenience? I can think of very few things you'd cook in an oven
that could sit un-refrigerated half the day before the oven turned on,
and not give you food poisoning. Timed start is a feature looking for a
problem, timed shut off does have some utility however.

I think if we all disconnected all the lights we have that run 24/7 and all
these little clocks that we could make as much difference as AlGore does
with his global warming theories. If anyone is concerned about how much
electricity their clock uses, contact me, and I will send you a quarter for
a year's usage.

Steve

"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message
...
Tony Hwang wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?

If nothing else, I use the timer for the self-cleaning cycle. And before
someone starts telling me how much electricity the cycle uses, it's a lot
cheaper than a container of oven cleaner. And old-fashioned household
"tips" like leaving a pan of ammonia in the oven overnight don't work - I've
tried that sort of thing. Not to mention how much easier it is to set it
and forget it than it is to clean the oven by hand.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2008 3:53 PM Tony Hwang spake thus:

George wrote:



DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500
kV was the max for a while and I know the Canadians have a line in
service for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read
that the Chinese recently started construction of a 800 kV DC
transmission line.


Prove it with simple Ohm's law. If it is HV, how heavy is the cable
gonna be?


So far as that goes, keep in mind that as the voltage increases, the
size of the conductors needed to carry the electricity decreases (that's
one reason long-distance transmission lines are HV). So you can either
increase the size of the conductors, or step the voltage up using
existing conductors.


.... keeping in mind that the insulators will also need to be up to the
task presented by the increased voltage. :-)

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
Hmmm,
No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

In the 21 years we had our old oven we never used the timed start. I don't
remember if the one before that had that feature or not. Never had the
need. One of my criteria for our new range was minimal electronics. Don't
need them, don't want them. I expect the Bertazzoni will last 50 years with
maybe an igniter of the convection fan needing replacement in that time.
That's OK though as I'm not going to last another 50 years.

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:41:55 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 6/1/2008 5:23 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

And if you care about what a wall wart uses, the only thing that
makes any sense at all is to replace the ones that are the dinosaur
transformer based wall warts with proper modern switch mode wall
warts instead and save virtually all of the power those use, and have
the convenience of being able to leave them plugged in all the time.

Well, yes, that would be an improvement.

One suggestion made earlier in this group was to plug your charging
devices into a power strip that has an on/off switch. (forget about
the fact that the plugs are not designed to only take up one outlet
space)

Every little bit does help, and it is the right thing to do.

I don't really think Al Gore is doing his part, but that is another
story.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
And, of course, by disconnecting the range clock you've also disabled
the auto-on/off feature...

As an aside, it would seem quite unusual for a wall-sourced electric
clock to not be pretty accurate since grid frequency is normally pretty
precise.
--

The clock in our old range stopped working 10 years ago but it was still
right twice a day. New range has no clock, no electronics, no circuit
board, just plenty of power to cook with. www.bertazzoni-italia.com We
got the black 30"

OTOH, the clock in our (roughly 25 yr old) range still functions as
accurately as any in the house (including the electric which dates from
1948 when we first got grid REA power). I'm quite certain my wife would
not do w/o the auto-start feature and am even more certain she'd never
accept black.

--

Black and SS. They have 7 other colors too. The paint is applied at the
same place that Lamborghinis and Ferraris are painted. Same quality too.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
Every thing in this world either produces or uses energy!

You never met my grandson

wqwDavid Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2008 3:17 PM George spake thus:

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500
kV was the max for a while and I know the Canadians have a line in
service for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read
that the Chinese recently started construction of a 800 kV DC
transmission line.

Wow; so that old Tesla-Edison debate *isn't* settled science like
everyone wants us to believe, eh?

Well Edison wanted to transmit at the the same voltage it was going to
be used at. AC made it possible to transform to a higher voltage, and
less loss because there is less i^2 * r loss (double voltage = half
current for same power) I think Tesla would approve of the current
generation HVDC lines, remember the end distribution is still AC.

Got any good reading links on this?

I'm sure there's a good bit on the net.


I'm curious. And, in a nutshell, why
does DC have lower losses? (Not disputing, just curious.)

Advances in semiconductors and circuit breakers made HVDC possible.

You have a higher peak voltage with AC, so you will have more corona
loss. For underground cable, you'll have much less capacitive loss.

For long lines HVDC has a lot of advantages. Higher capacity, lower
losses and a smaller footprint because you have less lines.

Also, it makes it easier to sync power grids as the different power
generators don't all have to be in the same phase. That can be a big
issue and is why restarting a down generator or grid can take a long time.

Jeff

Bill wrote:

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)


So now you can't use the oven timer, right?

In article , Bob F wrote:

SNIP previously quoted material

I suspect that many wall-warts waste way more power that the electric
clock in an old oven.

All of these consume mostly 1-2 watts apiece. Electric clocks usually
consume about 2 watts.

Many but far from all wallwarts have losses more like 3, a few times 4
watts when fully loaded. Ones dissipating that much power get very warm.

Switcher type cell phone chargers tend to have losses around or under a
watt, usually well under a watt once the battery is charged.

As for power consumption of an LED in an AC-powered device, including
related power dissipations and losses in associated circuitry and the
power supply circuitry: Often anywhere from .05 to .4 watt. This is
usually .05 to .2 watt per LED in decices that have more of them. These
figures can easily be reduced by at least 75% using modern higher
efficiency LEDs, which are still usually not used for indicator lights
because they cost a few cents more than ones of technology that was
standard in the early 1980's.

Clock radios tend to consume anywhere from 1 to 4 watts apiece. Clock
displays on microwave ovens and VCRs tend to consume about half a watt to
a watt, give or take depending on the technology used.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for appliances that constantly consume a little power when they are
"off":

The converter box that I just got for my older tech TV consumes less
than a watt when it is "off", but it is consuming some power to run a red
LED and to be receptive to the remote to turn it "on".
I just measured my TV as drawing 12 watts when "off", according to my
"Kill-A-Watt" watt-meter, which actually measures true power consumption
as opposed to "reactive" and "harmonic", even for electronic-ballasted
CFLs. At my electricity rate, the off-time for my TV costs me about $13
per year! I oughtta get a power strip with a switch for it and the
converter box!

My desktop computer's ATX power supply is not fully "off" when "shut
down" by any means other than turning off the switch on the back of the
power supply or disconnecting it from AC power. The motherboard has an
LED that glows whenever the power supply is receiving power, and I hear a
very brief high piched squeal of the power supply's switching frequency
becoming audible whenever I do what it takes to make that motherboard LED
go out. I now have my desktop on a power strip with a switch to make it
fully "off" when I want it "off".
At least some printers also consume a little power when "off".
Supposedly, some of those perform a cleaning operation (with some ink
consumption) when power is applied/restored.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , metspitzer wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:41:55 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 6/1/2008 5:23 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

And if you care about what a wall wart uses, the only thing that
makes any sense at all is to replace the ones that are the dinosaur
transformer based wall warts with proper modern switch mode wall
warts instead and save virtually all of the power those use, and have
the convenience of being able to leave them plugged in all the time.

Well, yes, that would be an improvement.

One suggestion made earlier in this group was to plug your charging
devices into a power strip that has an on/off switch. (forget about
the fact that the plugs are not designed to only take up one outlet
space)

That is changing, especially notably with cell phone chargers. Notably,
the slim cell phone chargers have switchmode circuitry. The smallest 60
Hz iron core transformers I have seen that can put out a couple watts
won't fit in those.

Every little bit does help, and it is the right thing to do.

- Don Klipstein )

In , Jeff Wisnia wrote
in part:

Some power strips do use power. To light up the little pilot lamp which
indicates that the strip's switch is on.

If the pilot lamp is a neon lamp of C2A/NE-2H or A1C or similar type,
the power consumption of the neon lamp and its associated dropping
resistor (for 120 volts AC) is usually around 1/3 watt.

I don't remember too clearly what I found in terms of current and power
numbers for one with an LED pilot lamp, though I do think that .4 watt
sounds about right. This can be halved with noticeably increased LED
light output if an LED costing a few cents more and much more efficient is
used.

I wonder (but am too lazy to calculate) how long that light would have
to be left on to add a penny to your electric bill. G

It appears to me that the USA national average is about 11 cents per
KWH, maybe now closer to 12, and at least will be 12 soon.

1/3 watt at 12 cents per KWH for 1 year costs about 35 cents per year.

An InGaN green LED that gets plenty bright at half a milliamp (.06 watt
at 120 VAC including dropping resistor losses), plus dropping resistor and
bridge rectifier, in production quantities may cost 15 cents more than the
neon lamp. Add some more for likely a little circuit board and assembly.
I guess the retail cost goes up a couple bucks, maybe just one buck should
they sell by millions, to save about 30 cents a year (plus however
electricity rates inflate in the future).

I would buy them at that rate. Sadly, too many people won't even spend
extra up front two years' worth of electricity savings for a more
efficient model when shopping for refrigerators!

- Don Klipstein )

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
And, of course, by disconnecting the range clock you've also disabled
the auto-on/off feature...

As an aside, it would seem quite unusual for a wall-sourced electric
clock to not be pretty accurate since grid frequency is normally pretty
precise.
--
The clock in our old range stopped working 10 years ago but it was still
right twice a day. New range has no clock, no electronics, no circuit
board, just plenty of power to cook with. www.bertazzoni-italia.com We
got the black 30"
OTOH, the clock in our (roughly 25 yr old) range still functions as
accurately as any in the house (including the electric which dates from
1948 when we first got grid REA power). I'm quite certain my wife would
not do w/o the auto-start feature and am even more certain she'd never
accept black.

--

Black and SS. They have 7 other colors too. The paint is applied at the
same place that Lamborghinis and Ferraris are painted. Same quality too.

Happy for them, I guess...never make it here, though...

--

Lou wrote:
....
How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?
....

Since I was the one who pointed it out, don't have any statistic on
either numbers of people who do use it or an extensive list of all the
possible uses, but certainly it gets used for things like starting the
roast for Sunday dinner, etc., quite frequently.

--

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
Hmmm,
No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

In the 21 years we had our old oven we never used the timed start. I don't
remember if the one before that had that feature or not. Never had the
need. One of my criteria for our new range was minimal electronics. Don't
need them, don't want them. I expect the Bertazzoni will last 50 years with
maybe an igniter of the convection fan needing replacement in that time.
That's OK though as I'm not going to last another 50 years.

Different strokes...that's why they make more than one.

--

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:18:32 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

New range has no clock, no electronics, no circuit
board, just plenty of power to cook with. www.bertazzoni-italia.com We
got the black 30"

Black and SS. They have 7 other colors too. The paint is applied at the
same place that Lamborghinis and Ferraris are painted. Same quality too.

Very nice. How/why did you decide on this instead of Blue Star,
Viking, or Wolf? FYI, my sister selected Wolf because she felt it
would be easier to clean than Viking (don't think she looked at Blue
Star).

snip
At least some printers also consume a little power when "off".
Supposedly, some of those perform a cleaning operation (with some ink
consumption) when power is applied/restored.

I think that's common. And ink costs more than electricity.

I've just dumped my Epson, which consumed vast amounts of ink during
cleaning cycles, for an HP which recycles the ink back into the
cartridge. I don't mind turning my HP off, although it appears to have a
switch mode power supply.

HP has spent a large fortune on printer technology lately and the big
print shops are using HP's.

Jeff

- Don Klipstein )

In article , dpb wrote:

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)
...

If you can even measure the difference...

And, of course, by disconnecting the range clock you've also disabled
the auto-on/off feature...

I disconnected only my clock (it was noisy) so the oven light would
still work.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

SteveB wrote:
I think if we all disconnected all the lights we have that run 24/7 and all
these little clocks that we could make as much difference as AlGore does
with his global warming theories. If anyone is concerned about how much
electricity their clock uses, contact me, and I will send you a quarter for
a year's usage.

Hmm, I see you've snipped all context to make your point.

The real point is that phantom power loss is not negligible and
accounts for 5% to 10% worldwide. Higher in more developed economies.
Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).

Now, you will probably object to any regulation that would level the
playing field and require all manufacturers to reduce phantom drain.
And that's a real shame as the technology already exists and the return
on investment is quick.

You can't consume your way out of every problem. You certainly would
rather do nothing about global warming. It's funny how some people can
deny the human component of global warming and yet have no problem with
the rationale of going to war in Iraq.

Also note that I've never advocated removing the clock from the range.

Jeff


Steve

In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).

Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just
pure BS.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

SteveB wrote:
I think if we all disconnected all the lights we have that run 24/7 and all
these little clocks that we could make as much difference as AlGore does
with his global warming theories. If anyone is concerned about how much
electricity their clock uses, contact me, and I will send you a quarter for
a year's usage.

Steve


Actually no. Current estimates that make sense if you do the math show
that 9% of electrical power is wasted just due to cheap power supplies.
For some reason a lot of people just don't see how little things add up.

"Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply" wrote in message
Bill wrote:

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)


So now you can't use the oven timer, right?


Right I can't use the oven timer. BUT I am no Julia Child! I have burned
boiled chicken. In other words I would never use an oven timer nor would I
ever use the clock on a range.

By the way my electric bill last month was $32. This is because of doing
many little things like the above, buying new Energy Star appliances (use
less energy), use compact fluorescent light bulbs everywhere, use woodstove
for heating, have beefed up insulation on house, installed Energy Star
windows, and turn off power to electronic things when not in use (with power
strip).

On Jun 1, 8:50*am, "Bill" wrote:
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and
using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things like this can add
up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the power
strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

So having done this...was your electric bill substantially smaller the
next month?

On Jun 1, 12:55*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2008 11:59 AM Rod Speed spake thus:

Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Haven't you noticed that even the power companies themselves (like PG&E
here) are running ad campaigns advising people to get rid of all those
"phantom" electricity users?

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

I have and I'm annoyed at some of these commercials, even though I do
understand about vampire electrical use. My 1960+ Sunbeam Toaster and
basic Mr. Coffee (just has the on/off switch) do not use electricity
while sitting on the counter plugged in. Yet based on some of those
commercials the average consumer would think they do. They don't say
how to tell if you have vampires in your house. However, I do know
that my microwave, TV(s), vcr(s), cable box(es) etc. do. But I don't
feel like reprogramming everytime I want to use them, so I let them
continue to feast.

Bill wrote
Samantha Hill wrote
Bill wrote

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

So now you can't use the oven timer, right?

Right I can't use the oven timer. BUT I am no Julia Child! I have burned boiled chicken. In other words I would never
use an oven timer nor would I ever use the clock on a range.

It saves **** all.

By the way my electric bill last month was $32. This is because of doing many little things like the above,

Nope.

buying new Energy Star appliances (use less energy),

Thats the real reason your bill dropped significantly, and that
was nothing like a little thing, and wasnt cheap to do either.

use compact fluorescent light bulbs everywhere, use woodstove for heating,

Thats nothing like a little thing either.

have beefed up insulation on house, installed Energy Star windows,

Or those in spades.

and turn off power to electronic things when not in use (with power strip).

That saved you **** all and using switch mode wall warts is a MUCH more practical
approach because you dont have to fart around turning stuff off all the time.

This guy is years ahead of his time. Someday we will all be scraping the
bottom of the savings barrel this fastidiously. Well at least I hope not.
By the time the oil really runs out, we should be getting most of our
electricity from various green sources.



"Bill" wrote in message
...
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running
and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things like this can
add up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the
power strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).

Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just
pure BS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power

From the US department of Energy:

"Many appliances continue to draw a small amount of power when they
are switched off. These "phantom" loads occur in most appliances that
use electricity, such as VCRs, televisions, stereos, computers, and
kitchen appliances. In the average home, 75% of the electricity used to
power home electronics is consumed while the products are turned off.
This can be avoided by unplugging the appliance or using a power strip
and using the switch on the power strip to cut all power to the
appliance."[4]

It would seem the only government office you believe in is the OVP.

Jeff


Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

This may seem extreme to most of us living on the grid but if one were to be
living off the grid maybe using solar and batteries, this kind of stuff
makes a measurable difference. For that matter if you have a gas range and
it only needs 110V, you could put it on a wall switch and avoid modifying
the range.

I can't imagine the OP with an electric range but for some reason he
evidently does. For newer ranges with electronic controls, this would not
be possible as the clock is integrated into all the controls.


"Bill" wrote in message
...
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running
and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things like this can
add up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the
power strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

Jeff wrote
wrote
Jeff wrote

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).

Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just pure BS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power

From the US department of Energy:

"Many appliances continue to draw a small amount of power when
they are switched off. These "phantom" loads occur in most appliances
that use electricity, such as VCRs, televisions, stereos, computers,
and kitchen appliances. In the average home, 75% of the electricity
used to power home electronics is consumed while the products are
turned off. This can be avoided by unplugging the appliance or using
a power strip and using the switch on the power strip to cut all
power to the appliance."[4]

Doesnt say anything like your stupid claim at the top.

It would seem the only government office you believe in is the OVP.

Or that you have never ever had a clue.

Pipedown wrote

This guy is years ahead of his time.

Nope.

Someday we will all be scraping the bottom of the savings barrel this fastidiously.

Nope.

Well at least I hope not. By the time the oil really runs out, we should be getting most of our electricity from
various green sources.

The vast bulk of our electricity doesnt come from oil, it comes from coal,
and even if we stop doing that because of the CO2 produced by that
approach, we'll be using nukes instead, not 'various green sources'


Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things
like this can add up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the power strips when not in use. These things use
electricity all the time...

In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:
wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).

Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just
pure BS.

kitchen appliances. In the average home, 75% of the electricity used to
power home electronics is consumed while the products are turned off.

That is not the same as "appliances use more power 'off' than on."
The power usage rate is certainly less during standby than during
regular usage. Duty cycle of off time vs. on time can certainly
mean that an appliance *may* use more energy over time during standby, but
only because it is in standby for much longer periods. When dealing
with kitchen appliances, the standby current is very low relative to
in use current because most kitchen appliances tend to be fairly big
energy users. I doubt the LED clock on my stove uses as much energy
in 1 year as one burner uses to boil a pot of water in 5 minutes.

The big hits on standby power are going to be VCRs, computers, TVs
and the like. Those tend to not use a lot of power when in use, so
the relative difference between standby and in use is not as much to
overcome.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:
wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).
Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just
pure BS.

kitchen appliances. In the average home, 75% of the electricity used to
power home electronics is consumed while the products are turned off.

That is not the same as "appliances use more power 'off' than on."
The power usage rate is certainly less during standby than during
regular usage. Duty cycle of off time vs. on time can certainly
mean that an appliance *may* use more energy over time during standby, but
only because it is in standby for much longer periods. When dealing
with kitchen appliances, the standby current is very low relative to
in use current because most kitchen appliances tend to be fairly big
energy users. I doubt the LED clock on my stove uses as much energy
in 1 year as one burner uses to boil a pot of water in 5 minutes.

The big hits on standby power are going to be VCRs, computers, TVs
and the like. Those tend to not use a lot of power when in use, so
the relative difference between standby and in use is not as much to
overcome.

All true but it's still hard to believe the "average house" over 75% in
standby, even for electronics. Maybe I have a hard time thinking that
because I'm sure my house is far below average in numbers of these
devices so I suspect my estimate of "average" is skewed as compared to
the sample mean.

--

Rod Speed wrote:
....
The vast bulk of our electricity doesnt come from oil, it comes from coal,
and even if we stop doing that because of the CO2 produced by that
approach, we'll be using nukes instead, not 'various green sources'
....

Nuclear _is_ a "green" source...

--

In misc.consumers.frugal-living dpb wrote:

All true but it's still hard to believe the "average house" over 75% in
standby, even for electronics. Maybe I have a hard time thinking that
because I'm sure my house is far below average in numbers of these
devices so I suspect my estimate of "average" is skewed as compared to
the sample mean.

Yeah, I find that a little hard to believe too, but I only have
one TV in my house. So, I'm probably not "average" either in that
regard. In my kitchen the only things that use any standby power
are the stove, microwave, and coffee maker. The coffee maker has
a couple of LEDs that stay on, pointlessly, all the time but it
certainly uses more energy making a pot of coffee in the morning
than those LEDs use the other 23.5 hours of the day. The same
goes for the microwave and stove clocks. The microwave has a
clock display that I disable mostly because I don't need 4 clocks
in my kitchen, but I'm sure the clock circuit is still running and
it just doesn't display the time. The stove and coffee maker both
have clocks which can't be disabled, but again, any one of those
use more energy in daily usage than the standby uses the entire
rest of the time, by a wide margin.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:
wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).

Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just
pure BS.

In the average home, 75% of the electricity used to power home
electronics is consumed while the products are turned off.

That isnt relevant to the total power use of the house tho.

And is dubious with some of the home electronics like TVs and
computers, which just happen to be the main uses of power in
the average home even with just the home electronics.

That is not the same as "appliances use more power 'off' than on."
The power usage rate is certainly less during standby than during
regular usage. Duty cycle of off time vs. on time can certainly
mean that an appliance *may* use more energy over time during
standby, but only because it is in standby for much longer periods.
When dealing
with kitchen appliances, the standby current is very low relative to
in use current because most kitchen appliances tend to be fairly big
energy users. I doubt the LED clock on my stove uses as much energy
in 1 year as one burner uses to boil a pot of water in 5 minutes.

The big hits on standby power are going to be VCRs, computers, TVs
and the like. Those tend to not use a lot of power when in use, so the
relative difference between standby and in use is not as much to overcome.

dpb wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:

The vast bulk of our electricity doesnt come from oil, it comes from
coal, and even if we stop doing that because of the CO2 produced by
that approach, we'll be using nukes instead, not 'various green sources'

Nuclear _is_ a "green" source...

Nope.

wrote:
....
... In my kitchen the only things that use any standby power
are the stove, microwave, and coffee maker. The coffee maker has
a couple of LEDs that stay on, pointlessly, all the time but it
certainly uses more energy making a pot of coffee in the morning
than those LEDs use the other 23.5 hours of the day. ...

The problem w/ the coffee maker we currently have is it thinks it has to
get a second fill ready to brew any second so preheats the other water
w/ no way to disable this "feature". Not only is it a power waster, the
water level is always low from boil-off so have to add extra to compensate.

The microwave is combined in the range so nothing additional there and
it's mechanical display w/ no processor boards, there's a clock radio w/
its display, but that's it for electronic gadgets in kitchen.

--

wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:
wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Jeff wrote:

Many appliance use more power "off" than on (collectively).
Uh, cite? No, never mind, the above statement is just
pure BS.

kitchen appliances. In the average home, 75% of the electricity used to
power home electronics is consumed while the products are turned off.

That is not the same as "appliances use more power 'off' than on."
The power usage rate is certainly less during standby than during
regular usage. Duty cycle of off time vs. on time can certainly
mean that an appliance *may* use more energy over time during standby, but
only because it is in standby for much longer periods.

Yes, did you miss the collectively?

How could you possibly think otherwise?

Isn't this whole thread about the amount of energy wasted while in standby?


When dealing
with kitchen appliances, the standby current is very low relative to
in use current because most kitchen appliances tend to be fairly big
energy users. I doubt the LED clock on my stove uses as much energy
in 1 year as one burner uses to boil a pot of water in 5 minutes.

Actually, and I had misnamed before, Energy should be what we are
talking about as energy has a time component. The power company bills
for the amount of energy you use. The amount of power you use at any
instant is usually irrelevant (unless you have peak billing).

Now, I would say that most stoves use more energy on than off(there's
wide range here, I'm sure my old Jennaire uses no power when off).


I don't know how much power a typical stove with electronic controls
uses but I found this.

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/transformers.html

The clock on the microwave uses more energy than the oven

The first time I heard that statement I thought,"Great, another
electrical myth, like the myth that you should leave lights on because
they take a lot of electricity to start up.". After all, I knew that the
oven uses about 1000 watts while the clock uses five.

But then I thought, wait a minute, the clock is running 24/7, while the
oven is running just a few minutes a day. Then I did the math:

How much energy the clock uses in a day: 5 (watts) x 24 (hours) =
120 (watt-hours)

How long it takes the microwave to the same amount of energy:
120 watt-hours / 1000 watts = 0.12 hours, or 7.2 minutes

This means that if you use a typical microwave oven for less than 7.2
minutes/day, the clock uses more electricity than the oven. Wow.

That sounds perhaps even low to me and it is possible it uses twice
the power while off. I suppose I could dig out my amprobe and check my
late model name brand microwave since I don't have a kill a watt meter.


They are but one "electronic" device in a home though.


The big hits on standby power are going to be VCRs, computers, TVs
and the like. Those tend to not use a lot of power when in use, so
the relative difference between standby and in use is not as much to
overcome.

Who said otherwise? If you read this thread, I've never advocated
removing a clock from a stove, quite the opposite.


Jeff

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.