The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and
using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things like this can add
up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the power
strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

Bill wrote:
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things
like this can add up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)


Savings? Bah. Now you'll have to buy your wife a watch.

HeyBub wrote:
Bill wrote:
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things
like this can add up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)


Savings? Bah. Now you'll have to buy your wife a watch.


Watches are pretty much out of vogue as most people check their cell
phones fro time. It looks like you'll have to buy her a new cellphone
for kitchen work.

Electric consumption of any clock, sans lighting, is nearly
negligible. Certainly compared to a ranges power use!

Jeff

On Jun 1, 11:50 am, "Bill" wrote:
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and
using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things like this can add
up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the power
strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

Now.....you be SURE to disconnect the fridge lights, oven light, and
rip out the range hood while you're at it.

Never knew about power strips...anyone care to dispute that?

Bill wrote:
The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and
using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things like this can add
up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)
....

If you can even measure the difference...

And, of course, by disconnecting the range clock you've also disabled
the auto-on/off feature...

As an aside, it would seem quite unusual for a wall-sourced electric
clock to not be pretty accurate since grid frequency is normally pretty
precise.
--

"val189" wrote in message

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the
power
strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

Now.....you be SURE to disconnect the fridge lights, oven light, and
rip out the range hood while you're at it.

Never knew about power strips...anyone care to dispute that?

I think he's talking about electronics plugged into the strips, not the
strips themselves

"dpb" wrote in message

And, of course, by disconnecting the range clock you've also disabled the
auto-on/off feature...

As an aside, it would seem quite unusual for a wall-sourced electric clock
to not be pretty accurate since grid frequency is normally pretty precise.
--

The clock in our old range stopped working 10 years ago but it was still
right twice a day. New range has no clock, no electronics, no circuit
board, just plenty of power to cook with. www.bertazzoni-italia.com We got
the black 30"

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
And, of course, by disconnecting the range clock you've also disabled the
auto-on/off feature...

As an aside, it would seem quite unusual for a wall-sourced electric clock
to not be pretty accurate since grid frequency is normally pretty precise.
--

The clock in our old range stopped working 10 years ago but it was still
right twice a day. New range has no clock, no electronics, no circuit
board, just plenty of power to cook with. www.bertazzoni-italia.com We got
the black 30"

OTOH, the clock in our (roughly 25 yr old) range still functions as
accurately as any in the house (including the electric which dates from
1948 when we first got grid REA power). I'm quite certain my wife would
not do w/o the auto-start feature and am even more certain she'd never
accept black.

--

Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many
little things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

And if you dont have a clue about the cost of the electricity it uses.

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the power strips when not in use. These things use
electricity all the time...

But if you use electricity for cooking, hot water and house heating,
those uses will completely swamp the use by stuff like the range clock.

val189 wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things
like this can add up.)

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the
power strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...

Now.....you be SURE to disconnect the fridge lights,
oven light, and rip out the range hood while you're at it.

Never knew about power strips...anyone care to dispute that?

He didnt say that the power strip itself uses any power, just that he uses
power strips as a convenient way to turn off what isnt used all the time,
most obviously plug packs/wall warts that so many of the smaller devices
use now, and other stuff that isnt normally turned off when not in use.

On 6/1/2008 11:59 AM Rod Speed spake thus:

Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Haven't you noticed that even the power companies themselves (like PG&E
here) are running ad campaigns advising people to get rid of all those
"phantom" electricity users?

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2008 11:59 AM Rod Speed spake thus:

Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)


No they cant.


Yes, they can, and do.

Haven't you noticed that even the power companies themselves (like PG&E
here) are running ad campaigns advising people to get rid of all those
"phantom" electricity users?

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.


Hmmm,
No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and using electricity. (Small amount, but
many little things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.

Haven't you noticed that even the power companies themselves (like PG&E here) are running ad campaigns advising people
to get rid of all those "phantom" electricity users?

They aint talking about the clock in a range.

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--
use a trememdous amount of electricity when added up.

Pity that the clock in a range being discussed cant add up when there is only one of them.

And the range takes vastly more power when you turn one of the
plates on so that completely swamps the power the clock uses.

On 6/1/2008 1:43 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.

The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change the
fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small amounts
of electricity, and when added together constitute a significant
fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount, but
see above) is a good thing to do.


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

Rod Speed wrote:
val189 wrote

Bill wrote


The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things
like this can add up.)

It's sort of hard to believe that it wasn't keeping correct time. Was
there perhaps a "cook timer" function operated by a little knob in the
center of the clock face? That's where the one on our stove's clock is,
and if you don't do the cook timer setting function correctly you can
advance the time on the clock.

Plus, you can't set the clock "backwards", so if you advance it say 10
minutes by clumsy setting of the cook timer the only way to reset the
time is to crank the minute hand around almost twelve rotations,
someting SWMBO never sees a need to do.


So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)


I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the
power strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the time...


Now.....you be SURE to disconnect the fridge lights,
oven light, and rip out the range hood while you're at it.


Never knew about power strips...anyone care to dispute that?


He didnt say that the power strip itself uses any power, just that he uses
power strips as a convenient way to turn off what isnt used all the time,
most obviously plug packs/wall warts that so many of the smaller devices
use now, and other stuff that isnt normally turned off when not in use.




Some power strips do use power. To light up the little pilot lamp which
indicates that the strip's switch is on.

I wonder (but am too lazy to calculate) how long that light would have
to be left on to add a penny to your electric bill. G

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2008 11:59 AM Rod Speed spake thus:

Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Haven't you noticed that even the power companies themselves (like PG&E
here) are running ad campaigns advising people to get rid of all those
"phantom" electricity users?

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.


For sure, slow and steady always wins the race. In this case it is
waste. People tend to focus on big things but it is the small wasteful
or efficient things multiplied by hundreds of millions of users that
really ad up. Those cheepo wall wart power supplies waste power in two
ways. One is standby loss. Assume they loose a low 3W/each and you have
10. That is a waste of 22.32kwh/month per home just having them plugged
in and not even doing anything useful.

Then the cheepo power supplies are quite inefficient when powering a
load. I have read that the waste is collectively over 50 billion
kwh/year in the US.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 6/1/2008 1:43 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Bill wrote


The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)


No they cant.


Yes, they can, and do.


Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.


The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change the
fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small amounts
of electricity, and when added together constitute a significant
fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount, but
see above) is a good thing to do.



Has anyone thought about how much wasted electricity we'd be saving now
if the utilities could have forseen the eventual spike in energy cost
and used heavier conductors for their runs?

I'd expect that the added cost of the copper or aluminum needed to
reduce resistive losses in all those distribution wires by making them
thicker would get paid off pretty fast at today's fuel costs.

(It's a good thing Edison didn't win out, or we'd still be distributing
electricity at 110 volts DC throughout our power systems, with even
greater transmission losses. G)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

Anthony Matonak wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?

Anthony

I don't believe ovens have had delayed start for a long time due to
safety reasons but most have cooking length timers. We use ours all of
the time mainly as a reminder when to remove the food. But it wouldn't
be a major deal if it didn't have a timer because there are lots of
inexpensive windup or electronic timers that could be substituted.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Rod Speed wrote:

val189 wrote

Bill wrote



The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little things
like this can add up.)


It's sort of hard to believe that it wasn't keeping correct time. Was
there perhaps a "cook timer" function operated by a little knob in the
center of the clock face? That's where the one on our stove's clock is,
and if you don't do the cook timer setting function correctly you can
advance the time on the clock.

Plus, you can't set the clock "backwards", so if you advance it say 10
minutes by clumsy setting of the cook timer the only way to reset the
time is to crank the minute hand around almost twelve rotations,
someting SWMBO never sees a need to do.



So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)



I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the
power strips when not in use. These things use electricity all the
time...



Now.....you be SURE to disconnect the fridge lights,
oven light, and rip out the range hood while you're at it.



Never knew about power strips...anyone care to dispute that?



He didnt say that the power strip itself uses any power, just that he
uses
power strips as a convenient way to turn off what isnt used all the time,
most obviously plug packs/wall warts that so many of the smaller devices
use now, and other stuff that isnt normally turned off when not in use.



Some power strips do use power. To light up the little pilot lamp which
indicates that the strip's switch is on.

I wonder (but am too lazy to calculate) how long that light would have
to be left on to add a penny to your electric bill. G

I think it'll light for a year on about a penny.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Sun 01 Jun 2008 01:48:42p, Anthony Matonak told us...

Tony Hwang wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote: ...
A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?

Anthony


That's only half of the reason to leave it connected. Most modern ranges
have an electronic clock combined with the controls to set the temperature
and turn the oven on and off. You disconnect that and you won't ever bake
again.

Now, if you range is 30 years old, that's another story (usually).

Apart from the clock/timer on a range, most other "always on" devices have
a reason for always being on. If unplugged or disconnected, you generally
have to reset all the options every time you plug the device in. Good
examples are VCR and DVD recorders, coffeemakers with programmable cycles,
almost anything that stores settings.

Yes, you're paying for the convenience of using that energy, but it's
terribly inconvenient if you don't.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Sunday, 06(VI)/01(I)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Be kind to your inferiors, if you can
find any.
-------------------------------------------

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
snip

Apart from the clock/timer on a range, most other "always on" devices have
a

poor

reason for always being on. If unplugged or disconnected, you generally
have to reset all the options every time you plug the

poorly designed

device in. Good
examples are

poorly designed

VCR and DVD recorders, coffeemakers with programmable cycles,
almost anything that stores settings

in volatile memory instead of the correct way

..
snip

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 6/1/2008 1:43 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Bill wrote


The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)


No they cant.


Yes, they can, and do.


Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.


The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change
the fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small
amounts of electricity, and when added together constitute a
significant fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount, but
see above) is a good thing to do.



Has anyone thought about how much wasted electricity we'd be saving now
if the utilities could have forseen the eventual spike in energy cost
and used heavier conductors for their runs?

I'd expect that the added cost of the copper or aluminum needed to
reduce resistive losses in all those distribution wires by making them
thicker would get paid off pretty fast at today's fuel costs.

They generally deal with that by increasing system voltage levels and
keeping the voltage as high as possible until they reach the point of
utilization. For example the two transmission lines that come into my
area used to be 120kV and last year they increased them to 240kV.


(It's a good thing Edison didn't win out, or we'd still be distributing
electricity at 110 volts DC throughout our power systems, with even
greater transmission losses. G)

Jeff

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500 kV
was the max for a while and I know the Canadians have a line in service
for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read that the
Chinese recently started construction of a 800 kV DC transmission line.

Jeff Wisnia wrote
Rod Speed wrote
val189 wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps running and using electricity. (Small amount, but
many little things like this can add up.)

It's sort of hard to believe that it wasn't keeping correct time. Was
there perhaps a "cook timer" function operated by a little knob in the
center of the clock face? That's where the one on our stove's clock
is, and if you don't do the cook timer setting function correctly you
can advance the time on the clock.

Plus, you can't set the clock "backwards", so if you advance it say 10
minutes by clumsy setting of the cook timer the only way to reset the
time is to crank the minute hand around almost twelve rotations,
someting SWMBO never sees a need to do.

So I pulled my electric range out from the wall, unplugged it, and
disconnected the clock. (Only do this if you know what you are doing.)

I already have many electronic things on power strips and turn off the power strips when not in use. These things
use electricity all the time...

Now.....you be SURE to disconnect the fridge lights,
oven light, and rip out the range hood while you're at it.

Never knew about power strips...anyone care to dispute that?

He didnt say that the power strip itself uses any power, just that
he uses power strips as a convenient way to turn off what isnt used
all the time, most obviously plug packs/wall warts that so many of
the smaller devices use now, and other stuff that isnt normally
turned off when not in use.

Some power strips do use power. To light up the little pilot lamp
which indicates that the strip's switch is on.

Thats a completely trivial amount of power compared with whats plugged into it.

I wonder (but am too lazy to calculate) how long that light would have to be left on to add a penny to your electric
bill. G

Try a year or so.

On 6/1/2008 3:09 PM CJT spake thus:

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
snip
device in. Good
examples are

poorly designed

VCR and DVD recorders, coffeemakers with programmable cycles,
almost anything that stores settings

in volatile memory instead of the correct way

Right. Can you say "NOVRAM"?


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

Anthony Matonak wrote
Tony Hwang wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?

The most obvious example is raw meat which you want to start roasting
while you are still out of the house, so its cooked when you show up later.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2008 3:09 PM CJT spake thus:

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
snip
device in. Good
examples are

poorly designed

VCR and DVD recorders, coffeemakers with programmable cycles,
almost anything that stores settings

in volatile memory instead of the correct way

Right. Can you say "NOVRAM"?


Sure, and for cases where power is required all of the time use a high
efficiency switcher instead of the cheap walmart class junk currently in
use.

David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.

The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change the fact that things like clocks, wall warts,
etc., still use small amounts of electricity,

That bit was JUST about the clock. There is no wall wart with a range.

and when added together constitute a significant fraction of energy usage.

And the clock he stupidly disconnected doesnt.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount,

Too small an amount to bother about for anyone by a mindless anal obsessive.

but see above)

See above.

is a good thing to do.

Nope, completely stupid waste of time.

Jeff Wisnia wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.

The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change
the fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small
amounts of electricity, and when added together constitute a
significant fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount, but
see above) is a good thing to do.

Has anyone thought about how much wasted electricity we'd be saving now if the utilities could have forseen the
eventual spike in energy cost and used heavier conductors for their runs?

Yes, the power companys do that all the time.

I'd expect that the added cost of the copper or aluminum needed to reduce resistive losses in all those distribution
wires by making them thicker would get paid off pretty fast at today's fuel costs.

Fraid not, essentially because the price of copper has increased dramatically too.

(It's a good thing Edison didn't win out, or we'd still be
distributing electricity at 110 volts DC throughout our power
systems, with even greater transmission losses. G)

Nope, that would never have survived the dramatic increase in the use of electricity.

On 6/1/2008 3:17 PM George spake thus:

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500 kV
was the max for a while and I know the Canadians have a line in service
for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read that the
Chinese recently started construction of a 800 kV DC transmission line.

Wow; so that old Tesla-Edison debate *isn't* settled science like
everyone wants us to believe, eh?

Got any good reading links on this? I'm curious. And, in a nutshell, why
does DC have lower losses? (Not disputing, just curious.)


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

On 6/1/2008 3:27 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote

and when added together constitute a significant fraction of energy usage.

And the clock he stupidly disconnected doesnt.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount,

Too small an amount to bother about for anyone by a mindless anal obsessive.

You're missing the point, my friend. You're thinking "how much money
will someone save on their electric bill by disconnecting a clock?" (the
answer to which is, of course, practically nothing). I'm talking about
the *collective* energy usage of all those millions of clocks, wall
warts, etc., plugged in out there.


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill

h wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

I'm quite certain my wife would

not do w/o the auto-start feature and am even more certain she'd never
accept black.



Interesting. I've never used an auto-start in my life, and have no idea why
anyone would ever want to, and all my appliance are black


Hi,
Why not?
Don't like the convenience? You or your better wife stays home ll the time?

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 6/1/2008 1:43 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Bill wrote



The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)



No they cant.



Yes, they can, and do.



Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.



The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change
the fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small
amounts of electricity, and when added together constitute a
significant fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount, but
see above) is a good thing to do.



Has anyone thought about how much wasted electricity we'd be saving now
if the utilities could have forseen the eventual spike in energy cost
and used heavier conductors for their runs?

I'd expect that the added cost of the copper or aluminum needed to
reduce resistive losses in all those distribution wires by making them
thicker would get paid off pretty fast at today's fuel costs.

(It's a good thing Edison didn't win out, or we'd still be distributing
electricity at 110 volts DC throughout our power systems, with even
greater transmission losses. G)

Jeff

Hi,
No kidding. I wonder what kinda car the OP'er drives.

George wrote:

Anthony Matonak wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

...

A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!


How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?

Anthony


I don't believe ovens have had delayed start for a long time due to
safety reasons but most have cooking length timers. We use ours all of
the time mainly as a reminder when to remove the food. But it wouldn't
be a major deal if it didn't have a timer because there are lots of
inexpensive windup or electronic timers that could be substituted.
Hi,
Electronic timer uses energy as well as spring wound ones. Every thing
in this world either produces or uses energy!

George wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 6/1/2008 1:43 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Bill wrote



The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)



No they cant.



Yes, they can, and do.



Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the
plates on for has a MUCH more important effect on the electricity used.



The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change
the fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small
amounts of electricity, and when added together constitute a
significant fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount, but
see above) is a good thing to do.



Has anyone thought about how much wasted electricity we'd be saving
now if the utilities could have forseen the eventual spike in energy
cost and used heavier conductors for their runs?

I'd expect that the added cost of the copper or aluminum needed to
reduce resistive losses in all those distribution wires by making them
thicker would get paid off pretty fast at today's fuel costs.


They generally deal with that by increasing system voltage levels and
keeping the voltage as high as possible until they reach the point of
utilization. For example the two transmission lines that come into my
area used to be 120kV and last year they increased them to 240kV.


(It's a good thing Edison didn't win out, or we'd still be
distributing electricity at 110 volts DC throughout our power systems,
with even greater transmission losses. G)

Jeff

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500 kV
was the max for a while and I know the Canadians have a line in service
for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read that the
Chinese recently started construction of a 800 kV DC transmission line.

Whoa!
Prove it with simple Ohm's law. If it is HV, how heavy is the cable
gonna be? Is it EASY to generate HV DC, I mean pure DC?

"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message
...
Tony Hwang wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
A guy here at UC Berkeley has done research showing that all these
things--wall warts, devices that power LEDs, etc.--use a trememdous
amount of electricity when added up.

No kidding! But if the clock is disconnected can't do timed use of oven!

How many people use the timer on an oven? What kinds of food can
you leave in an oven for many hours without it going bad on you?

Anthony

You, apparently, have never met my wife. If it is in the refrigerator or in
the oven, the term "shelf life" does not apply because mysterious physics
surrounding both. It will magically last forever, or change color and
texture to become some new food.

Or, at least that's what she says.

I finally had to say, "If you can't tell me how old this is, I'm not going
to eat it."

I still have to say that a lot.

Her mother is worse.

Steve

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 6/1/2008 3:17 PM George spake thus:

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less expensive
to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500 kV was the max for
a while and I know the Canadians have a line in service for at least 20 years
that operates at 735 kV DC and I read that the Chinese recently started
construction of a 800 kV DC transmission line.

Wow; so that old Tesla-Edison debate *isn't* settled science like everyone
wants us to believe, eh?

Got any good reading links on this? I'm curious. And, in a nutshell, why does
DC have lower losses? (Not disputing, just curious.)

AC has added capacitive and inductive losses, added to the resistive losses of
DC.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 6/1/2008 3:27 PM Rod Speed spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote

and when added together constitute a significant fraction of energy usage.

And the clock he stupidly disconnected doesnt.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then
disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small amount,

Too small an amount to bother about for anyone by a mindless anal obsessive.

You're missing the point, my friend. You're thinking "how much money will
someone save on their electric bill by disconnecting a clock?" (the answer to
which is, of course, practically nothing). I'm talking about the *collective*
energy usage of all those millions of clocks, wall warts, etc., plugged in out
there.

I suspect that many wall-warts waste way more power that the electric clock in
an old oven.

Tony Hwang wrote
George wrote
Jeff Wisnia wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill wrote

The clock on my range has never kept correct time, yet it keeps
running and using electricity. (Small amount, but many little
things like this can add up.)

No they cant.

Yes, they can, and do.

Nope, not with an electric range where the time you have one of the plates on for has a MUCH more important effect
on the electricity used.

The fact that the burners use a lot more electricity doesn't change
the fact that things like clocks, wall warts, etc., still use small
amounts of electricity, and when added together constitute a
significant fraction of energy usage.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose,
then disconnecting it to save electricity (an admittedly small
amount, but see above) is a good thing to do.

Has anyone thought about how much wasted electricity we'd be saving
now if the utilities could have forseen the eventual spike in energy
cost and used heavier conductors for their runs?

I'd expect that the added cost of the copper or aluminum needed to
reduce resistive losses in all those distribution wires by making
them thicker would get paid off pretty fast at today's fuel costs.

They generally deal with that by increasing system voltage levels and
keeping the voltage as high as possible until they reach the point of
utilization. For example the two transmission lines that come into my
area used to be 120kV and last year they increased them to 240kV.

(It's a good thing Edison didn't win out, or we'd still be
distributing electricity at 110 volts DC throughout our power
systems, with even greater transmission losses. G)

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500 kV was the max for a while and I know the
Canadians have a line in service for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read that the Chinese
recently started construction of a 800 kV DC transmission line.

Whoa!

We aint horses, Tonto.

Prove it with simple Ohm's law.

Not possible, because more than simple ohm's law is involved.

If it is HV, how heavy is the cable gonna be?

Depends on how much power you want to move thru it.

Is it EASY to generate HV DC, I mean pure DC?

Its not that EASY, but still worth doing in some situations.

David Nebenzahl wrote
Rod Speed wrote
David Nebenzahl wrote

and when added together constitute a significant fraction of energy usage.

And the clock he stupidly disconnected doesnt.

The point is that if the clock isn't serving any useful purpose, then disconnecting it to save electricity (an
admittedly small amount,

Too small an amount to bother about for anyone but a mindless anal obsessive.

You're missing the point,

Nope, you are.

my friend.

You're no friend of mine.

You're thinking "how much money will someone save on their electric bill by disconnecting a clock?"

Nope. I rubbed your nose in the FACT that with the RANGE
being discussed, the use of electricity by the clock is such a
trivial part of what the rest of the RANGE uses that it isnt worth
bothering about unless you are a mindless anal obsessive.

(the answer to which is, of course, practically nothing).

So it isnt worth bothering about disconnecting THE CLOCK IN THE RANGE
which happened to be what the OP was stupid enough to bother about.

I'm talking about the *collective* energy usage of all those millions of clocks, wall warts, etc., plugged in out
there.

Pity that hardly anyone is actually stupid enough to bother
to disconnect the clocks in many of the RANGES out there.

And if you care about what a wall wart uses, the only thing that
makes any sense at all is to replace the ones that are the dinosaur
transformer based wall warts with proper modern switch mode wall
warts instead and save virtually all of the power those use, and have
the convenience of being able to leave them plugged in all the time.

On 6/1/2008 3:53 PM Tony Hwang spake thus:

George wrote:

DC high voltage transmission lines have lower losses and are less
expensive to build. They use solid state convertors at each end. 500 kV
was the max for a while and I know the Canadians have a line in service
for at least 20 years that operates at 735 kV DC and I read that the
Chinese recently started construction of a 800 kV DC transmission line.

Prove it with simple Ohm's law. If it is HV, how heavy is the cable
gonna be?

So far as that goes, keep in mind that as the voltage increases, the
size of the conductors needed to carry the electricity decreases (that's
one reason long-distance transmission lines are HV). So you can either
increase the size of the conductors, or step the voltage up using
existing conductors.


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter.

- Attributed to Winston Churchill