On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:14:51 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:49:33 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:22:38 -0400, "Mike Payne"
wrote:

I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12. I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed.

That makes 2 of us. A friend tried to talk me into using #12 for
everything (as he'd done at his own place). When I told him that the
bulk of the long runs were one light per circuit, and that nearly all
of them would be 12W CFs, he started the "what about the next guy"
angle. Sheesh! If there's a next guy, and if he wants to use 150W
bulbs, and if he thinks that'll stress the #14, then too bad. :-)

Wayne

I have to disagree, I find the "workability" difference between 12 ga
and 14 ga virtually unnoticeable. 2 ga copper is a bit of a pain to deal
with, but much of anything below that is all the same to me.

I don't agree, but even if there was zero workability difference, that
wouldn't be a valid reason to spend even a nickel extra on a 12W
circuit, or any low-power circuit.

That would almost make sense if circuits always remained in the same
usage and with the same loads on them. When someone decides they need to
add something to the circuit or upgrade lighting things can change
dramatically and the 14ga circuit that was feeding the old circular
flouro in the kitchen may suddenly be feeding several halogen populated
cans and a pile of halogen under cabinet and soffit lighting in a
kitchen remodel.

Obviously one should take into account potential expansion, but that's
not a good reason to overdo *everything*. You're basically repeating
an extremely overused Usenet argument - "what about the next guy".
Doesn't make any sense in a lot of cases. For example, I have
something like 2 dozen pot lights, each on it's own circuit. If this
house ever has another owner, and they decide to add outlets into the
ceiling and plug in 100 times the wattage on some of those circuits...
But wait... isn't it just as likely that the next guy will end up in a
wheelchair? We should build ramps, etc.

The only half-way reasonable
argument I've heard for using 12 on low-power circuits is that it's
more forgiving of bad workmanship. But anyone who needs that crutch
shouldn't be doing electrical work anyway.

I've never hear that, and can't even fathom the (il)logic behind it.

You might do some simple experiments with #12 and #14 wire. Pretend
you're a novice, and nick the wire when you strip it. Wrap it around a
screw connection, and then bend it back and forth like a novice does
when he's learning why he shouldn't try to stuff 5' of wire in a 1'
box. :-) You'll find that the 14 breaks easier than the 12.


Lots of people (including me) waste money when they don't need to, but
we shouldn't encourage the newbs to do that. Ask any question on
Usenet, and far more people will tell you to overdo things than
underdo them. If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :-)

Perhaps, but I don't think the cost difference is that significant, even
with a complete home since you still can't use 14ga everywhere.

I probably used 1500 ft. of 14, and a lot less of everything else.
Everybody giving advice has something they think is worth "just a few
extra bucks", or "just a little extra work".

Wayne

On 9/25/2007 7:54 PM, wrote:


Obviously one should take into account potential expansion, but that's
not a good reason to overdo *everything*. You're basically repeating
an extremely overused Usenet argument - "what about the next guy".
Doesn't make any sense in a lot of cases. For example, I have
something like 2 dozen pot lights, each on it's own circuit. If this
house ever has another owner, and they decide to add outlets into the
ceiling and plug in 100 times the wattage on some of those circuits...
But wait... isn't it just as likely that the next guy will end up in a
wheelchair? We should build ramps, etc.


Wayne

What are you growing under those pot lights?
--
Ted
I wasn't born in Texas but
I got back here as soon as I could


Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati (When All Else Fails, Play Dead.)

on 9/25/2007 11:28 PM xPosTech said the following:
On 9/25/2007 7:54 PM, wrote:


Obviously one should take into account potential expansion, but that's
not a good reason to overdo *everything*. You're basically repeating
an extremely overused Usenet argument - "what about the next guy".
Doesn't make any sense in a lot of cases. For example, I have
something like 2 dozen pot lights, each on it's own circuit. If this
house ever has another owner, and they decide to add outlets into the
ceiling and plug in 100 times the wattage on some of those circuits...
But wait... isn't it just as likely that the next guy will end up in a
wheelchair? We should build ramps, etc.


Wayne

What are you growing under those pot lights?

Chia pets. :-)

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:14:51 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:49:33 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:22:38 -0400, "Mike Payne"
wrote:

I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12. I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed.

That makes 2 of us. A friend tried to talk me into using #12 for
everything (as he'd done at his own place). When I told him that the
bulk of the long runs were one light per circuit, and that nearly all
of them would be 12W CFs, he started the "what about the next guy"
angle. Sheesh! If there's a next guy, and if he wants to use 150W
bulbs, and if he thinks that'll stress the #14, then too bad. :-)

Wayne

I have to disagree, I find the "workability" difference between 12 ga
and 14 ga virtually unnoticeable. 2 ga copper is a bit of a pain to deal
with, but much of anything below that is all the same to me.

I don't agree, but even if there was zero workability difference, that
wouldn't be a valid reason to spend even a nickel extra on a 12W
circuit, or any low-power circuit.

That would almost make sense if circuits always remained in the same
usage and with the same loads on them. When someone decides they need to
add something to the circuit or upgrade lighting things can change
dramatically and the 14ga circuit that was feeding the old circular
flouro in the kitchen may suddenly be feeding several halogen populated
cans and a pile of halogen under cabinet and soffit lighting in a
kitchen remodel.

Obviously one should take into account potential expansion, but that's
not a good reason to overdo *everything*. You're basically repeating
an extremely overused Usenet argument - "what about the next guy".
Doesn't make any sense in a lot of cases. For example, I have
something like 2 dozen pot lights, each on it's own circuit. If this
house ever has another owner, and they decide to add outlets into the
ceiling and plug in 100 times the wattage on some of those circuits...
But wait... isn't it just as likely that the next guy will end up in a
wheelchair? We should build ramps, etc.

More typically, I'm the first guy, and a few years later, the next guy.
I'm just as likely to expand or add something as some future owner. As
for the ramp thing, there are plenty of folks pushing for all new
construction to include such things. I don't agree with them by a long
shot, but ramps do come in handy for us otherwise able bodied folks who
tend to move a lot of heavy stuff around.


The only half-way reasonable
argument I've heard for using 12 on low-power circuits is that it's
more forgiving of bad workmanship. But anyone who needs that crutch
shouldn't be doing electrical work anyway.

I've never hear that, and can't even fathom the (il)logic behind it.

You might do some simple experiments with #12 and #14 wire. Pretend
you're a novice, and nick the wire when you strip it. Wrap it around a
screw connection, and then bend it back and forth like a novice does
when he's learning why he shouldn't try to stuff 5' of wire in a 1'
box. :-) You'll find that the 14 breaks easier than the 12.

I don't have any 14 ga solid wire. Everything I do is 12 ga or larger.



Lots of people (including me) waste money when they don't need to, but
we shouldn't encourage the newbs to do that. Ask any question on
Usenet, and far more people will tell you to overdo things than
underdo them. If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :-)

Perhaps, but I don't think the cost difference is that significant, even
with a complete home since you still can't use 14ga everywhere.

I probably used 1500 ft. of 14, and a lot less of everything else.
Everybody giving advice has something they think is worth "just a few
extra bucks", or "just a little extra work".

If you used that much 14 ga, you presumably have a larger than average
house, a poorly located main panel, or other unusual configuration of
things.

That's not a problem with the solution, it's a problem with the
problem - and Joe Bozo is the problem - split circuit or not he's got
about a 90% chance of screwing something up.

I actually bought an old house and rewired it to my satisfaction, only
to find that the previous owner, a knowledgeable individual IMO, had
someone helping him (teenage son probly) who had wired outlets by pushing
the wires into the little slots instead of the holes on those cheap
push-in receptacles! I guess you'd call him Joe Bozo, Jr.

I've got a good one. I discovered, BEFORE I connected the power to the
breaker box, that someone connected the 220V water heater by using 2 15A
breakers. Really confused me when I had an extra breaker in the box.

I'd love to hear your explanation of how this will "blow stuff up."

It has a decent potential to "blow stuff up", when Joe Bozo homeowner
yanks on the vacuum cleaner cord, cracks the receptacle and goes to
replace it. Joe Bozo homeowner who has no business being in the box to
begin with and doesn't remember which wire went where.

If Joe Bozo homeowner doesn't have enough sense to turn the breaker off
before
he sets about replacing the receptacle, and doesn't pay any attention to
which
wires go where -- there are much larger problems than having an Edison
circuit
in the box.

I've seen some
pretty screwed up stuff like that and I see no good reason to add this
risk when simply installing a separate box and outlet for the $2.50 will
eliminate that risk.

That's just nonsense. Having only 120V present in the box does nothing to
eliminate the risk caused by homeowners who are stupid enough to work on
live
circuits without knowing what they're doing.

You're seeing the wrong problem here.

I wouldn't expect to need to flip two breakers to kill a single outlet. I'd
discover it because I check to see if the wires are hot after I flip a
breaker and before I start messing around with things. A multimeter, neon
tester or if all fails I short the wires I would rather have a shower of
sparks than get 'bitten'.

In article , "no spam" wrote:
I wouldn't expect to need to flip two breakers to kill a single outlet.

And you wouldn't need to, if the circuit was installed in compliance with the
NEC -- which *requires* a double-pole breaker if both legs are connected to
the same device.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:21:29 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


More typically, I'm the first guy, and a few years later, the next guy.
I'm just as likely to expand or add something as some future owner. As
for the ramp thing, there are plenty of folks pushing for all new
construction to include such things. I don't agree with them by a long
shot, but ramps do come in handy for us otherwise able bodied folks who
tend to move a lot of heavy stuff around.
But ramps are DEADLY for the able-bodies with freezing rain and other
such icy crap we get up here.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:21:29 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:14:51 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:49:33 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:


More typically, I'm the first guy, and a few years later, the next guy.
I'm just as likely to expand or add something as some future owner.

Are you saying that you don't have *any* low-power circuits that won't
ever be changed?

The only half-way reasonable
argument I've heard for using 12 on low-power circuits is that it's
more forgiving of bad workmanship. But anyone who needs that crutch
shouldn't be doing electrical work anyway.

I've never hear that, and can't even fathom the (il)logic behind it.

You might do some simple experiments with #12 and #14 wire. Pretend
you're a novice, and nick the wire when you strip it. Wrap it around a
screw connection, and then bend it back and forth like a novice does
when he's learning why he shouldn't try to stuff 5' of wire in a 1'
box. :-) You'll find that the 14 breaks easier than the 12.

I don't have any 14 ga solid wire. Everything I do is 12 ga or larger.

You shouldn't even need to do the experiment to know that the same
reason 14 is easier to handle makes it easier to break.

Perhaps, but I don't think the cost difference is that significant, even
with a complete home since you still can't use 14ga everywhere.

I probably used 1500 ft. of 14, and a lot less of everything else.
Everybody giving advice has something they think is worth "just a few
extra bucks", or "just a little extra work".

If you used that much 14 ga, you presumably have a larger than average
house,

2000 sq.ft, with an equal-sized attached shop. Everything on one
level. Lots of lighting circuits, all one light per circuit.
Highest-draw lighting fixtures are several rarely-used double
floodlights around the perimeter, 150W each.

a poorly located main panel,

Two centrally-located panels.

or other unusual configuration of
things.

It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're
fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make
sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on,
particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing,
but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll
have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper.
Anybody who can't think of something better to do with that week or
the income, should seek suggestions on Usenet. :-)

Wayne

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:21:29 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:14:51 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:49:33 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wrote:


More typically, I'm the first guy, and a few years later, the next guy.
I'm just as likely to expand or add something as some future owner.

Are you saying that you don't have *any* low-power circuits that won't
ever be changed?

The only half-way reasonable
argument I've heard for using 12 on low-power circuits is that it's
more forgiving of bad workmanship. But anyone who needs that crutch
shouldn't be doing electrical work anyway.

I've never hear that, and can't even fathom the (il)logic behind it.

You might do some simple experiments with #12 and #14 wire. Pretend
you're a novice, and nick the wire when you strip it. Wrap it around a
screw connection, and then bend it back and forth like a novice does
when he's learning why he shouldn't try to stuff 5' of wire in a 1'
box. :-) You'll find that the 14 breaks easier than the 12.

I don't have any 14 ga solid wire. Everything I do is 12 ga or larger.

You shouldn't even need to do the experiment to know that the same
reason 14 is easier to handle makes it easier to break.

Perhaps, but I don't think the cost difference is that significant, even
with a complete home since you still can't use 14ga everywhere.

I probably used 1500 ft. of 14, and a lot less of everything else.
Everybody giving advice has something they think is worth "just a few
extra bucks", or "just a little extra work".

If you used that much 14 ga, you presumably have a larger than average
house,

2000 sq.ft, with an equal-sized attached shop. Everything on one
level. Lots of lighting circuits, all one light per circuit.
Highest-draw lighting fixtures are several rarely-used double
floodlights around the perimeter, 150W each.

a poorly located main panel,

Two centrally-located panels.

or other unusual configuration of
things.

It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're
fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make
sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on,
particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing,
but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll
have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper.
Anybody who can't think of something better to do with that week or
the income, should seek suggestions on Usenet. :-)

Wayne

I'm confused. You have a separate circuit for every light? And you scoff
at people who waste copper? I must've misunderstood some part of this.

I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.

How do u tell if u have 15a outlets and/or breakers. Can u use a
multimeter to determine amperage?

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:09:03 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're
fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make
sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on,
particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing,
but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll
have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper.
Anybody who can't think of something better to do with that week or
the income, should seek suggestions on Usenet. :-)

Wayne

I'm confused. You have a separate circuit for every light? And you scoff
at people who waste copper? I must've misunderstood some part of this.

We live off-grid. That means we have to be frugal with electricity.
For example, at our last place (on-grid), the living room had five 75W
incandescent pot lights, all on one dimmer switch. Our present living
room has three 12W CF pot lights, each with it's own switch. The
breaker panels were located so that the heavy wire runs were short,
main panel runs to the welders and air compressor are only about 10'.
Subpanel runs to the kitchen are about 20'. Next largest load in the
house are the 700W 230V heat pumps. Triple runs (one for each
inverter) to the office and home theater areas. So, like many custom
homes, we did use a lot of wire, but it was mostly #14 which I bought
on sale for $13 per 250' roll (12 years ago). Floor plan here
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/main/floorplan.jpg. Main panel is
in the garage on the wall behind the car. Subpanel is in the living
room on the backside of the kitchen wall. BTW, the inverter that
serves most of the home theater stuff plus 3 computers, is only 500W.
It would have been a bit silly to divide that up into multiple runs of
#12. And all of those components would use the same power if they were
on-grid.

Wayne

According to Pete C. :
Chris Lewis wrote:

[Not counting builtin microwave either - that's supposed to be a dedicated
circuit, just like yours. Doesn't have to be 20A tho. Fridge, garburator,
dishwasher each a dedicated circuit too. With some minor permissible addons
(clocks etc). CEC is stricter on dedicated kitchen circuits than the NEC.
Or at least it was.]

It's not really a built in microwave, just a dedicated shelf space for a
regular one. Fridge is indeed another separate 20A circuit. Disposal and
dishwasher each share (separately) one of the 20A circuits feeding a
"quad".

They're required to be dedicated circuits here (DW officially, disposal
"usually"), and you can't share kitchen counter outlets with anything
else regardless.

The older "split receptacle" requirement was that you could put
at most two split duplex receptacles on a dual breaker, you
couldn't put the two split receptacles adjacent to each other on
a counter, and every kitchen had to have at least two splits.
Eg: on a short counter requiring two receptacles, they had to be
different dual circuits. I assume they're doing the same thing
with the new single 20A/GFCI version.

You can do the same trick with splits - remembering that the neutrals
on the split have to be split too (four current carrying conductors
into the box) - you have to split _both_ the neutral and hots on the line side
of the GFCI outlet pair. But that starts to get obnoxious. When the kitchen
gets reno'd, I _may_ splurge on dual GFCI breakers. And make 'em 20A while
I'm at it ;-) Same as your quads, but in just one receptacle ;-)

I like my quads, particularly with the fixed use items in my kitchen
that take up outlets - wall wart for cat water fountain dish, wall wart
for cordless phone base, and night light - there go three outlet spaces
right there.

That's what "hexes" are for ;-) [6-way receptacle blocks that
plug into a receptacle.]

They have the advantage of not being there if you don't need 'em. Most
(all?) are even compatible with split duplex receptacles - meaning
three outlets each on two circuits.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to clarence at snyder dot on dot ca:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:45:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , clarence at
snyder dot on dot ca wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:38:39 -0700, Roy Terry
wrote:

However, as the "Joe Blow" guy who messes with outlets occasionally,
I would be quite unhappily surprised to discover by accident that I
could get 220 between some wires on the same outlet. Yikes.

Why? If you have the breaker off like you're supposed to, the voltage between
all the wires will be -zero- regardless of how the circuit is wired.

It's no surprise anyway if you know what you are doing. 3 colours in
the box means their's 220 in there somewhere. Splits will have both
red and black "lives" plus the white "nuetral"

Not correct. Three colors in the box means there *might* be 240V in there
somewhere. It could also mean switched and unswitched 120V.
You are correct. But I stand by my statement - 220 is NO SURPRISE if
you have both a red and a black wire.

I'm going to suggest a slight rephrase:

220 SHOULD be no surprise if you have both a red and black wire.

If it is a surprise, you have no business futzing with wiring.

[In realith, 220 shouldn't be a surprise even if you only have
a black and white wire. Think 220-only circuits. Like electric
baseboards and perfectly legal practise of using ordinary wire,
rather than the somewhat less common black+red+ground/no white
wire.]
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.

How do u tell if u have 15a outlets and/or breakers. Can u use a
multimeter to determine amperage?

The breaker has the amperage stamped on it (usually the handle). The
breaker amps should NEVER (at least in most residential circumstances)
exceed the rating of the wire.

Wire usually has the wire size stamped on it, if it doesn't,
you can tell whether the conductors are 14ga (15A) or 12ga (20A)
simply by comparing it to a known piece of wire.

There's three kinds of outlets you might encounter:

1 The 20A kind you can't plug a 15A plug into (one blade is turned
90 degrees), and only accepts 20A plugs.
2 A different 20A kind has a "t-slot", which will accept both 20A
and 15A plugs.
3 Ordinary 15A outlets (that won't accept a "true" 20A plug). These
outlets are actually rated for 20A - you can draw a total of
20A from the receptacle (if the breaker will allow it), but no
more than 15A from either outlet. Which means you can install
these on 20A circuits, but the devices you plug into it are limited
to 15A plugs.

[In other words, all permissible to connect on a 20A circuit.]

In the US, where 20A general purpose receptacle circuits are legal,
most are wired with outlet (3) only. 20A plug devices are rare.
In those rare cases where it's likely that a true 20A device is
required, you use a T-slot receptacle (2). You won't see (1) on
general purpose circuits - they're primarily for dedicated 20A
appliances.

In Canada, until quite recently, general purpose 20A circuits were
essentially illegal, because (2) simply were never approved for sale.
The only 20A/120V circuits you see were for dedicated equipment,
usually direct-wire. As such, 120V/20A outlets (1) are extremely
rarely used. I've never seen one in residential wiring, only in
workshops and industrial situations for power tools.

I don't think I've ever seen a T-slot outlet in use in Canada, except
for a couple archeological finds that predate plugs with ground pins.
This'll change with the latest amendments to the CEC.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :

It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're
fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make
sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on,
particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing,
but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll
have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper.

Ectually, I'd consider putting two dozen single low-moderate wattage
fixtures on individual dedicated/homerunned 15A circuits to be a vastly
greater waste of money than picking 12ga over 14ga, but perhaps that's
just me.

You probably could have put all of the fixtures on a handful
of daisy-chained 15A circuits or even 12ga/20A circuits and
saved a heck of a lot more than picking 14ga over 12ga.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:09:03 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

I'm confused. You have a separate circuit for every light? And you scoff
at people who waste copper? I must've misunderstood some part of this.

We live off-grid. That means we have to be frugal with electricity.
For example, at our last place (on-grid), the living room had five 75W
incandescent pot lights, all on one dimmer switch. Our present living
room has three 12W CF pot lights, each with it's own switch.

That still doesn't mean that each CF pot has to have to have its own
circuit, _unless_ you plan on automated centralized control of
individual devices by the brute-force method of switching their circuits
on and off. Whether or not two fixtures are on the same or different
circuits is irrelevant to frugality. There are cheaper/more effective
ways of lamp control. Like the switches you have on each.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Friesen wrote:
wrote:

Splitting circuits is nice if you want lots of switched receptacles,
but it should be borne in mind that using 14/3, and running from
outlet to outlet, the boxes will need to be 20 cu in.

You sure? By my count that would be six wires and four caps, which
under local code would require a 15 cu in box.

Chris

CF:

Hmm...lemme check my work.

One 14/3 in - 3 allowances
One 14/3 out - 3 allowances
All grounds in box - 1 allowance
One device - 2 allowances
Internal cable clamps - 1 allowance

Total 10 x 2.00 cu in for 14 AWG = 20 cu in.

Or 18 if using something without internal
clamps, like nonmetallic single gang
new-work boxes. I tend to use 3 1/2"
deep metal boxes on old work, with
internal clamps, though if I have a really
DEEP wall (such as a baseboard outlet
over lath&plaster over /internal/ board
sheathing over full 2 x 4 studs) I may use
external clamps threaded into the box back.
I find external clamps to be otherwise
unwieldy in old work, and plastic boxes to
do a poorer job than metal at clamping
to lath & plaster, so I tend to favor schemes
that keep the volume = 18. On new work,
I tend to use Carlon Superblue deep boxes,
with 22 cu in, which allow the split receptacles
with either 14/3 or 12/3.

Now that I think of it, the lower volume needed
for a split circuit using 14/3 /does/ provide a
good argument for that wire size in general
lighting. I can't say the fatigue issue bothers
me a whole lot. People who nick their wire
are probably screwing up a lot of other things
as well; bad nicks seem to go with multiple
wires on 1 screw, backwards loops, and
cheesy drugstore wirenuts screwed on too
loosely. I also haven't seen as many cases
of too much wire stuffed in as too little, and
the wonderful practice of pulling in the cable
tight, cutting it off 4" past the KO, stripping
2" of jacket, and pushing it back as the
receptacle goes home,with no clamp, of
course. Ugh.

G P

wrote:

One 14/3 in - 3 allowances
One 14/3 out - 3 allowances
All grounds in box - 1 allowance
One device - 2 allowances
Internal cable clamps - 1 allowance

Total 10 x 2.00 cu in for 14 AWG = 20 cu in.

Ah...I think this is a CEC vs NEC difference. For us in Canada each #14
insulated conductor counts as 1.5 cu in, the device counts as two
insulated conductors. Pigtails, bare grounds, and cable clamps don't
count, but we have to count the number of insulated twist caps separately.

With one device, 6 insulated conductors and 4 insulated caps (one for
the ground) we're allowed to use a 15 cu in box.

Chris

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:07:06 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to :

It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're
fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make
sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on,
particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing,
but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll
have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper.

Ectually, I'd consider putting two dozen single low-moderate wattage
fixtures on individual dedicated/homerunned 15A circuits

You've jumped to a faulty conclusion.

to be a vastly
greater waste of money than picking 12ga over 14ga, but perhaps that's
just me.


Wayne

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:09:03 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're
fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make
sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on,
particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing,
but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll
have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper.
Anybody who can't think of something better to do with that week or
the income, should seek suggestions on Usenet. :-)

Wayne

I'm confused. You have a separate circuit for every light? And you scoff
at people who waste copper? I must've misunderstood some part of this.

We live off-grid. That means we have to be frugal with electricity.
For example, at our last place (on-grid), the living room had five 75W
incandescent pot lights, all on one dimmer switch. Our present living
room has three 12W CF pot lights, each with it's own switch. The
breaker panels were located so that the heavy wire runs were short,
main panel runs to the welders and air compressor are only about 10'.
Subpanel runs to the kitchen are about 20'. Next largest load in the
house are the 700W 230V heat pumps. Triple runs (one for each
inverter) to the office and home theater areas. So, like many custom
homes, we did use a lot of wire, but it was mostly #14 which I bought
on sale for $13 per 250' roll (12 years ago). Floor plan here
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/main/floorplan.jpg. Main panel is
in the garage on the wall behind the car. Subpanel is in the living
room on the backside of the kitchen wall. BTW, the inverter that
serves most of the home theater stuff plus 3 computers, is only 500W.
It would have been a bit silly to divide that up into multiple runs of
#12. And all of those components would use the same power if they were
on-grid.

Wayne

Looks good. But, a light switch and a circuit are two different things.
Are you building the plane, too, or is that store bought?

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:41:04 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:



Looks good. But, a light switch and a circuit are two different things.

Sheesh.

Are you building the plane, too, or is that store bought?

http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/16airplane_stuff.htm
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/18more_photos.htm

Wayne

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:41:04 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:



Looks good. But, a light switch and a circuit are two different things.

Sheesh.

Are you building the plane, too, or is that store bought?

http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/16airplane_stuff.htm
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/18more_photos.htm

Wayne

10%? Holy cow, batman. You *are* going to build up some strong sphincter
muscles. Hmm, a dirt strip for a Glasair. How well do those tundra tires
fit in the wheel wells?

I just got back from Home Depot with 100ft 10/3, a sub breaker panel w/
breakers installed, 240/30a wall outlet. $255. Copper has indeed
gotten expensive. I cant imagine the bill if I also had to tack on
labor from a professional.


Duane C. Johnson wrote:
Hi mdb;

mdb wrote:

I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty
fundamental question about the Romex cable I'll be
running throughout the space for lights and wall
jacks.

I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel
(150 amps) replaced with a new Cutler Hammer 200
amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work
for me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp
circuits (14-2 Romex). Is there a reason not to
simply make all three of the circuits I'll be
creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits,
using 12-2 Romex?

I concur with the others. I would, and have, used
12-2 Romex 20A circuits on my circuits.
(Well, possibly with the exception of the lighting
circuits which will most likely be low current.)

Or is there a fire/shock hazard caused by using
the higher amperage circuit breakers on those
standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on
which it is located or do I need to install more?

Yes, the circuit breaker types do protect the entire
circuit. As do the receptacle types if wired that way.

My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when
the outside drains are blocked.

All the better to use GFIs.

Several recomendations:
1. Install larger boxes than the minimum standard
code recommends. They are roomier and easier to
work with.
2. Install double or triple the number of outlets
per wall than the minimum standard code
recommends. You can thank me in the future.
3. Use the $1.50 or $2.00 receptacles instead of the
cheap $.49 types. They are much better built and
sturdier.
4. Don't use the simple push in terminals on the
receptacles, use the old fashion screw terminals.
The contact resistance is lower, I have measured
this. OK, they do pass the UL code, but lower
resistance has to be better.

Have fun!

Duane

"Kaz" wrote in message
news:tVsZi.1372$VB6.1068@trnddc06...
I just got back from Home Depot with 100ft 10/3, a sub breaker panel w/
breakers installed, 240/30a wall outlet. $255. Copper has indeed gotten
expensive. I cant imagine the bill if I also had to tack on labor from a
professional.

A pro would have worked faster than you, but he'd be charging $75 an hour or
so.

mdb wrote:

I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.


Hi,
It all depends. If you have long run of wires, 12 gauge will help
minimizing voltage drop and also you can put little hevier load on it.
Other than that, it's your call. It's your house, it's your work.
I have some 20A circuits for long run with more often used outlets.
Others are all 15A circuits. But on 220V application, I even use 6
gauge wires down to 12 gauge.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news

"Kaz" wrote in message
news:tVsZi.1372$VB6.1068@trnddc06...
I just got back from Home Depot with 100ft 10/3, a sub breaker panel w/
breakers installed, 240/30a wall outlet. $255. Copper has indeed gotten
expensive. I cant imagine the bill if I also had to tack on labor from a
professional.

A pro would have worked faster than you, but he'd be charging $75 an hour
or so.
And someone else would be accountable for any errors made during
installation. That's a biggee these days; at least in the Litigious States
of America.....

Is it possible to make errors in home wiring?

Jim wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news And someone else would be accountable for any errors made during
installation. That's a biggee these days; at least in the Litigious States
of America.....

"Kaz" wrote in message
news:zy1_i.9679$jH2.8331@trnddc01...
Is it possible to make errors in home wiring?

Jim wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news And someone else would be accountable for any errors made during
installation. That's a biggee these days; at least in the Litigious
States of America.....

Yes it is. When I moved in this apartment I found an outlet that had a
jumper wire from the neutral terminal to the ground terminal to make it look
like it was grounded to one of those little testers with the three lights.
The problem was that the circuit was also reverse polarity so the ground
slot was "hot".

Tony Hwang posted for all of us...

mdb wrote:

I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.


Hi,
It all depends. If you have long run of wires, 12 gauge will help
minimizing voltage drop and also you can put little hevier load on it.
Other than that, it's your call. It's your house, it's your work.
I have some 20A circuits for long run with more often used outlets.
Others are all 15A circuits. But on 220V application, I even use 6
gauge wires down to 12 gauge.

Who cares hung low?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

On Sep 25, 7:39 am, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to clarence at snyder dot on dot ca:

Not "hinkey" Required by code in kitchen countertop applications in
Canada. The breakoff tabs are there for that purpose. You remove them.

As mentioned elsewhere, recent code in Canada now gives you
a choice: split outlets or US-style 20A counter outlets. Thing
is that they now must be GFCI, and with splits it's real expensive
(requires a double GFCI breaker), so I imagine most new homes are
going US-style with GFCI.

Also, to be anally correct, the breakoff tabs are not just for
split (multiwire) outlets, but for switched/unswitched halves.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

My understanding is that Canada requires GFCI protection only within
1m of a sink, and that all other kitchen outlets can be non-GFCI,
either the traditional splits (in 15 or 20A) or 20A t-slot non-
splits...that's based on the latest P.S.Knight book. Am I reading that
wrong?

Chip C
Toronto

According to Chip C :

My understanding is that Canada requires GFCI protection only within
1m of a sink, and that all other kitchen outlets can be non-GFCI,
either the traditional splits (in 15 or 20A) or 20A t-slot non-
splits...that's based on the latest P.S.Knight book. Am I reading that
wrong?

I'd have to double check. But considering the speed in which
the US NEC went from a similar rule to "all counter outlets", I
wouldn't expect it to stay that way long here.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Daniel Who Wants to Know" writes:

Yes it is. When I moved in this apartment I found an outlet that had a
jumper wire from the neutral terminal to the ground terminal to make it look
like it was grounded to one of those little testers with the three lights.
The problem was that the circuit was also reverse polarity so the ground
slot was "hot".

Wow. Talk about making a bad situation worse...

A place I used to live in had a once-unfinished basement turned into a
somewhat-finished one, obviously by one of the previous owners. About
half of the outlets had hot and neutral reversed, so the people who did
the work apparently didn't know what the silver and brass screws on the
outlets were trying to tell them. But at least they got the grounds
right.

Dave

Must have been an NCR trained maintenance guy.

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
"Daniel Who Wants to Know"
writes:

Yes it is. When I moved in this apartment I found an outlet that
had a
jumper wire from the neutral terminal to the ground terminal to make
it look
like it was grounded to one of those little testers with the three
lights.
The problem was that the circuit was also reverse polarity so the
ground
slot was "hot".

Wow. Talk about making a bad situation worse...

A place I used to live in had a once-unfinished basement turned into
a
somewhat-finished one, obviously by one of the previous owners.
About
half of the outlets had hot and neutral reversed, so the people who
did
the work apparently didn't know what the silver and brass screws on
the
outlets were trying to tell them. But at least they got the grounds
right.

Dave

"Solar Flare" wrote in message
.. .
Must have been an NCR trained maintenance guy.

"Earn your Certificate in just Six Short Days!"



"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
"Daniel Who Wants to Know" writes:

Yes it is. When I moved in this apartment I found an outlet that had a
jumper wire from the neutral terminal to the ground terminal to make it
look
like it was grounded to one of those little testers with the three
lights.
The problem was that the circuit was also reverse polarity so the ground
slot was "hot".

Wow. Talk about making a bad situation worse...

A place I used to live in had a once-unfinished basement turned into a
somewhat-finished one, obviously by one of the previous owners. About
half of the outlets had hot and neutral reversed, so the people who did
the work apparently didn't know what the silver and brass screws on the
outlets were trying to tell them. But at least they got the grounds
right.

Dave