clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:58:06 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Pete C." wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Pete C."
wrote:

Doing that will also put the two outlets on opposite poles / phases,
giving 240V between the upper and lower hot connections.

So?

I'm not sure
how that works with the ratings of the break off tabs on a duplex
receptacle. At any rate a hinky solution at best.

You're not sure how it works, but you're sure it's a "hinky solution." :-)

Actually, it's a perfectly fine solution.

It's hinky in my book, and I wouldn't wire it that way.

Fine, don't wire it that way -- but don't tell others it's a bad solution,
just because you don't like/understand it.

I understand it, and I recommend against using it in a residential
environment for a good reason.



The truly correct solution is to just install more circuits in locations
that need them. Basically instead of the all too common situation of
every receptacle in a room being on a single 15A or 20A they should be
individual circuits or at least two circuits alternated so any given
location is within reach of both circuits.

How is having two circuits available at alternating receptacles any
improvement over having two circuits available at *every* receptacle?

It avoids having 240V on a device where most people expect only 120V.

So how, exactly, is that an issue? You can't plug a *single* device into both
sockets of a duplex receptacle at once. Each socket has only 120V; that there
is a 240V potential between the two hots is of no relevance whatever.

It has plenty of relevance. See below.


I'm fine with cycling through poles / phases box to box, but I don't
like it within a single box in a residential application where joe bozo
might mess with it. People blow things up with some regularity in
industrial environments with three phase "wild leg" delta service, and
in an industrial environment they're supposed to have a clue. Give joe
bozo homeowner an unexpected red wire in the box and he's likely to blow
stuff up too. I think it's an unnecessary risk in a residential
environment.

I'd love to hear your explanation of how this will "blow stuff up."

It has a decent potential to "blow stuff up", when Joe Bozo homeowner
yanks on the vacuum cleaner cord, cracks the receptacle and goes to
replace it. Joe Bozo homeowner who has no business being in the box to
begin with and doesn't remember which wire went where. I've seen some
pretty screwed up stuff like that and I see no good reason to add this
risk when simply installing a separate box and outlet for the $2.50 will
eliminate that risk.

That's not a problem with the solution, it's a problem with the
problem - and Joe Bozo is the problem - split circuit or not he's got
about a 90% chance of screwing something up.

More voltage = more spectacular screw up.

In article ,
wrote:

If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :-)

Wayne

I know a guy who started building his own house twenty years ago. He had
the land, and $100,000 to start with. He figured the hardest part was
the foundation, so he figured he'd contract that out and do most of the
rest himself. The quote on the foundation came to $100,000. So he jumped
in with both feet and learned how to do a foundation. He's pretty much
done with the place now, but the finishing touches do seem to go on
forever.

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:22:38 -0400, "Mike Payne"
wrote:

I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12. I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed. Most radios,
TV's , and computers use less power today than even a decade ago. When was
the last time you tripped a 15 A circuit breaker by overloading it?


I always use #14 for all lighting, and #12 for all outlets, and the
associated proper breaker. You dont need 20A for lights, except
possibly in industrial applications. Just keep the lights together,
in other words, dont mix lights and outlets, with the possible
exception of closets, where one might add an outlet for occasional use
to the lighting circuit, or maybe the same in an unfinished attic.

One reason that I learned from an electrician many years ago, was that
light bulbs occasionally short internally when they burn out. A 15A
breaker will trip faster, so those bulb incidents are less dramatic
and less chance of shattering the glass.

I just rewired a barn for a friend. He did not want to change the old
fuse box. He's retired from farming and dont have livestock anymore,
but his light fixtures were all nasty and corroded, and half of them
no longer worked. He also had an outlet that had gotten a bolt of
lightning and was all charred and being held together with electrical
tape. The lighting wires themselves were all still good because they
were #12 UF cable. The only problem was this was the UF without
ground. But at 30 to 40 feet off the floor, we decided that as long
as the lights were porcelain in plastic boxes, there was no real need
to a ground wire, as this wire was "grandfathered in". However, we
replaced all the wires for the outlets. Even though the lighting
wires were #12, I installed a 15A fuse. There are only five lights w/
100W bulbs. No sense using a 20A, and as I said earlier, if a bulb
shorts, it is less likely to shatter the glass. Particularly in a barn
where there is hay and stuff like that. (he still bales and sells
hay).

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:42:26 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:22:38 -0400, "Mike Payne"
wrote:

I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12. I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed.

That makes 2 of us. A friend tried to talk me into using #12 for
everything (as he'd done at his own place). When I told him that the
bulk of the long runs were one light per circuit, and that nearly all
of them would be 12W CFs, he started the "what about the next guy"
angle. Sheesh! If there's a next guy, and if he wants to use 150W
bulbs, and if he thinks that'll stress the #14, then too bad. :-)

Wayne

I forgot to mention. When putting an outlet for a sump pump or other
dedicated circuit with a smaller motor, ALWAYS use a 15A breaker. If
that pump siezes or gets stuck from debris in the impeller, you want
that breaker to blow before the motor goes up in smoke.

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:32:53 -0500, "DanG" wrote:

Just about all the electricians I know and work with use the hole
in the side of stripper that is made for making the loop that fits
on the terminal screw. Insert tip of stripped copper - fold it
over the side of the cutter - install on screw. The tips of the
strippers can be used to close the loop tight.
http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=test&greenlee_category_id=100& Submit=Find&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTem plate&upc_number=31889


I have one just like that, but a different manufacturer.

Which holes are you talking about? I never knew there was a hole for
that purpose. I still use a needle nose to make a hook. Of course it
takes me only seconds to do it, but if there is an easier way, I'd
like to know.

Thanks

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:42:26 GMT, wrote:
I forgot to mention. When putting an outlet for a sump pump or other
dedicated circuit with a smaller motor, ALWAYS use a 15A breaker. If
that pump siezes or gets stuck from debris in the impeller, you want
that breaker to blow before the motor goes up in smoke.

Just to clarify, you can certainly use a 15 Amp (or even smaller breaker) if
you wish but the motor will likely start up better on #12 conductors than on #14
because there will be less voltage drop and therefore more starting current
available. Further, the motor should really have its own protection.

Vaughn

On Sep 25, 2:26?am, wrote:
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:32:53 -0500, "DanG" wrote:
Just about all the electricians I know and work with use the hole
in the side of stripper that is made for making the loop that fits
on the terminal screw. Insert tip of stripped copper - fold it
over the side of the cutter - install on screw. The tips of the
strippers can be used to close the loop tight.
http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=test&greenlee_...

I have one just like that, but a different manufacturer.

Which holes are you talking about? I never knew there was a hole for
that purpose. I still use a needle nose to make a hook. Of course it
takes me only seconds to do it, but if there is an easier way, I'd
like to know.

Thanks

If you ask me all light duty lamps and extension cords should be fused
for safety sake.

One time I had a customer in a mall using a light gauge non grounded
extension cord for a 1500W machine that had a tendency to burn wires
off shorting to the case.

well I serviced the machine and noted the unsafe condition saying you
need a air conditioner extension cord.

my next visit not only had they not changed the extension, they
advanced to stapling it to a carpeted wall it was hot.

Well I serviced the machine left it to heat and went shopping buying
them a AC extension cord. Came back swapped cords and cut their white
ligt cord one into pieces so it didnt get reused.

they were very mad, and said you cant charge us for that cord.

my reply no its a gift so no one gets shocked or causes a fire burning
down the mall the paperwork would cost a fortune.

I lost the customer they were ****ed but at least I knew it was safe
when I left and I would do the exact same thing today!.........

no doubt if someone got shocked I would get sued and the machine was
in a place customers had access too, the entire outside of the unit a
nice metal

In article , clarence at snyder dot on dot ca wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:38:39 -0700, Roy Terry
wrote:

However, as the "Joe Blow" guy who messes with outlets occasionally,
I would be quite unhappily surprised to discover by accident that I
could get 220 between some wires on the same outlet. Yikes.

Why? If you have the breaker off like you're supposed to, the voltage between
all the wires will be -zero- regardless of how the circuit is wired.

It's no surprise anyway if you know what you are doing. 3 colours in
the box means their's 220 in there somewhere. Splits will have both
red and black "lives" plus the white "nuetral"

Not correct. Three colors in the box means there *might* be 240V in there
somewhere. It could also mean switched and unswitched 120V.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Pete C." wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

I'd love to hear your explanation of how this will "blow stuff up."

It has a decent potential to "blow stuff up", when Joe Bozo homeowner
yanks on the vacuum cleaner cord, cracks the receptacle and goes to
replace it. Joe Bozo homeowner who has no business being in the box to
begin with and doesn't remember which wire went where.

If Joe Bozo homeowner doesn't have enough sense to turn the breaker off before
he sets about replacing the receptacle, and doesn't pay any attention to which
wires go where -- there are much larger problems than having an Edison circuit
in the box.

I've seen some
pretty screwed up stuff like that and I see no good reason to add this
risk when simply installing a separate box and outlet for the $2.50 will
eliminate that risk.

That's just nonsense. Having only 120V present in the box does nothing to
eliminate the risk caused by homeowners who are stupid enough to work on live
circuits without knowing what they're doing.

You're seeing the wrong problem here.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sep 23, 8:22 pm, "Mike Payne" wrote:
I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12.


Do you understand what an order of magnitude is? An order of
magnitude is a factor of 10. Two orders of magnitude is 100X. So,
you're telling us it's at least 100 times more difficult to run 12
gauge than 14? A job that would take an hour, now takes 100
hours?





I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed. Most radios,
TV's , and computers use less power today than even a decade ago. When was
the last time you tripped a 15 A circuit breaker by overloading it?

mike

"mdb" wrote in message

newsWxJi.584$9r4.364@trnddc04...



I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about
the romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall
jacks. I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced
with a new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that
work for me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2
romex). Is there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits
I'll be creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex?
Or is there a fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage
circuit breakers on those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do
I need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when
the outside drains are blocked.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

According to Pete C. :
Chris Friesen wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Doing that will also put the two outlets on opposite poles / phases,
giving 240V between the upper and lower hot connections. I'm not sure
how that works with the ratings of the break off tabs on a duplex
receptacle. At any rate a hinky solution at best.

No, this is not a hinky solution. It's called a splitwire or multiwire
circuit, and has been the standard for kitchen counter receptacles in
Canada for decades.

I'm sure the world will get right on adopting those superior Canadian
electrical standards...

CSA is superior to UL... There's quite a bit of cross-pollination
between the two standards.

The US _used_ to have multi-wire kitchen counter outlets.

Having 30A worth of 120V at every counter receptacle is better than
20A.

However, now that we're going to requiring GFCIs for kitchen counter
outlets, split-wire GFCI outlets are non-existant, and double GFCI
breakers very expensive, we're switching to the US 20A GFCI standard.
But split-wire kitchen counter outlets are sitll perfectly
legal if you don't mind paying for double GFCI breakers.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to clarence at snyder dot on dot ca:

Not "hinkey" Required by code in kitchen countertop applications in
Canada. The breakoff tabs are there for that purpose. You remove them.

As mentioned elsewhere, recent code in Canada now gives you
a choice: split outlets or US-style 20A counter outlets. Thing
is that they now must be GFCI, and with splits it's real expensive
(requires a double GFCI breaker), so I imagine most new homes are
going US-style with GFCI.

Also, to be anally correct, the breakoff tabs are not just for
split (multiwire) outlets, but for switched/unswitched halves.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
That's not a problem with the solution, it's a problem with the
problem - and Joe Bozo is the problem - split circuit or not he's got
about a 90% chance of screwing something up.

I actually bought an old house and rewired it to my satisfaction, only
to find that the previous owner, a knowledgeable individual IMO, had someone
helping him (teenage son probly) who had wired outlets by pushing the wires
into the little slots instead of the holes on those cheap push-in
receptacles! I guess you'd call him Joe Bozo, Jr.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
wrote:

If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :-)

Wayne

I know a guy who started building his own house twenty years ago. He had
the land, and $100,000 to start with. He figured the hardest part was
the foundation, so he figured he'd contract that out and do most of the
rest himself. The quote on the foundation came to $100,000. So he jumped
in with both feet and learned how to do a foundation. He's pretty much
done with the place now, but the finishing touches do seem to go on
forever.

House around the corner from me is the =most= gorgeous log cabin, custom
built, stone and wood everywhere....
Genius owner/builder forgot to check to see if it lies in a flood plain
b4 building; county refuses to issue an occupancy permit because it =does=.
No one will =ever= live in that house!

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Sep 23, 8:22 pm, "Mike Payne" wrote:
I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude
easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12.


Do you understand what an order of magnitude is?

Musta went to public school...

An order of
magnitude is a factor of 10. Two orders of magnitude is 100X. So,
you're telling us it's at least 100 times more difficult to run 12
gauge than 14? A job that would take an hour, now takes 100
hours?





I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed. Most
radios,
TV's , and computers use less power today than even a decade ago. When
was
the last time you tripped a 15 A circuit breaker by overloading it?

mike

"mdb" wrote in message

newsWxJi.584$9r4.364@trnddc04...



I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about
the romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and
wall
jacks. I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps)
replaced
with a new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do
that
work for me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2
romex). Is there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits
I'll be creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2
romex?
Or is there a fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage
circuit breakers on those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or
do
I need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet
when
the outside drains are blocked.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sep 25, 9:31?am, "Jim" wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message

news




In article ,
wrote:

If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :-)

Wayne

I know a guy who started building his own house twenty years ago. He had
the land, and $100,000 to start with. He figured the hardest part was
the foundation, so he figured he'd contract that out and do most of the
rest himself. The quote on the foundation came to $100,000. So he jumped
in with both feet and learned how to do a foundation. He's pretty much
done with the place now, but the finishing touches do seem to go on
forever.

House around the corner from me is the =most= gorgeous log cabin, custom
built, stone and wood everywhere....
Genius owner/builder forgot to check to see if it lies in a flood plain
b4 building; county refuses to issue an occupancy permit because it =does=.
No one will =ever= live in that house!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

time to call a house mover.....

theres a home near here built over 20 years ago without a permit, no
one lives in it either.

its a expensive storage bin from casual looking in windows as we drive
by

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Pete C. :
Chris Friesen wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Doing that will also put the two outlets on opposite poles / phases,
giving 240V between the upper and lower hot connections. I'm not sure
how that works with the ratings of the break off tabs on a duplex
receptacle. At any rate a hinky solution at best.

No, this is not a hinky solution. It's called a splitwire or multiwire
circuit, and has been the standard for kitchen counter receptacles in
Canada for decades.

I'm sure the world will get right on adopting those superior Canadian
electrical standards...

CSA is superior to UL... There's quite a bit of cross-pollination
between the two standards.

The US _used_ to have multi-wire kitchen counter outlets.

Having 30A worth of 120V at every counter receptacle is better than
20A.

Not really, since there aren't any consumer countertop appliances that
draw more than 15A. I much prefer having more outlets available as in
"quads" and multiple circuits to each quad. My current kitchen has four
such "quads", and each is a separate 20A circuit, so I have 80A
available to my countertops, and that doesn't count a built in microwave
outlet that is on a 20A circuit shared only with the light / vent hood
over the stove.


However, now that we're going to requiring GFCIs for kitchen counter
outlets, split-wire GFCI outlets are non-existant, and double GFCI
breakers very expensive, we're switching to the US 20A GFCI standard.
But split-wire kitchen counter outlets are sitll perfectly
legal if you don't mind paying for double GFCI breakers.

The high cost of GFCI breakers is a problem. I actually saw one
installation where a guy installed a bank of GFCI receptacles right
beside the main panel as the first device on each 120V circuit to
provide the functionality of GFCI breakers. Looked funky, but probably
saved him a couple hundred dollars.

Jim wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
That's not a problem with the solution, it's a problem with the
problem - and Joe Bozo is the problem - split circuit or not he's got
about a 90% chance of screwing something up.

I actually bought an old house and rewired it to my satisfaction, only
to find that the previous owner, a knowledgeable individual IMO, had someone
helping him (teenage son probly) who had wired outlets by pushing the wires
into the little slots instead of the holes on those cheap push-in
receptacles! I guess you'd call him Joe Bozo, Jr.

That's probably better actually. It wouldn't have the sharp edge to keep
the wire from pulling out, but it would have better contact pressure
over a larger contact area.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 25, 9:31?am, "Jim" wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message

news




In article ,
wrote:

If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :-)

Wayne

I know a guy who started building his own house twenty years ago. He
had
the land, and $100,000 to start with. He figured the hardest part was
the foundation, so he figured he'd contract that out and do most of the
rest himself. The quote on the foundation came to $100,000. So he
jumped
in with both feet and learned how to do a foundation. He's pretty much
done with the place now, but the finishing touches do seem to go on
forever.

House around the corner from me is the =most= gorgeous log cabin,
custom
built, stone and wood everywhere....
Genius owner/builder forgot to check to see if it lies in a flood
plain
b4 building; county refuses to issue an occupancy permit because it
=does=.
No one will =ever= live in that house!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

time to call a house mover.....

It's built w/a full basement. It would require =very= elaborate
moving/elevating. I'd do it myself, but don't have the moolah. It is
stunningly beautiful....


theres a home near here built over 20 years ago without a permit, no
one lives in it either.

its a expensive storage bin from casual looking in windows as we drive
by

In article ,
"Jim" wrote:

It's built w/a full basement. It would require =very= elaborate
moving/elevating. I'd do it myself, but don't have the moolah. It is
stunningly beautiful....

What a shame. Maybe he could sell it on ebay. If it's that nice, someone
might pay to have it moved.

Jim wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 25, 9:31?am, "Jim" wrote:
....
House around the corner from me is the =most= gorgeous log cabin,
custom built, stone and wood everywhere....
Genius owner/builder forgot to check to see if it lies in a flood
plain b4 building; county refuses to issue an occupancy permit because it
=does=.
....
time to call a house mover.....

It's built w/a full basement. It would require =very= elaborate
moving/elevating. ...

No real fundamental difference between moving a house off a basement
foundation as other -- in some ways it's simpler as there's much easier
access to underneath.

Does seem like a basic foo-pah by the owner/builder. One wonders...

Seems like eventually that guy would do it on his own and salvage at
least something from his investment so far...

--

sounds hoaky. why did they give him a building permit? And if you come
back with "no building permit required", then there's no occupancy permit
required.

s


"Jim" wrote in message
...
House around the corner from me is the =most= gorgeous log cabin,
custom
built, stone and wood everywhere....
Genius owner/builder forgot to check to see if it lies in a flood plain
b4 building; county refuses to issue an occupancy permit because it
=does=. No one will =ever= live in that house!

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
20A circuits have a convenience factor with the ability to delivery a
considerable greater amount of power to a given situation. A typical
example today would be a home office with multiple monitors, printers,
computers and accessories in addition to whatever other routine loads
(vacuum cleaners, electric heaters, etc.) are placed on the circuit.

The CORRECT solution to this situation is a split 15 amp circuit.
15 amps to the top outlet, 15 to the bottom. Done by using 14/3 cable
and double breakers. The legal way is a "tied breaker" which means if
you blow one, it trips the other as well. This is to prevent half of
the box being live.
Untied breakers are often used for this reason.

c:

Splitting circuits is nice if you want lots of switched receptacles,
but
it should be borne in mind that using 14/3, and running from outlet to
outlet,
the boxes will need to be 20 cu in. We will also be dealing with a
multiwire circuit, which does save power and material cost, but adds
its
own set of problems if the neutral goes bad (which shouldn't happen if
the job is done right, but the point is that the potential is there.
240v
potential, that is. )

Another point is that a tied breaker is desirable for safety, but
takes away
one advantage of wiring a room with more than one circuit. You can't
shut down / trip one without going dark, unless you add yet another.

I wouldn't say there's one "CORRECT" solution, but a large set of
correct solutions that may be evaluated for any given case. Every
solution has its advantages and drawbacks.


14 AWG /is/ easier to work with. It's not a huge difference, but it's
noticeable. It also saves copper, and costs less. These things add
up. I use it when I can.

I'd advise the OP to go with 20A circuits for the basement, for the
same reason as the Code requires 20A small appliance circuits. One
might want a workshop down there some day. On the other hand,
there's no reason not to use 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit if the
particular use doesn't require 20A.

wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:14:52 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

I actually saw one
installation where a guy installed a bank of GFCI receptacles right
beside the main panel as the first device on each 120V circuit to
provide the functionality of GFCI breakers. Looked funky, but probably
saved him a couple hundred dollars.

That won't work for the kitchen or bathrooms ("no other ouitlets")

He could use the receptacle format receptacle-less GFCIs, which are also
much cheaper than GFCI breakers.

wrote in message
ps.com...
Do you understand what an order of magnitude is?

t4:

A double cheeseburger, a basket of chili fries, coleslaw, and three
cups of strong black coffee. Not only does this order have magnitude,
it has direction. I will spare you the gruesome details. Let's just
say
that 1.6 gallons just won't always do.

Aaaanyway, there's nothing wrong with Edison circuits if they're not
stupid. Stupid, for instance, would be an Edison circuit that splits
10 feet from the panel. Well, we're not going to save much power or
material there, but we do keep the potential for 240v across the
light bulbs if somebody didn't screw down that crummy drugstore
wirenut real good,so there is a bright side, a flash of genius, even.

The advantages of a multiwire or Edison circuit, for those who might
want to know, include material cost and energy savings from less
voltage drop. I see no reason to avoid them, where conditions are
favorable.

There is really nothing stopping any homeowner who really wants
to do his electrical work right from going out and learning about all
the different legitimate arrangements one might find in an
electrical box. I suggest PRACTICAL ELECTRICAL WIRING as
a start. One should not wire with nothing more than "white wire,
black wire" to go by.

Cordially yours:
G P

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:14:52 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

I actually saw one
installation where a guy installed a bank of GFCI receptacles right
beside the main panel as the first device on each 120V circuit to
provide the functionality of GFCI breakers. Looked funky, but probably
saved him a couple hundred dollars.

That won't work for the kitchen or bathrooms ("no other ouitlets")

He could use the receptacle format receptacle-less GFCIs, which are also
much cheaper than GFCI breakers.

PC:

That would look extremely icky.

G P

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:14:52 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

I actually saw one
installation where a guy installed a bank of GFCI receptacles right
beside the main panel as the first device on each 120V circuit to
provide the functionality of GFCI breakers. Looked funky, but probably
saved him a couple hundred dollars.

That won't work for the kitchen or bathrooms ("no other ouitlets")

He could use the receptacle format receptacle-less GFCIs, which are also
much cheaper than GFCI breakers.

PC:

That would look extremely icky.

G P

Icky yes, but still could save a fair amount of money. If GFCI breakers
were the ~$10 more than regular breakers that they logically should be,
then it wouldn't be an issue.

wrote:

There is really nothing stopping any homeowner who really wants
to do his electrical work right from going out and learning about all
the different legitimate arrangements one might find in an
electrical box. I suggest PRACTICAL ELECTRICAL WIRING as
a start. One should not wire with nothing more than "white wire,
black wire" to go by.

Yep, plenty of adequate reference material available at the Depot /
Lowe's book section as well as *gasp* your local library. Pretty much
any of those books would even explain how to properly wire a "4-way"
switch arrangement (yes, 4).

wrote:

Splitting circuits is nice if you want lots of switched receptacles,
but it should be borne in mind that using 14/3, and running from
outlet to outlet, the boxes will need to be 20 cu in.

You sure? By my count that would be six wires and four caps, which
under local code would require a 15 cu in box.

Chris

wrote:
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:32:53 -0500, "DanG" wrote:

Just about all the electricians I know and work with use the hole
in the side of stripper that is made for making the loop that fits
on the terminal screw. Insert tip of stripped copper - fold it
over the side of the cutter - install on screw. The tips of the
strippers can be used to close the loop tight.
http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?p_search=test&greenlee_category_id=100& Submit=Find&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTem plate&upc_number=31889


I have one just like that, but a different manufacturer.

Which holes are you talking about? I never knew there was a hole for
that purpose. I still use a needle nose to make a hook. Of course it
takes me only seconds to do it, but if there is an easier way, I'd
like to know.


I don't see the hole clearly in the jpg.
Along the edge of many strippers is a hole that does not seem to have a
purpose. Put the tip of the wire in the hole and twist. As Dan said -
very fast.

--
bud--

Abolutely I understand the concept of order of magnitude. When I was doing
my wiring I found it an orders of magnitude easier to use 14 rather than 12.
I didn't say faster, I said easier.

mike


wrote in message
ps.com...
On Sep 23, 8:22 pm, "Mike Payne" wrote:
I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude
easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12.


Do you understand what an order of magnitude is? An order of
magnitude is a factor of 10. Two orders of magnitude is 100X. So,
you're telling us it's at least 100 times more difficult to run 12
gauge than 14? A job that would take an hour, now takes 100
hours?





I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed. Most
radios,
TV's , and computers use less power today than even a decade ago. When
was
the last time you tripped a 15 A circuit breaker by overloading it?

mike

"mdb" wrote in message

newsWxJi.584$9r4.364@trnddc04...



I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about
the romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and
wall
jacks. I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps)
replaced
with a new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do
that
work for me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2
romex). Is there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits
I'll be creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2
romex?
Or is there a fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage
circuit breakers on those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or
do
I need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet
when
the outside drains are blocked.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Jim" wrote:

It's built w/a full basement. It would require =very= elaborate
moving/elevating. I'd do it myself, but don't have the moolah. It is
stunningly beautiful....

What a shame. Maybe he could sell it on ebay. If it's that nice, someone
might pay to have it moved.

Too fragile, too hilly, too remote etc etc. My wife and I debate whether
the builder lost his mind and committed suicide over it, or just chalked it
up to experience....

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
sounds hoaky. why did they give him a building permit? And if you come
back with "no building permit required", then there's no occupancy permit
required.

That is what it says on the Remax website...



s


"Jim" wrote in message
...
House around the corner from me is the =most= gorgeous log cabin,
custom
built, stone and wood everywhere....
Genius owner/builder forgot to check to see if it lies in a flood
plain b4 building; county refuses to issue an occupancy permit because it
=does=. No one will =ever= live in that house!

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:24:14 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:42:26 GMT, wrote:
I forgot to mention. When putting an outlet for a sump pump or other
dedicated circuit with a smaller motor, ALWAYS use a 15A breaker. If
that pump siezes or gets stuck from debris in the impeller, you want
that breaker to blow before the motor goes up in smoke.

Just to clarify, you can certainly use a 15 Amp (or even smaller breaker) if
you wish but the motor will likely start up better on #12 conductors than on #14
because there will be less voltage drop and therefore more starting current
available. Further, the motor should really have its own protection.

Vaughn


I agree to a limited degree. By "limited" I mean it depends on the
distance from the source (breaker box). If the sump pump is 10 ft.
from the box, it really dont matter. If it's 100 ft. it will.
Being on a DEDICATED circuit means it DOES have it's own protection.
Actually, the house I used to live in, I had a sump pump. I put a
single handybox above it and bought one of those cover plates that
consist of a switch and fuse holder on one piece. That supplied the
single outlet for the pump. I would put 10A fuses in it. (they are
probably hard to find these days).

A large motor is another matter. Use large wire for anything over 3/4
HP. Of course many of those are 220V.

wrote:

A large motor is another matter. Use large wire for anything over 3/4
HP. Of course many of those are 220V.

Ideally, use 220V on any motor with that option since it allows you to
use smaller wire and have less voltage drop and better starts with less
light dimming.

According to Pete C. :
Chris Lewis wrote:

Having 30A worth of 120V at every counter receptacle is better than
20A.

Not really, since there aren't any consumer countertop appliances that
draw more than 15A.

Who said anything about _one_ countertop appliance? With a Canadian split,
you can run a 1200W toaster and 1200W electric kettle (or electric frypan or...)
simultaneously on a single duplex receptacle. No need to install something as
potentially "industrial looking" as a quad.


I much prefer having more outlets available as in
"quads" and multiple circuits to each quad. My current kitchen has four
such "quads", and each is a separate 20A circuit, so I have 80A
available to my countertops, and that doesn't count a built in microwave
outlet that is on a 20A circuit shared only with the light / vent hood
over the stove.

Minimum Canadian code (minimal counter length) was 60A (four 15A circuits
arranged as two split duplex receptacles). Now it's 40A (two 20A unsplit
receptacles).

[Not counting builtin microwave either - that's supposed to be a dedicated
circuit, just like yours. Doesn't have to be 20A tho. Fridge, garburator,
dishwasher each a dedicated circuit too. With some minor permissible addons
(clocks etc). CEC is stricter on dedicated kitchen circuits than the NEC.
Or at least it was.]

However, now that we're going to requiring GFCIs for kitchen counter
outlets, split-wire GFCI outlets are non-existant, and double GFCI
breakers very expensive, we're switching to the US 20A GFCI standard.
But split-wire kitchen counter outlets are sitll perfectly
legal if you don't mind paying for double GFCI breakers.

The high cost of GFCI breakers is a problem. I actually saw one
installation where a guy installed a bank of GFCI receptacles right
beside the main panel as the first device on each 120V circuit to
provide the functionality of GFCI breakers. Looked funky, but probably
saved him a couple hundred dollars.

You can do the same trick with splits - remembering that the neutrals
on the split have to be split too (four current carrying conductors
into the box) - you have to split _both_ the neutral and hots on the line side
of the GFCI outlet pair. But that starts to get obnoxious. When the kitchen
gets reno'd, I _may_ splurge on dual GFCI breakers. And make 'em 20A while
I'm at it ;-) Same as your quads, but in just one receptacle ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Pete C. :
Chris Lewis wrote:

Having 30A worth of 120V at every counter receptacle is better than
20A.

Not really, since there aren't any consumer countertop appliances that
draw more than 15A.

Who said anything about _one_ countertop appliance? With a Canadian split,
you can run a 1200W toaster and 1200W electric kettle (or electric frypan or...)
simultaneously on a single duplex receptacle. No need to install something as
potentially "industrial looking" as a quad.

I like "industrial looking", and at any rate, it doesn't have to be a
"quad", it can simply be another duplex a few feet away on a separate
circuit.


I much prefer having more outlets available as in
"quads" and multiple circuits to each quad. My current kitchen has four
such "quads", and each is a separate 20A circuit, so I have 80A
available to my countertops, and that doesn't count a built in microwave
outlet that is on a 20A circuit shared only with the light / vent hood
over the stove.

Minimum Canadian code (minimal counter length) was 60A (four 15A circuits
arranged as two split duplex receptacles). Now it's 40A (two 20A unsplit
receptacles).

[Not counting builtin microwave either - that's supposed to be a dedicated
circuit, just like yours. Doesn't have to be 20A tho. Fridge, garburator,
dishwasher each a dedicated circuit too. With some minor permissible addons
(clocks etc). CEC is stricter on dedicated kitchen circuits than the NEC.
Or at least it was.]

It's not really a built in microwave, just a dedicated shelf space for a
regular one. Fridge is indeed another separate 20A circuit. Disposal and
dishwasher each share (separately) one of the 20A circuits feeding a
"quad".


However, now that we're going to requiring GFCIs for kitchen counter
outlets, split-wire GFCI outlets are non-existant, and double GFCI
breakers very expensive, we're switching to the US 20A GFCI standard.
But split-wire kitchen counter outlets are sitll perfectly
legal if you don't mind paying for double GFCI breakers.

The high cost of GFCI breakers is a problem. I actually saw one
installation where a guy installed a bank of GFCI receptacles right
beside the main panel as the first device on each 120V circuit to
provide the functionality of GFCI breakers. Looked funky, but probably
saved him a couple hundred dollars.

You can do the same trick with splits - remembering that the neutrals
on the split have to be split too (four current carrying conductors
into the box) - you have to split _both_ the neutral and hots on the line side
of the GFCI outlet pair. But that starts to get obnoxious. When the kitchen
gets reno'd, I _may_ splurge on dual GFCI breakers. And make 'em 20A while
I'm at it ;-) Same as your quads, but in just one receptacle ;-)

I like my quads, particularly with the fixed use items in my kitchen
that take up outlets - wall wart for cat water fountain dish, wall wart
for cordless phone base, and night light - there go three outlet spaces
right there.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:45:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , clarence at snyder dot on dot ca wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:38:39 -0700, Roy Terry
wrote:

However, as the "Joe Blow" guy who messes with outlets occasionally,
I would be quite unhappily surprised to discover by accident that I
could get 220 between some wires on the same outlet. Yikes.

Why? If you have the breaker off like you're supposed to, the voltage between
all the wires will be -zero- regardless of how the circuit is wired.

It's no surprise anyway if you know what you are doing. 3 colours in
the box means their's 220 in there somewhere. Splits will have both
red and black "lives" plus the white "nuetral"

Not correct. Three colors in the box means there *might* be 240V in there
somewhere. It could also mean switched and unswitched 120V.
You are correct. But I stand by my statement - 220 is NO SURPRISE if
you have both a red and a black wire.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article , clarence at snyder dot on dot ca wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:45:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , clarence at snyder
dot on dot ca wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:38:39 -0700, Roy Terry
wrote:

However, as the "Joe Blow" guy who messes with outlets occasionally,
I would be quite unhappily surprised to discover by accident that I
could get 220 between some wires on the same outlet. Yikes.

Why? If you have the breaker off like you're supposed to, the voltage between
all the wires will be -zero- regardless of how the circuit is wired.

It's no surprise anyway if you know what you are doing. 3 colours in
the box means their's 220 in there somewhere. Splits will have both
red and black "lives" plus the white "nuetral"

Not correct. Three colors in the box means there *might* be 240V in there
somewhere. It could also mean switched and unswitched 120V.
You are correct. But I stand by my statement - 220 is NO SURPRISE if
you have both a red and a black wire.

There, we certainly agree.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I know a guy who started building his own house twenty years ago. He had
the land, and $100,000 to start with. He figured the hardest part was
the foundation, so he figured he'd contract that out and do most of the
rest himself. The quote on the foundation came to $100,000. So he jumped
in with both feet and learned how to do a foundation. He's pretty much
done with the place now, but the finishing touches do seem to go on
forever.

The quote to have our basement "finished" while they were building our house
in 2003/04 was $ 40-45K.

I said forget it..I'll do it.

Here we are 3 years later and I have done the full bath (finished) and 2
bedrooms framed/plumbing/electrical/ drywalled.
Just putting the last 2 doors on now then SWMBO will paint and get carpet
done.

I've spent plenty of time (I m retired) but only $ 2K for what we have so
far. This leaves living room/game room and media room areas but since they
re "open concept" it wont be too hard or take a lot of $$. Easiest part is
electrical..I have 3 full 15A circuits to use for the 3 rooms and the
toughest part (for me) is sheetrock.. I may actually rent a lift this time
for the ceilings.

BTW, a local supplier had about 6 lifts of 9' X 48" X 5/8" firerock get
wet on one corner. It got stained and some had surface mold on the corner
of the paper.
They are selling it for $ 1.00 a sheet (Yes- One Buck) so I picked up 20
sheets and have cut the ends (1 Ft) off giving me 8 ft sheets of clean stuff
for a dollar. I'm using that vertically for the 8' walls. I may go back for
more.