A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Sep 13, 11:07?pm, willshak wrote:
on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:

A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

its true, verizon is spending billions, and pushing to convert
everyone to fibre. once you get fios you can never go back to copper.

I am very sorry I supposedly upgraded from DSL to FIOS, the internet
portion is great but I have had serious long lasting bad phone
troubles, and they really dont care about poor phone service.

If I had to to do over again i would of kept with DSL

after weeks of calling at the end multiple times daily they finally
had a network tech troubleshoot and fix the problem that effected our
central office, a noisey bad T1 router.

it shouldnt of taken over a month to fix it and I am so ****ed I have
thought about dropping that line altogether.

their service sucks

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:07:01 -0400, willshak
wrote:

on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

Around here, Verizon IS the owner of the phone lines. Verizon is the
phone company. (TPC in "The President's Analyst" a movie that could
have been great, but iirc wasn't.)

No one is taking out cable. If my use of "copper" seemed to include
cable, I apologize. But the only phone service avaialble on cable is
VOIP iiuc, and not everyone wants that. Not me.

On Sep 13, 10:48 pm, mm wrote:

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

If I am buying a house, the last thing on my mind would be whether or
not it has a copper phone line. It's not going to make or break a
sale.

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,


On Sep 14, 4:37 am, Mikepier wrote:
On Sep 13, 10:48 pm, mm wrote:

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

If I am buying a house, the last thing on my mind would be whether or
not it has a copper phone line. It's not going to make or break a
sale.

"mm" wrote

A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

They aren't supposed to do that without your permissioin.
Verizon has gotten into trouble for doing that in central
Jersey. If I was to get FIOS, I would make damned sure they
didn't pull a fast one like that.

nancy

In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,

Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.

--
Seth Goodman

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I hear they like to take out the copper but everything in your house is
yours so you just tell them not to. I have Comcast cable and internet
but still have old Verizon phones. I had choice of Comcast or Verizon
but was reticent to hook up with the "phone company" who has always had
atrocious service. Also don't want all my eggs in one basket.

Frank

I converted everything to fios (TV, internet, phone) some months ago.

the installer left the copper in place and said I should leave it because I
might want to change phone companies later.

live in Texas.
"mm" wrote in message
news A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Frank wrote:
mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.
So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I hear they like to take out the copper but everything in your house is
yours so you just tell them not to.

They don't touch the interior phone wiring except for disconnecting it
from the old NID and connecting it to the new adapter they install.


I have Comcast cable and internet
but still have old Verizon phones. I had choice of Comcast or Verizon
but was reticent to hook up with the "phone company" who has always had
atrocious service. Also don't want all my eggs in one basket.

Frank

George wrote:

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Power outage.

Copper phone lines provide electrical power (driven by central
generators) so you can still use simple phones when the power goes out.

Fiber to the home means you're relying on battery-backup.

I lived on the East coast during the big blackout, had no power for a
few days. Some people were without power for multiple weeks....I'm
guessing their battery backup won't power the phones for that long.

Chris

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:07:01 -0400, willshak
wrote:

on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

Around here, Verizon IS the owner of the phone lines. Verizon is the
phone company. (TPC in "The President's Analyst" a movie that could
have been great, but iirc wasn't.)

No one is taking out cable. If my use of "copper" seemed to include
cable, I apologize. But the only phone service avaialble on cable is
VOIP iiuc, and not everyone wants that. Not me.

-The President's Analyst was a very clever movie. If you haven't seen it
you should.

As for OP, once copper or fiber enters your space, it's yours. Not theirs.

I can't imagine any provider physically removing anything, anyhow. Except
for some termination device, maybe.

Seth Goodman wrote:
In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,

Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.


Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you. An example
of what is in them is he

http://tinyurl.com/2e6z9d

They have some BFB's, (Big Freaking Batteries)

[8~{} Uncle Monster

ng_reader wrote:


As for OP, once copper or fiber enters your space, it's yours. Not theirs.

I can't imagine any provider physically removing anything, anyhow. Except
for some termination device, maybe.


Back in Green decision and deregulation, ma bell tried that
(it's OUR cable and devices).

But changed their mind real fast when the lawsuits rolled in
for damages to the building, both inside and out ;-)

walls, wallcoverings, flooring, siding, walkways etc...

If it's attached to your property, it's yours. but if it's
attached to a surface they provided, it's their's except for
the surface- which you get to keep. think plywood or
synthetic mounting board.

-larry / dallas

Chris Friesen wrote:
George wrote:

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I
don't see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or
fiber. Or in the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would
it matter to you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Power outage.

Copper phone lines provide electrical power (driven by central
generators) so you can still use simple phones when the power goes out.

Fiber to the home means you're relying on battery-backup.

I lived on the East coast during the big blackout, had no power for a
few days. Some people were without power for multiple weeks....I'm
guessing their battery backup won't power the phones for that long.

Chris

You can address that but adding your own UPS. The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:54:46 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:

Seth Goodman wrote:
In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,

Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.


Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you. An example
of what is in them is he

http://tinyurl.com/2e6z9d

They have some BFB's, (Big Freaking Batteries)

[8~{} Uncle Monster

I got to see the (phone co. battery room) in Fort Worth about 25 years
ago. They had a lot of big batteries, some of which came out of old
submarines.
--
102 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message
from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive,
please ignore it. If you don't know how to
ignore a posting, complain to me and I will
demonstrate."

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:17 GMT, "newman"
wrote:

I converted everything to fios (TV, internet, phone) some months ago.

the installer left the copper in place and said I should leave it because I
might want to change phone companies later.

live in Texas.
"mm" wrote in message
news A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?


The phone here is with Verizon, in east Texas. We don't have FIOS
available yet (not overpopulated enough).

The cable system does offer phone, although I decided against it for
similar reasons.

[snip]

--
102 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message
from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive,
please ignore it. If you don't know how to
ignore a posting, complain to me and I will
demonstrate."

On Sep 14, 6:01 pm, George wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
George wrote:

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I
don't see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or
fiber. Or in the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would
it matter to you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Power outage.

Copper phone lines provide electrical power (driven by central
generators) so you can still use simple phones when the power goes out.

Fiber to the home means you're relying on battery-backup.

I lived on the East coast during the big blackout, had no power for a
few days. Some people were without power for multiple weeks....I'm
guessing their battery backup won't power the phones for that long.

Chris

You can address that but adding your own UPS.

It's not clear to me that you can add a UPS with FIOS. You can do it
with with some of the cable VOIP solutions, where they essentially
give you a kit that has the VOIP hardware and you just plug it in to
AC and coonect to the cable. With FIOS, where is the box located
that converts the traditional phone signal into VOIP? If it's in
some box under Verizon's control, then you may not be able to hook a
UPS to it. Anyone know what Verizon's position is on what happens
when the AC goes out in your neighborhood?

Plus, a UPS is just another level of complexity and eqpt to worry
about. Like, do you think grandma wants to deal with it?




The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:54:46 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:

Seth Goodman wrote:
In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,
Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.

Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you. An example
of what is in them is he

http://tinyurl.com/2e6z9d

They have some BFB's, (Big Freaking Batteries)

[8~{} Uncle Monster

I got to see the (phone co. battery room) in Fort Worth about 25 years
ago. They had a lot of big batteries, some of which came out of old
submarines.

Most people have no idea of what's in those nondescript
buildings and under the streets and sidewalks of their
cities and towns.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:54:46 -0400, Frank
frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I hear they like to take out the copper but everything in your house is
yours

Maybe, maybe not.` Ng_reader said the same thing, but I don't know
why you people think that. Used to be, people leased their phone,
even though it say on their own table or was screwed to their own
wall.

You can lease furniture, you can lease a piano, you can rent an
electric wheelchair, you can rent a tuxedo and put it in your closet.
Why would you assume that everything in your house is yours, without
reading the terms of service, which probably vary from state to state,
and which can probably change on 30 days notice published at the
public utility commission and posted on the internet at
www.who-looks-there?

so you just tell them not to.

Maybe, but I woudl stand over them from start to finish. A) It's hard
to tell if someone is listening when you're talking. B) Even if they
say OK, I won't take them out, they can deny later that they said it.
C) They can say they said it but they forgot. They can actually
forget. They can schedule you for replacement copper and never show
up, and how long will

You never can tell what people will do when you're not looking.

I have Comcast cable and internet
but still have old Verizon phones. I had choice of Comcast or Verizon
but was reticent to hook up with the "phone company" who has always had
atrocious service. Also don't want all my eggs in one basket.

Frank

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:17 GMT, "newman"
wrote:

I converted everything to fios (TV, internet, phone) some months ago.

the installer left the copper in place and said I should leave it because I
might want to change phone companies later.

live in Texas.

Is this Verizon in Texas, or another company? It's another company, I
think.

My friend and I are in Maryland, but I know Verizon is in a lot of
states north of here.

Sometimes the same company has different policies in different places.
My brother got cable internet in Dallas, Comcast I think, and the free
install wouldn't put it in the room he wanted (which was the hardest
room). When I got back here, the guy at the comcast booth at a hamfest
said in Baltiomre that they would put int in any room you wanted, for
the free install, even if it required work. He knew I was just
chatting, and not a customer so he had little reason to lie, and
that's what he said.


"mm" wrote in message
news A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office
that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is
required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

"Uncle Monster" wrote:

Most people have no idea of what's in those nondescript
buildings and under the streets and sidewalks of their
cities and towns.

Orgies with operators.

Jon

wrote:

You can address that but adding your own UPS.

It's not clear to me that you can add a UPS with FIOS. You can do it
with with some of the cable VOIP solutions, where they essentially
give you a kit that has the VOIP hardware and you just plug it in to
AC and coonect to the cable. With FIOS, where is the box located
that converts the traditional phone signal into VOIP? If it's in
some box under Verizon's control, then you may not be able to hook a
UPS to it. Anyone know what Verizon's position is on what happens
when the AC goes out in your neighborhood?


You simply unplug it from the wall outlet and plug it into the UPS.


Plus, a UPS is just another level of complexity and eqpt to worry
about. Like, do you think grandma wants to deal with it?


It isn't much more involved than plugging in a toaster and besides thats
what the grandkids are for.


As I said if it doesn't happen people will be wondering why their
"basic" comcast bill is $250.00/month.





The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

mm wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office
that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is
required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?
As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

Sure, but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable
companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.
Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.



the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

On Sep 15, 9:02 am, George wrote:
wrote:

You can address that but adding your own UPS.

It's not clear to me that you can add a UPS with FIOS. You can do it
with with some of the cable VOIP solutions, where they essentially
give you a kit that has the VOIP hardware and you just plug it in to
AC and coonect to the cable. With FIOS, where is the box located
that converts the traditional phone signal into VOIP? If it's in
some box under Verizon's control, then you may not be able to hook a
UPS to it. Anyone know what Verizon's position is on what happens
when the AC goes out in your neighborhood?

You simply unplug it from the wall outlet and plug it into the UPS.

Well, I did a little research and while it does appear that you can
indeed just plug the FIOS eqpt into a UPS, what I found raises new
issues. A battery backup unit and a power supply have to be located
inside the house to power the FIOS termination box on the outside of
the house. Additionally, the guy in this article who had it
installed said that per Verizon the power supply can't be plugged into
a power strip, it has to go directly into a wall outlet. So, I don't
know what their official position is on plugging it into a UPS would
be. Certainly you could do it after they left. However, how about
if you don't have an outlet at all that is convenient to where the
service needs to enter the house? It does raise more installation
issues.

The point is some folks may have good reason to not go through all
this.

http://www.bricklin.com/fiosinstall.htm







Plus, a UPS is just another level of complexity and eqpt to worry
about. Like, do you think grandma wants to deal with it?

It isn't much more involved than plugging in a toaster and besides thats
what the grandkids are for.

Except that in this case, the "toaster" may be in a crawl space or God
knows where. And what if there is no convenient AC outlet? Who
pays to get that installed?




As I said if it doesn't happen people will be wondering why their
"basic" comcast bill is $250.00/month.



Nonsense. That didn;t happen 30 years ago, when cable were the only
act in town, other than OTA. Don't get me wrong. More competition
in this case is good. But to claim the sky is falling and cable is
going to cost $250 a month unless we force people into fiber from the
phone company is silly. Ever here of Direct TV and Dish?







The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

The current penetration rate of cable companies taking away landline
phone business is very modest. I get solicited constantly to go with
Cablevision's VOIP and ditch Verizon landline. I tell them no,
because for me, it only amounts to maybe $10 a month. And there are
the dirty little secrets they don't tell you about:

1 - They give you a VOIP box that you get to install yourself. Well,
guess what? It's designed to just plug a phone into it, not to be
installed to connect to the existing phone wiring in your house.
That's fine if you just have a cordless phone. But how about if you
have a TIVO, a fax machine, and an alarm system that dials out, all of
which are distributed around the house. Do I want to figure out
how to intercept the incoming phone lines, turn it off, connect in the
Cablevision box, make sure it works correctly with the alarm system,
etc? I had a friend that tried to do it, wound up with hum on the
line.

2 - I haven't checked recently, but when I did a couple years ago,
alarm companies like ADT would not support service via VOIP

3 - Call quality issues. On the existing landline phone system, once
a call is setup, you have a guaranteed timeslot that get filled with a
voice A/D conversion at an 8khz rate and delivered exactly at that
rate and in order to the other end. With VOIP, the voice samples
get sent and routed like any other internet packet. Meaning there is
no guaranteed delivery time, which can lead to voice qualtiy issues.
That has gotten better in recent years, but I don't know anyone that
would argue that the call reliability or voice quality are as good as
landline.


The whole thing is also being driven by the other side of the
equation. That being that the phone company wants the $130 a month
part of the bill for cable and internet more than they want the $40
bill for phone service.




Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:12:13 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office
that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is
required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?
As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

Sure,

So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.

but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there
are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by
normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or
none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone
connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or
even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to
maintain.

As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it
is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of
phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from
company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that
their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for
everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS
will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better
product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do
fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to
promote them.

mm

the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:


I got to see the (phone co. battery room) in Fort Worth about 25 years
ago. They had a lot of big batteries, some of which came out of old
submarines.

Most people have no idea of what's in those nondescript
buildings and under the streets and sidewalks of their
cities and towns.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

This all started when they started putting the gas pipes and electric
wires IN the walls. They should have left them outside so people would
appreciate how complicated they are. Easier to repair too.

I agree that it's hard to realize, even if one knows, how much stuff
is down there. I think there is a big oil pipe running from Texas to
New Jersey and and non-consumer gas pipes all over the place, and lots
of stuff liket that.

mm wrote:


So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.


I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the
phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house. I don't
understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for
cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the
provider?

but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there
are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by
normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or
none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone
connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or
even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to
maintain.

You are completely missing the big picture. You have to plan far out
into the future for this kind of stuff. The phone company can't simply
sit on its hands and then one day wake up and realize that they lost 85%
of their customers to the cable companies. My buddy works for one of the
big cable companies and they can't even come close to addressing the
demand for their phone service. And the cable company install is about
5% (or less) of the complexity of a FiOS install.



As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it
is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of
phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from
company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that
their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for
everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS
will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better
product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do
fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

You may not realize it but you are using VoIP pretty much every time you
use your telephone that is connected via copper lines. Pretty much all
signaling after the CO and sometimes before is digital.



Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to
promote them.


Obviously it is their problem. If they don't promote FiOS and loose most
of their customers how much do you think a plain copper line might cost?
I think it might be quite expensive if only 10% of the people on a block
have one .


mm
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?
I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

mm wrote:

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

It's "Libertarians" that believe nothing should be regulated. We
conservatives think some things should be: the border, terrorists, and,
er..., maybe something else. As for building codes etc., the government
could, perhaps, mandate insurance to cover any losses (as they do with auto
liability insurance) and then let people build - or drive - any old way they
want.

I live in a city with no zoning and it works out swell.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:52:56 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:


So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.


I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the
phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house.

Maybe you are out of touch with people who have less money than you
do. We have millions, maybe 10's of millions of home buyers who
learned what happens when the interest on their mortgage goes up, and
learned that they can't buy as big a home that they might want, or
spend another 500 dollars a year on this, and 500 on that, and on
that.

I heard other study on the radio a day or two ago, that when Pell
grants are lowered just 100 or 200, that one can notice the students
who drop out of college, because they and their parents have already
stetched to the limit to come up with the money they are spending for
college with the full Pell grant.

This is not special to to house buying or college. My brother makes a
good living, thank God, and what he does is buy whatever he needs and
puts the rest in a savings account. When he has enough, he buys a
stock or a bond. But most people have a budget, even a written
budget, and they try to stick to it.

And all of those people have a price point. A price above which they
will not buy. Regardless of how low or high it is, even if it is
higher than it should be for their income, they have one.

If someone here was buying a home and all they considered was how much
money they had to put down, everyone here would ridicule them. They
have to consider the mortage, insurance, taxes, upkeep, AND utilities.

Of course not every buyer will be disuaded by another 200 or 500 a
year, but some of those people will feel, Why should I pay 200 for
FIOS when I have no interest in it, when I can buy the other house,
and for the same 200 extra, get that extra tree, or the

Car dealers and other vendors know that "throwing in" some little
cheap almost worthless feature can make a sale. Maybe not as common,
but insisting on selling the buyer an undesirer feature can queer a
sale.


I don't
understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for
cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the
provider?

You just agreed in your previous reply to me that FIOS costs a lot
more. So I don't understand the point of your question. It's like
asking, wouldn't a woman need to pay for a dress to wear to a wedding,
so why should she object to paying 3 times as much as she paid for her
previous dress?


but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there
are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by
normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or
none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone
connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or
even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to
maintain.

You are completely missing the big picture. You have to plan far out
into the future for this kind of stuff.

They have to plan, not me. I have to worry about paying my expenses
and those of people who depend on me, and saving money for retirement.

The phone company can't simply
sit on its hands and then one day wake up and realize that they lost 85%

I never suggested they sit on their hands. They can install as many
Fios lines as they want. That doesn't mean they have to take out the
copper and especially not by tricking me. And what if I move for
another job and rent my home, and the tenant puts in Fios and has no
idea they'll be taking out the copper, or doesn't appreciate the
consequencs. Then when I get back, I get the shaft. A friend of mine
got a job in another city for a year and rented his house to a tenant,
and moved back in a year later, when he got a better job in his home
town. Another friend kept his house as an investment when he got
married and bought a bigger house with his wife. When he got divorced,
it was coincidentally just as the lease on the rental was expiring,
and he moved back into his original house. Neither of these tenants
screwed anything up,

of their customers to the cable companies. My buddy works for one of the
big cable companies and they can't even come close to addressing the
demand for their phone service. And the cable company install is about
5% (or less) of the complexity of a FiOS install.

Why does any of this mean they should take the copper out of house
that has it, when they install Fios, and why does any of this mean I
should cooperate?

I think when you talk about high demand, you are arguing against your
own point. If they have high demand, they ARE making money, and it
won't be necessary to take out the copper when eventually everyone
wants FIOS. Even if it is only 90% who have ordered it voluntarily,
I'm not saying they can't phase out copper when usage on a street is
90% FIOS, or when it costs too much or they need the space at the
central station. But that is not the situation we're talking about.

But it is never going to cost them anything to let the copper sit in
someone's house and in the yard leading to the house, and it's not
costing them anything now to keep the rest of the copper supply system
(switches and whatever accessories are required) , becuase they can't
provide FIOS for more than a few percent of customers anyhow, and
haven't convinced more than 1 or 2 percent to buy it.

I'm not an enemy of corporations. I don't have as much money as my
brother, but I have stock in corporations and have had since my father
left me stocks when he died when I was 8. My mother lived off that
money, the income from mine and my brother's and hers plus part of the
principal for 20 years. (My father set it up, as well he should have,
that no money went to my brother or me until my mother died, unless my
mother requested part of the principal for special expenses.) I know
that corporations are supposed to make profits and when they follow
proper practices, I'm in favor of it.

We already know that VErizon isn't big on full disclosure, and without
full disclosure in advance, the company IMO isn't honest**. I've
referring to the 20 dollar connection and shipping charge they tacked
on after I was 90% done signing up, when they bragged in advance in
detail about *every*thing that they gave me "Free". The installation
charge (for work done at their office, since I did the work here) cost
more that the "First Month Free" that they bragged about everywhere.

**That's why the 20 dollars bothered me so much. It's not the 20
dollars so much as I think they weren't honest.



As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it
is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of
phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from
company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that
their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for
everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS
will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better
product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do
fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

You may not realize it but you are using VoIP pretty much every time you
use your telephone that is connected via copper lines. Pretty much all
signaling after the CO and sometimes before is digital.

So that's fine. It reinforces my question. Not removing the copper
doesn't change t he equation, and if FIOS can't compete with VOIP, is
more expensive or does less well or customers don't like it, why is it
wrong if VOIP wins and Fios losses?


Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to
promote them.


Obviously it is their problem. If they don't promote FiOS and loose most
of their customers how much do you think a plain copper line might cost?

It costs them NOTHING now. They have the wire in place adn they have
the central station equipment in place as long as anyone at the local
station is using copper.

I think it might be quite expensive if only 10% of the people on a block
have one .

We're at 98% now. When we get down to 20% we can make plans.


mm
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?
I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:42:40 -0700, wrote:

On Sep 15, 9:02 am, George wrote:
.....

You simply unplug it from the wall outlet and plug it into the UPS.

Well, I did a little research and while it does appear that you can
indeed just plug the FIOS eqpt into a UPS, what I found raises new
issues. A battery backup unit and a power supply have to be located
inside the house to power the FIOS termination box on the outside of
the house. Additionally, the guy in this article who had it
installed said that per Verizon the power supply can't be plugged into
a power strip, it has to go directly into a wall outlet.

What's the difference?

So, I don't
know what their official position is on plugging it into a UPS would
be. Certainly you could do it after they left. However, how about
if you don't have an outlet at all that is convenient to where the
service needs to enter the house? It does raise more installation
issues.

The point is some folks may have good reason to not go through all
this.

I don't like using a UPS. I don't like the fact that whenever I'm
using it, it is hot. I'm wasting electricity. When it's summer time,
I'm heating my room which is either already hot, or which I'm paying
for AC to cool.

And I don't want to buy a second one just for the basement, or have to
move this one during a power failure. Especially at night when I
can't see what I'm doing. (I have a flashlight, but not in every
room. I have to go get it.) All so much simpler with copper.

http://www.bricklin.com/fiosinstall.htm







Plus, a UPS is just another level of complexity and eqpt to worry
about. Like, do you think grandma wants to deal with it?

It isn't much more involved than plugging in a toaster and besides thats
what the grandkids are for.

Except that in this case, the "toaster" may be in a crawl space or God
knows where. And what if there is no convenient AC outlet? Who
pays to get that installed?




As I said if it doesn't happen people will be wondering why their
"basic" comcast bill is $250.00/month.



Nonsense. That didn;t happen 30 years ago, when cable were the only
act in town, other than OTA. Don't get me wrong. More competition
in this case is good. But to claim the sky is falling and cable is
going to cost $250 a month unless we force people into fiber from the
phone company is silly. Ever here of Direct TV and Dish?







The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

The current penetration rate of cable companies taking away landline
phone business is very modest. I get solicited constantly to go with
Cablevision's VOIP and ditch Verizon landline. I tell them no,
because for me, it only amounts to maybe $10 a month. And there are
the dirty little secrets they don't tell you about:

1 - They give you a VOIP box that you get to install yourself. Well,
guess what? It's designed to just plug a phone into it, not to be
installed to connect to the existing phone wiring in your house.
That's fine if you just have a cordless phone. But how about if you
have a TIVO, a fax machine, and an alarm system that dials out, all of
which are distributed around the house. Do I want to figure out
how to intercept the incoming phone lines, turn it off, connect in the
Cablevision box, make sure it works correctly with the alarm system,
etc? I had a friend that tried to do it, wound up with hum on the
line.

2 - I haven't checked recently, but when I did a couple years ago,
alarm companies like ADT would not support service via VOIP

3 - Call quality issues. On the existing landline phone system, once
a call is setup, you have a guaranteed timeslot that get filled with a
voice A/D conversion at an 8khz rate and delivered exactly at that
rate and in order to the other end. With VOIP, the voice samples
get sent and routed like any other internet packet. Meaning there is
no guaranteed delivery time, which can lead to voice qualtiy issues.
That has gotten better in recent years, but I don't know anyone that
would argue that the call reliability or voice quality are as good as
landline.


The whole thing is also being driven by the other side of the
equation. That being that the phone company wants the $130 a month
part of the bill for cable and internet more than they want the $40
bill for phone service.




Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Uncle Monster wrote:

Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you.

Update! The large Central Office battery rooms are shrinking
fast:
Solid state equipment is more power efficient.
CO's are now unmanned.
CO only has 12-24 hr battery.
CO has no generator.
Lead and sulfuric acid are banned or hazmat.

It's much more cost effective to pull up a portable 50KW
Onan at the CO building and "plug" into the charger buss.
One portable can easily support a dozen COs during long,
wide area power outages and "parked" where needed.

The cell sites work the same way.

The phone companies are quietly doing away with the massive
lead liability they had. Find a piece of lead jacketed phone
cable these days, and figure the tons of lead leached from
aerial cable.

Your copper phone line is now powered from a local
neighborhood fiber fed "hut" or RemoteTerminal and a few
automotive sized batteries. It's not a big city thing
either, rural Adams County Pa now has many more RTs than COs!

All this new fiber stuff is moving the RT and terrabits to
your back door ;-)

-larry / dallas

larry wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:

Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you.

Update! The large Central Office battery rooms are shrinking fast:
Solid state equipment is more power efficient.
CO's are now unmanned.
CO only has 12-24 hr battery.
CO has no generator.
Lead and sulfuric acid are banned or hazmat.

It's much more cost effective to pull up a portable 50KW Onan at the CO
building and "plug" into the charger buss. One portable can easily
support a dozen COs during long, wide area power outages and "parked"
where needed.

The cell sites work the same way.

The phone companies are quietly doing away with the massive lead
liability they had. Find a piece of lead jacketed phone cable these
days, and figure the tons of lead leached from aerial cable.

Your copper phone line is now powered from a local neighborhood fiber
fed "hut" or RemoteTerminal and a few automotive sized batteries. It's
not a big city thing either, rural Adams County Pa now has many more RTs
than COs!

All this new fiber stuff is moving the RT and terrabits to your back
door ;-)

-larry / dallas


Did you go to the site I posted? It shows the new technology
in batteries that are now in use and there are some pictures
of the remote equipment and the newer battery rooms. I have,
on more than occasion, dug up lead sheathed power and telecom
cables. Before the advent of solid plastic UF power cable, the
only thing that worked well for direct burial was a romex like
cable with oiled paper insulation and a lead sheath. I've come
across old telecom cable that had oiled paper insulated small
wires in lead. I'll bet it was a real chore to make water proof
splices.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

larry wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote:

Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you.

Update! The large Central Office battery rooms are shrinking fast:
Solid state equipment is more power efficient.
CO's are now unmanned.
CO only has 12-24 hr battery.
CO has no generator.
Lead and sulfuric acid are banned or hazmat.

It's much more cost effective to pull up a portable 50KW Onan at the CO
building and "plug" into the charger buss. One portable can easily
support a dozen COs during long, wide area power outages and "parked"
where needed.

The cell sites work the same way.


Its just a cost cutting measure. A lot of people don't realize how
Mickey Mouse some carriers infrastructure really is. The traditional
old school carriers such as Verizon still have lots of battery and also
installed generators.

Same is true of the cell carriers. Verizon Wireless has battery and
almost always an installed generator at each cell site. Other operators
typically have only minimal battery and a power connector.

A trailer mounted generator might be a good idea for a really local
outage but having one installed on each site is just a little nicer. Ask
anyone who was in the hurricanes in Florida about wireless carriers and
they will tell you only one of them was up during the storms and for the
weeks after when there was no commercial power.

I know someone who works for a particular wireless carrier and he tells
me they have exactly two trailer mounted generators to cover 2 1/2 states.





The phone companies are quietly doing away with the massive lead
liability they had. Find a piece of lead jacketed phone cable these
days, and figure the tons of lead leached from aerial cable.

Your copper phone line is now powered from a local neighborhood fiber
fed "hut" or RemoteTerminal and a few automotive sized batteries. It's
not a big city thing either, rural Adams County Pa now has many more RTs
than COs!

All this new fiber stuff is moving the RT and terrabits to your back
door ;-)

-larry / dallas

Here in PDX, OR., Comcast is pushing VOIP on their cable, and
including a warning that you can't reach local 911 service with
their VOIP.

Somehow, I don't think thats a problem unique to Comcast, or to this area.

Why would any body use VOIP?

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..

Here in PDX, OR., Comcast is pushing VOIP on their cable, and
including a warning that you can't reach local 911 service with
their VOIP.

Somehow, I don't think thats a problem unique to Comcast, or to this area.

Why would any body use VOIP?

Because it is cheap compared to the phone companies. The $99 packages are a
good deal. When my cable company finally had it, I may consider changing.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..

Here in PDX, OR., Comcast is pushing VOIP on their cable, and
including a warning that you can't reach local 911 service with
their VOIP.

Somehow, I don't think thats a problem unique to Comcast, or to this area.

Why would any body use VOIP?


Because it is cheap compared to the phone companies. The $99 packages are a
good deal. When my cable company finally had it, I may consider changing.



Sorry Ed, I have to disagree with you.

VOIP is not cheap. And the $ 99.00 packages around here are a low ball
come on,
and jump way up when the promotional period runs out in 12 months.

I know that individual situations will vary, but.......

My POTS dial tone from Qworst is 24 and change a month.

My "dial one" carrier for long distance is an outfit called myGTC. I
pay $ 0.025
(thats 2 and a half cents a minute) for long distance, anywhere in the
US or Canada.

Even with "unlimited" long distance from Comcast here on their VOIP
service,
my total phone bills for local and long distance never approach the $ 48
plus a
month that Comcast wants as their "real" price for VOIP.

I'd have to spend more than $ 23.00 on long distance at $ 0.025 / minute --
more than 900 minutes - ~ 15 hours on long distance for VOIP to
make mere economic sense.

And with Comcast, I can't reach local police, fire and medical emergency
service on 911.

Not to mention that Qworst has to get rate increases approved by the Oregon
PUC and Comcast doesn't. And I can get a response from Qworst because
the PUC
monitors service quality and response / repair time with Qworst, but not
Comcast/

I don't see any economic benefit (Comcast is more expesive than my
current set up)
or technological benefit (no phone in a power outage, and we get lots of
power
outages from November through March) or service benefit (no 911 service on
Comcast) to Comcast VOIP.

Other areas of the country may have a different calculus, and other
folks may have
different calling patterns, but for me VOIP makes no sense.

YMMV