On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:44:04 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

mm wrote:

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

It's "Libertarians" that believe nothing should be regulated. We
conservatives think some things should be: the border, terrorists, and,
er..., maybe something else.

What about utilities?

As for building codes etc., the government
could, perhaps, mandate insurance to cover any losses (as they do with auto
liability insurance) and then let people build - or drive - any old way they
want.

I live in a city with no zoning and it works out swell.

Do you live in a nice residential neighborhood? What if your next
door neighbor retired from his job and wanted to open an abatoir in
his lot?

You have a lot in common with Libertarians. That's why most? people
categorize libertarians as one of the 3 or 4 major subsets of
conservatives.

Although there are some big differences on other points. (But with 20
or 50 issues, we'd need hundreds of thousand of categories if every
set of ideas had its own category.)

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message



Even with "unlimited" long distance from Comcast here on their VOIP
service,
my total phone bills for local and long distance never approach the $ 48
plus a
month that Comcast wants as their "real" price for VOIP.

Seems to be a diffrence between digital phone and VOIP
By using known VoIP services you are using your current internet
connection to place a call over the internet using the internet
signal/bandwidth to transmit your call. This in turn can cause call quality
issues such as echo, crackling and voice hesitations. With MetroCast Digital
Phone service, your phone conversations will not be impacted by applications
which require the internet. By using a standard known as Quality of Service
(QOS) in the telecom industry, MetroCast is able to provide you with
reliable and quality Digital telephone service.



I'd have to spend more than $ 23.00 on long distance at $ 0.025 /
minute --
more than 900 minutes - ~ 15 hours on long distance for VOIP to
make mere economic sense.

And with Comcast, I can't reach local police, fire and medical emergency
service on 911.

In most places now, you can reach them and they get the caller ID same a
dial tone.
This is from our local cable company
Safety and security is top priority and with Digital Phone service, you are
provided enhanced 911 service which sends your telephone number and address
information to a local 911 dispatcher if 911 is dialed from your home. If
there is a power outage, MetroCast Digital phone service and E911 access
will still be available due to a battery back up in the modem which is
installed in your home. Please keep in mind that cordless phones which plug
into an electrical outlet will not function during a power outage. Be sure
to have at least one corded phone in your home in case of a power outage.



*If there is a network outage or a downed cable line in your area, Digital
Phone service and E911 service may be interrupted until the necessary
repairs can be made. This is the same with your current telephone provider
today if your telephone drop was to be compromised in any way or there was a
system related problem in your provider's network.



I don't see any economic benefit (Comcast is more expesive than my
current set up)
or technological benefit (no phone in a power outage, and we get lots of
power
outages from November through March) or service benefit (no 911 service on
Comcast) to Comcast VOIP.

Other areas of the country may have a different calculus, and other
folks may have
different calling patterns, but for me VOIP makes no sense.


I'll wait until it is actually here to decide, but I pay a lot for overall
phone service. Sure, the $99 is a come on, but I know one guy that is
saving about $75 a month on his phone with intrastate long distance charges.
That will vary, as does cable services selected etc. I won't consider a
change for $10 a month, but certainly will for $50+.

mm wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:52:56 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:

So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.

I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the
phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house.

Maybe you are out of touch with people who have less money than you
do. We have millions, maybe 10's of millions of home buyers who
learned what happens when the interest on their mortgage goes up, and
learned that they can't buy as big a home that they might want, or
spend another 500 dollars a year on this, and 500 on that, and on
that.

I heard other study on the radio a day or two ago, that when Pell
grants are lowered just 100 or 200, that one can notice the students
who drop out of college, because they and their parents have already
stetched to the limit to come up with the money they are spending for
college with the full Pell grant.

This is not special to to house buying or college. My brother makes a
good living, thank God, and what he does is buy whatever he needs and
puts the rest in a savings account. When he has enough, he buys a
stock or a bond. But most people have a budget, even a written
budget, and they try to stick to it.


Not understanding what this has to do with the discussion. Lets say you
have FiOS in an apartment you own and across town you have another
apartment with cable carrying TV/data/phone the same as FiOS. When
someone moves in it is up to them to decide what if anything they wish
to purchase. In either case they could get phone or TV or data or
*nothing*.



And all of those people have a price point. A price above which they
will not buy. Regardless of how low or high it is, even if it is
higher than it should be for their income, they have one.

If someone here was buying a home and all they considered was how much
money they had to put down, everyone here would ridicule them. They
have to consider the mortage, insurance, taxes, upkeep, AND utilities.

Of course not every buyer will be disuaded by another 200 or 500 a
year, but some of those people will feel, Why should I pay 200 for
FIOS when I have no interest in it, when I can buy the other house,
and for the same 200 extra, get that extra tree, or the

Car dealers and other vendors know that "throwing in" some little
cheap almost worthless feature can make a sale. Maybe not as common,
but insisting on selling the buyer an undesirer feature can queer a
sale.


I don't
understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for
cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the
provider?

You just agreed in your previous reply to me that FIOS costs a lot
more. So I don't understand the point of your question.

I agreed it cost more for them to install.

It's like
asking, wouldn't a woman need to pay for a dress to wear to a wedding,
so why should she object to paying 3 times as much as she paid for her
previous dress?

but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable
That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there
are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by
normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or
none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone
connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or
even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to
maintain.
You are completely missing the big picture. You have to plan far out
into the future for this kind of stuff.

They have to plan, not me. I have to worry about paying my expenses
and those of people who depend on me, and saving money for retirement.

The phone company can't simply
sit on its hands and then one day wake up and realize that they lost 85%

I never suggested they sit on their hands. They can install as many
Fios lines as they want. That doesn't mean they have to take out the
copper and especially not by tricking me. And what if I move for
another job and rent my home, and the tenant puts in Fios and has no
idea they'll be taking out the copper, or doesn't appreciate the
consequencs. Then when I get back, I get the shaft.

friend of mine
got a job in another city for a year and rented his house to a tenant,
and moved back in a year later, when he got a better job in his home
town. Another friend kept his house as an investment when he got
married and bought a bigger house with his wife. When he got divorced,
it was coincidentally just as the lease on the rental was expiring,
and he moved back into his original house. Neither of these tenants
screwed anything up,

of their customers to the cable companies. My buddy works for one of the
big cable companies and they can't even come close to addressing the
demand for their phone service. And the cable company install is about
5% (or less) of the complexity of a FiOS install.

Why does any of this mean they should take the copper out of house
that has it, when they install Fios, and why does any of this mean I
should cooperate?

I think when you talk about high demand, you are arguing against your
own point. If they have high demand, they ARE making money, and it
won't be necessary to take out the copper when eventually everyone
wants FIOS. Even if it is only 90% who have ordered it voluntarily,
I'm not saying they can't phase out copper when usage on a street is
90% FIOS, or when it costs too much or they need the space at the
central station. But that is not the situation we're talking about.

But it is never going to cost them anything to let the copper sit in
someone's house and in the yard leading to the house, and it's not
costing them anything now to keep the rest of the copper supply system
(switches and whatever accessories are required) , becuase they can't
provide FIOS for more than a few percent of customers anyhow, and
haven't convinced more than 1 or 2 percent to buy it.

I'm not an enemy of corporations. I don't have as much money as my
brother, but I have stock in corporations and have had since my father
left me stocks when he died when I was 8. My mother lived off that
money, the income from mine and my brother's and hers plus part of the
principal for 20 years. (My father set it up, as well he should have,
that no money went to my brother or me until my mother died, unless my
mother requested part of the principal for special expenses.) I know
that corporations are supposed to make profits and when they follow
proper practices, I'm in favor of it.

We already know that VErizon isn't big on full disclosure, and without
full disclosure in advance, the company IMO isn't honest**. I've
referring to the 20 dollar connection and shipping charge they tacked
on after I was 90% done signing up, when they bragged in advance in
detail about *every*thing that they gave me "Free". The installation
charge (for work done at their office, since I did the work here) cost
more that the "First Month Free" that they bragged about everywhere.

**That's why the 20 dollars bothered me so much. It's not the 20
dollars so much as I think they weren't honest.

As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it
is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of
phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from
company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that
their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for
everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS
will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.
Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better
product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do
fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?
You may not realize it but you are using VoIP pretty much every time you
use your telephone that is connected via copper lines. Pretty much all
signaling after the CO and sometimes before is digital.

So that's fine. It reinforces my question. Not removing the copper
doesn't change t he equation, and if FIOS can't compete with VOIP, is
more expensive or does less well or customers don't like it, why is it
wrong if VOIP wins and Fios losses?
Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.
That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to
promote them.

Obviously it is their problem. If they don't promote FiOS and loose most
of their customers how much do you think a plain copper line might cost?

It costs them NOTHING now. They have the wire in place adn they have
the central station equipment in place as long as anyone at the local
station is using copper.

I think it might be quite expensive if only 10% of the people on a block
have one .

We're at 98% now. When we get down to 20% we can make plans.

mm
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?
I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

On Sep 16, 1:00 am, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message

Even with "unlimited" long distance from Comcast here on their VOIP
service,
my total phone bills for local and long distance never approach the $ 48
plus a
month that Comcast wants as their "real" price for VOIP.

Seems to be a diffrence between digital phone and VOIP
By using known VoIP services you are using your current internet
connection to place a call over the internet using the internet
signal/bandwidth to transmit your call. This in turn can cause call quality
issues such as echo, crackling and voice hesitations. With MetroCast Digital
Phone service, your phone conversations will not be impacted by applications
which require the internet. By using a standard known as Quality of Service
(QOS) in the telecom industry, MetroCast is able to provide you with
reliable and quality Digital telephone service.



The VOIP guys claim that QOS fixes everything and makes it peechy
keen. It appears that today VOIP is much better than it was in say
2000. But in my experiences in talking with people who have it, it
still is not as reliable or of consistent voice quality that you get
with a landline.






I'd have to spend more than $ 23.00 on long distance at $ 0.025 /
minute --
more than 900 minutes - ~ 15 hours on long distance for VOIP to
make mere economic sense.

And with Comcast, I can't reach local police, fire and medical emergency
service on 911.

In most places now, you can reach them and they get the caller ID same a
dial tone.
This is from our local cable company
Safety and security is top priority and with Digital Phone service, you are
provided enhanced 911 service which sends your telephone number and address
information to a local 911 dispatcher if 911 is dialed from your home. If
there is a power outage, MetroCast Digital phone service and E911 access
will still be available due to a battery back up in the modem which is
installed in your home. Please keep in mind that cordless phones which plug
into an electrical outlet will not function during a power outage. Be sure
to have at least one corded phone in your home in case of a power outage.

*If there is a network outage or a downed cable line in your area, Digital
Phone service and E911 service may be interrupted until the necessary
repairs can be made. This is the same with your current telephone provider
today if your telephone drop was to be compromised in any way or there was a
system related problem in your provider's network.

Yes, the failure to work with 911 was a big problem until a couple of
years ago. My understanding also is that in most cases, it has now
been fixed and does work. But, I'm sure there are still some systems/
areas where it does not.




I don't see any economic benefit (Comcast is more expesive than my
current set up)
or technological benefit (no phone in a power outage, and we get lots of
power
outages from November through March) or service benefit (no 911 service on
Comcast) to Comcast VOIP.

Other areas of the country may have a different calculus, and other
folks may have
different calling patterns, but for me VOIP makes no sense.

I'll wait until it is actually here to decide, but I pay a lot for overall
phone service. Sure, the $99 is a come on, but I know one guy that is
saving about $75 a month on his phone with intrastate long distance charges.
That will vary, as does cable services selected etc. I won't consider a
change for $10 a month, but certainly will for $50+.



How much, if anything VOIP saves you depends on what services you have
and how you use them. If all you have is basic local service with
the phone company, make few long distance or intrastate toll calls,
etc, then there may not be much benefit to switching. It might
actually cost more in some cases, especially if the only service you
get is VOIP.

On the other hand, if you have some features like caller ID, call
waiting, call forwarding, etc, and make a lot of toll calls, then it
can save you quite a bit. The cable guys package it with their other
services, cable TV, internet. When you look at the package pricing,
which makes sense for a lot of people today, then the pricing
generally looks good compared to the phone company.

In article . com,
wrote:


Yes, the failure to work with 911 was a big problem until a couple of
years ago. My understanding also is that in most cases, it has now
been fixed and does work. But, I'm sure there are still some systems/
areas where it does not.


Kinda sorta. The way it works is that the software gives you the
ability to say where you are and then it will route it to the
(hopefully) correct 911 center. The problems include what happens if you
are somewhere other than home and forget to change your location (a
small but rather interesting subgroup). I haven't checked in the last
year or so, but last I did, it also did not include address information
in those areas that have enhanced 911. If you pass out or otherwise
can't communicate then they can't easily know where to send the help.
That may have changed recently.

On Sep 14, 12:48 am, mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

On Sep 14, 12:48 am, mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

Would say your friend is smart!

But; not only doing away with all copper lines!

Electricity! I'm all for 'living better electrically' as they used to
advertise some 40+ years ago. And when we built this house in 1970 we
did go 'All electric'.

One big advantage, still today, of POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service)
over copper wire from the telephone building or cabinet is that it
does not depend on modems, computers or electric power at your
premises! The small amount of electricity required to operate the
phone comes over those two thin copper wires.

The one and only time, for example, we have lost our phone service
here in over 40+ years (telephone plant is 95% overhead construction)
was when a drop wire to our house was damaged. With no digging the
telephone repair was fast and efficient, taking less than four hours,
out of service. Even recently our neighbour had loss of service due to
a cable pair fault; it was fixed next day. Many thanks to Aliant
Telecom, an Atlantic Canadian subsidiary of Bell Canada. Also see
note:

Traditional telephone companies typically (those still using say ATT/
Bell System standards) provide battery power back-up at their
locations; along the lines of a minimum of 8 busy hours (if they have
diesel generators) and 24 hour back-up, if ability to plug in an
external generator. These phone lines are often your only way of
reaching 911 etc. when we have those very infrequent power failures.

However the traditional telephone companies have been under intense
competition to cut costs by the newer companies who may not have that
history/tradition of service and who may be providing your TV cable/
internet and other 'added' services from cabinets mounted along the
street. Some of those systems use only AC power or at most have small
batteries in each cabinet which will only last a few hours at best.
With small decentralized battery installation it is cheaper to provide
service but there is less chance of recharging them until power is
restored to a whole area.

For example we have lost our cable TV service a few times even though
the electricity was still working on our street, because the power was
off at a cable TV cabinet several streets over! Glad we didn't get our
telephone service from them!

To see how you might fare personally during a power failure, turn off
your main circuit breaker and see which services (including some of
your phones?) are affected/lose service!

Note: Many of the more sophisticated phones (Call display, automatic
dial, message answering etc.) depend on being plugged into a standard
wall outlet. Some do have battery back up for any numbers stored,
others do not or the protective battery has long ago deterioriated. In
most cases that memory back-up battery does NOT operate the phone
itself.

IT IS THEREFORE A GOOD IDEA to have one very simple phone THAT DOES
NOT DEPEND ON ELECTRCITY TO OPERATE. In fact we have an older rotary
dial wall phone, which fascinantes a grandson who has never seen any
phone that doesn't have buttons! I must show him a magneto crank phone
one f these days!

BTW; if telephone service is essential; have a cell/mobile phone as
well; and keep it charged up! Especially during storms. But be
prepared for delays if/when a power failure occurs; there are not an
infinite number of channels at each cell/mobile site. A satellite
phone will also work, provided it is also charged up. But understand
minutes are expensive; which however may not be a concern during an
emergency.

SO: As long as the commercial AC in your area is reliable (to your
home) and the service providers have reasonable power back-up
provisioning policies we should be alright say 95% plus of the time.

But it's when that elderly relative has a stroke, and/or you are
trying get to a hospital or dial though to an emergency service, with
street and traffic lights not working due to power outages that one
realises that you can't take anything for granted!

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:10:56 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article . com,
wrote:


Yes, the failure to work with 911 was a big problem until a couple of
years ago. My understanding also is that in most cases, it has now
been fixed and does work. But, I'm sure there are still some systems/
areas where it does not.


Kinda sorta. The way it works is that the software gives you the
ability to say where you are and then it will route it to the
(hopefully) correct 911 center. The problems include what happens if you
are somewhere other than home and forget to change your location (a
small but rather interesting subgroup). I haven't checked in the last
year or so, but last I did, it also did not include address information
in those areas that have enhanced 911. If you pass out or otherwise
can't communicate then they can't easily know where to send the help.

This is not really a problem. They only have to reposition the
satellite, use both optical and thermal sensing, and do a Graham
projection of the area around the signal. Then they run a Gresham
algorithm to enhance the projection, run a Peterson progression to
align this with the topographic databases to allow for elevation and
triangulation, and then they just send an ambulance to the person
lying next to the laptop.

That may have changed recently.

Yes, I guess the procedure above is recent. I've been so deeply
involved it seems like decades.

I have FIOS. the ONT which convers the optical cable to standard DSL
like is outside on side of house.

The power supply is in the basement with a built in UPS that only
keeps the phone service working but you can plug this unit into a
larger UPS if you want, Doing so will keep the internet part working
too during a outage.

I have mixed feeling about FIOS the internet part works awesome
HOWEVER the phone side is much less reliable than copper and worse the
reps really dont care. We had SEVERE troubles and it took over a month
to get it fixed, the last 2 weeks I called daily and the trouble
effected the entire central office.

I will likely go VOIP it cant be any worse

during a real emergency cell service for most will automatically quit
working while first responders will still work.

duriung such a emergency 911 calls still function

wrote in message
oups.com...
during a real emergency cell service for most will automatically quit
working while first responders will still work.

duriung such a emergency 911 calls still function

Only up to a point. True, the 'first responder' programmed phones will not
pre-empt 911 calls like they do normal calls, but the system simply doesn't
have the capacity for every cell user to make a call at once. Neither does
the hardwired land-line system (which is still involved in most cell
connections), or the 911 switches and consoles, or the pipe from them to the
telco, which is a choke point for both types of calls. In any major
disaster, voice service at a minimum bogs down, and ofter goes out entirely
for hours or days. They did note, during the recent unpleasantness down
south a couple years ago, that text service often holds out longer than
voice service. Less bandwidth needed, and (I suspect), people simply don't
think to use it. When people are upset or panicked, they want to hear a
human voice telling them things will be all right.

aem sends....

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:17:40 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:52:56 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:

So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.

I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the
phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house.

Maybe you are out of touch with people who have less money than you
do. We have millions, maybe 10's of millions of home buyers who
learned what happens when the interest on their mortgage goes up, and
learned that they can't buy as big a home that they might want, or
spend another 500 dollars a year on this, and 500 on that, and on
that.

I heard other study on the radio a day or two ago, that when Pell
grants are lowered just 100 or 200, that one can notice the students
who drop out of college, because they and their parents have already
stetched to the limit to come up with the money they are spending for
college with the full Pell grant.

This is not special to to house buying or college. My brother makes a
good living, thank God, and what he does is buy whatever he needs and
puts the rest in a savings account. When he has enough, he buys a
stock or a bond. But most people have a budget, even a written
budget, and they try to stick to it.


Not understanding what this has to do with the discussion. Lets say you

My brother has a lot of money** but not everyone does. The rest have
to try not to spend too much.

**One reason my brother has a lot of money is that he doesn't buy
everything that is for sale. Aside from travel and restaurants, he
doesn't spend much more than our father did.

have FiOS in an apartment you own and across town you have another
apartment with cable carrying TV/data/phone the same as FiOS. When
someone moves in it is up to them to decide what if anything they wish
to purchase. In either case they could get phone or TV or data or
*nothing*.

If you get Fios and you let them take out your copper, or they do it
without telilng you, the person who moves in doesn't get to decide
what to purchase. For a phone line, he has to get cable or fios.



And all of those people have a price point. A price above which they
will not buy. Regardless of how low or high it is, even if it is
higher than it should be for their income, they have one.

Car dealers and other vendors know that "throwing in" some little
cheap almost worthless feature can make a sale. Maybe not as common,
but insisting on selling the buyer an undesirer feature can queer a
sale.
.....

I don't
understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for
cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the
provider?

You just agreed in your previous reply to me that FIOS costs a lot
more. So I don't understand the point of your question.

I agreed it cost more for them to install.

That certainly wasn't clear, but maybe we've had a partial
misunderstanding:

You said:
As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in
I said:
Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?
You said:
Sure,
I said:
So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good.

So, who pays the much higher installation charge?

And, doesn't it cost more for Fios monthly than what they are charging
me now?

On Sep 16, 4:42 pm, " wrote:
I have FIOS. the ONT which convers the optical cable to standard DSL
like is outside on side of house.

The power supply is in the basement with a built in UPS that only
keeps the phone service working but you can plug this unit into a
larger UPS if you want, Doing so will keep the internet part working
too during a outage.


Do you have any experience with how long the FIOS battery backup
lasts? Verizon says it lasts "up to 8 hours". But it's unclear if
that means 8 hours without any phone calls, with some phone calls, or
8 hours of talk time. I'm guessing it probably means 8 hours with
very little use.





I have mixed feeling about FIOS the internet part works awesome
HOWEVER the phone side is much less reliable than copper and worse the
reps really dont care. We had SEVERE troubles and it took over a month
to get it fixed, the last 2 weeks I called daily and the trouble
effected the entire central office.

I will likely go VOIP it cant be any worse

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:42:47 -0700, wrote:

On Sep 16, 4:42 pm, " wrote:
I have FIOS. the ONT which convers the optical cable to standard DSL
like is outside on side of house.

The power supply is in the basement with a built in UPS that only
keeps the phone service working but you can plug this unit into a
larger UPS if you want, Doing so will keep the internet part working
too during a outage.


Do you have any experience with how long the FIOS battery backup
lasts? Verizon says it lasts "up to 8 hours". But it's unclear if
that means 8 hours without any phone calls, with some phone calls, or
8 hours of talk time. I'm guessing it probably means 8 hours with
very little use.

That makes sense, because if it lasted for 8 hours of talking, they'd
probably say it lasted up to 24 hours.

Somewhat similar is that in the last 30 years almost everyone has
started saying that if something goes from 100 to 400 that it is 4
times greater, when it is only 3 times greater and 4 times as great.



I have mixed feeling about FIOS the internet part works awesome
HOWEVER the phone side is much less reliable than copper and worse the
reps really dont care. We had SEVERE troubles and it took over a month
to get it fixed, the last 2 weeks I called daily and the trouble
effected the entire central office.

I will likely go VOIP it cant be any worse

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:38:46 -0400, mm
wrote:

[snip]


That makes sense, because if it lasted for 8 hours of talking, they'd
probably say it lasted up to 24 hours.

Also, "up to" specifies no lower limit, so 10 milliseconds still
counts as "up to" 24 hours.


Somewhat similar is that in the last 30 years almost everyone has
started saying that if something goes from 100 to 400 that it is 4
times greater, when it is only 3 times greater and 4 times as great.


A very common problem, which I hear often. Because of that I get
suspicious whenever I hear sometinng like "__ times __er than __" (as
in 3 times bigger, 4 times longer, etc...).

There's also "this bulb uses 200% less electricity than normal bulbs".
What is that supposed to mean?

[snip]
--
99 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message
from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive,
please ignore it. If you don't know how to
ignore a posting, complain to me and I will
demonstrate."

On Sep 15, 2:28 pm, larry wrote:

Update! The large Central Office battery rooms are shrinking
fast:
Unless they are doing a complete change-out, the rooms change very
little. There is a massive amount of copper busswork that has to be
moved/ reconfigured.

Solid state equipment is more power efficient.
Switch-mode rectifiers offer more bells and whistles, but the old
ferros are built like a tank and have been known to survive lightning.

CO's are now unmanned.
Some COs are unmanned. Those that are have significant remote
monitoring instead, sometimes including video.

CO only has 12-24 hr battery.
Depends on load.

CO has no generator.
Some COs have no generators. Critical sites can have multiple gen
sets.

Lead and sulfuric acid are banned or hazmat.
It may be haz mat, but the old wet cells are can provide 20+ years of
service. By the way, the VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) batteries
used in many cell sites & remotes contain the same hazardous
chemicals.

FIOS CO are unmanned serviced by roving groups of techs

I believe the battery backup is good for a hour or two tops of
continious talk time, and the internet part dies immediately when
power fails.

The latest from Verizon, if you dont have a phone line as part of the
fios line pay over 10 bucks a month more.......

got the letter today......

On Sep 17, 4:15 pm, " wrote:
FIOS CO are unmanned serviced by roving groups of techs

I believe thebatterybackup is good for a hour or two tops of
continious talk time, and the internet part dies immediately when
power fails.

The latest from Verizon, if you dont have a phone line as part of the
fios line pay over 10 bucks a month more.......

got the letter today......

The use a 12V 7Ah battery for back up. When the battery is new one
should get about 84 Whr of power. Depending upon what load it will
last differently. When the battery gets older obviously it goest down.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:13:19 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:38:46 -0400, mm
wrote:

[snip]


That makes sense, because if it lasted for 8 hours of talking, they'd
probably say it lasted up to 24 hours.

Also, "up to" specifies no lower limit, so 10 milliseconds still
counts as "up to" 24 hours.


Somewhat similar is that in the last 30 years almost everyone has
started saying that if something goes from 100 to 400 that it is 4
times greater, when it is only 3 times greater and 4 times as great.


A very common problem, which I hear often. Because of that I get
suspicious whenever I hear sometinng like "__ times __er than __" (as
in 3 times bigger, 4 times longer, etc...).

If they don't know arithmetic, or they don't know English, how good
could they be anyhow?

There's also "this bulb uses 200% less electricity than normal bulbs".
What is that supposed to mean?

I guess you get to sell it back to the grid. Gotta get me some of
those.

[snip]