A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Sep 13, 11:07?pm, willshak wrote:
on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:

A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

its true, verizon is spending billions, and pushing to convert
everyone to fibre. once you get fios you can never go back to copper.

I am very sorry I supposedly upgraded from DSL to FIOS, the internet
portion is great but I have had serious long lasting bad phone
troubles, and they really dont care about poor phone service.

If I had to to do over again i would of kept with DSL

after weeks of calling at the end multiple times daily they finally
had a network tech troubleshoot and fix the problem that effected our
central office, a noisey bad T1 router.

it shouldnt of taken over a month to fix it and I am so ****ed I have
thought about dropping that line altogether.

their service sucks

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:07:01 -0400, willshak
wrote:

on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

Around here, Verizon IS the owner of the phone lines. Verizon is the
phone company. (TPC in "The President's Analyst" a movie that could
have been great, but iirc wasn't.)

No one is taking out cable. If my use of "copper" seemed to include
cable, I apologize. But the only phone service avaialble on cable is
VOIP iiuc, and not everyone wants that. Not me.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:07:01 -0400, willshak
wrote:

on 9/13/2007 10:48 PM mm said the following:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I would think that the telephone and cable tv companies would have
something to say about who can remove their equipment.

Around here, Verizon IS the owner of the phone lines. Verizon is the
phone company. (TPC in "The President's Analyst" a movie that could
have been great, but iirc wasn't.)

No one is taking out cable. If my use of "copper" seemed to include
cable, I apologize. But the only phone service avaialble on cable is
VOIP iiuc, and not everyone wants that. Not me.

-The President's Analyst was a very clever movie. If you haven't seen it
you should.

As for OP, once copper or fiber enters your space, it's yours. Not theirs.

I can't imagine any provider physically removing anything, anyhow. Except
for some termination device, maybe.

ng_reader wrote:


As for OP, once copper or fiber enters your space, it's yours. Not theirs.

I can't imagine any provider physically removing anything, anyhow. Except
for some termination device, maybe.


Back in Green decision and deregulation, ma bell tried that
(it's OUR cable and devices).

But changed their mind real fast when the lawsuits rolled in
for damages to the building, both inside and out ;-)

walls, wallcoverings, flooring, siding, walkways etc...

If it's attached to your property, it's yours. but if it's
attached to a surface they provided, it's their's except for
the surface- which you get to keep. think plywood or
synthetic mounting board.

-larry / dallas

On Sep 13, 10:48 pm, mm wrote:

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

If I am buying a house, the last thing on my mind would be whether or
not it has a copper phone line. It's not going to make or break a
sale.

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,


On Sep 14, 4:37 am, Mikepier wrote:
On Sep 13, 10:48 pm, mm wrote:

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

If I am buying a house, the last thing on my mind would be whether or
not it has a copper phone line. It's not going to make or break a
sale.

In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,

Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.

--
Seth Goodman

Seth Goodman wrote:
In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,

Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.


Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you. An example
of what is in them is he

http://tinyurl.com/2e6z9d

They have some BFB's, (Big Freaking Batteries)

[8~{} Uncle Monster

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:54:46 -0500, Uncle Monster
wrote:

Seth Goodman wrote:
In article m, on Fri,
14 Sep 2007 04:03:42 -0700, wrote:

If you avoid the ripoff bundled services and keep standard phone line
you will still have copper. I would only get internet and TV over
FIOS,

Step 1 of *any* Verizon FIOS install is to move your phone line(s) from
copper to fiber, even if you're not changing your phone service. I've
read reports that a few people were able to convince the installer to
leave the copper in place, but I don't think that's official Verizon
policy.

Another reason not to go off copper:

If you have FIOS, during a power outage, the battery in your network
interface box is your only backup. Two hours or so in, you'll lose
phone service. The old copper lines are mostly backed up by generators
at the central office. I've never lost phone service during a power
outage.


Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you. An example
of what is in them is he

http://tinyurl.com/2e6z9d

They have some BFB's, (Big Freaking Batteries)

[8~{} Uncle Monster

I got to see the (phone co. battery room) in Fort Worth about 25 years
ago. They had a lot of big batteries, some of which came out of old
submarines.
--
102 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message
from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive,
please ignore it. If you don't know how to
ignore a posting, complain to me and I will
demonstrate."

Uncle Monster wrote:

Correction, the main backup at phone company central offices
is banks of batteries. There are generators but the battery
banks can keep the phone service up for days. If anyone wants
to know about storage batteries, the phone companies have a
great deal of knowledge and experience. The battery rooms at
at phone company central offices would astound you.

Update! The large Central Office battery rooms are shrinking
fast:
Solid state equipment is more power efficient.
CO's are now unmanned.
CO only has 12-24 hr battery.
CO has no generator.
Lead and sulfuric acid are banned or hazmat.

It's much more cost effective to pull up a portable 50KW
Onan at the CO building and "plug" into the charger buss.
One portable can easily support a dozen COs during long,
wide area power outages and "parked" where needed.

The cell sites work the same way.

The phone companies are quietly doing away with the massive
lead liability they had. Find a piece of lead jacketed phone
cable these days, and figure the tons of lead leached from
aerial cable.

Your copper phone line is now powered from a local
neighborhood fiber fed "hut" or RemoteTerminal and a few
automotive sized batteries. It's not a big city thing
either, rural Adams County Pa now has many more RTs than COs!

All this new fiber stuff is moving the RT and terrabits to
your back door ;-)

-larry / dallas

"mm" wrote

A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

They aren't supposed to do that without your permissioin.
Verizon has gotten into trouble for doing that in central
Jersey. If I was to get FIOS, I would make damned sure they
didn't pull a fast one like that.

nancy

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I hear they like to take out the copper but everything in your house is
yours so you just tell them not to. I have Comcast cable and internet
but still have old Verizon phones. I had choice of Comcast or Verizon
but was reticent to hook up with the "phone company" who has always had
atrocious service. Also don't want all my eggs in one basket.

Frank

Frank wrote:
mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.
So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I hear they like to take out the copper but everything in your house is
yours so you just tell them not to.

They don't touch the interior phone wiring except for disconnecting it
from the old NID and connecting it to the new adapter they install.


I have Comcast cable and internet
but still have old Verizon phones. I had choice of Comcast or Verizon
but was reticent to hook up with the "phone company" who has always had
atrocious service. Also don't want all my eggs in one basket.

Frank

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:54:46 -0400, Frank
frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I hear they like to take out the copper but everything in your house is
yours

Maybe, maybe not.` Ng_reader said the same thing, but I don't know
why you people think that. Used to be, people leased their phone,
even though it say on their own table or was screwed to their own
wall.

You can lease furniture, you can lease a piano, you can rent an
electric wheelchair, you can rent a tuxedo and put it in your closet.
Why would you assume that everything in your house is yours, without
reading the terms of service, which probably vary from state to state,
and which can probably change on 30 days notice published at the
public utility commission and posted on the internet at
www.who-looks-there?

so you just tell them not to.

Maybe, but I woudl stand over them from start to finish. A) It's hard
to tell if someone is listening when you're talking. B) Even if they
say OK, I won't take them out, they can deny later that they said it.
C) They can say they said it but they forgot. They can actually
forget. They can schedule you for replacement copper and never show
up, and how long will

You never can tell what people will do when you're not looking.

I have Comcast cable and internet
but still have old Verizon phones. I had choice of Comcast or Verizon
but was reticent to hook up with the "phone company" who has always had
atrocious service. Also don't want all my eggs in one basket.

Frank

I converted everything to fios (TV, internet, phone) some months ago.

the installer left the copper in place and said I should leave it because I
might want to change phone companies later.

live in Texas.
"mm" wrote in message
news A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:17 GMT, "newman"
wrote:

I converted everything to fios (TV, internet, phone) some months ago.

the installer left the copper in place and said I should leave it because I
might want to change phone companies later.

live in Texas.
"mm" wrote in message
news A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?


The phone here is with Verizon, in east Texas. We don't have FIOS
available yet (not overpopulated enough).

The cable system does offer phone, although I decided against it for
similar reasons.

[snip]

--
102 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message
from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive,
please ignore it. If you don't know how to
ignore a posting, complain to me and I will
demonstrate."

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:17 GMT, "newman"
wrote:

I converted everything to fios (TV, internet, phone) some months ago.

the installer left the copper in place and said I should leave it because I
might want to change phone companies later.

live in Texas.

Is this Verizon in Texas, or another company? It's another company, I
think.

My friend and I are in Maryland, but I know Verizon is in a lot of
states north of here.

Sometimes the same company has different policies in different places.
My brother got cable internet in Dallas, Comcast I think, and the free
install wouldn't put it in the room he wanted (which was the hardest
room). When I got back here, the guy at the comcast booth at a hamfest
said in Baltiomre that they would put int in any room you wanted, for
the free install, even if it required work. He knew I was just
chatting, and not a customer so he had little reason to lie, and
that's what he said.


"mm" wrote in message
news A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

George wrote:

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Power outage.

Copper phone lines provide electrical power (driven by central
generators) so you can still use simple phones when the power goes out.

Fiber to the home means you're relying on battery-backup.

I lived on the East coast during the big blackout, had no power for a
few days. Some people were without power for multiple weeks....I'm
guessing their battery backup won't power the phones for that long.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
George wrote:

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I
don't see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or
fiber. Or in the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would
it matter to you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Power outage.

Copper phone lines provide electrical power (driven by central
generators) so you can still use simple phones when the power goes out.

Fiber to the home means you're relying on battery-backup.

I lived on the East coast during the big blackout, had no power for a
few days. Some people were without power for multiple weeks....I'm
guessing their battery backup won't power the phones for that long.

Chris

You can address that but adding your own UPS. The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.

On Sep 14, 6:01 pm, George wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
George wrote:

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I
don't see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or
fiber. Or in the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would
it matter to you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

Power outage.

Copper phone lines provide electrical power (driven by central
generators) so you can still use simple phones when the power goes out.

Fiber to the home means you're relying on battery-backup.

I lived on the East coast during the big blackout, had no power for a
few days. Some people were without power for multiple weeks....I'm
guessing their battery backup won't power the phones for that long.

Chris

You can address that but adding your own UPS.

It's not clear to me that you can add a UPS with FIOS. You can do it
with with some of the cable VOIP solutions, where they essentially
give you a kit that has the VOIP hardware and you just plug it in to
AC and coonect to the cable. With FIOS, where is the box located
that converts the traditional phone signal into VOIP? If it's in
some box under Verizon's control, then you may not be able to hook a
UPS to it. Anyone know what Verizon's position is on what happens
when the AC goes out in your neighborhood?

Plus, a UPS is just another level of complexity and eqpt to worry
about. Like, do you think grandma wants to deal with it?




The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote:

You can address that but adding your own UPS.

It's not clear to me that you can add a UPS with FIOS. You can do it
with with some of the cable VOIP solutions, where they essentially
give you a kit that has the VOIP hardware and you just plug it in to
AC and coonect to the cable. With FIOS, where is the box located
that converts the traditional phone signal into VOIP? If it's in
some box under Verizon's control, then you may not be able to hook a
UPS to it. Anyone know what Verizon's position is on what happens
when the AC goes out in your neighborhood?


You simply unplug it from the wall outlet and plug it into the UPS.


Plus, a UPS is just another level of complexity and eqpt to worry
about. Like, do you think grandma wants to deal with it?


It isn't much more involved than plugging in a toaster and besides thats
what the grandkids are for.


As I said if it doesn't happen people will be wondering why their
"basic" comcast bill is $250.00/month.





The phone company pretty
much has to do what they are doing and it is a good thing. If they don't
build out fiber and add services the cable companies will take their
core business away because they can offer VoIP over their existing cable
system.

Consider what sort of (non) competitive situation it would be if cable
companies were the only providers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.


I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office
that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is
required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?

As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

mm wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office
that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is
required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?
As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

Sure, but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable
companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.
Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.



the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:12:13 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0400, George
wrote:

mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

I am no fan of phone companies but I don't see the point. FiOS is fiber
to the premise. They can run anything on it including phone service. So
there is little point for them to maintain a dual plant system of both
fiber optic and copper cabling.

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office
that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is
required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?
As a subscriber you buy a service. If you buy dial tone service I don't
see why it would matter if it were provisioned on copper or fiber. Or in

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

Sure,

So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.

but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there
are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by
normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or
none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone
connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or
even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to
maintain.

As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it
is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of
phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from
company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that
their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for
everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS
will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better
product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do
fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to
promote them.

mm

the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

mm wrote:


So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all
people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I
have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow
them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences
of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I
won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent
need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my
house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and
antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and
risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for
FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything
cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are
paying a lot less for phone.


I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the
phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house. I don't
understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for
cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the
provider?

but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there
are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by
normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or
none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone
connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or
even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to
maintain.

You are completely missing the big picture. You have to plan far out
into the future for this kind of stuff. The phone company can't simply
sit on its hands and then one day wake up and realize that they lost 85%
of their customers to the cable companies. My buddy works for one of the
big cable companies and they can't even come close to addressing the
demand for their phone service. And the cable company install is about
5% (or less) of the complexity of a FiOS install.



As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it
is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of
phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from
company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that
their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for
everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS
will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better
product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do
fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

You may not realize it but you are using VoIP pretty much every time you
use your telephone that is connected via copper lines. Pretty much all
signaling after the CO and sometimes before is digital.



Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it
for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system
to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone
service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar
bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to
promote them.


Obviously it is their problem. If they don't promote FiOS and loose most
of their customers how much do you think a plain copper line might cost?
I think it might be quite expensive if only 10% of the people on a block
have one .


mm
the case of DSL you are buying broadband data. Why would it matter to
you if it came via DSL on copper or over fiber?
I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any
improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power
failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios,
even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity
except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is
out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more
than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

mm wrote:

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the
phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince
you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some
would want to remove all the building codes and let people build
anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses
that resulted.

It's "Libertarians" that believe nothing should be regulated. We
conservatives think some things should be: the border, terrorists, and,
er..., maybe something else. As for building codes etc., the government
could, perhaps, mandate insurance to cover any losses (as they do with auto
liability insurance) and then let people build - or drive - any old way they
want.

I live in a city with no zoning and it works out swell.

On Sep 14, 12:48 am, mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

On Sep 14, 12:48 am, mm wrote:
A friend tells me tonight that if you subscribe to FIOS from Verizon,
at least when you use it for everything you have (tv, internet, phone,
or any subset) when they install the optical cable, they take out your
copper.

So that you can never go back.

He says that even if you sell your house, the new owner can't get
simple copper phone or DSL line, unless he pays someone privately to
reinstall the copper wires.

That's why my friend kept a simple phone line, and didn't get VOIP.

That's what he says, and he's no dummy. Does anyone think he's wrong?

Is Verizon only in the mid-atlantic, or the northeast?

(Missa, this would explain why it is worth it to dig those trenches
and holes to run lines where there are few or no subscribers. Talk to
me later.)

Would say your friend is smart!

But; not only doing away with all copper lines!

Electricity! I'm all for 'living better electrically' as they used to
advertise some 40+ years ago. And when we built this house in 1970 we
did go 'All electric'.

One big advantage, still today, of POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service)
over copper wire from the telephone building or cabinet is that it
does not depend on modems, computers or electric power at your
premises! The small amount of electricity required to operate the
phone comes over those two thin copper wires.

The one and only time, for example, we have lost our phone service
here in over 40+ years (telephone plant is 95% overhead construction)
was when a drop wire to our house was damaged. With no digging the
telephone repair was fast and efficient, taking less than four hours,
out of service. Even recently our neighbour had loss of service due to
a cable pair fault; it was fixed next day. Many thanks to Aliant
Telecom, an Atlantic Canadian subsidiary of Bell Canada. Also see
note:

Traditional telephone companies typically (those still using say ATT/
Bell System standards) provide battery power back-up at their
locations; along the lines of a minimum of 8 busy hours (if they have
diesel generators) and 24 hour back-up, if ability to plug in an
external generator. These phone lines are often your only way of
reaching 911 etc. when we have those very infrequent power failures.

However the traditional telephone companies have been under intense
competition to cut costs by the newer companies who may not have that
history/tradition of service and who may be providing your TV cable/
internet and other 'added' services from cabinets mounted along the
street. Some of those systems use only AC power or at most have small
batteries in each cabinet which will only last a few hours at best.
With small decentralized battery installation it is cheaper to provide
service but there is less chance of recharging them until power is
restored to a whole area.

For example we have lost our cable TV service a few times even though
the electricity was still working on our street, because the power was
off at a cable TV cabinet several streets over! Glad we didn't get our
telephone service from them!

To see how you might fare personally during a power failure, turn off
your main circuit breaker and see which services (including some of
your phones?) are affected/lose service!

Note: Many of the more sophisticated phones (Call display, automatic
dial, message answering etc.) depend on being plugged into a standard
wall outlet. Some do have battery back up for any numbers stored,
others do not or the protective battery has long ago deterioriated. In
most cases that memory back-up battery does NOT operate the phone
itself.

IT IS THEREFORE A GOOD IDEA to have one very simple phone THAT DOES
NOT DEPEND ON ELECTRCITY TO OPERATE. In fact we have an older rotary
dial wall phone, which fascinantes a grandson who has never seen any
phone that doesn't have buttons! I must show him a magneto crank phone
one f these days!

BTW; if telephone service is essential; have a cell/mobile phone as
well; and keep it charged up! Especially during storms. But be
prepared for delays if/when a power failure occurs; there are not an
infinite number of channels at each cell/mobile site. A satellite
phone will also work, provided it is also charged up. But understand
minutes are expensive; which however may not be a concern during an
emergency.

SO: As long as the commercial AC in your area is reliable (to your
home) and the service providers have reasonable power back-up
provisioning policies we should be alright say 95% plus of the time.

But it's when that elderly relative has a stroke, and/or you are
trying get to a hospital or dial though to an emergency service, with
street and traffic lights not working due to power outages that one
realises that you can't take anything for granted!