In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power (around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power (around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

What do you mean "on one leg"? I'm assuming that the power to both the A/C
and dryer is 220V.

On Jun 20, 6:50 pm, "H" wrote:
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power (around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H
I assume you have two 40A double pole breakers side by side, is this
correct? 11V L1 to L2? 11V L1 or L2 to N? Please provide some more
details.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
m...
"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

What do you mean "on one leg"? I'm assuming that the power to both the
A/C and dryer is 220V.


On a 240V circuit, each leg is 120V (or more).

"Eric9822" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jun 20, 6:50 pm, "H" wrote:
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H
I assume you have two 40A double pole breakers side by side, is this
correct? 11V L1 to L2? 11V L1 or L2 to N? Please provide some more
details.


Yes, there are two 40A double pole breakers side by side.

On both, at the breaker, it's 240V on both.

At the other end of the line, it's around 80V (combined) on both. One leg
has 127V, the other measures between 11V and 18V.

H wrote:
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power (around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Only way I can imagine this happening simultaneously is if one
transformer phase on the utility pole went out. Have a look at your
power meter - is the disk turning at all? If you feel safe doing so and
have a decent voltmeter, you could open the service panel and check for
voltage between the bus bars. Check each bus bar to the neutral line,
and to each other; there should be 115 volts between each phase and
neutral, and 230 between the two bus bars.

If there's not, you have a problem. My own inclination would be next to
check at the terminals right on the master breaker, if they're
accessible (not easy on some designs), on the house side; if you still
have a loss of voltage, then I'd check on the other side of the breaker.
If the problem exists on both sides of the breaker, call the hydro
company. If the supply side is good but the service panel side isn't,
call your favourite electrician.

WARNING: Don't do this if you are at all unsure of what you're doing!
Wear electrical safety gloves rated to at least 1000 V, long-sleeved
shirt and trousers (sleeves rolled down), rubber-soled boots and stand
on a piece of rubber mat while you do this. Have someone stand by with a
3 or 4-foot length of wood - 2x2 will do nicely; if you have an
unfinished (i.e., not varnished or painted) wooden cane, even better.
Their job will be to knock you clear of the panel if something happens
and you accidentally contact something.

Sorry if this is stuff you already know, but better safe than sorry -
and it may be of use to others.

Yours aye,
W. Underhill
(who, the other day, proved the axiom that familiarity breeds contempt
and as a result was bitten by 440 V on an auxiliary relay...)
--
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/

"William Underhill" wrote in message
news:Hblei.44579$1i1.10413@pd7urf3no...
H wrote:
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Only way I can imagine this happening simultaneously is if one transformer
phase on the utility pole went out. Have a look at your power meter - is
the disk turning at all? If you feel safe doing so and have a decent
voltmeter, you could open the service panel and check for voltage between
the bus bars. Check each bus bar to the neutral line, and to each other;
there should be 115 volts between each phase and neutral, and 230 between
the two bus bars.

If there's not, you have a problem. My own inclination would be next to
check at the terminals right on the master breaker, if they're accessible
(not easy on some designs), on the house side; if you still have a loss of
voltage, then I'd check on the other side of the breaker. If the problem
exists on both sides of the breaker, call the hydro company. If the supply
side is good but the service panel side isn't, call your favourite
electrician.

WARNING: Don't do this if you are at all unsure of what you're doing! Wear
electrical safety gloves rated to at least 1000 V, long-sleeved shirt and
trousers (sleeves rolled down), rubber-soled boots and stand on a piece of
rubber mat while you do this. Have someone stand by with a 3 or 4-foot
length of wood - 2x2 will do nicely; if you have an unfinished (i.e., not
varnished or painted) wooden cane, even better. Their job will be to knock
you clear of the panel if something happens and you accidentally contact
something.

Sorry if this is stuff you already know, but better safe than sorry - and
it may be of use to others.

Yours aye,
W. Underhill

Well, I do know what I am doing around a breaker panel, but I had an
electrician anyway testing the breakers. They are working perfectly. Full
power on the business leads of the double breaker. The other end (at the
dryer and A/C) is where the problems manifest themselves.

One thing of possible import: I am having a new room added to the back of
the house, and an electrician ran a new wire into the breaker panel, though
he did it rather blind (he could not see exactly where the drill came out in
the basement.

It seemed to me that had he hit the 240V line, sparks (or something) would
fly. None of that happened. But, if he had nicked both 240V lines, would
that explain the power loss (which is not total)?

It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just loosing
11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole of each of
those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main breaker or the entire
service. In a modern breaker panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one
leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power (around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just loosing
11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole of each of
those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main breaker or the entire
service. In a modern breaker panel, there is pretty much no way to loose
one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole of
each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main breaker or
the entire service. In a modern breaker panel, there is pretty much no
way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole of
each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main breaker or
the entire service. In a modern breaker panel, there is pretty much no
way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for
the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker, but
something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the reading
across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole of
each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main breaker or
the entire service. In a modern breaker panel, there is pretty much no
way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for
the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker, but
something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the reading
across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole
of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main
breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker panel, there is
pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for
the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or existing?
are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker, but
something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the reading
across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole
of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main
breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker panel, there is
pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for
the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or existing?
are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker, but
something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the reading
across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one pole
of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the main
breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker panel, there is
pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is
for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and airconditioner
continuous, or are there junction boxes



"H" wrote in message
news:Axlei.6624$%t6.2530@trnddc02...
Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker,
but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the
reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one
pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the
main breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker panel,
there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is
for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
simultaneously?

H

In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
exactly where they go.

Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
simultaneously failed.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and airconditioner
continuous, or are there junction boxes



"H" wrote in message
news:Axlei.6624$%t6.2530@trnddc02...
Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker,
but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the
reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker. Just
loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost one
pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of the
main breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker panel,
there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is
for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c
work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
simultaneously?

H

It sounds like you lost one leg of each cable, but I can't imagine how that
could have happened. At this point you'd need to disconnect each cable from
the breaker and at the load end, and do a continuity test to verify each
conductor



"H" wrote in message
news:2Blei.6625$%t6.1633@trnddc02...
In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
exactly where they go.

Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
simultaneously failed.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and airconditioner
continuous, or are there junction boxes



"H" wrote in message
news:Axlei.6624$%t6.2530@trnddc02...
Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about
5 years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker,
but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the
reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker.
Just loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost
one pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of
the main breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker
panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two
breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is
for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c
work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
simultaneously?

H

Already done, and there is continuity, but the power down the "bad" leg is
bad.

I'll tear apart the wall near where the electrician ran the new wire, and
see if he possibly nicked both of the lines.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one leg of each cable, but I can't imagine how
that could have happened. At this point you'd need to disconnect each
cable from the breaker and at the load end, and do a continuity test to
verify each conductor



"H" wrote in message
news:2Blei.6625$%t6.1633@trnddc02...
In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
exactly where they go.

Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
simultaneously failed.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and airconditioner
continuous, or are there junction boxes



"H" wrote in message
news:Axlei.6624$%t6.2530@trnddc02...
Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about
5 years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker,
but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the
reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is
fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker.
Just loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost
one pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of
the main breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker
panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two
breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One
is for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c
work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
simultaneously?

H

Even if he cut 99 percent through a wire, you'd still get a full voltage
reading . The dryer or airconditioner wouldn't work, but the no load reading
would indicate full voltage. The most puzzling thing is that its affecting
two independent cables and breakers. In the real world, that just doesn't
happen. let us know what you find. Good luck



"H" wrote in message
news:zGlei.6627$%t6.4161@trnddc02...
Already done, and there is continuity, but the power down the "bad" leg is
bad.

I'll tear apart the wall near where the electrician ran the new wire, and
see if he possibly nicked both of the lines.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one leg of each cable, but I can't imagine how
that could have happened. At this point you'd need to disconnect each
cable from the breaker and at the load end, and do a continuity test to
verify each conductor



"H" wrote in message
news:2Blei.6625$%t6.1633@trnddc02...
In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
exactly where they go.

Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
simultaneously failed.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and
airconditioner continuous, or are there junction boxes



"H" wrote in message
news:Axlei.6624$%t6.2530@trnddc02...
Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is
about 5 years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the
breaker, but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What
exactly is the reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the
AC?


"H" wrote in message
news:Znlei.6622$%t6.1916@trnddc02...
I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
soon.

Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is
fine.

The problem is at the other end of the line.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
indicated?



"H" wrote in message
news:Lilei.6619$%t6.5626@trnddc02...
Both breakers are working perfectly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker.
Just loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you
lost one pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one
leg of the main breaker or the entire service. In a modern
breaker panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of
just two breakers




"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One
is for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor
a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
simultaneously?

H

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 02:39:28 GMT, "H" wrote:

Have you measured the voltage at the output of the breakers, in the
breaker box, when the AC and dryer are attempting to run?

Are the bad voltages you've given us at the receptacles? Or somewhere
else nearby? And are they when the AC and dryer are attempting to
run, or when they are OFF?

Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
years old (after a heavy up).

They may be, but it bothers me that you keep saying they are both
wroking perfectly. AFAICT, all you have done is measure the voltage at
the output end of the breakers. There is more to working perfectly
than that. Like, Do they both trip at right current?

Not that any other problem would necessarily be related to the problem
you're posting about, and not that I can help you much with it, but on
principle and practice it bothers me that you keep saying they are
working *perfectly*. It also makes me think you are vulnerable to
missing something.

H wrote:

Well, I do know what I am doing around a breaker panel, but I had an
electrician anyway testing the breakers. They are working perfectly.
Full power on the business leads of the double breaker. The other
end (at the dryer and A/C) is where the problems manifest themselves.

One thing of possible import: I am having a new room added to the
back of the house, and an electrician ran a new wire into the breaker
panel, though he did it rather blind (he could not see exactly where
the drill came out in the basement.

It seemed to me that had he hit the 240V line, sparks (or something)
would fly. None of that happened. But, if he had nicked both 240V
lines, would that explain the power loss (which is not total)?

Not if he cut the neutral or ground.

Open up the hole and see what he did.

In article , "HeyBub" wrote:
H wrote:

Well, I do know what I am doing around a breaker panel, but I had an
electrician anyway testing the breakers. They are working perfectly.
Full power on the business leads of the double breaker. The other
end (at the dryer and A/C) is where the problems manifest themselves.

One thing of possible import: I am having a new room added to the
back of the house, and an electrician ran a new wire into the breaker
panel, though he did it rather blind (he could not see exactly where
the drill came out in the basement.

It seemed to me that had he hit the 240V line, sparks (or something)
would fly. None of that happened. But, if he had nicked both 240V
lines, would that explain the power loss (which is not total)?

Not if he cut the neutral or ground.

Of course, if he had hit either the neutral or the ground, that wouldn't
affect the voltages on the hot legs...


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

H wrote:
"Eric9822" wrote in message
ps.com...

On Jun 20, 6:50 pm, "H" wrote:

In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

I assume you have two 40A double pole breakers side by side, is this
correct? 11V L1 to L2? 11V L1 or L2 to N? Please provide some more
details.



Yes, there are two 40A double pole breakers side by side.

On both, at the breaker, it's 240V on both.

At the other end of the line, it's around 80V (combined) on both. One leg
has 127V, the other measures between 11V and 18V.




You still aren't telling us specifically where you are putting your
voltmeter leads to measure those voltages.

And, are you using an "electronic" voltmeter subject to displaying
voltages developed across its input impedance by microamp sized
capacitively coupled currents, or are you using a lower impedance analog
meter, not subject to showing so called "phantom" voltages?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

H wrote:

Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
years old (after a heavy up).


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...

It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or existing?
are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?


"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...

L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V



I'm betting L2 is open somewhere along its path and you're using an
electronic voltmeter which is responding to a current being capacitively
coupled from L1 to L2 and displaying that current as "11 volts between
L2 to neutral".

Similarly, the L1 to L2 reading is low because of the open on L2 and the
voltmeter is being "measured" through the high impedance of the
capacitive coupling between L2 and neutral.

If it was me seeing that 11 volts between L2 and neutral, I'd stick the
fingers of one hand across the voltmeter probes and watch that voltage
drop to zero. But I won't advise you to do that because some nervous
Nellie on this group would scream you could get "burned" is the open on
L2 magically reconnected at just that point in time. G

Having recently celebrated my 50th college reunion, I remembered the
Brit Professor who taught our sophmore course in "Rotating Electrical
Machinery". We were mucking around with motors and generators and 3
phase power in the lab when he said, "You men will never become real
engineers until you learn how to "take" a shock. G

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

On Jun 21, 9:53 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
H wrote:
"Eric9822" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Jun 20, 6:50 pm, "H" wrote:

In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

I assume you have two 40A double pole breakers side by side, is this
correct? 11V L1 to L2? 11V L1 or L2 to N? Please provide some more
details.

Yes, there are two 40A double pole breakers side by side.

On both, at the breaker, it's 240V on both.

At the other end of the line, it's around 80V (combined) on both. One leg
has 127V, the other measures between 11V and 18V.

You still aren't telling us specifically where you are putting your
voltmeter leads to measure those voltages.

And, are you using an "electronic" voltmeter subject to displaying
voltages developed across its input impedance by microamp sized
capacitively coupled currents, or are you using a lower impedance analog
meter, not subject to showing so called "phantom" voltages?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I wish manufacturers would mention the Phantom Voltage issue with
electronic multimeters. It would save a lot of needless frustration.

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:56:03 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:


It seemed to me that had he hit the 240V line, sparks (or something)
would fly. None of that happened. But, if he had nicked both 240V
lines, would that explain the power loss (which is not total)?

Not if he cut the neutral or ground.

Open up the hole and see what he did.

I agree. Instead of all this theory, he should look where changes
were made.

I ddin't undderstand the story about the electrician, but drilling
without seeing where the drill will come out sounds, I don't know,
risky?

"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V

Assuming the voltages were measured with an electronic VOM I'd say that L2
is open between the breaker panel and the load. Most likely your
electrician cut or drilled through it.

Note that a 220/240V load doesn't care about the neutral; it only cares
about L1-L2.

mike wrote:
On Jun 21, 9:53 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

H wrote:

"Eric9822" wrote in message
roups.com...

On Jun 20, 6:50 pm, "H" wrote:

In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

I assume you have two 40A double pole breakers side by side, is this
correct? 11V L1 to L2? 11V L1 or L2 to N? Please provide some more
details.

Yes, there are two 40A double pole breakers side by side.

On both, at the breaker, it's 240V on both.

At the other end of the line, it's around 80V (combined) on both. One leg
has 127V, the other measures between 11V and 18V.

You still aren't telling us specifically where you are putting your
voltmeter leads to measure those voltages.

And, are you using an "electronic" voltmeter subject to displaying
voltages developed across its input impedance by microamp sized
capacitively coupled currents, or are you using a lower impedance analog
meter, not subject to showing so called "phantom" voltages?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I wish manufacturers would mention the Phantom Voltage issue with
electronic multimeters. It would save a lot of needless frustration.



That would only help people who RTFM. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

keep in mind the OP says he has two double pole 40 amp breakers and two
cables, one to the dryer and one to the A/C unit. Both cables show the same
low voltage at the load ends. He also says a continuity test shows all
conductors are continuous




"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
m...
"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V

Assuming the voltages were measured with an electronic VOM I'd say that L2
is open between the breaker panel and the load. Most likely your
electrician cut or drilled through it.

Note that a 220/240V load doesn't care about the neutral; it only cares
about L1-L2.

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:58:30 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

keep in mind the OP says he has two double pole 40 amp breakers and two
cables, one to the dryer and one to the A/C unit. Both cables show the same
low voltage at the load ends.

I guess it's possible that the cables were one on top the another, and
the electrician drilled through both of them at the same time.

He also says a continuity test shows all
conductors are continuous

Maybe he made a mistake on that somehow. Maybe some alternate path he
didn't exclude.

A lof of maybes but something has to explain this strange problem.



"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
om...
"H" wrote in message
news:Xslei.6623$%t6.5269@trnddc02...
L1 to L2 around 80V
L1 to N - 127V
L2 to N - 11V

Assuming the voltages were measured with an electronic VOM I'd say that L2
is open between the breaker panel and the load. Most likely your
electrician cut or drilled through it.

Note that a 220/240V load doesn't care about the neutral; it only cares
about L1-L2.

mm wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:56:03 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

It seemed to me that had he hit the 240V line, sparks (or something)
would fly. None of that happened. But, if he had nicked both 240V
lines, would that explain the power loss (which is not total)?
Not if he cut the neutral or ground.

Open up the hole and see what he did.

I agree. Instead of all this theory, he should look where changes
were made.

I ddin't undderstand the story about the electrician, but drilling
without seeing where the drill will come out sounds, I don't know,
risky?

I've seen it happen myself - putting in the mounts for a new TV in the
C&POs mess; the shipwright doing the mounting measured twice and for
safety's sake put a block of 2x4 between the wireway and the bulkhead -
but the block shifted and the drill went as neatly as you please into
the lighting circuit for that WT compartment. No lightshow, just the
lights went out.

We razzed him about it for weeks afterwards...

--
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/

mm wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 02:39:28 GMT, "H" wrote:

Have you measured the voltage at the output of the breakers, in the
breaker box, when the AC and dryer are attempting to run?

Are the bad voltages you've given us at the receptacles? Or somewhere
else nearby? And are they when the AC and dryer are attempting to
run, or when they are OFF?

Same at both.

Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
years old (after a heavy up).

They may be, but it bothers me that you keep saying they are both
wroking perfectly. AFAICT, all you have done is measure the voltage at
the output end of the breakers. There is more to working perfectly
than that. Like, Do they both trip at right current?

Not that any other problem would necessarily be related to the problem
you're posting about, and not that I can help you much with it, but on
principle and practice it bothers me that you keep saying they are
working *perfectly*. It also makes me think you are vulnerable to
missing something.

Well, unless he's got a multi-amp tester floating about, he's not going
to be able to test the tripping current.

--
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:28:40 GMT, William Underhill
wrote:


I ddin't undderstand the story about the electrician, but drilling
without seeing where the drill will come out sounds, I don't know,
risky?

I've seen it happen myself - putting in the mounts for a new TV in the
C&POs mess; the shipwright doing the mounting measured twice and for
safety's sake put a block of 2x4 between the wireway and the bulkhead -
but the block shifted and the drill went as neatly as you please into
the lighting circuit for that WT compartment. No lightshow, just the
lights went out.

Phew, I thought you were going to tell me the ship sank!

We razzed him about it for weeks afterwards...

Folks,

Firstly, thanks to all responders.

The problem was caused by the contractor who installed the line for the new
addition. He did, in fact, slice cleanly through the two 240V lines that
were behind the wall into which he drilled the hole.

The 11V, I was told by an electrician, actually means zero, since just about
anything, including one's own skin, has that much electricity in it. So,
despite the fact that I said continuity was tested, that was before I
understood that 11V could mean zero.

The original contractor came in and repaired it, firstly by cutting a hole
in the ceiling in the basement so he could see and confirm the damage, and
then by going upstairs into the kitchen, cutting a hole in the wale above
the problem and putting in a box in which the old lines were (presumably
correctly) spliced onto a new leads to go to the breaker box.

We have A/C and a dryer again, for which my bride is extremely grateful.

H


"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power (around
11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

Glad you found it. That's pretty amazing, not to mention pretty bad luck.
The other thing that I find amazing, is that someone could cut through two
40 amp lines and not know it



"H" wrote in message
news:qpWei.2952$pT4.2524@trndny06...
Folks,

Firstly, thanks to all responders.

The problem was caused by the contractor who installed the line for the
new addition. He did, in fact, slice cleanly through the two 240V lines
that were behind the wall into which he drilled the hole.

The 11V, I was told by an electrician, actually means zero, since just
about anything, including one's own skin, has that much electricity in it.
So, despite the fact that I said continuity was tested, that was before I
understood that 11V could mean zero.

The original contractor came in and repaired it, firstly by cutting a hole
in the ceiling in the basement so he could see and confirm the damage, and
then by going upstairs into the kitchen, cutting a hole in the wale above
the problem and putting in a box in which the old lines were (presumably
correctly) spliced onto a new leads to go to the breaker box.

We have A/C and a dryer again, for which my bride is extremely grateful.

H


"H" wrote in message
news:NPkei.6613$%t6.3623@trnddc02...
In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is for the
A/C, one is for the electric dryer.

Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of power
(around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c work.

Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly simultaneously?

H

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 20:36:38 GMT, "H" wrote:

What RBM said

The 11V, I was told by an electrician, actually means zero, since just about
anything, including one's own skin, has that much electricity in it. So,
despite the fact that I said continuity was tested, that was before I
understood that 11V could mean zero.

Not only that, you didn't understand what it means to check
continuity, and maybe you still don't. You don't check continuity by
finding 120 volts at one end and 11 at the other. Or even by finding
120 at both ends. You check continuity by disconnecting the hot end,
the end at the breaker, and disconnecting the dryer etc. at the other
end, and measuring the resistance, the ohms, from one end of the wire
in question to the other.

You coudl do this either by connecting two wires in the same cable at
one, and measuring the resistance between the two of them at the other
end. It should be zero or substantially less than an ohm. OR By
running your own wire from your owhmmeter to the far end of the wire,
and the other wire/test lead from your ohmmeter to the near end of the
wire, and measuring the resistance. It should also be zero or at
least substantially less than an ohm. If you use a continuity tester,
you can find continuity if the buzzer buzzes or the light glows.

You should never have told us you tested for continuity. Especially
since that statement confused people. All you did is test for
voltage, and you should have told us the details of that, but not used
the word continuity.

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 20:36:38 GMT, "H" wrote:

Folks,

Firstly, thanks to all responders.

But thanks for getting back to us. Much appreciated.

"H" wrote in message
news:qpWei.2952$pT4.2524@trndny06...
The 11V, I was told by an electrician, actually means zero, since just
about anything, including one's own skin, has that much electricity in it.
So, despite the fact that I said continuity was tested, that was before I
understood that 11V could mean zero.

Utterly incorrect on all counts. Please, next time learn how to use a
voltmeter and ohmmeter before asking for help.

On Jun 23, 9:22 am, "Travis Jordan" wrote:
"H" wrote in message

news:qpWei.2952$pT4.2524@trndny06...

The 11V, I was told by an electrician, actually means zero, since just
about anything, including one's own skin, has that much electricity in it.
So, despite the fact that I said continuity was tested, that was before I
understood that 11V could mean zero.

Utterly incorrect on all counts. Please, next time learn how to use a
voltmeter and ohmmeter before asking for help.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Just another comment/suggestion; although the point should be obvious
by now.

Many, even the cheapest electronic/digital meters are so sensitive
that they will 'pick up' electrical voltage even from wires that are
not connected or are broken off; (this can be due to 'induction' or
'capacitive coupling') to be technical about it!

These 'stray' voltages (or minivoltages) can appear significant if the
disconnected/unused/broken wires are in fairly close proximity to
working ones carrying electrcity!

Even touching ones finger to a sufficiently sensitive meter can cause
it to pick up the slight voltages,due to the human body's proximity to
electrical sources.

So users of such devices 'must' learn how to use them correctly. After
all we wouldn't expect someone to not learn how to use a pair of
scissors or a handsaw correctly?

To also explain; think how small electrical signals come through space
and can be picked up by suitably sensitive receiver; your radio, even
when traveling in a moving vehicle.

There is also a lot of electrical noise/energy radiated from the many
devices that are used, some of which are just standing by waiting to
trigger/activate something, some of which just inadvertently emit
'electrical noise'.

There is in fact, these days, virtually nowhere (unless in the middle
of very remote area; and even then there may be radar pulses raining
down from space vehicles/satellites etc.) that is 'electrically
quiet'.

Electrical noise is another form of pollution (along with light
pollution at night). And is quite a problem for radio astronomy.