"Mike" wrote in message news:Pm3vh.2408$eH.2151@trnddc05...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

Apparently, cost structure was more favorable towards propane near to a
decade ago--when the sys was initially installed....main benefit to
having
the heat pump being the luxury of having cooling...

Still makes no sense--if the gas is cheaper then just kill the HP on
heating
altogheter.

LP and Nat used to be cheap fuels. But as time goes by, they continue to
rise dramatically while the electric costs have had slight increases.

With new product designs and affiances, today a heat pump can often save
you
a significantly large amount of money in operational costs.

I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they can save
(or
spend) with varying heat sources. They don't understand it, till they
see
the actual numbers.

Many people are switching to corn burners. But with the evolution of
ethanol
being used for automotive purposes, the costs of corn is increasing. So
this
only raises their heating bills. Making the heat pump look better once
again.

One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

You bring up good ponts. Can I get a copy of your spreadsheet?


What figures would you like me to input for you?

List the fuel types, fuel cost and equipment efficiencies... and I'll get
you the end cost per million btu transferred into the space.

Look into Spacepack with heatpump. Ducts can be run anywhere. But Ng is
cheaper than electric.

firewood is a loser, run the numbers

lets assume you have a wooded lot nearby and the wood is free

now you must go cut down the trees, cut up the trees, haul the logs
home, split the logs, stack the split firewood, later stack it by
house, carry it indoors and burn, haul out ashes.

thats a LOT of work, and not real convenient

now take all the hours worked and get minimum wage job, after taxes
your probabl;y stilll ahead working the job

and that assuming the firewood source is closeby and free......

add in splitter, chainsaw, vehicle for hauling wood and fuel to run
vehicle....

Generally speaking, the spread between natural gas and electricity has
narrowed in recent years and there have been times when their
respective price positions have reversed, at least temporarily.

This time last year, Heritage Gas (our local distributor) was charging
residential customers $20.413 per GJ. One GJ is equal to 277.8 kWh,
so the cost per kWh(e) works out to be $0.073. Assuming 80 per cent
burner efficiency, the price jumps up to $0.092.

A typical new, energy-efficient home here in Nova Scotia might require
50 GJ of heat/year. At $20.413 per GJ and assuming an 80 per cent
conversion efficiency, natural gas heat would cost our homeowner
$1,275.81. At NSP's then rate of $0.922 per kWh, electric baseboard
heat comes to $1,280.66, so the difference in cost is less than $5.00.
If you factor in the volume of air that would have been exhausted out
of the house over the course of the heating season (air that, in many
cases, would have been previously heated), both while the gas furnace
was operating, as well as what would have leaked out the damper as it
sat idle, electric pulls ahead. And if individual room controls
allowed the homeowner to turn down the heat in various parts of his
home, the net result is that electric heat is the clear winner.

Today, the price of these fuels has reverted back to their more
historical positions. Natural gas heat has fallen to a little over
$800.00/year and with NSP's latest rate increase, electric baseboard
heat has climbed to just over $1,400.00. The gap, in this case, of
just $5.00 has now grown to $600.00, all in the space of one year.

So it seems homeowners never really know from one year to the next
what they'll pay to stay comfortable in their homes. For many of us,
the uncertainty (perhaps anxiety is a better word) is just not worth
it.

Which brings me to the point I keep hammering again and again. A high
efficiency heat pump could heat this same home for as little as
$450.00 a year; at current rates, that's a $950.00 savings over
electric baseboard heat and a $350.00 savings over natural gas.

Cheers,
Paul

wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they can
save
(or
spend) with varying heat sources.



What figures would you like me to input for you?

List the fuel types, fuel cost and equipment efficiencies... and I'll get
you the end cost per million btu transferred into the space.


full cord of tamarack wood. $160.00 delivered. Cast iron stove.
82.5%


$12.12


http://www.blazeking.com/Blazekingwo...ingclassic.htm

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Look into Spacepack with heatpump. Ducts can be run anywhere. But Ng is
cheaper than electric.

What is Spacepack?

Hi Mike,

I suspect Mr. Ransley meant "spacepak".

See:
http://www.spacepak.com/

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:29:09 GMT, "Mike" wrote:


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Look into Spacepack with heatpump. Ducts can be run anywhere. But Ng is
cheaper than electric.

What is Spacepack?

Donald Kinney wrote:
Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I had
electric, I freeze to death.
Steve Spence

So how do you run the fan in the furnace when the power is out?

Donald



My furnace doesn't have a fan, plus I'm off grid, so my power is never
out. Propane wall heaters are non-electric. My primary heat is wood, but
I have propane heat for when I want to go away for a weekend.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
news
On Sun, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that
Ask the, about a million, people who lost power
for a week or more in the plains and west coast.

It would help if each one were installed with a
big warning sign "Be sure to have a backup heating
system if the power goes off".

I seriously doubt if one out of a thousand
homes have an emergency generator, and even
some that do could not isolate the furnace circuit
and run it.

But I am prejudiced, I don't like the noise
of the small duct forced air.

Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???



What's wrong with propane wall heaters for emergency backup, or even a
nice woodstove?

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they can
save
(or
spend) with varying heat sources.



What figures would you like me to input for you?

List the fuel types, fuel cost and equipment efficiencies... and I'll
get
you the end cost per million btu transferred into the space.


full cord of tamarack wood. $160.00 delivered. Cast iron stove.
82.5%


$12.12 --- this is incorrect

Sorry, I missed something here.........

It should be $7.46 per million btu entered into the space.

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Donald Kinney wrote:
Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I
had
electric, I freeze to death.
Steve Spence

So how do you run the fan in the furnace when the power is out?

Donald



My furnace doesn't have a fan, plus I'm off grid, so my power is never
out. Propane wall heaters are non-electric. My primary heat is wood, but
I have propane heat for when I want to go away for a weekend.

The thing that most everyone is missing is this...

There are many ways to provide heat without electric, but for the most
part... they are inefficient and not as comfortable as other heat sources.

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
news
On Sun, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that
Ask the, about a million, people who lost power
for a week or more in the plains and west coast.

It would help if each one were installed with a
big warning sign "Be sure to have a backup heating
system if the power goes off".

I seriously doubt if one out of a thousand
homes have an emergency generator, and even
some that do could not isolate the furnace circuit
and run it.

But I am prejudiced, I don't like the noise
of the small duct forced air.

Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do
you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???



What's wrong with propane wall heaters for emergency backup, or even a
nice woodstove?

As in my other reply, there are many ways to provide emergency heat without
electric. But in most cases, these are inefficient and compromise your
comfort.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
news On Sun, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that
Ask the, about a million, people who lost power
for a week or more in the plains and west coast.

It would help if each one were installed with a
big warning sign "Be sure to have a backup heating
system if the power goes off".

I seriously doubt if one out of a thousand
homes have an emergency generator, and even
some that do could not isolate the furnace circuit
and run it.

But I am prejudiced, I don't like the noise
of the small duct forced air.
Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do
you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???


What's wrong with propane wall heaters for emergency backup, or even a
nice woodstove?

As in my other reply, there are many ways to provide emergency heat without
electric. But in most cases, these are inefficient and compromise your
comfort.



I disagree. In many areas, electric is expensive, and in our case not
even available. Wood heat is very comfortable, and so is propane.
Propane is very efficient (ventless). Wood is only a bit less with some
burners (http://woodboilers.com/)

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
news On Sun, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that
Ask the, about a million, people who lost power
for a week or more in the plains and west coast.

It would help if each one were installed with a
big warning sign "Be sure to have a backup heating
system if the power goes off".

I seriously doubt if one out of a thousand
homes have an emergency generator, and even
some that do could not isolate the furnace circuit
and run it.

But I am prejudiced, I don't like the noise
of the small duct forced air.
Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do
you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???


What's wrong with propane wall heaters for emergency backup, or even a
nice woodstove?

As in my other reply, there are many ways to provide emergency heat
without
electric. But in most cases, these are inefficient and compromise your
comfort.



I disagree. In many areas, electric is expensive, and in our case not
even available. Wood heat is very comfortable, and so is propane.
Propane is very efficient (ventless). Wood is only a bit less with some
burners (http://woodboilers.com/)

Ok, this discussion is way off the original track... BUT

Electric isn't expensive EVERYWHERE. Especially when you use it to operate a
Heat Pump.

Wood heat isn't for MOST people as it's very labor intensive and requires
time that some people don't have. Or a schedule to accommodate one either.

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters and...
well, you get the point.

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
news
Hi Mike,

I suspect Mr. Ransley meant "spacepak".

See:
http://www.spacepak.com/

Thganks I'll review the link.

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

I can appreciate your frustration. What I find funny is how major
power consumers vigorously fought for deregulation, fully expecting
electricity rates to go down. In most cases, that didn't happen
(quite the opposite) and some of those same voices were screaming to
have things put back as they once were.

We can bemoan high energy prices but at the end of the day we're no
further ahead. What we need to do is look for intelligent ways to use
less. For example, all of us might consider replacing the five
incandescent bulbs we use most frequently with CFLs; at $2.00 to $3.00
each, there's really no reason why any of us should be using a bulb
that consumes four times more energy than necessary.

When it comes time to replace that old refrigerator or dishwasher,
select an Energy Star model. A twenty-five or thirty year old
refrigerator could easily consume 2,000 or more kWhs per year; my
current refrigerator uses less than one-quarter of that. How many old
refrigerators sit in hot garages keeping one or two cases of beer
cold?

If you put your mind to it, you'll find a dozen different ways to
reduce your bill.

This Channel 4 presentation might help start the ball running. And
who knows? You too might save a "packet of money".

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PVGEk5Wlxk

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxfyiOtfD88

#3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQGtHpxvmLg

#4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S8DPfICQiM

#5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXqHrsTFv2Y

#6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAub4yoRZkc

Cheers,
Paul

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

I can appreciate your frustration. What I find funny is how major
power consumers vigorously fought for deregulation, fully expecting
electricity rates to go down. In most cases, that didn't happen
(quite the opposite) and some of those same voices were screaming to
have things put back as they once were.

We can bemoan high energy prices but at the end of the day we're no
further ahead. What we need to do is look for intelligent ways to use
less. For example, all of us might consider replacing the five
incandescent bulbs we use most frequently with CFLs; at $2.00 to $3.00
each, there's really no reason why any of us should be using a bulb
that consumes four times more energy than necessary.

When it comes time to replace that old refrigerator or dishwasher,
select an Energy Star model. A twenty-five or thirty year old
refrigerator could easily consume 2,000 or more kWhs per year; my
current refrigerator uses less than one-quarter of that. How many old
refrigerators sit in hot garages keeping one or two cases of beer
cold?

If you put your mind to it, you'll find a dozen different ways to
reduce your bill.

This Channel 4 presentation might help start the ball running. And
who knows? You too might save a "packet of money".

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PVGEk5Wlxk

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxfyiOtfD88

#3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQGtHpxvmLg

#4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S8DPfICQiM

#5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXqHrsTFv2Y

#6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAub4yoRZkc

Interesting Links Paul, so far I've listened to three of them. I swapped the
bulbs for energy saving baulbs within months after moving in in 2003.
Unfortunately,
for now I spend most of my time in my dining room which has a variable
switch for the overhead lights (two 100w bulbs) I haven't been able to
find -variable wattage energy saving bulbs. I never use the standy mode
for my plasma tv, etc.
I really do need insulate some. My PC is against a wall w/ two windows one
of which has an air conditioner and the other one just a 20 y/o dual pane
replacment window. For now I'm going to take off the window molding and see
if I can get some foam insulation in there and wrap the outside of the air
conditioner. Theres a sheet of platic over the inside of it.

I've been reading Tyson Slocum papers on energy. He tends to be a Bush
basher but if you read around it there's some very useful information about
the politics of energy in the US. What rates to you pay?

http://www.citizen.org/cmep/energy_e...r/electricity/

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the link; I'll check it out shortly. Segment #6 offers a
top-ten run down of some of the simple things you can do to reduce
your home's energy needs. Overall, I found this Channel 4 programme
entertaining and informative, plus you've got to love those quirky
Brits and all their oddball expressions.

There are dimmable CFLs available but they're not as easy to find.
Phillips has a dimmable version of their Marathon product, which I
know is carried by Home Depot; as to whether it will fit dinning room
fixture only you can decide.

To track down some of those energy leaks, take a candle or stick of
incense and on a windy day go around and inspect your windows and
doors, wall plugs and light switches, fireplace dampers, attic hatch,
etc. You'll soon discover where it is you need to focus your
attention.

In terms of rates, I currently pay 10.13 cents per kWh for electricity
and, as of my last filling, 75.9 cents per litre for heating oil (my
prior fill-up was 81.9 cents and before that it was 83.9). Propane is
now running at $1.008 per litre.

There are 3.76 litres per U.S. gallon, so 75.9 cents per litre
translates to $2.85 per gallon; last winter, I was paying $3.15 per
gallon. In terms of propane, $1.008 per litre converts to $3.79 per
gallon.

So I think you can understand why I'm so enamoured with my heat pump.
It has effectively reduced my heating costs to just 4 cents per kWh.
That's less than half the cost of oil and about one-fifth the cost of
propane.

Cheers,
Paul

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 03:22:46 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Interesting Links Paul, so far I've listened to three of them. I swapped the
bulbs for energy saving baulbs within months after moving in in 2003.
Unfortunately,
for now I spend most of my time in my dining room which has a variable
switch for the overhead lights (two 100w bulbs) I haven't been able to
find -variable wattage energy saving bulbs. I never use the standy mode
for my plasma tv, etc.
I really do need insulate some. My PC is against a wall w/ two windows one
of which has an air conditioner and the other one just a 20 y/o dual pane
replacment window. For now I'm going to take off the window molding and see
if I can get some foam insulation in there and wrap the outside of the air
conditioner. Theres a sheet of platic over the inside of it.

I've been reading Tyson Slocum papers on energy. He tends to be a Bush
basher but if you read around it there's some very useful information about
the politics of energy in the US. What rates to you pay?

http://www.citizen.org/cmep/energy_e...r/electricity/

Mike

wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they
can
save
(or
spend) with varying heat sources.



What figures would you like me to input for you?

List the fuel types, fuel cost and equipment efficiencies... and
I'll
get
you the end cost per million btu transferred into the space.


full cord of tamarack wood. $160.00 delivered. Cast iron stove.
82.5%


$12.12 --- this is incorrect

Sorry, I missed something here.........

It should be $7.46 per million btu entered into the space.


wrong. the cord of wood was split inside the heated space.

factor in the btu's generated while splitting the wood.

heat source: calories burned.

Like I was supposed to know it wasn't split. rolleyes

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters and...
well, you get the point.



Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters
and...
well, you get the point.



Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

You DID NOT just say a propane cookstove doesn't give off
CO?????????????????????????

Isn't your water heater vented? Guess what... there's CO going out the flu!!

What brand and model CO Detector do you own?
How much did you pay for it? Where did you purchase it?

A quality meter is $200 plus... and not sold in most large retail "chain"
stores.

I know quite a bit about LP (Liquified Protroleum) Propane... R-290

Now I suggect that you go read up on the appliances in your home that you
know nothing about.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

You do realize that burning WOOD creates CO?
Or did you assume it was vented to remove the smoke?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of
heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters
and...
well, you get the point.



Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

You DID NOT just say a propane cookstove doesn't give off
CO?????????????????????????

Isn't your water heater vented? Guess what... there's CO going out the
flu!!

What brand and model CO Detector do you own?
How much did you pay for it? Where did you purchase it?

A quality meter is $200 plus... and not sold in most large retail "chain"
stores.

I know quite a bit about LP (Liquified Protroleum) Propane... R-290

Now I suggect that you go read up on the appliances in your home that you
know nothing about.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

You do realize that burning WOOD creates CO?
Or did you assume it was vented to remove the smoke?




Gentlemen all gases can kill person it depend on concentration
of that gas in the area you are in and when I said all I mean it all
the worst are does that person can't smell are test
I lived till I was 15 years old that we had only wood to heat
are cook I also lived in bayou country of Louisiana for 7 years
where we had open heating heaters power it by propane
and I never hear from anyone dieing from CO however precautions
must be taking there is the way to add oxygen to the rooms
heaters are use for absorbing the CO I can't say which terminology
you wish to use it does not make difference as long it comes
out to same thing reduction of CO safe for personal living

Dido say that

On 30 Jan, 23:45, "AKS" wrote:
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message

...





"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of
heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters
and...
well, you get the point.

Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

You DID NOT just say a propane cookstove doesn't give off
CO?????????????????????????

Isn't your water heater vented? Guess what... there's CO going out the
flu!!

What brand and model CO Detector do you own?
How much did you pay for it? Where did you purchase it?

A quality meter is $200 plus... and not sold in most large retail "chain"
stores.

I know quite a bit about LP (Liquified Protroleum) Propane... R-290

Now I suggect that you go read up on the appliances in your home that you
know nothing about.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

You do realize that burning WOOD creates CO?
Or did you assume it was vented to remove the smoke?

Gentlemen all gases can kill person it depend on concentration
of that gas in the area you are in and when I said all I mean it all
the worst are does that person can't smell are test
I lived till I was 15 years old that we had only wood to heat
are cook I also lived in bayou country of Louisiana for 7 years
where we had open heating heaters power it by propane
and I never hear from anyone dieing from CO however precautions
must be taking there is the way to add oxygen to the rooms
heaters are use for absorbing the CO I can't say which terminology
you wish to use it does not make difference as long it comes
out to same thing reduction of CO safe for personal living

Dido say that


FINTANUK (INCOMPETENT FRAUDSTERS) UNLOCK THE SECRET CODE TO SCREWING
UP YOUR BUSINESS, AS PIONEERED BY LEE **** INGRAM = INCOMPETENT MORON.
LET'S READ MORE ABOUT THE SECRET CODE TO BUSINESS FAILURE, LEE YOU
****.

http://www.fintanuk.com/downloads/th...de_pro_sec.pdf

DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THESE RETARDED FINTANUK FRAUDSTERS.

"AKS" wrote in message
news:vMQvh.21568$Ss1.10797@trnddc07...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A
JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of
heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters
and...
well, you get the point.



Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a
propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached
garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

You DID NOT just say a propane cookstove doesn't give off
CO?????????????????????????

Isn't your water heater vented? Guess what... there's CO going out the
flu!!

What brand and model CO Detector do you own?
How much did you pay for it? Where did you purchase it?

A quality meter is $200 plus... and not sold in most large retail
"chain"
stores.

I know quite a bit about LP (Liquified Protroleum) Propane... R-290

Now I suggect that you go read up on the appliances in your home that
you
know nothing about.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

You do realize that burning WOOD creates CO?
Or did you assume it was vented to remove the smoke?




Gentlemen all gases can kill person it depend on concentration
of that gas in the area you are in and when I said all I mean it all
the worst are does that person can't smell are test
I lived till I was 15 years old that we had only wood to heat
are cook I also lived in bayou country of Louisiana for 7 years
where we had open heating heaters power it by propane
and I never hear from anyone dieing from CO however precautions
must be taking there is the way to add oxygen to the rooms
heaters are use for absorbing the CO I can't say which terminology
you wish to use it does not make difference as long it comes
out to same thing reduction of CO safe for personal living

Dido say that

We don't live in barns no more.

We also have indoor plumbing.

CO has many effects whether you realize it's happening to you or not.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters
and...
well, you get the point.


Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

You DID NOT just say a propane cookstove doesn't give off
CO?????????????????????????

Isn't your water heater vented? Guess what... there's CO going out the flu!!

What brand and model CO Detector do you own?
How much did you pay for it? Where did you purchase it?

A quality meter is $200 plus... and not sold in most large retail "chain"
stores.

I know quite a bit about LP (Liquified Protroleum) Propane... R-290

Now I suggect that you go read up on the appliances in your home that you
know nothing about.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

You do realize that burning WOOD creates CO?
Or did you assume it was vented to remove the smoke?


If a propane burner is emitting CO, then it's not adjusted properly. Our
gas company measured 13 ppm using the air-free method.

The CO emitted from a woodstove goes up the chimney, not into a house.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Then you want to talk about VENTLESS LP heaters....... WHAT A
JOKE!!!!!
Ever heard of Carbon Monoxide??

You do know CO kills RIGHT??

You do know, you don't use VENTLESS heaters as a primary source of
heat,
RIGHT?

So to make it plain and simple... you can take those VENTLESS heaters
and...
well, you get the point.


Ok, so you don't know much about propane heaters. I have a CO detector.
It's never measured anythimg above 0 with two propane fridges, a
propane
cookstove, propane dryer, and propane water heater. The only time it
squawked was when the kids fired up the gas genny in the attached
garage
(measured 95). Propane stoves do not give off CO.

You DID NOT just say a propane cookstove doesn't give off
CO?????????????????????????

Isn't your water heater vented? Guess what... there's CO going out the
flu!!

What brand and model CO Detector do you own?
How much did you pay for it? Where did you purchase it?

A quality meter is $200 plus... and not sold in most large retail
"chain"
stores.

I know quite a bit about LP (Liquified Protroleum) Propane... R-290

Now I suggect that you go read up on the appliances in your home that
you
know nothing about.

Our primary heat is wood. It's a pleasure, not a chore, and it's very
inexpensive. $450 / year.

You do realize that burning WOOD creates CO?
Or did you assume it was vented to remove the smoke?


If a propane burner is emitting CO, then it's not adjusted properly.

If a propane burner can burn so clean....... WHY ARE THEY VENTED?????????

And while we are on it... WHY ARE THEY NOT 100% EFFICIENT?????????

Get a clue man, you're DANGEROUS!!!!!

Mike wrote:
"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

eeerrrr.... aahhhhh.. . . . end of group.




Around here we call them EOR End Of Row like in rowhouses

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

If a propane burner can burn so clean....... WHY ARE THEY VENTED?????????

And while we are on it... WHY ARE THEY NOT 100% EFFICIENT?????????

Get a clue man, you're DANGEROUS!!!!!



Not all propane appliances are vented. Cooking ranges, fireplaces, and
others are designed that way. Spreading misinformation is dangerous, but
then you seem to know more than the manufacturers. A non-vented propane
fireplace is 100% efficient, since none of the heat goes up a chimney.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Steve Scott" wrote in message
news
You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the combustion
of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment
that's running properly.


Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!

And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't give
off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.

Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!

Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter?
I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.


Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice
of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted
average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more
than 9ppm.

OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!

You just showed your stupidity with this post.

Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.

I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide
fumes!!!!!

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

If a propane burner can burn so clean....... WHY ARE THEY
VENTED?????????

And while we are on it... WHY ARE THEY NOT 100% EFFICIENT?????????

Get a clue man, you're DANGEROUS!!!!!



Not all propane appliances are vented. Cooking ranges, fireplaces, and
others are designed that way. Spreading misinformation is dangerous, but
then you seem to know more than the manufacturers. A non-vented propane
fireplace is 100% efficient, since none of the heat goes up a chimney.

BULL****!!!!!!!

Just because they are UNVENTED, doesn't mean they don't produce CO.

And if they were 100% efficient... they wouldn't be creating CO... DIP****.

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

If a propane burner is emitting CO, then it's not adjusted properly. Our
gas company measured 13 ppm using the air-free method.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion

--

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Scott" wrote in message
news
You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the combustion
of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment
that's running properly.


Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!

And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't give
off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.

Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!

Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter?
I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.


Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice
of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted
average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more
than 9ppm.

OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!

You just showed your stupidity with this post.

Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.

I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide
fumes!!!!!




You showed your brain damage by thinking I posted that.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Scott" wrote in message
news
You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the combustion
of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment
that's running properly.


Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!

And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't
give
off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.

Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!

Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter?
I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.


Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice
of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted
average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more
than 9ppm.

OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!

You just showed your stupidity with this post.

Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.

I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide
fumes!!!!!




You showed your brain damage by thinking I posted that.

Is my post incorrect?
Did I say you posted that?

Please keep up or stay on the porch.

I for one, know that Steve Scott knows his ****. Unlike you.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Scott" wrote in message
news You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the combustion
of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment
that's running properly.

Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!

And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't
give
off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.

Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!

Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter?
I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.


Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice
of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted
average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more
than 9ppm.
OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!

You just showed your stupidity with this post.

Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.

I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide
fumes!!!!!




You showed your brain damage by thinking I posted that.

Is my post incorrect?
Did I say you posted that?

Please keep up or stay on the porch.

I for one, know that Steve Scott knows his ****. Unlike you.




I don't have time for rude little posers like you. I've been running and
fixing propane equipment for years. I take precautions, but I'm not
scared of it like you are. It's very common equipment among us
off-gridders, with years of worry free performance. If you value scott's
opinion so much, why did you mark his post as being stupid? Whatever,
you aren't worth the trouble. bbye now.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

wrote in message
news
"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote:


"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

If a propane burner is emitting CO, then it's not adjusted properly.
Our
gas company measured 13 ppm using the air-free method.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion


quoting from that source.....

Chemical equation

Generally, the chemical equation for stoichiometric burning of
hydrocarbon in oxygen is as follows:

C_xH_y + (x + \frac{y}{4})O_2 \rightarrow \; xCO_2 +
(\frac{y}{2})H_2O

For example, the burning of propane is:

C_3H_8 + 5O_2 \rightarrow \; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O

The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in oxygen
is:

\textrm{Fuel} + \textrm{Oxygen} \rightarrow \; \textrm{Heat} +
\textrm{Water} + \textrm{Carbon\ dioxide}

If the combustion takes place using air as the oxygen source, the
corresponding equations a

C_xH_y + (x+ \frac{y}{4})O_2 + 3.76(x+ \frac{y}{4})N_2 \rightarrow
\; xCO_2 + (\frac{y}{2})H_2O + 3.76(x + \frac{y}{4})N_2

For example, the burning of propane is:

C_3H_8 + 5O_2 + 18.8N_2 \rightarrow \; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O + 18.8N_2

The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in air
is:

\textrm{Fuel} + \textrm{Air} \rightarrow \; \textrm{Heat} +
\textrm{Water} + \textrm{Carbon\ dioxide} + \textrm{Nitrogen}


bottom line, I couldnt see where CO by itself is produced.......by
combusting propane and oxygen or propane and air..... co2, yes, co,
no.

Fish,

Yes I know this--here's where it does get produced :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion#Incomplete

--

"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike wrote:
"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

eeerrrr.... aahhhhh.. . . . end of group.




Around here we call them EOR End Of Row like in rowhouses

Makes sense to me. Semantics

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
news
"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote:


"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...

If a propane burner is emitting CO, then it's not adjusted properly.
Our
gas company measured 13 ppm using the air-free method.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion


quoting from that source.....

Chemical equation

Generally, the chemical equation for stoichiometric burning of
hydrocarbon in oxygen is as follows:

C_xH_y + (x + \frac{y}{4})O_2 \rightarrow \; xCO_2 +
(\frac{y}{2})H_2O

For example, the burning of propane is:

C_3H_8 + 5O_2 \rightarrow \; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O

The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in oxygen
is:

\textrm{Fuel} + \textrm{Oxygen} \rightarrow \; \textrm{Heat} +
\textrm{Water} + \textrm{Carbon\ dioxide}

If the combustion takes place using air as the oxygen source, the
corresponding equations a

C_xH_y + (x+ \frac{y}{4})O_2 + 3.76(x+ \frac{y}{4})N_2 \rightarrow
\; xCO_2 + (\frac{y}{2})H_2O + 3.76(x + \frac{y}{4})N_2

For example, the burning of propane is:

C_3H_8 + 5O_2 + 18.8N_2 \rightarrow \; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O + 18.8N_2

The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in air
is:

\textrm{Fuel} + \textrm{Air} \rightarrow \; \textrm{Heat} +
\textrm{Water} + \textrm{Carbon\ dioxide} + \textrm{Nitrogen}


bottom line, I couldnt see where CO by itself is produced.......by
combusting propane and oxygen or propane and air..... co2, yes, co,
no.

Fish,

Yes I know this--here's where it does get produced :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion#Incomplete


http://www.carbonmonoxidedeaths.com/

--

On Tue, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

If a propane burner is emitting CO, then it's not adjusted properly.

If a propane burner can burn so clean....... WHY ARE THEY VENTED?????????

And while we are on it... WHY ARE THEY NOT 100% EFFICIENT?????????

Get a clue man, you're DANGEROUS!!!!!

Catalytic propane radiant heaters are popular in
large spaces, but I wouldn't use one in a home, and
have never seen one used in a home.

I saw 3 UNVENTED natural gas heaters purchased
to be installed in a home by an ex-gas company employee,
and heard later that the tenants complained of the odor
using them.
I had a friend that used stove top burners to heat
a couple of rooms upstairs in his parent's house, when
I visited my eyes burned a lot.

People do use unvented heaters, and some are
advertised as being safe to use in a home, but if there
is a warning on the heater to use it ONLY in a well
ventilated space, it is probably not safe to use in
a home.

There has been a progression in the safety of
natural gas space heaters, the first had no safety
devices at all, then they had pilot lights with thermo-
couples to not open the main valve if the pilot goes
out, and both of mine also have an overheat Klixon
in series with the thermocouple, and that makes it
safer, but requires changing the thermocouple more
often because of the resistance of the switch and
wires, and the thermocouple produces less voltage
after a few months of use.

I have no problem with using the gas space
heaters, but I prefer not to have one running in a
room I sleep in, even thought they are vented with
5 inch metal vent pipes into a tile lined masonry
chimney.

Joe Fischer

On Wed, wrote:

bottom line, I couldnt see where CO by itself is produced.......by
combusting propane and oxygen or propane and air..... co2, yes, co,
no.

All gas ranges have had unvented ovens and
top burners for all time, and most people know enough
to have the air adjusted if there is much red or orange
or yellow flames.
With pure blue flame they are considered safe,
but it is assumed they are not used constantly.

Most of the unvented heaters are not very
large, usually less than 20,000 BTU/hour.

My vented heaters are 75,000 and 35,000
BTU/hour, and Cozy also sells them with propane
jets, but they are all vented.

Gas water heaters do kill people, but it
usually takes both a blocked vent and an incorrect
air setting to do that.
All gas appliances must have a way to
adjust the air induction, and if any red, yellow or
orange flame is seen, have somebody that knows
how adjust it.

But any over 20,000 BTU/hour should
probably be vented, especially in rooms where
people sleep.
My heater instructions state how much
of an opening is required for fresh air to enter.

Joe Fischer

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Steve Scott" wrote in message
news You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the
combustion
of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment
that's running properly.

Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!

And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't
give
off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.

Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!

Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter?
I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.


Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice
of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted
average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more
than 9ppm.
OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!

You just showed your stupidity with this post.

Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.

I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide
fumes!!!!!




You showed your brain damage by thinking I posted that.

Is my post incorrect?
Did I say you posted that?

Please keep up or stay on the porch.

I for one, know that Steve Scott knows his ****. Unlike you.




I don't have time for rude little posers like you. I've been running and
fixing propane equipment for years. I take precautions, but I'm not
scared of it like you are. It's very common equipment among us
off-gridders, with years of worry free performance. If you value scott's
opinion so much, why did you mark his post as being stupid? Whatever,
you aren't worth the trouble. bbye now.

Been working on propane heaters for many years here too... big deal.
You do know that years of experience doesn't qualify as QUALITY service?

Did I say I was AFRAID of them? No

Did I say they produce CO? Yes

Did I say that using an UNVENTED heater in a home is stupid? Yes

What don't you understand?