Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

On Jan 27, 11:29 am, "Mike" wrote:
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

I imagine you are probably going to end up with an electric furnace
with a heat pump.

As far as I know this is about as efficient as you can get using
electric.

But bear in mind the cost of this is going to be thousands of dollars
It could be a while before you hit break even on your energy bills.

wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 27, 11:29 am, "Mike" wrote:
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

I imagine you are probably going to end up with an electric furnace
with a heat pump.

As far as I know this is about as efficient as you can get using
electric.

But bear in mind the cost of this is going to be thousands of dollars
It could be a while before you hit break even on your energy bills.


I've got a gas stove and water heater. How can I convert BTU/therms to kw
so I can compare costs?

Hi Mike,

There are 100,000 BTUs per therm of natural gas, or the equivalent of
29.3 kWh of electric heat.

A mid efficiency furnace operating at 80 per cent efficiency will
provide you with 23.4 kWh of heat per therm (the other 5.9 kWh being
lost up the chimney). A high efficiency furnace with a 90 per cent
efficiency rating would give you 26.4 kWh/therm and at the very top
end of the scale you might achieve upwards of 28 kWh/therm.

It looks like BGE is currently charging residential customers $1.30
per therm (commodity and delivery prices combined). At 80 per cent
conversion efficiency, each kWh of gas heat costs you roughly 5.5
cents and at 90 per cent efficiency, that cost falls to 4.9 cents per
kWh(e).

I believe BGE's winter electric rate now stands at 12.73 cents per
kWh. A high efficiency heat pump with a seasonal COP of between 2.5
and 3.0 (not an unreasonable number given your relatively moderate
winters), would produce heat in the range of 4.2 to 5.1 cents per
kWh(e).

One of the Fujitsu ductless heat pumps has a HSPF of 11.0, which puts
its seasonal COP at just over 3.2. That effectively reduces the cost
of electric heat to just 3.9 cents per kWh(e), or some twenty per cent
below that of a high efficiency gas furnace operating at 90 per cent
efficiency.

One of the nice things about a ductless heat pump is that you can
simply leave your electric baseboard heaters in place, so there's no
need to rip them out, re-plaster your walls and repaint your rooms.
This also provides you with backup emergency heat should your heat
pump require servicing.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:22:31 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

I've got a gas stove and water heater. How can I convert BTU/therms to kw
so I can compare costs?

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

There are 100,000 BTUs per therm of natural gas, or the equivalent of
29.3 kWh of electric heat.

A mid efficiency furnace operating at 80 per cent efficiency will
provide you with 23.4 kWh of heat per therm (the other 5.9 kWh being
lost up the chimney). A high efficiency furnace with a 90 per cent
efficiency rating would give you 26.4 kWh/therm and at the very top
end of the scale you might achieve upwards of 28 kWh/therm.

It looks like BGE is currently charging residential customers $1.30
per therm (commodity and delivery prices combined). At 80 per cent
conversion efficiency, each kWh of gas heat costs you roughly 5.5
cents and at 90 per cent efficiency, that cost falls to 4.9 cents per
kWh(e).

I believe BGE's winter electric rate now stands at 12.73 cents per
kWh. A high efficiency heat pump with a seasonal COP of between 2.5
and 3.0 (not an unreasonable number given your relatively moderate
winters), would produce heat in the range of 4.2 to 5.1 cents per
kWh(e).

One of the Fujitsu ductless heat pumps has a HSPF of 11.0, which puts
its seasonal COP at just over 3.2. That effectively reduces the cost
of electric heat to just 3.9 cents per kWh(e), or some twenty per cent
below that of a high efficiency gas furnace operating at 90 per cent
efficiency.

One of the nice things about a ductless heat pump is that you can
simply leave your electric baseboard heaters in place, so there's no
need to rip them out, re-plaster your walls and repaint your rooms.
This also provides you with backup emergency heat should your heat
pump require servicing.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:22:31 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

I've got a gas stove and water heater. How can I convert BTU/therms to kw
so I can compare costs?

Paul, another poster stated the cost on NG is going up, and I assume, might
even surpass electricso the HP is evenn more appealing. How does it cool in
the rooms in the summer?

Hi Mike,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict the long-term cost of
natural gas, but I tend to believe it will only go up... most likely,
way up.

Canada now supplies 90 per cent of U.S. imports and most of that gas
originates in Alberta. The bad news is that Alberta's fields are
rapidly maturing and production will soon begin its inevitable
decline.

But that's just part of the story. It takes 1,000 cubic feet of
natural gas to process each barrel of oil made from Alberta's tar
sands (add four barrels of fresh water to the mix while you're at it).
By 2015, these oil sands are expected to produce two million barrels
of oil per day. Now do the math.... multiple two million barrels by
1,000 cubic feet, then multiple by 365 days in a year. Anyone want to
guess where a good chunk of that Canadian gas will soon be going?

I don't know about you, but I get that queasy feeling in the pit of my
stomach. Oh, while we're at it, can anyone tell me where those eight
million barrels of water (per day) will go once they finish processing
all that oily, sticky tar? ... Someone? ... Anyone?

In regards to cooling, they work great. A heat pump with a SEER
rating of 20 or 21 is likely to be two to two-and-a-half times more
energy efficient than your current window units. I'm happy to say
they cool just as well as they heat.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, another poster stated the cost on NG is going up, and I assume, might
even surpass electricso the HP is evenn more appealing. How does it cool in
the rooms in the summer?

Look into Spacepack with heatpump. Ducts can be run anywhere. But Ng is
cheaper than electric.

firewood is a loser, run the numbers

lets assume you have a wooded lot nearby and the wood is free

now you must go cut down the trees, cut up the trees, haul the logs
home, split the logs, stack the split firewood, later stack it by
house, carry it indoors and burn, haul out ashes.

thats a LOT of work, and not real convenient

now take all the hours worked and get minimum wage job, after taxes
your probabl;y stilll ahead working the job

and that assuming the firewood source is closeby and free......

add in splitter, chainsaw, vehicle for hauling wood and fuel to run
vehicle....

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Look into Spacepack with heatpump. Ducts can be run anywhere. But Ng is
cheaper than electric.

What is Spacepack?

Hi Mike,

Since you currently have electric baseboard heat and therefore I take
it no existing ductwork, I would highly recommend a ductless heat pump
(a multi-zone model most likely). A ductless heat pump can be
installed very easily and without any disruption to your living space
-- no cutting of walls and floors, no loss of interior or closet
space, no re-drywalling, no repainting and no construction dust.

A high efficiency ductless heat pump can cut your space heating costs
by 70 per cent and your cooling costs in half. It will improve the
outward appearance and security of your home; i.e., no unsightly
window air conditioners that can leave you venerable to break-ins.
They're also incredibly quiet.

I've been speaking with someone in another newsgroup who lives in
Montréal, a city much colder than your own. He tells me that even at
-1F, his ductless heat pump can still heat his entire home and at half
the cost of resistance heat.

He has a Fujitsu model 24RL. You can obtain more information on this
product he

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06...6_brochure.pdf

I have oil-fired hot water baseboard heating and a year and a half ago
I installed a small Friedrich ductless heat pump (it's a rebranded
Fujitsu). It has cut my heating costs by more than half.

This is a picture of the inside air handler, which is located in my
living room:

http://server4.pictiger.com/img/2640.../heat-pump.php

You can view the Friedrich line he
http://www.friedrich.com/pdf/Ductles...s_Brochure.pdf

The Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim" is another popular choice and you can learn
more about their offerings he

http://www.mrslim.com/UploadedFiles/..._final_9-8.pdf

I had read BGE will be increasing their residential utility rates by a
whopping 72 per cent! With that in mind, I would recommend a heat
pump with a high SEER and HSPF rating -- preferably a SEER in the
range of 16 to 20 and a HSPF of at least 8.0 and, better yet, 9 or 10.
You'll pay a little more upfront, but a heat pump with a high HSPF
produces far more heat in sub-freezing weather and at a much lower
operating cost.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:29:44 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

Since you currently have electric baseboard heat and therefore I take
it no existing ductwork, I would highly recommend a ductless heat pump
(a multi-zone model most likely). A ductless heat pump can be
installed very easily and without any disruption to your living space
-- no cutting of walls and floors, no loss of interior or closet
space, no re-drywalling, no repainting and no construction dust.

A high efficiency ductless heat pump can cut your space heating costs
by 70 per cent and your cooling costs in half. It will improve the
outward appearance and security of your home; i.e., no unsightly
window air conditioners that can leave you venerable to break-ins.
They're also incredibly quiet.

I've been speaking with someone in another newsgroup who lives in
Montréal, a city much colder than your own. He tells me that even at
-1F, his ductless heat pump can still heat his entire home and at half
the cost of resistance heat.

He has a Fujitsu model 24RL. You can obtain more information on this
product he

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06...6_brochure.pdf

I have oil-fired hot water baseboard heating and a year and a half ago
I installed a small Friedrich ductless heat pump (it's a rebranded
Fujitsu). It has cut my heating costs by more than half.

This is a picture of the inside air handler, which is located in my
living room:

http://server4.pictiger.com/img/2640.../heat-pump.php

You can view the Friedrich line he
http://www.friedrich.com/pdf/Ductles...s_Brochure.pdf

The Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim" is another popular choice and you can learn
more about their offerings he

http://www.mrslim.com/UploadedFiles/..._final_9-8.pdf

I had read BGE will be increasing their residential utility rates by a
whopping 72 per cent! With that in mind, I would recommend a heat
pump with a high SEER and HSPF rating -- preferably a SEER in the
range of 16 to 20 and a HSPF of at least 8.0 and, better yet, 9 or 10.
You'll pay a little more upfront, but a heat pump with a high HSPF
produces far more heat in sub-freezing weather and at a much lower
operating cost.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:29:44 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Paul, thanks for the useful information. I'll check out each link.
BGE rates going up - I suspect the "delivery charge" will be going up too.
Nobody has ever saved money using deregulated gas or electric.
What a major rip off.

Mike

Hi Mike,

You're welcome. Domestic natural gas production peaked back in 1973.
I believe current U.S. demand is somewhere around 22 trillion cubic
feet per year, twenty per cent of which is imported from outside
sources. As domestic production continues to fall and as demand
continues to rise, this ever-widening gap will be made up through
additional imports. That puts the U.S. in an unenviable position both
economically and politically speaking, and in terms of its national
security. See where I'm going here?

Your best course of action is to aggressively reduce your home's
energy demands through generous insulation and careful air sealing.
That should be your number one priority. Once you've done everything
you can on that front, investigate your heating options and choose the
one likely to offer the lowest long-term operating costs and the
greatest security of supply. I don't know much about BGE's fuel mix
but I seem to recall it's heavily weighted towards nuclear and coal,
both domestic sources.

As it stands now, a high efficiency heat pump can provide heat at less
than one-third the cost of your current heating system and even below
that of a high efficiency gas furnace. Over the long term, I tend to
believe it's one of your best choices.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:26:42 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Hi Paul, thanks for the useful information. I'll check out each link.
BGE rates going up - I suspect the "delivery charge" will be going up too.
Nobody has ever saved money using deregulated gas or electric.
What a major rip off.

Mike

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

You're welcome. Domestic natural gas production peaked back in 1973.
I believe current U.S. demand is somewhere around 22 trillion cubic
feet per year, twenty per cent of which is imported from outside
sources. As domestic production continues to fall and as demand
continues to rise, this ever-widening gap will be made up through
additional imports. That puts the U.S. in an unenviable position both
economically and politically speaking, and in terms of its national
security. See where I'm going here?

Your best course of action is to aggressively reduce your home's
energy demands through generous insulation and careful air sealing.
That should be your number one priority. Once you've done everything
you can on that front, investigate your heating options and choose the
one likely to offer the lowest long-term operating costs and the
greatest security of supply. I don't know much about BGE's fuel mix
but I seem to recall it's heavily weighted towards nuclear and coal,
both domestic sources.

As it stands now, a high efficiency heat pump can provide heat at less
than one-third the cost of your current heating system and even below
that of a high efficiency gas furnace. Over the long term, I tend to
believe it's one of your best choices.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, BGE energy production comes from nuclear and coal and just enough
natural gas so the can use the cost of natural gas for ALL of the cost to
produce energy. All energy produces do this and it's legal.

Insulating and HP seems to be the way to go. Tomorrow I'll print out the
descriptions of the heat pumps.
It is appealing to leave the baseboard electric heaters in place and add the
heat pump.

Mike

Hi Mike,

At this stage you've already taken the big hit in terms of your rate
adjustment. Unfortunately, this is what happens when regulators lock
prices at artificially low levels for, what was it? Ten years?

When you don't pay the true cost, consumers will use far more
electricity than they would otherwise and will logically forego
investments in energy conservation and more efficient end-use
technologies such as heat pumps. And who can blame them? It's the
perfectly rational thing to do.

But now the ride has come to an end and consumers are faced with the
new reality. Hopefully most have prepared for this day, but for those
who haven't, the pain has only begun.

Please keep us informed of your progress and, by all means, let me
know if I can help you in any way.

Cheers,
Pau;

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:39:59 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Paul, BGE energy production comes from nuclear and coal and just enough
natural gas so the can use the cost of natural gas for ALL of the cost to
produce energy. All energy produces do this and it's legal.

Insulating and HP seems to be the way to go. Tomorrow I'll print out the
descriptions of the heat pumps.
It is appealing to leave the baseboard electric heaters in place and add the
heat pump.

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat Pumps.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

--

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air
conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit.
Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less
effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?


He has to enter that ( kwh ) for himself....varies considerably depending on
your location...pretty sure IM at $.058/ kwh last I checked--"cheap
hydro"...


Anyways, run the program twice, first using baseboard heat then run through
it a second time using heat pump....

Actual value entered for propane isnt important, ( unless someone is using,
or considereing converting to it)...but suggest just use same cost / gal
value both times...

===

IIRC my brother is getting nailed at 3 ~bux /gallon--Seattle,Wa
area.--understandably, I've disabled the gas portion of his furnace just
recently...

Still need to log further info, but appears after a couple weeks worth of
"intelligent adaptive recovery" and what with his night temps being ~ 25 and
with 45 daytime told me yesterday he might occasionally fall short by a
couple degrees tops at the morning recovery period--so guessing at least
someone actually did an accurate heat load analysis upon initial install.

Like I say, outdoors reset stat is to be permanently installed soon--which
brings out the big guns only on as-needed basis.

===

FWIW, still think the Taystat 103 is a sucky system--esp where total lockout
occurs--but still is absolutely needed where you have HP coils downstream in
the airflow from the gas HX.

Not rocket science, still will probly eventually put up a link to the
schemtic with crossed out connections etc.

Meanwhile, Joseph and Pat can also more than likely assist if you happen to
find yourself with a customer that's wanting to ramp down on gas usage,
perhaps with the attendant addition / installation of of larger capacity
heat pump system.

IIRC, your in the corn belt--then if so pay close attention to a/c
mode...dehumidifican problems and short cycling definately can be a problem
where yuo have oversized a heat pump for to deal primarily with the heating
load.

--

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western
exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air
conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit.
Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less
effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install
Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?


He has to enter that ( kwh ) for himself....varies considerably depending
on
your location...pretty sure IM at $.058/ kwh last I checked--"cheap
hydro"...

True... 6 cents/kwh is pretty darn cheap!

IIRC my brother is getting nailed at 3 ~bux /gallon--Seattle,Wa

OooooOoooooOooooooUCH!!!!!!!!

IIRC, your in the corn belt--then if so pay close attention to a/c
mode...dehumidifican problems and short cycling definately can be a
problem
where yuo have oversized a heat pump for to deal primarily with the
heating
load.

That's why one should size for the cooling system. :-)

Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

eeerrrr.... aahhhhh.. . . . end of group.

Mike wrote:
"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

eeerrrr.... aahhhhh.. . . . end of group.




Around here we call them EOR End Of Row like in rowhouses

"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike wrote:
"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

eeerrrr.... aahhhhh.. . . . end of group.




Around here we call them EOR End Of Row like in rowhouses

Makes sense to me. Semantics