Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

On Jan 27, 11:29 am, "Mike" wrote:
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

I imagine you are probably going to end up with an electric furnace
with a heat pump.

As far as I know this is about as efficient as you can get using
electric.

But bear in mind the cost of this is going to be thousands of dollars
It could be a while before you hit break even on your energy bills.

Hi Mike,

Since you currently have electric baseboard heat and therefore I take
it no existing ductwork, I would highly recommend a ductless heat pump
(a multi-zone model most likely). A ductless heat pump can be
installed very easily and without any disruption to your living space
-- no cutting of walls and floors, no loss of interior or closet
space, no re-drywalling, no repainting and no construction dust.

A high efficiency ductless heat pump can cut your space heating costs
by 70 per cent and your cooling costs in half. It will improve the
outward appearance and security of your home; i.e., no unsightly
window air conditioners that can leave you venerable to break-ins.
They're also incredibly quiet.

I've been speaking with someone in another newsgroup who lives in
Montréal, a city much colder than your own. He tells me that even at
-1F, his ductless heat pump can still heat his entire home and at half
the cost of resistance heat.

He has a Fujitsu model 24RL. You can obtain more information on this
product he

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06...6_brochure.pdf

I have oil-fired hot water baseboard heating and a year and a half ago
I installed a small Friedrich ductless heat pump (it's a rebranded
Fujitsu). It has cut my heating costs by more than half.

This is a picture of the inside air handler, which is located in my
living room:

http://server4.pictiger.com/img/2640.../heat-pump.php

You can view the Friedrich line he
http://www.friedrich.com/pdf/Ductles...s_Brochure.pdf

The Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim" is another popular choice and you can learn
more about their offerings he

http://www.mrslim.com/UploadedFiles/..._final_9-8.pdf

I had read BGE will be increasing their residential utility rates by a
whopping 72 per cent! With that in mind, I would recommend a heat
pump with a high SEER and HSPF rating -- preferably a SEER in the
range of 16 to 20 and a HSPF of at least 8.0 and, better yet, 9 or 10.
You'll pay a little more upfront, but a heat pump with a high HSPF
produces far more heat in sub-freezing weather and at a much lower
operating cost.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:29:44 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat Pumps.

wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 27, 11:29 am, "Mike" wrote:
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

I imagine you are probably going to end up with an electric furnace
with a heat pump.

As far as I know this is about as efficient as you can get using
electric.

But bear in mind the cost of this is going to be thousands of dollars
It could be a while before you hit break even on your energy bills.


I've got a gas stove and water heater. How can I convert BTU/therms to kw
so I can compare costs?

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

Since you currently have electric baseboard heat and therefore I take
it no existing ductwork, I would highly recommend a ductless heat pump
(a multi-zone model most likely). A ductless heat pump can be
installed very easily and without any disruption to your living space
-- no cutting of walls and floors, no loss of interior or closet
space, no re-drywalling, no repainting and no construction dust.

A high efficiency ductless heat pump can cut your space heating costs
by 70 per cent and your cooling costs in half. It will improve the
outward appearance and security of your home; i.e., no unsightly
window air conditioners that can leave you venerable to break-ins.
They're also incredibly quiet.

I've been speaking with someone in another newsgroup who lives in
Montréal, a city much colder than your own. He tells me that even at
-1F, his ductless heat pump can still heat his entire home and at half
the cost of resistance heat.

He has a Fujitsu model 24RL. You can obtain more information on this
product he

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06...6_brochure.pdf

I have oil-fired hot water baseboard heating and a year and a half ago
I installed a small Friedrich ductless heat pump (it's a rebranded
Fujitsu). It has cut my heating costs by more than half.

This is a picture of the inside air handler, which is located in my
living room:

http://server4.pictiger.com/img/2640.../heat-pump.php

You can view the Friedrich line he
http://www.friedrich.com/pdf/Ductles...s_Brochure.pdf

The Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim" is another popular choice and you can learn
more about their offerings he

http://www.mrslim.com/UploadedFiles/..._final_9-8.pdf

I had read BGE will be increasing their residential utility rates by a
whopping 72 per cent! With that in mind, I would recommend a heat
pump with a high SEER and HSPF rating -- preferably a SEER in the
range of 16 to 20 and a HSPF of at least 8.0 and, better yet, 9 or 10.
You'll pay a little more upfront, but a heat pump with a high HSPF
produces far more heat in sub-freezing weather and at a much lower
operating cost.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:29:44 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Paul, thanks for the useful information. I'll check out each link.
BGE rates going up - I suspect the "delivery charge" will be going up too.
Nobody has ever saved money using deregulated gas or electric.
What a major rip off.

Mike

Hi Mike,

There are 100,000 BTUs per therm of natural gas, or the equivalent of
29.3 kWh of electric heat.

A mid efficiency furnace operating at 80 per cent efficiency will
provide you with 23.4 kWh of heat per therm (the other 5.9 kWh being
lost up the chimney). A high efficiency furnace with a 90 per cent
efficiency rating would give you 26.4 kWh/therm and at the very top
end of the scale you might achieve upwards of 28 kWh/therm.

It looks like BGE is currently charging residential customers $1.30
per therm (commodity and delivery prices combined). At 80 per cent
conversion efficiency, each kWh of gas heat costs you roughly 5.5
cents and at 90 per cent efficiency, that cost falls to 4.9 cents per
kWh(e).

I believe BGE's winter electric rate now stands at 12.73 cents per
kWh. A high efficiency heat pump with a seasonal COP of between 2.5
and 3.0 (not an unreasonable number given your relatively moderate
winters), would produce heat in the range of 4.2 to 5.1 cents per
kWh(e).

One of the Fujitsu ductless heat pumps has a HSPF of 11.0, which puts
its seasonal COP at just over 3.2. That effectively reduces the cost
of electric heat to just 3.9 cents per kWh(e), or some twenty per cent
below that of a high efficiency gas furnace operating at 90 per cent
efficiency.

One of the nice things about a ductless heat pump is that you can
simply leave your electric baseboard heaters in place, so there's no
need to rip them out, re-plaster your walls and repaint your rooms.
This also provides you with backup emergency heat should your heat
pump require servicing.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:22:31 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

I've got a gas stove and water heater. How can I convert BTU/therms to kw
so I can compare costs?

Hi Mike,

You're welcome. Domestic natural gas production peaked back in 1973.
I believe current U.S. demand is somewhere around 22 trillion cubic
feet per year, twenty per cent of which is imported from outside
sources. As domestic production continues to fall and as demand
continues to rise, this ever-widening gap will be made up through
additional imports. That puts the U.S. in an unenviable position both
economically and politically speaking, and in terms of its national
security. See where I'm going here?

Your best course of action is to aggressively reduce your home's
energy demands through generous insulation and careful air sealing.
That should be your number one priority. Once you've done everything
you can on that front, investigate your heating options and choose the
one likely to offer the lowest long-term operating costs and the
greatest security of supply. I don't know much about BGE's fuel mix
but I seem to recall it's heavily weighted towards nuclear and coal,
both domestic sources.

As it stands now, a high efficiency heat pump can provide heat at less
than one-third the cost of your current heating system and even below
that of a high efficiency gas furnace. Over the long term, I tend to
believe it's one of your best choices.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:26:42 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Hi Paul, thanks for the useful information. I'll check out each link.
BGE rates going up - I suspect the "delivery charge" will be going up too.
Nobody has ever saved money using deregulated gas or electric.
What a major rip off.

Mike

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

--

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit. Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air
conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit.
Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less
effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?


He has to enter that ( kwh ) for himself....varies considerably depending on
your location...pretty sure IM at $.058/ kwh last I checked--"cheap
hydro"...


Anyways, run the program twice, first using baseboard heat then run through
it a second time using heat pump....

Actual value entered for propane isnt important, ( unless someone is using,
or considereing converting to it)...but suggest just use same cost / gal
value both times...

===

IIRC my brother is getting nailed at 3 ~bux /gallon--Seattle,Wa
area.--understandably, I've disabled the gas portion of his furnace just
recently...

Still need to log further info, but appears after a couple weeks worth of
"intelligent adaptive recovery" and what with his night temps being ~ 25 and
with 45 daytime told me yesterday he might occasionally fall short by a
couple degrees tops at the morning recovery period--so guessing at least
someone actually did an accurate heat load analysis upon initial install.

Like I say, outdoors reset stat is to be permanently installed soon--which
brings out the big guns only on as-needed basis.

===

FWIW, still think the Taystat 103 is a sucky system--esp where total lockout
occurs--but still is absolutely needed where you have HP coils downstream in
the airflow from the gas HX.

Not rocket science, still will probly eventually put up a link to the
schemtic with crossed out connections etc.

Meanwhile, Joseph and Pat can also more than likely assist if you happen to
find yourself with a customer that's wanting to ramp down on gas usage,
perhaps with the attendant addition / installation of of larger capacity
heat pump system.

IIRC, your in the corn belt--then if so pay close attention to a/c
mode...dehumidifican problems and short cycling definately can be a problem
where yuo have oversized a heat pump for to deal primarily with the heating
load.

--

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western
exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air
conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit.
Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less
effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install
Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?


He has to enter that ( kwh ) for himself....varies considerably depending
on
your location...pretty sure IM at $.058/ kwh last I checked--"cheap
hydro"...

True... 6 cents/kwh is pretty darn cheap!

IIRC my brother is getting nailed at 3 ~bux /gallon--Seattle,Wa

OooooOoooooOooooooUCH!!!!!!!!

IIRC, your in the corn belt--then if so pay close attention to a/c
mode...dehumidifican problems and short cycling definately can be a
problem
where yuo have oversized a heat pump for to deal primarily with the
heating
load.

That's why one should size for the cooling system. :-)

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
news:Y5Luh.315$Hb6.2@trndny02...
Hi, I live in a 70 y/o EOG rowhouse with southern & western
exposure
located
in Baltimore, MD.
The house has electric baseboard heating and window air
conditioners.
Utilities were recently deregulated
and I believe I need to install a more efficient heating unit.
Might
as
well install central air at the same time.

I understand there are new high efficiency units that can save a
bundle
in
utility costs but they need to installed by
a crew that's trained to install them otherwise the are less
effcient
than
the other systems.

Recommendations for HVAC companies are also needed.

Any recommendations for highly effcient replacement windows at a
resonalble
cost?
(will chck consumers union website)

Thanks,

Mike

Depending on your local utility rates, you might want to install
Heat
Pumps.


He's in Baltimore.

http://www.usepropane.com/esc/

But the real question is, what is his utility rates?


He has to enter that ( kwh ) for himself....varies considerably
depending
on
your location...pretty sure IM at $.058/ kwh last I checked--"cheap
hydro"...

True... 6 cents/kwh is pretty darn cheap!

IIRC my brother is getting nailed at 3 ~bux /gallon--Seattle,Wa

OooooOoooooOooooooUCH!!!!!!!!

IIRC, your in the corn belt--then if so pay close attention to a/c
mode...dehumidifican problems and short cycling definately can be a
problem
where yuo have oversized a heat pump for to deal primarily with the
heating
load.

That's why one should size for the cooling system. :-)


Apparently, cost structure was more favorable towards propane near to a
decade ago--when the sys was initially installed....main benefit to having
the heat pump being the luxury of having cooling...

Still makes no sense--if the gas is cheaper then just kill the HP on heating
altogheter.

Diferent situation in the machine shop here though, I have tools that
actually produce a significant heat load--nice during winter but becomes a
burden during summertime.

---

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

Apparently, cost structure was more favorable towards propane near to a
decade ago--when the sys was initially installed....main benefit to having
the heat pump being the luxury of having cooling...

Still makes no sense--if the gas is cheaper then just kill the HP on
heating
altogheter.

LP and Nat used to be cheap fuels. But as time goes by, they continue to
rise dramatically while the electric costs have had slight increases.

With new product designs and affiances, today a heat pump can often save you
a significantly large amount of money in operational costs.

I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they can save (or
spend) with varying heat sources. They don't understand it, till they see
the actual numbers.

Many people are switching to corn burners. But with the evolution of ethanol
being used for automotive purposes, the costs of corn is increasing. So this
only raises their heating bills. Making the heat pump look better once
again.

One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

Apparently, cost structure was more favorable towards propane near to a
decade ago--when the sys was initially installed....main benefit to
having
the heat pump being the luxury of having cooling...

Still makes no sense--if the gas is cheaper then just kill the HP on
heating
altogheter.

LP and Nat used to be cheap fuels. But as time goes by, they continue to
rise dramatically while the electric costs have had slight increases.

With new product designs and affiances, today a heat pump can often save
you
a significantly large amount of money in operational costs.


I woud kil the crossposteing but im too drunkat present....besides, the
topic at least fits.

Ya want cheep then go geothermal, closed or even open loop--here we have
well-water-a- plenty-

Cmes outa the ground at ~51 deg F--I just pump and dump.....over onto the
freeway right-of-way it goes.


I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they can save
(or
spend) with varying heat sources. They don't understand it, till they see
the actual numbers.


Then if it sells, great....so long as it saves long-term.


Many people are switching to corn burners. But with the evolution of
ethanol
being used for automotive purposes, the costs of corn is increasing. So
this
only raises their heating bills. Making the heat pump look better once
again.


Yes, esp here where electric rates have remained fairly stable.


One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.


Well the one thing that is constant--if you burning any hydrocarbon fuel
then it depletes fossil reserves, as well as contributing to escalation of
co co2 into the atmosphere.

Suggest then plant some trees--it's the only thing available to Joe Sixpak
that effectively re-sequesters the carbon by-products back into the soil.

--

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote in message
...

Apparently, cost structure was more favorable towards propane near to a
decade ago--when the sys was initially installed....main benefit to
having
the heat pump being the luxury of having cooling...

Still makes no sense--if the gas is cheaper then just kill the HP on
heating
altogheter.

LP and Nat used to be cheap fuels. But as time goes by, they continue to
rise dramatically while the electric costs have had slight increases.

With new product designs and affiances, today a heat pump can often save
you
a significantly large amount of money in operational costs.

I have designed a spreadsheet to show my clients how much they can save
(or
spend) with varying heat sources. They don't understand it, till they see
the actual numbers.

Many people are switching to corn burners. But with the evolution of
ethanol
being used for automotive purposes, the costs of corn is increasing. So
this
only raises their heating bills. Making the heat pump look better once
again.

One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

You bring up good ponts. Can I get a copy of your spreadsheet?

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

You're welcome. Domestic natural gas production peaked back in 1973.
I believe current U.S. demand is somewhere around 22 trillion cubic
feet per year, twenty per cent of which is imported from outside
sources. As domestic production continues to fall and as demand
continues to rise, this ever-widening gap will be made up through
additional imports. That puts the U.S. in an unenviable position both
economically and politically speaking, and in terms of its national
security. See where I'm going here?

Your best course of action is to aggressively reduce your home's
energy demands through generous insulation and careful air sealing.
That should be your number one priority. Once you've done everything
you can on that front, investigate your heating options and choose the
one likely to offer the lowest long-term operating costs and the
greatest security of supply. I don't know much about BGE's fuel mix
but I seem to recall it's heavily weighted towards nuclear and coal,
both domestic sources.

As it stands now, a high efficiency heat pump can provide heat at less
than one-third the cost of your current heating system and even below
that of a high efficiency gas furnace. Over the long term, I tend to
believe it's one of your best choices.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, BGE energy production comes from nuclear and coal and just enough
natural gas so the can use the cost of natural gas for ALL of the cost to
produce energy. All energy produces do this and it's legal.

Insulating and HP seems to be the way to go. Tomorrow I'll print out the
descriptions of the heat pumps.
It is appealing to leave the baseboard electric heaters in place and add the
heat pump.

Mike

As you probably know, LP is derived from either oil or natural gas and
its price thus closely follows these other two fuels. And since the
U.S. is a net importer of oil and gas and since the gap between supply
and demand continues to grow wider day by day, its price is likely to
become increasingly volatile over time, with the long-term trend
pointing upward. Also worth noting you'll be competing (should I say
fighting?) with the rest of the world for these resources as they
become increasingly more scarce.

Electricity prices are likely to remain more stable over the long
term, as a good portion is generated by way of coal and nuclear (both
domestic resources) and therefore not subject to the same external
market forces. Plus electricity can capitalize on a growing portfolio
of renewable resources such as wind, small hydro, geothermal, solar,
etc., that generally have very low operating costs and, thankfully,
much more modest environmental impact. This will further add to the
diversity in supply and perhaps help dampen price pressures on other
competing fuels.

I don't want to suggest everyone race out to their local home
improvement store and buy armfuls of electric baseboard heaters; that
would be insane. However, when it comes time to evaluate your heating
options, I hope a geothermal or air source heat pump will be added to
the list.

As previously noted, a high efficiency heat pump can produce three
times more heat, per kWh, than an electric baseboard heater, even in
cold, northern climates. I can buy a ductless heat pump today with a
21 SEER rating and a HSPF of 11.0 -- that's double the efficiency of
many heat pumps now in service. And the good news is that the
Japanese are working hard to advance that bar even higher, which begs
the question: where's America's leadership in this area?

Looking at it another way, if I were to switch from electric baseboard
heat to a high efficiency heat pump, electricity prices could double
or triple and I would still pay less per month than what I do now.
That's precisely the long-term price protection a high efficiency heat
pump can offer me today.

As always, do whatever you can to lower your heating and cooling
requirements through generous insulation and careful air sealing.
Then, and only then, take a look at some of the alternative heating
systems that have the potential to dramatically lower your monthly
energy costs.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 03:19:08 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

LP and Nat used to be cheap fuels. But as time goes by, they continue to
rise dramatically while the electric costs have had slight increases.

With new product designs and affiances, today a heat pump can often save you
a significantly large amount of money in operational costs...

Hi Mike,

At this stage you've already taken the big hit in terms of your rate
adjustment. Unfortunately, this is what happens when regulators lock
prices at artificially low levels for, what was it? Ten years?

When you don't pay the true cost, consumers will use far more
electricity than they would otherwise and will logically forego
investments in energy conservation and more efficient end-use
technologies such as heat pumps. And who can blame them? It's the
perfectly rational thing to do.

But now the ride has come to an end and consumers are faced with the
new reality. Hopefully most have prepared for this day, but for those
who haven't, the pain has only begun.

Please keep us informed of your progress and, by all means, let me
know if I can help you in any way.

Cheers,
Pau;

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:39:59 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Paul, BGE energy production comes from nuclear and coal and just enough
natural gas so the can use the cost of natural gas for ALL of the cost to
produce energy. All energy produces do this and it's legal.

Insulating and HP seems to be the way to go. Tomorrow I'll print out the
descriptions of the heat pumps.
It is appealing to leave the baseboard electric heaters in place and add the
heat pump.

Mike

As an addendum to my previous note, I came across this on the
Bloomberg,com website earlier today:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...0&refer=energy

Tony Blair, speaking of the U.K.'s own declining North Sea oil and gas
reserves and the subsequent future of nuclear power in that country
spelled it out in rather blunt terms.... ``We are going to move from
self sufficiency in gas to importing 90 percent of it'.

North Sea production peaked in 1999 and has been steadily falling ever
since.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, Steve Cothran wrote:

One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

For years the fuel of choice in a rural setting was propane. It was
70-90 cents/gal. Now it is 2.10/gal and btu for btu yielded you can
heat with low-tech electric resistance heat for less money.

1 Million BTU Electricity = $24.90 (TN)

$24.90 would be about 400 KWH here, and that
could produce more than 1.2 million BTU.

1 Million BTU Propane (80% Furnace)=$28.46

Out of curiosity I checked the price for propane
17 pound bottle refills at Lowes, and it was $18, that
is a lot more than $2.10 a gallon, isn't it.

But maybe in bulk it is cheaper.

The temperature here fell through -10 C
during daylight here today, and that could mean
life threatening temperatures without backup heat,
regardless of what the fuel is, furnaces and anything
else can fail even if there is plenty of fuel.

The high tech furnaces are a threat, even
if they are supposed to be more efficient, fuel cost
is not as important as avoiding unsafe temperatures.

Joe Fischer

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, Steve Cothran wrote:

One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

For years the fuel of choice in a rural setting was propane. It was
70-90 cents/gal. Now it is 2.10/gal and btu for btu yielded you can
heat with low-tech electric resistance heat for less money.

1 Million BTU Electricity = $24.90 (TN)

$24.90 would be about 400 KWH here, and that
could produce more than 1.2 million BTU.

1 Million BTU Propane (80% Furnace)=$28.46

Out of curiosity I checked the price for propane
17 pound bottle refills at Lowes, and it was $18, that
is a lot more than $2.10 a gallon, isn't it.

But maybe in bulk it is cheaper.


Bulk is definately cheaper than having a 20 lb tank filled.


The temperature here fell through -10 C
during daylight here today, and that could mean
life threatening temperatures without backup heat,
regardless of what the fuel is, furnaces and anything
else can fail even if there is plenty of fuel.

The high tech furnaces are a threat, even
if they are supposed to be more efficient, fuel cost
is not as important as avoiding unsafe temperatures.

Joe Fischer


"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that horse****?

One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

For years the fuel of choice in a rural setting was propane. It was
70-90 cents/gal. Now it is 2.10/gal and btu for btu yielded you can
heat with low-tech electric resistance heat for less money.

1 Million BTU Electricity = $24.90 (TN)

1 Million BTU Propane (80% Furnace)=$28.46

Steve Cothran wrote:
One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

For years the fuel of choice in a rural setting was propane. It was
70-90 cents/gal. Now it is 2.10/gal and btu for btu yielded you can
heat with low-tech electric resistance heat for less money.

1 Million BTU Electricity = $24.90 (TN)

1 Million BTU Propane (80% Furnace)=$28.46

1 Million BTU = 293 kWh * $0.15 (NY) = $43.95

Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I
had electric, I freeze to death.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
Steve Cothran wrote:
One thing is constant, and that is, that things are always changing.
Something that is effective today may not be tomorrow.

For years the fuel of choice in a rural setting was propane. It was
70-90 cents/gal. Now it is 2.10/gal and btu for btu yielded you can
heat with low-tech electric resistance heat for less money.

1 Million BTU Electricity = $24.90 (TN)

1 Million BTU Propane (80% Furnace)=$28.46

1 Million BTU = 293 kWh * $0.15 (NY) = $43.95

Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I
had electric, I freeze to death.

What's the cost on a gal of LP up there?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


What's the cost on a gal of LP up there?



Last fill up was $2.20/gallon.

100 gallon minimum.


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

There are 100,000 BTUs per therm of natural gas, or the equivalent of
29.3 kWh of electric heat.

A mid efficiency furnace operating at 80 per cent efficiency will
provide you with 23.4 kWh of heat per therm (the other 5.9 kWh being
lost up the chimney). A high efficiency furnace with a 90 per cent
efficiency rating would give you 26.4 kWh/therm and at the very top
end of the scale you might achieve upwards of 28 kWh/therm.

It looks like BGE is currently charging residential customers $1.30
per therm (commodity and delivery prices combined). At 80 per cent
conversion efficiency, each kWh of gas heat costs you roughly 5.5
cents and at 90 per cent efficiency, that cost falls to 4.9 cents per
kWh(e).

I believe BGE's winter electric rate now stands at 12.73 cents per
kWh. A high efficiency heat pump with a seasonal COP of between 2.5
and 3.0 (not an unreasonable number given your relatively moderate
winters), would produce heat in the range of 4.2 to 5.1 cents per
kWh(e).

One of the Fujitsu ductless heat pumps has a HSPF of 11.0, which puts
its seasonal COP at just over 3.2. That effectively reduces the cost
of electric heat to just 3.9 cents per kWh(e), or some twenty per cent
below that of a high efficiency gas furnace operating at 90 per cent
efficiency.

One of the nice things about a ductless heat pump is that you can
simply leave your electric baseboard heaters in place, so there's no
need to rip them out, re-plaster your walls and repaint your rooms.
This also provides you with backup emergency heat should your heat
pump require servicing.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:22:31 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

I've got a gas stove and water heater. How can I convert BTU/therms to kw
so I can compare costs?

Paul, another poster stated the cost on NG is going up, and I assume, might
even surpass electricso the HP is evenn more appealing. How does it cool in
the rooms in the summer?

Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

Hi Mike,

I don't think anyone can accurately predict the long-term cost of
natural gas, but I tend to believe it will only go up... most likely,
way up.

Canada now supplies 90 per cent of U.S. imports and most of that gas
originates in Alberta. The bad news is that Alberta's fields are
rapidly maturing and production will soon begin its inevitable
decline.

But that's just part of the story. It takes 1,000 cubic feet of
natural gas to process each barrel of oil made from Alberta's tar
sands (add four barrels of fresh water to the mix while you're at it).
By 2015, these oil sands are expected to produce two million barrels
of oil per day. Now do the math.... multiple two million barrels by
1,000 cubic feet, then multiple by 365 days in a year. Anyone want to
guess where a good chunk of that Canadian gas will soon be going?

I don't know about you, but I get that queasy feeling in the pit of my
stomach. Oh, while we're at it, can anyone tell me where those eight
million barrels of water (per day) will go once they finish processing
all that oily, sticky tar? ... Someone? ... Anyone?

In regards to cooling, they work great. A heat pump with a SEER
rating of 20 or 21 is likely to be two to two-and-a-half times more
energy efficient than your current window units. I'm happy to say
they cool just as well as they heat.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, another poster stated the cost on NG is going up, and I assume, might
even surpass electricso the HP is evenn more appealing. How does it cool in
the rooms in the summer?

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:39:55 -0500, Steve Spence
wrote:



1 Million BTU = 293 kWh * $0.15 (NY) = $43.95

Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I
had electric, I freeze to death.

Ouch. Our electic rate here is ~0.085/kwh depending on usage. Don't
know how long that will last, though.

With most recent statement in hand....

I pay Superior Propane $1.008 per litre. My bill includes a $6.00
"transportation fee" and an additional $3.95 "hazardous mat handling
fee". My consumption during this billing period was 94.5 litres and
my total bill, including tax, comes to $119.93.

There are approximately 24,200 BTUs per litre of propane (7.1 kWh).
If I multiple 94.5 litres by 24,200 BTUs, the result is 2,286,900
BTUs.

That means one million BTUs cost me $52.44. That's the equivalent of
buying electricity at $0.18 per kWh. Assuming an 80 per cent
conversion efficiency, my actual cost per kWh(e) is just over $0.22.

The net result is that I pay more than twice as much for propane as I
do electricty.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:03:07 -0800, Steve Cothran
wrote:

Ouch. Our electic rate here is ~0.085/kwh depending on usage. Don't
know how long that will last, though.

On Sun, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that

Ask the, about a million, people who lost power
for a week or more in the plains and west coast.

It would help if each one were installed with a
big warning sign "Be sure to have a backup heating
system if the power goes off".

I seriously doubt if one out of a thousand
homes have an emergency generator, and even
some that do could not isolate the furnace circuit
and run it.

But I am prejudiced, I don't like the noise
of the small duct forced air.

Joe Fischer

"Tekkie®" wrote in message
. ..
Mike posted for all of us...

EOG rowhouse

What is EOG rowhouse? End of Grid? Huh?
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

eeerrrr.... aahhhhh.. . . . end of group.

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

At this stage you've already taken the big hit in terms of your rate
adjustment. Unfortunately, this is what happens when regulators lock
prices at artificially low levels for, what was it? Ten years?

When you don't pay the true cost, consumers will use far more
electricity than they would otherwise and will logically forego
investments in energy conservation and more efficient end-use
technologies such as heat pumps. And who can blame them? It's the
perfectly rational thing to do.

But now the ride has come to an end and consumers are faced with the
new reality. Hopefully most have prepared for this day, but for those
who haven't, the pain has only begun.

Please keep us informed of your progress and, by all means, let me
know if I can help you in any way.

Paul, Thank you much for you useful comments. I will keep the group
informed. Also, I've learned alot. Today I was talking some buddies about
HPs. Apparently, they have improved quite a bit over the last few years.


Electric - BGE and Constellation Energy made very substanial profits even
though the rates were frozen since 1999. BGE, when regulated produced
reliable power and always paid dividends to its stock holders. It was a
stock many conservative investors owned. Then Enron and others lobbied
(bought) the local polictioans in Annapolis and after power producers were
decoupled from the power transmitters
and the rates were deregulated resulting in the maintenance of the grid
going to pot and the rates are in a continuous
upward spiral. The local power grids were not designed to import power from
other areas thus they are
overstressed and are facing premature failure. Of course there is no method
to store electric so it is not
a commodity that be stored 'til it's needed. In some areas transmissions
costs are approaching
electric rates in some deregulated markets. I don't know of anybody who has
saved a nickel in rates when
switching to deregulated electric power. Sorry I digress. It just really
****es me off. I'm a free market guy when it serves a purpose. BTW, A
large energy intensive business just left Maryland and moved to state w/
regulated electric because it was no longer profitable using overpriced
deregulated energy. Most states who had been moving to deregualtion no
longer are because they're a seeing the profound impact it has.

Mike

"Steve Spence" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


What's the cost on a gal of LP up there?



Last fill up was $2.20/gallon.

100 gallon minimum.

Not to bad then, I figured with your electric cost that it would have been
higher than that.

Hi Mike,

I can appreciate your frustration. What I find funny is how major
power consumers vigorously fought for deregulation, fully expecting
electricity rates to go down. In most cases, that didn't happen
(quite the opposite) and some of those same voices were screaming to
have things put back as they once were.

We can bemoan high energy prices but at the end of the day we're no
further ahead. What we need to do is look for intelligent ways to use
less. For example, all of us might consider replacing the five
incandescent bulbs we use most frequently with CFLs; at $2.00 to $3.00
each, there's really no reason why any of us should be using a bulb
that consumes four times more energy than necessary.

When it comes time to replace that old refrigerator or dishwasher,
select an Energy Star model. A twenty-five or thirty year old
refrigerator could easily consume 2,000 or more kWhs per year; my
current refrigerator uses less than one-quarter of that. How many old
refrigerators sit in hot garages keeping one or two cases of beer
cold?

If you put your mind to it, you'll find a dozen different ways to
reduce your bill.

This Channel 4 presentation might help start the ball running. And
who knows? You too might save a "packet of money".

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PVGEk5Wlxk

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxfyiOtfD88

#3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQGtHpxvmLg

#4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S8DPfICQiM

#5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXqHrsTFv2Y

#6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAub4yoRZkc

Cheers,
Paul

Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I had
electric, I freeze to death.
Steve Spence

So how do you run the fan in the furnace when the power is out?

Donald

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
news
On Sun, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"high tech furnaces are a threat"???????????

How do you come up with that

Ask the, about a million, people who lost power
for a week or more in the plains and west coast.

It would help if each one were installed with a
big warning sign "Be sure to have a backup heating
system if the power goes off".

I seriously doubt if one out of a thousand
homes have an emergency generator, and even
some that do could not isolate the furnace circuit
and run it.

But I am prejudiced, I don't like the noise
of the small duct forced air.

Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:58:18 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???

Electric or electric controlled is fine for primary heat,
but I keep two Gas Fired SPACE heaters just for when
the electric is out. :-)

Actually, I have been lucky, power has not been
off more than 8 hours at a time.

My baseboard heat isn't working as well as I hoped,
even at 6 cents, it is expensive to heat just one room, small
kitchen and bath.

There really isn't much choice, it seems to be either
heat pump or modern furnace, depending on electric rates
and natural gas ups and downs.

My utility company offers free truck loads of mulch
when they are trimming trees in the area, but I would need
to build an incinerator type heating system for that.

The convenience of a modern heating system
of any kind really spoils people, the thought of chopping
wood seems like too much work, and it is too much for
me to think about.

Gas SPACE heaters can be built to be just as
efficient as the modern furnace, and I suppose I could
put ductwork for flame air and a heat exchanger in the
vent pipe, so I may need to do that next summer.

Joe Fischer

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:58:18 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Ok then,

With most modern every day piece of heating equipment... which one do you
recommend, that doesn't require ELECTRIC to operate?

Or are we to go back to the days of Gas Fired SPACE heaters???

Electric or electric controlled is fine for primary heat,
but I keep two Gas Fired SPACE heaters just for when
the electric is out. :-)


If you are going to have a back-up source for heat... and even if you
don't...
Then don't say "high tech furnace's are a threat".

The fact is, the newer, high tech, modern day furnace's are safer than the
old units.


My baseboard heat isn't working as well as I hoped,
even at 6 cents, it is expensive to heat just one room, small
kitchen and bath.


Expensive at 6 cents... something isn't right.
Of coarse a heat pump would be more economical than your straight electric
heat.


Gas SPACE heaters can be built to be just as
efficient as the modern furnace,


Going backwards in technology again are we?


and I suppose I could
put ductwork for flame air and a heat exchanger in the
vent pipe, so I may need to do that next summer.

Joe Fischer


You're starting to sound like an engineer that is wanting to spend $1000 to
save $5.
Good luck with that.