We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

blueman3333 wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

blueman3333 writes:
We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

One interesting additional (but probably unrelated fact)...
The only recent change to the system is that two days ago I installed
a condensate pump since previously all the condensate was just
dripping vertically down a 2-story 3/4" pvc pipe onto our crawl space
floor. I connected a short length of 5/8" clear flexible tube to the
end of the pvc pipe which then hangs over the basin of the condensate
pump. The condensate pump seems to be pumping the water fine.

Not sure how this could be related to my problem since the water is
draining by gravity into a basically open reservoir so I don't see how
it can be backed up two stories to the height of the furnace. However,
the timing is strangely coincidental...

blueman wrote:

blueman3333 writes:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!


One interesting additional (but probably unrelated fact)...
The only recent change to the system is that two days ago I installed
a condensate pump since previously all the condensate was just
dripping vertically down a 2-story 3/4" pvc pipe onto our crawl space
floor. I connected a short length of 5/8" clear flexible tube to the
end of the pvc pipe which then hangs over the basin of the condensate
pump. The condensate pump seems to be pumping the water fine.

Not sure how this could be related to my problem since the water is
draining by gravity into a basically open reservoir so I don't see how
it can be backed up two stories to the height of the furnace. However,
the timing is strangely coincidental...

Could you have bumped an electrical connector on the controller board
while installing it?

For instance, one for the flame sensor? :-)

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"blueman3333" wrote in message
...
We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

Bad thermostat.

Change to a digital thermostat and upgrade the wiring too.

CJT writes:
blueman3333 wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.

Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).

CJT writes:
blueman wrote:

blueman3333 writes:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white
hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!
One interesting additional (but probably unrelated fact)...
The only recent change to the system is that two days ago I installed
a condensate pump since previously all the condensate was just
dripping vertically down a 2-story 3/4" pvc pipe onto our crawl space
floor. I connected a short length of 5/8" clear flexible tube to the
end of the pvc pipe which then hangs over the basin of the condensate
pump. The condensate pump seems to be pumping the water fine.
Not sure how this could be related to my problem since the water is
draining by gravity into a basically open reservoir so I don't see how
it can be backed up two stories to the height of the furnace. However,
the timing is strangely coincidental...

Could you have bumped an electrical connector on the controller board
while installing it?

For instance, one for the flame sensor? :-)

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Nowhere near the controller -- I was just down in the crawl
space... unless somehow manipulating the pipe downstairs somehow moved
the other end on the second floor bumping something electrically...

"Bubba" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba

Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson, electrocution, or
the part about calling someone who doesn't have to guess, actually knows
where the basement is?

"blueman3333" wrote in message
...
We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

I once had similar symptoms (I have since moved).

I had a condensate pump, and it filled with "gunk" over time. I had a
contractor confirm this was the problem. He removed the pump, took it
outside, took a hose to it, reinstalled, and the problem resolved. Don't
actually know what the failure mechanism was, but this resolved it. It
happened again a year later, but I just cleaned the condensate pump again.
When I moved, I left a note for the buyers, and included a description for
them to rinse out the condensate pump about twice a year.

Don't know if this is the same problem as yours, but thought I'd share my
story.

"blueman3333" wrote in message
...
We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

I once had similar symptoms (I have since moved).

I had a condensate pump, and it filled with "gunk" over time. I had a
contractor confirm this was the problem. He removed the pump, took it
outside, took a hose to it, reinstalled, and the problem resolved. Don't
actually know what the failure mechanism was, but this resolved it. It
happened again a year later, but I just cleaned the condensate pump again.
When I moved, I left a note for the buyers, and included a description for
them to rinse out the condensate pump about twice a year.

Don't know if this is the same problem as yours, but thought I'd share my
story.

blueman wrote:
CJT writes:

blueman3333 wrote:


We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.


Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Minutes? I thought you said "a second or two."

It's entirely consistent with "a second or two" multiple times over
a span of minutes.


Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).

I've never seen your particular furnace. It might just be dirty.
Look for a little gadget with a window facing the flame and a couple
of wires coming out of it. Make sure the window isn't sooty and the
wires are still connected to the control board. Judge for yourself
how hard it would be to change it.

Of course, it could also be the associated control board electronics.
Less likely, IMHO, but possible.


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Mo Hoaner wrote:

"Bubba" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:


Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba


Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson, electrocution, or
the part about calling someone who doesn't have to guess, actually knows
where the basement is?


You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

blueman3333 writes:
We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Actually was looking at the wrong manual before.
According to the right manual for my model, the two possibilities a
1. Low gas pressure
2. Faulty gas valve

Does that make sense and sound right relative to the symptoms I have
described?

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

CJT writes:
blueman wrote:
CJT writes:

blueman3333 wrote:


We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.
Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Minutes? I thought you said "a second or two."

It initially burns for maybe 2-3 minutes without interruption. Then it
starts cycling with each subsequent flame lasting typically for 1-2
seconds or often even less (though sometimes I have seen it last as
long as 10 seconds).

It's entirely consistent with "a second or two" multiple times over
a span of minutes.

Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).

I've never seen your particular furnace. It might just be dirty.
Look for a little gadget with a window facing the flame and a couple
of wires coming out of it. Make sure the window isn't sooty and the
wires are still connected to the control board. Judge for yourself
how hard it would be to change it.

Of course, it could also be the associated control board electronics.
Less likely, IMHO, but possible.


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

blueman wrote:

blueman3333 writes:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Actually was looking at the wrong manual before.
According to the right manual for my model, the two possibilities a
1. Low gas pressure
2. Faulty gas valve

Does that make sense and sound right relative to the symptoms I have
described?


I suppose anything is possible, but given that the burner starts,
neither seems terribly likely (to me).


Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Bubba writes:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

Why exactly is it that you homemoaners think you need to "engage" the
service tech? All that does is run your bill up while we waste time
chit chatting on your dime. A good tech really doesnt need to hear a
word from you other than, "the heat doesnt work and its down there in
the basement". If he needs any more than that then he isnt much of a
competent tech.

What a waste of response. If you don't want to help, then don't
respond to posts. If you hate engaging with customers, then you
shouldn't be in the SERVICE business.

The good service techs I know really appreciate it when a
knowledgeable homeowner has done his/her homework. At a minimum it
saves some diagnosis time. It also very often saves a return trip back
for parts.

Engage your brain for a second and just think -- if I can diagnose the
problem or at least narrow it down in advance, then the service tech
may be able to actually bring the right replacement part on the first
visit. This save me and the tech time and money.

Also, at least in the world I live in, there are many service people
who are only too happy to swap out parts until they get it right
rather than spending time on diagnostics -- whether this comes from
lack of knowledge, laziness, or greed, I will leave up to you.

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.

If you actually READ my post rather than just frothing, you would see
that I SPECIFICALLY asked whether this was likely to be a DIY fix and
did not claim that I would go off fixing things beyond my level of
expertise.

Is business so bad for you (or is your reputation so poor) that you
need to beat down customers in order to drum up some business? Again,
the good service people that I know are happy to help customers help
themselves because they know that at the end of the day, the best
customer is an informed and satisfied one -- those are the ones that
keep coming back, particularly when they need to spend big bucks on a
new install...

Bubba
Name is pretty much consistent with the intelligence and mentality
expressed in your post.

blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

blueman wrote:

CJT writes:


blueman3333 wrote:



We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.

Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Minutes? I thought you said "a second or two."


It initially burns for maybe 2-3 minutes without interruption. Then it
starts cycling with each subsequent flame lasting typically for 1-2
seconds or often even less (though sometimes I have seen it last as
long as 10 seconds).

Apparently I misunderstood. That doesn't sound like a flame sensor.

I think you'll need somebody familiar with your particular furnace
(and its controls) to sort this out.

Good luck.


It's entirely consistent with "a second or two" multiple times over
a span of minutes.


Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).

I've never seen your particular furnace. It might just be dirty.
Look for a little gadget with a window facing the flame and a couple
of wires coming out of it. Make sure the window isn't sooty and the
wires are still connected to the control board. Judge for yourself
how hard it would be to change it.

Of course, it could also be the associated control board electronics.
Less likely, IMHO, but possible.


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"Dimitrios Paskoudniakis" writes:
"blueman3333" wrote in message
...
We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

I once had similar symptoms (I have since moved).

I had a condensate pump, and it filled with "gunk" over time. I had a
contractor confirm this was the problem. He removed the pump, took it
outside, took a hose to it, reinstalled, and the problem resolved. Don't
actually know what the failure mechanism was, but this resolved it. It
happened again a year later, but I just cleaned the condensate pump again.
When I moved, I left a note for the buyers, and included a description for
them to rinse out the condensate pump about twice a year.

Don't know if this is the same problem as yours, but thought I'd share my
story.

Interesting, do you mean to say that a dirty condensate pump caused
the burner to shut down prematurely and then prevented it form
re-lighting properly? Because if so, I am sure that is the problem
because as mentioned in my subsequent post, I actually just installed
a condesate pump. Not sure how a downstream pump affects upstream
flame but I'm sure that must be it if you say you had the exact same
problem caused by a condensate pump...

writes:
CJT wrote:

Mo Hoaner wrote:

"Bubba" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:


Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba


Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson, electrocution, or
the part about calling someone who doesn't have to guess, actually knows
where the basement is?


You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

Bubba is big enuf to answer for himself, but actually us guys LOVE to
be called in after a homeowner has ****ed things up royally.

go right ahead and buy all the parts you want and install them
yourself. try getting a warranty on those parts, especially after you
**** them up installing them yourself.

Obviously, depends on the skill of the homeowner DUH. I save thousands
every year by DIY and almost never have to call in a repairman for
anything -- certainly, I have never had to call a repair person in to
fix my own mistakes.


see, this particular ho cant get his story straight. first it fires
for a few seconds then dies, then he says it runs for several mins
then dies. which is it?

I think the problem is you can't read straight... I pretty clearly
stated that after cycling the power, it burns for a few minutes the
first time. Then after the flame extinguishes, it enters a cycle where
the flame only burns for 1-2 seconds (or less) before sputtering out.

Please let me know what your business name is so I can be sure NOT to
use you on account of:
1. Your screw-the-consumer attitude
` 2. Your inability to read a clear diagnosis of the problem

Personally I think the best part is the ****ed up design of the York
piece of **** furnace, running the blower 24/7 non stop when the
system goes into fault mode. A real genius at work there.

Actually, even as a "non-pro" ho (as you say), I think it could make
sense. Keeping the blower running probably helps disperse and dilute small
concentrations of dangerous gasses that could accumulate in a fault
condition...

"blueman" wrote in message
...
Bubba writes:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

Why exactly is it that you homemoaners think you need to "engage" the
service tech? All that does is run your bill up while we waste time
chit chatting on your dime. A good tech really doesnt need to hear a
word from you other than, "the heat doesnt work and its down there in
the basement". If he needs any more than that then he isnt much of a
competent tech.

What a waste of response. If you don't want to help, then don't
respond to posts. If you hate engaging with customers, then you
shouldn't be in the SERVICE business.

The good service techs I know really appreciate it when a
knowledgeable homeowner has done his/her homework. At a minimum it
saves some diagnosis time. It also very often saves a return trip back
for parts.

Engage your brain for a second and just think -- if I can diagnose the
problem or at least narrow it down in advance, then the service tech
may be able to actually bring the right replacement part on the first
visit. This save me and the tech time and money.

Also, at least in the world I live in, there are many service people
who are only too happy to swap out parts until they get it right
rather than spending time on diagnostics -- whether this comes from
lack of knowledge, laziness, or greed, I will leave up to you.

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.

If you actually READ my post rather than just frothing, you would see
that I SPECIFICALLY asked whether this was likely to be a DIY fix and
did not claim that I would go off fixing things beyond my level of
expertise.

Is business so bad for you (or is your reputation so poor) that you
need to beat down customers in order to drum up some business? Again,
the good service people that I know are happy to help customers help
themselves because they know that at the end of the day, the best
customer is an informed and satisfied one -- those are the ones that
keep coming back, particularly when they need to spend big bucks on a
new install...

Bubba
Name is pretty much consistent with the intelligence and mentality
expressed in your post.


Keep working on it.

Nice and warm here.

"CJT" wrote in message
...
blueman wrote:


Apparently I misunderstood. That doesn't sound like a flame sensor.

I think you'll need somebody familiar with your particular furnace
(and its controls) to sort this out.

Good luck.

NO ****!

writes:
blueman wrote:


Obviously, depends on the skill of the homeowner DUH. I save thousands
every year by DIY and almost never have to call in a repairman for
anything -- certainly, I have never had to call a repair person in to
fix my own mistakes.


knock yourself out ******.
And I actually enjoy it more than the (relatively) small amount of
money I save.


Please let me know what your business name is so I can be sure NOT to
use you on account of:
1. Your screw-the-consumer attitude
` 2. Your inability to read a clear diagnosis of the problem


I can't think of a legit service comapny who want want YOU as their
customer !!

Really?
Interesting, the demographics of my neighborhood makes them all come
swarming... most of them salivate when they see big expensive houses.

oh wait, I guess there ARE companies who's target market are low-life
scum sucking bottom feeding DIY'ers vermin have to eat too.
Why, do you work for Bubba?

I dare you to tell me the name of the company you own or work for.
I'm sure the owner (assuming it's not you) and/or his customers would
love to see your attitude.

I bet that if you work for a large reputable company (and are not
closely related to the boss), that you don't last a day once you
associate your name with the attitude you express here.

Personally I think the best part is the ****ed up design of the York
piece of **** furnace, running the blower 24/7 non stop when the
system goes into fault mode. A real genius at work there.

Actually, even as a "non-pro" ho (as you say), I think it could make
sense. Keeping the blower running probably helps disperse and dilute small
concentrations of dangerous gasses that could accumulate in a fault
condition...

yeah, thats why the inducer motor is supposed to run non stop. But
just imagine an application where the blower is drawing in 100%
outside air. Now how smart is it? If the ignition controls are in
lockout mode, how long does the blower have to run to dispell
dangerous gases? a couple of years?

btw- I know what the problem is and what you as a homeowner can do to
fix it. it aint the gas valve or the flame sensor. 95% of the problem
is the ****wit trying to fix things himself. The other 5% is a real
problem fixable by even you errr maybe.

Hey, if you are SO certain that I will only mess things up and create
more business for low-lifes like you, then I dare you to tell me what
you "think" the problem is. Then, if I am skilled enough to fix it,
then I win -- if I'm not and just screw it up then you (or your
business comrades) win.

Seems fair to me or are you just trying to scare people away from your
"sacred" turf?

try sharpening your touted electronic skills. moron.

Business must be really bad if you have nothing better to do than to
vent at someone who is just innocently asking for advice. I guess it
must be boring waiting on the unemployment line and collecting food
stamps.

BTW, are you bubba's half-witted twin brother?
Sounds like you two both are swimming at the shallow end of the gene
pool.

It's so pathetic when you see underemployed and underskilled "service"
people so desperately defending their terrain as if they were some
medieval guild. I guess being one step away from a McDonald's cashier
is pretty scarey when the world starts passing you by...

"Oscar_Lives" writes:

"blueman" wrote in message
...
Bubba writes:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

Why exactly is it that you homemoaners think you need to "engage" the
service tech? All that does is run your bill up while we waste time
chit chatting on your dime. A good tech really doesnt need to hear a
word from you other than, "the heat doesnt work and its down there in
the basement". If he needs any more than that then he isnt much of a
competent tech.

What a waste of response. If you don't want to help, then don't
respond to posts. If you hate engaging with customers, then you
shouldn't be in the SERVICE business.

The good service techs I know really appreciate it when a
knowledgeable homeowner has done his/her homework. At a minimum it
saves some diagnosis time. It also very often saves a return trip back
for parts.

Engage your brain for a second and just think -- if I can diagnose the
problem or at least narrow it down in advance, then the service tech
may be able to actually bring the right replacement part on the first
visit. This save me and the tech time and money.

Also, at least in the world I live in, there are many service people
who are only too happy to swap out parts until they get it right
rather than spending time on diagnostics -- whether this comes from
lack of knowledge, laziness, or greed, I will leave up to you.

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.

If you actually READ my post rather than just frothing, you would see
that I SPECIFICALLY asked whether this was likely to be a DIY fix and
did not claim that I would go off fixing things beyond my level of
expertise.

Is business so bad for you (or is your reputation so poor) that you
need to beat down customers in order to drum up some business? Again,
the good service people that I know are happy to help customers help
themselves because they know that at the end of the day, the best
customer is an informed and satisfied one -- those are the ones that
keep coming back, particularly when they need to spend big bucks on a
new install...

Bubba
Name is pretty much consistent with the intelligence and mentality
expressed in your post.


Keep working on it.

Nice and warm here.

Warm here too -- the heater is only for a guest room and we have no
guests this week...

blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

blueman3333 wrote:


We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.


Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).
Hi,
Flame sensor is like a keavy needle which is usually located opposite
side of ignitor. They does not go bad easily, but surface rust make them
sluggish. Use ememry cloth or fine fine snad paper to remove rust.
Most likely it'll work again,

CJT wrote:

blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

blueman wrote:

CJT writes:


blueman3333 wrote:



We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself
several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and
again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation
problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue
flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position,
the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I
believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage
the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!


I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.


Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?


Minutes? I thought you said "a second or two."



It initially burns for maybe 2-3 minutes without interruption. Then it
starts cycling with each subsequent flame lasting typically for 1-2
seconds or often even less (though sometimes I have seen it last as
long as 10 seconds).


Apparently I misunderstood. That doesn't sound like a flame sensor.

I think you'll need somebody familiar with your particular furnace
(and its controls) to sort this out.

Good luck.


It's entirely consistent with "a second or two" multiple times over
a span of minutes.


Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in
gas).


I've never seen your particular furnace. It might just be dirty.
Look for a little gadget with a window facing the flame and a couple
of wires coming out of it. Make sure the window isn't sooty and the
wires are still connected to the control board. Judge for yourself
how hard it would be to change it.

Of course, it could also be the associated control board electronics.
Less likely, IMHO, but possible.


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .



Hi,
Another could be inducer pressure switch?

writes:
blueman wrote:



Interesting, the demographics of my neighborhood makes them all come
swarming... most of them salivate when they see big expensive houses.

no ****? what a pretentious world you live in.

usually the bigger the house, the bigger the asshole living in it.



I bet that if you work for a large reputable company (and are not
closely related to the boss),


money talks, bull**** walks. How much are you willing to lose?




then I dare you to tell me what
you "think" the problem is.


scroll to the very bottom of this post for the answer



Business must be really bad if you have nothing better to do than to
vent at someone who is just innocently asking for advice.


Here is free advice. Call a tech. Hmm didnt like that advice, so you
get ****y.


Here is some advice... learn how to read and mind your manners (at
least if you want to have some customers).

I said I would be happy to call a tech if it was not a DIY
job. Nevertheless, still would like to know the diagnosis in advance
for the following very two reasonable reasons:

1. To save tech time and money by giving them a clue to the
diagnosis in advance so that they can bring the right parts
and zero in on the problem

2. To avoid being "screwed" by people like you who don't seem
to care at all about the customer and are more concerned
about their own bottom line

How about this advice: tell your freezing guests you are a cheap ****
trying to save his last nickel, and they can damn well freeze.

Business is so good, I get to choose what I want to do, and for whom.

.... and I guess by your attitude you choose to have very few (repeat)
customers. But then again, you are probably a coward -- talk tough
anonymously on this newsgroup and then kiss the asses of your
customers in person.

For ******s like you, I get to tell them to call somebody else.


Why do you waste your time (and everyone else's on this newsgroup)?
- Is your ego that low?
- Are you so threatened by a homeowner with a little initiative and
intelligence?

Well enough of my wasting my time reading your pathetic drivel...
So welcome to my kill file and feel free to waste your unemployed free
time talking to nobody while other hard-working techs actually help
people and earn a good living in return...
Ploink

CJT writes:
Mo Hoaner wrote:

"Bubba" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba
Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson,
electrocution, or the part about calling someone who doesn't have to
guess, actually knows where the basement is?
You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.

- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?
- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?
- Are they so down-and-out that anything is better than counting the
minutes until the next unemployment check arrives?

blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

Mo Hoaner wrote:


"Bubba" wrote in message
...


On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:


Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba

Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson,
electrocution, or the part about calling someone who doesn't have to
guess, actually knows where the basement is?

You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .


CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.

- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?
- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?
- Are they so down-and-out that anything is better than counting the
minutes until the next unemployment check arrives?

I can't explain it, but I know it's been going on for a long time.
I was shocked the first time I encountered it. They seem to have
lots of time on their hands for slinging insults, so I assume they're
mostly disgruntled ex-techs.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"blueman" wrote in message
...
"Oscar_Lives" writes:

"blueman" wrote in message
...
Bubba writes:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then
hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself
several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and
again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation
problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue
flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position,
the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I
believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage
the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

Why exactly is it that you homemoaners think you need to "engage" the
service tech? All that does is run your bill up while we waste time
chit chatting on your dime. A good tech really doesnt need to hear a
word from you other than, "the heat doesnt work and its down there in
the basement". If he needs any more than that then he isnt much of a
competent tech.

What a waste of response. If you don't want to help, then don't
respond to posts. If you hate engaging with customers, then you
shouldn't be in the SERVICE business.

The good service techs I know really appreciate it when a
knowledgeable homeowner has done his/her homework. At a minimum it
saves some diagnosis time. It also very often saves a return trip back
for parts.

Engage your brain for a second and just think -- if I can diagnose the
problem or at least narrow it down in advance, then the service tech
may be able to actually bring the right replacement part on the first
visit. This save me and the tech time and money.

Also, at least in the world I live in, there are many service people
who are only too happy to swap out parts until they get it right
rather than spending time on diagnostics -- whether this comes from
lack of knowledge, laziness, or greed, I will leave up to you.

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.

If you actually READ my post rather than just frothing, you would see
that I SPECIFICALLY asked whether this was likely to be a DIY fix and
did not claim that I would go off fixing things beyond my level of
expertise.

Is business so bad for you (or is your reputation so poor) that you
need to beat down customers in order to drum up some business? Again,
the good service people that I know are happy to help customers help
themselves because they know that at the end of the day, the best
customer is an informed and satisfied one -- those are the ones that
keep coming back, particularly when they need to spend big bucks on a
new install...

Bubba
Name is pretty much consistent with the intelligence and mentality
expressed in your post.


Keep working on it.

Nice and warm here.

Warm here too -- the heater is only for a guest room and we have no
guests this week...

I can see why you don't have any guests. They probably know that you do
your own furnace work and they don't want to die from carbon monoxide
poisoning or from a fireball explosion...

"CJT" wrote in message
...
blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

Mo Hoaner wrote:


"Bubba" wrote in message
m...


On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:


Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba

Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson,
electrocution, or the part about calling someone who doesn't have to
guess, actually knows where the basement is?

You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .


CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.

- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?
- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?
- Are they so down-and-out that anything is better than counting the
minutes until the next unemployment check arrives?

I can't explain it, but I know it's been going on for a long time.
I was shocked the first time I encountered it. They seem to have
lots of time on their hands for slinging insults, so I assume they're
mostly disgruntled ex-techs.

Actually you got it totaly wrong... most of us are master HVAC techs, or
other certified professionals, and owners with a touch of burn-out from
working from can to can't every day. Cheap *******s like you get ****y when
you call on Sunday afternoon to come fix you broken furnace that has been
down for 2 weeks, then get ****ed because you have to pay overtime. Most of
us have our first 40 hours for that week in by Wednesday evening. Our
regular customers know enough to call when they have a problem with their
system, because they know it will be fixed right the first time. You and a
lot of others come in here expecting to have us tell you whats wrong with
your heating and cooling system(s), sight unseen, then step by step how to
fix them. In case you haven't figured it out yet, there are places in the
country where it's ILLEGAL for anybody but a licensed tech to mess with your
system. There is a reason for this....it usually has to do with somebody
that didn't have a clue screwing with their furnace with the resultant loss
of life, limb, and/or property.
Sure you *might* save a buck or 2 by DIY, but with the new equipment, and
controls, if you don't have the training, its highly likely that you can
cause terminal damage to the whole system. With an average cost of over
$8,000 to do a simple system replacement, thats going to be a real expensive
lesson.

That being said, its your life, and your money...you can do what you want.

"Oscar_Lives" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
"Oscar_Lives" writes:

"blueman" wrote in message
...
Bubba writes:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:

We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.

There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor.

I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot, then
hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself
several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat

Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and
again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.

Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.

Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation
problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue
flame
before suddenly sputtering out.

When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position,
the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I
believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem

Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?

Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage
the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken

Thanks!

Why exactly is it that you homemoaners think you need to "engage" the
service tech? All that does is run your bill up while we waste time
chit chatting on your dime. A good tech really doesnt need to hear a
word from you other than, "the heat doesnt work and its down there in
the basement". If he needs any more than that then he isnt much of a
competent tech.

What a waste of response. If you don't want to help, then don't
respond to posts. If you hate engaging with customers, then you
shouldn't be in the SERVICE business.

The good service techs I know really appreciate it when a
knowledgeable homeowner has done his/her homework. At a minimum it
saves some diagnosis time. It also very often saves a return trip back
for parts.

Engage your brain for a second and just think -- if I can diagnose the
problem or at least narrow it down in advance, then the service tech
may be able to actually bring the right replacement part on the first
visit. This save me and the tech time and money.

Also, at least in the world I live in, there are many service people
who are only too happy to swap out parts until they get it right
rather than spending time on diagnostics -- whether this comes from
lack of knowledge, laziness, or greed, I will leave up to you.

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.

If you actually READ my post rather than just frothing, you would see
that I SPECIFICALLY asked whether this was likely to be a DIY fix and
did not claim that I would go off fixing things beyond my level of
expertise.

Is business so bad for you (or is your reputation so poor) that you
need to beat down customers in order to drum up some business? Again,
the good service people that I know are happy to help customers help
themselves because they know that at the end of the day, the best
customer is an informed and satisfied one -- those are the ones that
keep coming back, particularly when they need to spend big bucks on a
new install...

Bubba
Name is pretty much consistent with the intelligence and mentality
expressed in your post.


Keep working on it.

Nice and warm here.

Warm here too -- the heater is only for a guest room and we have no
guests this week...

I can see why you don't have any guests. They probably know that you do
your own furnace work and they don't want to die from carbon monoxide
poisoning or from a fireball explosion...

Another "brilliant" ad-hominem comment from another underemployed,
disgruntled tech...
If you have nothing constructive to say, then stop wasting
bandwidth...
Get yourself a life!
ploink!

"Noon-Air" writes:
"CJT" wrote in message
...
blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

Mo Hoaner wrote:


"Bubba" wrote in message
m...


On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:


Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba

Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson,
electrocution, or the part about calling someone who doesn't have to
guess, actually knows where the basement is?

You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .


CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.

- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?
- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?
- Are they so down-and-out that anything is better than counting the
minutes until the next unemployment check arrives?

I can't explain it, but I know it's been going on for a long time.
I was shocked the first time I encountered it. They seem to have
lots of time on their hands for slinging insults, so I assume they're
mostly disgruntled ex-techs.

Actually you got it totaly wrong... most of us are master HVAC techs, or
other certified professionals, and owners with a touch of burn-out from
working from can to can't every day. Cheap *******s like you get ****y when
you call on Sunday afternoon to come fix you broken furnace that has been
down for 2 weeks, then get ****ed because you have to pay overtime. Most of
us have our first 40 hours for that week in by Wednesday evening. Our
regular customers know enough to call when they have a problem with their
system, because they know it will be fixed right the first time. You and a
lot of others come in here expecting to have us tell you whats wrong with
your heating and cooling system(s), sight unseen, then step by step how to
fix them. In case you haven't figured it out yet, there are places in the
country where it's ILLEGAL for anybody but a licensed tech to mess with your
system. There is a reason for this....it usually has to do with somebody
that didn't have a clue screwing with their furnace with the resultant loss
of life, limb, and/or property.
Sure you *might* save a buck or 2 by DIY, but with the new equipment, and
controls, if you don't have the training, its highly likely that you can
cause terminal damage to the whole system. With an average cost of over
$8,000 to do a simple system replacement, thats going to be a real expensive
lesson.

That being said, its your life, and your money...you can do what you want.

Interesting how peope from other professions don't seem to have the
same arrogance and selfishness. It's also "ILLEGAL" in many places to
do your own electrical, plumbing, etc. and the ability to cause damage
is at least as high but you don't see those practitioners acting like
a bunch of babies.

Anyone who asks a question is somehow a "cheap *******". Amazing that
even though I specifically said that if it wasn't a DIY fix, I would
be happy to call in a tech.

Another disgruntled prick to add to the kill file...
"Global warming" and the warm winter here in the U.S. must mean that
they all have too much time and too little money on their hands...

ploink

Noon-Air wrote:

"CJT" wrote in message
...

blueman wrote:


CJT writes:


Mo Hoaner wrote:



"Bubba" wrote in message
om...



On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:19:47 GMT, blueman3333
wrote:


Snip

If you want to fix it yourself, pull all the parts off the working
furnace and start putting them on the inoperative furnace one by one
till you get it. Whats the worst that can happen?
Your burn yourself, you asphyxiate yourself or your family, you burn
your house down or you electrocute yourself.
and maybe, just maybe, you might get it right.
Bubba

Get which part right? The burning, asphyxiation, arson,
electrocution, or the part about calling someone who doesn't have to
guess, actually knows where the basement is?

You guys just hate it when a service call is avoided, don't you.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .


CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.

- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?
- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?
- Are they so down-and-out that anything is better than counting the
minutes until the next unemployment check arrives?

I can't explain it, but I know it's been going on for a long time.
I was shocked the first time I encountered it. They seem to have
lots of time on their hands for slinging insults, so I assume they're
mostly disgruntled ex-techs.


Actually you got it totaly wrong... most of us are master HVAC techs, or
other certified professionals, and owners with a touch of burn-out from
working from can to can't every day. Cheap *******s like you get ****y when
you call on Sunday afternoon to come fix you broken furnace that has been
down for 2 weeks, then get ****ed because you have to pay overtime. Most of
us have our first 40 hours for that week in by Wednesday evening. Our
regular customers know enough to call when they have a problem with their
system, because they know it will be fixed right the first time. You and a
lot of others come in here expecting to have us tell you whats wrong with
your heating and cooling system(s), sight unseen, then step by step how to
fix them. In case you haven't figured it out yet, there are places in the
country where it's ILLEGAL for anybody but a licensed tech to mess with your
system. There is a reason for this....it usually has to do with somebody
that didn't have a clue screwing with their furnace with the resultant loss
of life, limb, and/or property.
Sure you *might* save a buck or 2 by DIY, but with the new equipment, and
controls, if you don't have the training, its highly likely that you can
cause terminal damage to the whole system. With an average cost of over
$8,000 to do a simple system replacement, thats going to be a real expensive
lesson.

That being said, its your life, and your money...you can do what you want.


Yeah, right ...

You're so busy you have hours to spend sitting here insulting others.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:33:27 GMT, CJT wrote:



CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.

What you don't 'get' is that we are not here to provide free
help for home-moaners. Get over it.


- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?

Why do you think we owe you any explanation ? Where do you
get off assuming that YOU set 'the standards and the reasons' for US
to post ? Who the **** are you ?

- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?

Do you truly think you are 'a potential customer' for anyone
here ? Do you truly think that the home-moaners looking for free
advice are 'potential customers' ? DO you really view the asshole DIY
HM from Ohio as a 'potential customer' for the master tech in
California who only does commercial work ?


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:33:27 GMT, CJT wrote:



CJT - thanks for the positive and constructive comments.
I really don't get some of the guys on alt.hvac. Not only do they have
nothing productive to add, but they immediately go into "asshole" mode.


What you don't 'get' is that we are not here to provide free
help for home-moaners. Get over it.


- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?


Why do you think we owe you any explanation ? Where do you
get off assuming that YOU set 'the standards and the reasons' for US
to post ? Who the **** are you ?


- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?


Do you truly think you are 'a potential customer' for anyone
here ? Do you truly think that the home-moaners looking for free
advice are 'potential customers' ? DO you really view the asshole DIY
HM from Ohio as a 'potential customer' for the master tech in
California who only does commercial work ?


Judging by what I've seen here, it's high time to mandate annual
recertification of HVAC "professionals."

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:27:44 -0600, CJT wrote:

wrote:


- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?


Do you truly think you are 'a potential customer' for anyone
here ? Do you truly think that the home-moaners looking for free
advice are 'potential customers' ? DO you really view the asshole DIY
HM from Ohio as a 'potential customer' for the master tech in
California who only does commercial work ?


Judging by what I've seen here, it's high time to mandate annual
recertification of HVAC "professionals."

You're not competent to judge any such thing.

And your evasion of my question is obvious.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Bubba
writes:
Why exactly is it that you homemoaners think you need to "engage" the
service tech? All that does is run your bill up while we waste time
chit chatting on your dime. A good tech really doesnt need to hear a
word from you other than, "the heat doesnt work and its down there in
the basement". If he needs any more than that then he isnt much of a
competent tech.

I've been having the same problem with my heater for the past couple of
months. First tech that came asked me what it's doing. Of course while
he was here it worked perfectly, so he said he couldn't fix it until he
knew what the problem was. Paid him for the service call, but when it
happened again yesterday, I called a different company. Both companies
have been in business in my town for a very long time. Second tech came
and asked what it was doing. Same exact thing, it worked while he was
here, though it hadn't worked for the previous 24 hours. He told me the
same thing as the first tech, but I said no...I want it fixed. I don't
want to keep calling you guys out, pay the service charge, and it's
still a crap shoot as to whether the heater will work. He said he would
order a retrofit kit for $397.00, and charge me the $80.00 service
charge that it would have been yesterday at the time he does that
service. OK, fine, but why didn't either one of them suggest that in the
first place? Do they really think that I want to keep paying a service
charges with no resolution? So techs do ask homeowners questions before
they start, and sometimes they don't make the right suggestions either.

Cheri

I just went through exactly the same thing with an Amana furnace here.
It was the flame sensor and cleaning it with emory paper did the trick.
It would go into lock out and then the fan would remain on until I
reset the system.


Tony Hwang wrote:
blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

blueman3333 wrote:


We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.


Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).
Hi,
Flame sensor is like a keavy needle which is usually located opposite
side of ignitor. They does not go bad easily, but surface rust make them
sluggish. Use ememry cloth or fine fine snad paper to remove rust.
Most likely it'll work again,

blueman wrote in message ...

- If they don't want to help, why do they waste their time responding?
- Are their egos so low and are they so threatened by an occasional
DIY that they have to go into "attack" mode?
- Do they truly believe that their attitude will win them loyal
customers?
- Are they so down-and-out that anything is better than counting the
minutes until the next unemployment check arrives?

Hey, they're everywhere IRL. If they act that way IRL, they're not going
to change personalities in newsgroups. Just be glad you're not driving
next to them on the freeway, and are just dealing with them in a
newsgroup. :-)

Cheri

I just went through exactly the same thing with an Amana furnace here.
It was the flame sensor and cleaning it with emory paper did the trick.
It would go into lock out and then the fan would remain on until I
reset the system.


Tony Hwang wrote:
blueman wrote:

CJT writes:

blueman3333 wrote:


We have a "York Diamond 90" gas-fired furnace that was working well
until today.
There seems to be something wrong with the gas flow/valve, burner, or
sensor. I can see the electronic ignition element turning white hot,
then hear
the gas valve click on, then see the blue gas flames light for a
second or two before sputtering out. This cycle repeats itself several
times until, the system "gives up" (or I guess locks out) at which
point the blower just continues to blow cold air forever and no
further ignition attempts are made. The blower continues to blow even
if I shut off the thermostat
Interestingly, if I cycle off the power (even just for a second or
two), the furnace will start up normally and ignite the burners
properly. The burner will continue to fire for a *couple of minutes*
before blowing out at which point it goes into the (failed) cycle of
trying to relight a couple of times before finally giving up and again
leaving me in the stuck state with the blower blowing cold air.
Sometimes in the cycle of trying to re-light it will burn for a
few seconds before sputtering out. Also, sometimes, I hear the valve
clicking on-and-off a couple of times in rapid succession.
Now the other two gas furnaces are working properly, so I don't think
it is a supply problem. Also, I don't think it is a ventillation problem
because it seems to burn fine for a few minutes with a nice blue flame
before suddenly sputtering out.
When I opened up the bottem panel (overriding the disable switch), I
noticed that after it locked up in the continuous blower position, the
diagnostic LED exhibited a pattern of 8 short (red) flashes -- I believe
this simply indicates that the flame is lost 5 times within a heating
cycle which according to the online manual indicates either:
Low gas pressure (unlikely since other two gas
furnaces in the house work fine, right?)
Faulty gas valve
Dirty or faulty flame sensor
Faulty hot surface igniter (unlikely because the flame does
ignite, right?)
Burner problem
Any idea what might be wrong and how to fix?
Even if this is not a DIY fix, I would like to have some idea of what
the potential problems could be so that I can intelligently engage the
service person and make sure that I am not being taken
Thanks!

I believe there may be a flame sensor. Its failure could cause the
symptoms you describe.


Would this be consistent with the fact that initially the flame burns
for a couple of minutes before shutting off?

Also, if it is a flame sensor, how difficult/advisable is it as a DIY
repair? (I am very experienced in electrical, electronics & mechanical,
reasonably experienced in plumbing, but have minimal experience in gas).
Hi,
Flame sensor is like a keavy needle which is usually located opposite
side of ignitor. They does not go bad easily, but surface rust make them
sluggish. Use ememry cloth or fine fine snad paper to remove rust.
Most likely it'll work again,