In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Mike

Plumbing solder was 50% lead 50% tin
I wouldn't repalce anything that wasn't broken, but as you make repairs
use the new lead free solder, it's a bit different but it works.

On 14 Apr 2006 06:32:41 -0700, wrote (with
possible editing):

In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?

Yes.

2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?

Not certain if there is a simple test.

3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't bother for two reasons:

1. The likelihood of significant exposure to lead is tiny.
Lead was used in solder for years and it didn't appear to have any
significant effect on life span.

2. The exposure to lead via plumbing is tiny - it can be only
at the joints and if those were done by a professional, there is damn
little lead in contact with the water.

--

Larry



Mike

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)


You can send a vial of water out for testing, or use a testing kit with a
Q-tip rubbed on the solder.

But, rather than changing all your pipes, you can just install a water
filter in your kitchen which will trap up to 99% of it Just running your
tap for 2 minutes in the morning will clear out any lead that leached
overnight, too.

I grew up in a house with lead solder. Just think, I'd probably be a genius
right now were it not for the lead that I consumed

http://www.omnifilter.com/

Thanks guys.

Mike

wrote in message

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?

Yes, usually 50% lead solder. Good stuff.

2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?

Sure, but why bother. l It has lead.

3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Of course not. My last house had a lead pipe as the main water line from
the street. Tens of thousands of houses built in the 1940's had lead pipes.
We all survived. If you are paranoid about it, it is the water sitting for
a time over lead that potentially contaminates it. Flush a toilet or two
and the water sitting in the pipes overnight is gone and you have good water
again.

wrote:

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Mike

My house built in 1983 had lead in the plumbing, subjecting us to being
a bunch of "lab rats " for the local water district and health
department.

Very very well-versed in the subject. Essentially, what most everyone
has told you is true.

You test the water, not the solder. You test first "flush" -- meaning
the first dribbles of water out of the pipe and then let it run (forget
how long) and collect a second sample.

Over time, if you have hard water, the deposits USUALLY seal off the
lead and very little, if any, escapes into the actual water. Soft
water, well another story. If I remember correctly, hot water taps pose
more of a problem.

Finally, another poster was close, but, sort of deadly wrong when they
said flush a couple of toilets....Basically let the water run out of
any pipe -- the protocol says up to 10 minutes -- that you are going
to consume water from. Flushing a toilet is not going to drain the
water that has been sitting in that cold water line...

Hey, how about this, take a look at what the experts say :)

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/ho...bs/fcs395.html

wrote in message
oups.com...
In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

1- Almost all homes with copper pipes used solder containing a 50/50 mix of
tin and lead that have been built up to the last few years.

2- why worry about the solder blobs. YOu can be sure they are the lead type
the same as the other joints in your house.

3- replace all the pipes in the house. Go with the plastic pipes . Then
someone will decide something will come out of the plastic and you will
have to replace those pipes.

If the lead in the pipes had been very bad for us, most anyone that lived in
a house built in the last 50 years would have been affected. I doubt that
anyone can prove the lead has caused any problems.

Too many people worry about too many small things. They do not seem to
worry about the 40,000 or so killed in the US by cars each year.

If you do replace the valve use some of the BAD old 50/50 mix and not the
newer no stick junk.

I largely agree with most of the previous, with one caveat- lead is a
serious matter. The EPA considers it the no. 1 environmental health
threat. Especially, of course, in the case of pregnant women/ young
children. It is cumulative, causes mental deficits in very small
amounts, organ problems in larger amounts. That said, you are probably
fine with the advice given, but go ahead and have water tested if you
like. In many older cities, there really is a problem- with lead pipe
being the connection from street to house. Not everyone knows to
filter/ or simply flush out line in AM- which can take several
minutes(in the case above, less if just flushing out lead-soldered
domestic copper pipes). Depending on your plumbing setup, you can use
the water to fill your washer, if you don't want to waste it. You'd
still have run some out the kitchen faucet, of course. Lead levels can
be much higher in hot water- I'd say don't use it for cooking or
drinking.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

wrote in message

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?

Yes, usually 50% lead solder. Good stuff.

.... snip, snip
...
..... response
a time over lead that potentially contaminates it. Flush a toilet or two
and the water sitting in the pipes overnight is gone and you have good water
again.

My thought here is to just run enough water so that the pipe between
the faucet and the water supply entrance to the house is emptied out.
In my kitchen, I figure this to be about 2 quarts. At least the way
my house is plumbed, and I suspect others as well, I would think that
flushing the toilet would not help bring a fresh water supply to my
kitchen faucet.
Now, there is one other issue: As a plumber friend of mine once
suggested, in some places the old city supply lines expose the
water supply to your house to lead, in which case my perhaps
superstitious practice of running out 2 qt. of water in the morning
wouldn't much matter :-}

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
Mike Lacy, Ft Collins CO 80523
Clean out the 'junk' to email me.

Yes, thanks Sev.

I appreciate everyone's input on this, but the "hey, I didn't die
because of it" argument is bad. Lots of things that may not affect
your lifespan at all can seriously affect your brain, muscles, nerves,
reproduction, etc.

So we should go with what we know. I am going to test my water as was
suggested (which is a good idea whether I have leaded solder or not)
and if the lead level is considered safe then I'll have no worries.

Thanks everyone.

Mike

I am almost eighty; and, we grew up with lead paint on our cribs,
Had asbestos covering strapped on all the steam pipes in the basement,
played with mercury on pennies in chemistry class and somehow survived all
these perils.

Don't "sweat" out the pipes ( pun intended !).
wrote in message
oups.com...
In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Mike

wrote:
In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?

Yes.

2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?

Don't bother see below.

3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house?

Absolutely not. Doing so is likely to cause more problems than it
fixes. The lead in the pipes is likely adding only extremely little.
Disturbing it and maybe exposing fresh lead would allow more lead into your
water.

If you are worried, have your water tested. Remember to let the water
run some before catching it. Likely the faucets have lead parts in them
and they will likely be greater sources of lead than the pipes.

(Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Mike

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Yes. In 1953 50% lead, 50% tin was the typical solder. I wouldn't
panic though. The concern is how much, if any lead is in the water you
draw from your system today and in the future.

Testing the water is the only way to know this and it's not difficult to
do. Most good hardware stores, and many internet sites have test kits
that can be sent off to a lab for quantification. My preference would
be to find a lab that can do AA (atomic absorption spectroscopy).

There are several things to consider though. Over time insoluble salts
of lead will in all likelihood form over the lead containing solder that
serve to passivate the solder and render it inaccessible. Certainly in
53 years this has occurred.

Unless you have acid water, (low pH, or pH values much less than 7) it
is unlikely that much lead is going to dissolve and be in your water.

Remember the chemist's mantra, 'the dose is the poison', or more correctly:

"All things are poison and nothing is without poison. Solely the dose
determines that a thing is without poison."
--Paracelsus

In our politically correct world many are running from things that are
in fact not that dangerous. The problem is that those running don't
understand what the real danger is and what they are running from.

Boden


Lead, in water will form a
wrote:
In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Mike

wrote:
In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?
2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?
3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Mike

1 Yes
2 Yes
3 No. There is no reason to, especially after 50
years. BTW, there never was a reason, just don't
use water through the hot water system to cook.

On 14-Apr-2006, wrote:

the "hey, I didn't die
because of it" argument is bad. Lots of things that may not affect
your lifespan at all can seriously affect your brain, muscles, nerves,
reproduction, etc.

The first couple of decades of my life I spent living in an environment that had
lead in the water pipes, mercury in the antibiotics, asbestos in almost everything
(I lived in Quebec where asbestos was a major export) etc, etc.

Now kids are raised in clean houses protected from diseases, toxins, heavy
metals etc. These same kids are suffering from epidemic levels of asthma,
autism, allergies etc.

Mike

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:23:00 +0000, Michael Daly wrote:


On 14-Apr-2006, wrote:

the "hey, I didn't die
because of it" argument is bad. Lots of things that may not affect
your lifespan at all can seriously affect your brain, muscles, nerves,
reproduction, etc.

The first couple of decades of my life I spent living in an environment that had
lead in the water pipes,

Oh, *NO*! You must be demented! Yes, so did I for more than a couple of
decades.

mercury in the antibiotics,

Still there, though now they're blaming mercury and antibiotics for autism
and whatever ails the masses think they have.

asbestos in almost everything

....even the gound! *horrors!*

(I lived in Quebec where asbestos was a major export) etc, etc.

Northern NY too, until they closed all the mines and turned it into a
wasteland.

Now kids are raised in clean houses protected from diseases, toxins,
heavy metals etc. These same kids are suffering from epidemic levels of
asthma, autism, allergies etc.

Go figure. What happens when a spider bites one of the wussies?

--
Keith

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:01:01 +0000, Joseph Meehan wrote:

If you are worried, have your water tested.

Yes, and if it's not acidic, sleep well. If it's acidic bitch to your
water supplier. If it's your well, fix it.

--
Keith

"Keith" wrote in message
news

Still there, though now they're blaming mercury and antibiotics for autism
and whatever ails the masses think they have.

Not quite. Mercury, in thiomerisol, is a preservative in vaccines (or it
used to be) and the autism rate increased considerably since it was used.
There have not been scientific test, but anecdotal evidence points to it as
one in 162 children is autistic to some extent. China had virtually no
autism until they started using US made vaccines with it.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 03:11:22 +0000, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
news

Still there, though now they're blaming mercury and antibiotics for autism
and whatever ails the masses think they have.

Not quite. Mercury, in thiomerisol, is a preservative in vaccines (or it
used to be) and the autism rate increased considerably since it was used.
There have not been scientific test, but anecdotal evidence points to it as
one in 162 children is autistic to some extent. China had virtually no
autism until they started using US made vaccines with it.

Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.

--
Keith

"Keith" wrote in message
Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.

As I stated, there is not scientific proof and studies have not been done.
It may or may not be, but you don't offer a solution either. As the
thiomerisol is eliminated, it may show causation. We'll see.

The problem with lead is solder joints is that the EPA changed disinfectant
chemicals for city utilities a few years ago and the new chemical is more
corrosive and now people are drinking plenty of lead in their old pipes.


"L. M. Rappaport" wrote in message
news
On 14 Apr 2006 06:32:41 -0700, wrote (with
possible editing):

In removing a gate value for the hose in my garage this morning I had
to heat one of the copper joints to remove it and I noticed how easily
the solder melted and flowed. So I wonder if there is some amount of
lead in it.

My house was built in 1953 and my guess is that this pipe joint is
original, so...

1) Did plumbing solder in 1953 contain lead?

Yes.

2) Can I test some of the solder blobs easily?

Not certain if there is a simple test.

3) Should I consider replacing all of the pipes in my house? (Note: I
have a small ranch house with easy access to all of the plumbing; this
would not be a difficult job for me.)

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't bother for two reasons:

1. The likelihood of significant exposure to lead is tiny.
Lead was used in solder for years and it didn't appear to have any
significant effect on life span.

2. The exposure to lead via plumbing is tiny - it can be only
at the joints and if those were done by a professional, there is damn
little lead in contact with the water.

--

Larry



Mike

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:36:20 +0000, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.

As I stated, there is not scientific proof and studies have not been done.

So why bring it up? No proof is no proof.

It may or may not be, but you don't offer a solution either.

I offered one alternative explanation (unfortunately, solutions are not
always possible). The "solution" is *not* to stop vaccination. The
"solution" may be the "media" getting a clue about science, but that won't
happen because scares sell ink. They've obviously scared you since you
bought the line right down to the hook.

As the thiomerisol is eliminated, it may show causation. We'll see.

Likely the claimed "causation" will be the rates of autism to increase
in China. ;-/

--
Keith

"Keith" wrote in message

So why bring it up? No proof is no proof.

Because a previous post was in error. I corrected the perception about
anti-biotics.



always possible). The "solution" is *not* to stop vaccination. The
"solution" may be the "media" getting a clue about science, but that won't
happen because scares sell ink. They've obviously scared you since you
bought the line right down to the hook.

The possible solution is to stop using a mercury based preservative if there
are other methods that work as well. Unless you try something, you just
don't know. I didn't buy anything, but I'm open minded and think it is
sensible to try alternatives to mercury since they do exist. Injecting
mercury into a baby just does not make sense to me. That does not mean
eliminating vaccination at all.

On 14 Apr 2006 09:03:57 -0700, wrote:


My thought here is to just run enough water so that the pipe between
the faucet and the water supply entrance to the house is emptied out.
In my kitchen, I figure this to be about 2 quarts. At least the way
my house is plumbed, and I suspect others as well, I would think that
flushing the toilet would not help bring a fresh water supply to my
kitchen faucet.
Now, there is one other issue: As a plumber friend of mine once
suggested, in some places the old city supply lines expose the
water supply to your house to lead, in which case my perhaps
superstitious practice

I wouldn't call it superstitious. There is a valid basis for it.

And your disagreement doesn't seem well based either.

Even if the city pipes contain lead, the water in them is rushing by
because of the other people using water, even when we are sleeping.
Someone is up earlier than we are, or going to bed much later than we
do, and is showering or washing something.

of running out 2 qt. of water in the morning
wouldn't much matter :-}

It's only the water to our own house and in our own house that gets no
use at all when we are asleep. That's what sits there, in some cases
picking up lead.

On 14 Apr 2006 07:49:37 -0700, wrote:


Finally, another poster was close, but, sort of deadly wrong when they
said flush a couple of toilets....Basically let the water run out of
any pipe -- the protocol says up to 10 minutes -- that you are going
to consume water from. Flushing a toilet is not going to drain the
water that has been sitting in that cold water line...

I figured the toilet thing was dependant on how the house is built.

Many people go to the toilet first thing in the morning and flush
anyhow. Sometimes 2, 3, 4 people get up at the same time.

My bathroom sink is fed from the same pipe and only has 6 feet that
are different.

My kitchen sink is fed from teh same pipe as the two upstairs toilets,
and only has about 3 feet that are diffferent.

So if the toilet flushing is enough to put new water in the house
pipes, I'd only have to run the kitchen sink for 3 feet worth to have
fresh water there.

Hey, how about this, take a look at what the experts say :)

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/ho...bs/fcs395.html

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:14:38 GMT, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


If the lead in the pipes had been very bad for us, most anyone that lived in
a house built in the last 50 years would have been affected. I doubt that
anyone can prove the lead has caused any problems.

Too many people worry about too many small things. They do not seem to
worry about the 40,000 or so killed in the US by cars each year.

Hah. I've removed the lead from my car.

The biggest problem with lead in the water from lead pipes. I must
admit I don't know what has been said about solder with lead, but it's
a lot less than lead pipes.

I guess we had lead paint when I grew up, but the house was new enough
that nothing was chipping. I gather some babies chew on the window
sills, even when the paint isn't chipping, but if I tried, I think my
mother woudl have stopped me whether anything was known about lead or
not. I guess I can't remember back that far.

If you do replace the valve use some of the BAD old 50/50 mix and not the
newer no stick junk.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 03:11:22 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
news

Still there, though now they're blaming mercury and antibiotics for autism
and whatever ails the masses think they have.

Not quite. Mercury, in thiomerisol, is a preservative in vaccines (or it
used to be) and the autism rate increased considerably since it was used.
There have not been scientific test, but anecdotal evidence points to it as
one in 162 children is autistic to some extent. China had virtually no
autism until they started using US made vaccines with it.

They were just talking about this on NR or CSpan. Thiomerisol is now
out of all the antibiotics except one. I missed which one.

But though they took it out, I think your right that it was never
proven to be the cause of autism.

I dopn't have a strong opionion either way, and I haven't heard about
China When did they start using the vaccines (there have been a lot
of changes in China.)

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:21:38 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


The possible solution is to stop using a mercury based preservative if there
are other methods that work as well. Unless you try something, you just
don't know. I didn't buy anything, but I'm open minded and think it is
sensible to try alternatives to mercury since they do exist. Injecting
mercury into a baby just does not make sense to me. That does not mean
eliminating vaccination at all.

This week or something is the 50th anniversary of the Saulk polio
vaccine.

Another story (or the same one?) someone reminisced about how a some
pulbic school no one objected to thier kid getting the polico vaccine,
compared to today.

I don't rememver if my mother objected at the time or not**, but 30
years later she expressed qualms, and 10 years after that I found out
why. There had been a bad batch of polio vaccine, out of 10's of
thousands of batches needed for the whole country) and a several,
quite a few, or somenumber ofof kids out of that batch got polio from
the vaccination.

**I know I got the shots pretty early.

Not parralel but little known and sort of relevant.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Keith" wrote in message

Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.


As I stated, there is not scientific proof and studies have not been done.
It may or may not be, but you don't offer a solution either. As the
thiomerisol is eliminated, it may show causation. We'll see.


Perhaps the real guestion is why anyone would
choose to put a mercury compound in any injectable
substance?

mm wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:21:38 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


The possible solution is to stop using a mercury based preservative if there
are other methods that work as well. Unless you try something, you just
don't know. I didn't buy anything, but I'm open minded and think it is
sensible to try alternatives to mercury since they do exist. Injecting
mercury into a baby just does not make sense to me. That does not mean
eliminating vaccination at all.


This week or something is the 50th anniversary of the Saulk polio
vaccine.

Another story (or the same one?) someone reminisced about how a some
pulbic school no one objected to thier kid getting the polico vaccine,
compared to today.

I don't rememver if my mother objected at the time or not**, but 30
years later she expressed qualms, and 10 years after that I found out
why. There had been a bad batch of polio vaccine, out of 10's of
thousands of batches needed for the whole country) and a several,
quite a few, or somenumber ofof kids out of that batch got polio from
the vaccination.

**I know I got the shots pretty early.

Not parralel but little known and sort of relevant.

Lots of people objected to the polio vaccine. And
that bad batch was from a single lab and ended up
in Idaho (where I live) where a lot of kids got
polio from the shots.

More important was the controversy between the
Saulk vaccine (based on dead virus) and the Sabin
vaccine which was an attenuated but live
vaccine. The latter was effective with kids and
spreading immunization but it killed a lot of the
older relatives of the kids vaccinated.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:26:59 +0000, George E. Cawthon wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Keith" wrote in message

Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.


As I stated, there is not scientific proof and studies have not been done.
It may or may not be, but you don't offer a solution either. As the
thiomerisol is eliminated, it may show causation. We'll see.


Perhaps the real guestion is why anyone would
choose to put a mercury compound in any injectable
substance?

Because it works and has no demonstrable side effects? Geez!

--
Keith

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:59:05 -0400, mm wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 03:11:22 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Keith" wrote in message
news

Still there, though now they're blaming mercury and antibiotics for autism
and whatever ails the masses think they have.

Not quite. Mercury, in thiomerisol, is a preservative in vaccines (or it
used to be) and the autism rate increased considerably since it was used.
There have not been scientific test, but anecdotal evidence points to it as
one in 162 children is autistic to some extent. China had virtually no
autism until they started using US made vaccines with it.

They were just talking about this on NR or CSpan. Thiomerisol is now
out of all the antibiotics except one. I missed which one.

But though they took it out, I think your right that it was never
proven to be the cause of autism.

I dopn't have a strong opionion either way, and I haven't heard about
China When did they start using the vaccines (there have been a lot
of changes in China.)

Tehre is nothing about China (other than they _report_ fewer cases of
autism than the US). It was thrown in as a red herring.

--
Keith

To say "There have not been scientific test..." about anything related
to mercury and autisim is about the biggest understatement I have seen
this week. The supposed connection betweeen mercury and autism has been
studied extensively, both in the US and around the world.

It is telling when someone tosses out one of these anecdotal tidbits as
if it means something, when there has been a debate that going on for
years, decades of research, and millions of dollars sunk into both
small and large studies. Oh, but your little anecdote hasn't been
studied you say, so I guess that just wipes the whole slate clean and
we can just forget all the studies and start the discussion fresh
again.

-Kevin

Statements like yours would only be helpful if we figure out how many
posts there are saying:

I would be almost eighty if I weren't dead; we grew up with lead paint
on our cribs,
Had asbestos covering strapped on all the steam pipes in the basement,
played with mercury on pennies in chemistry class and didn't survive
all
these perils.

Keith wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:26:59 +0000, George E. Cawthon wrote:


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Keith" wrote in message


Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.


As I stated, there is not scientific proof and studies have not been done.
It may or may not be, but you don't offer a solution either. As the
thiomerisol is eliminated, it may show causation. We'll see.



Perhaps the real guestion is why anyone would
choose to put a mercury compound in any injectable
substance?


Because it works and has no demonstrable side effects? Geez!

Geez yourself, it is not clear that there are no
adverse effects. In fact, there seems to be
considerable concern that there may be side
effects, why else has it been removed, other than
it was a stupid act in the first place.

Mercury has demonstrable effects, even in minute
quantities, but also effect from low doses that
manifest only after a long period and those
effects are most likely to occur in children. So
what kind of idiot would use it; mercury plus
children is stupid, far worse than lead plus
children.

According to kevin :
To say "There have not been scientific test..." about anything related
to mercury and autisim is about the biggest understatement I have seen
this week. The supposed connection betweeen mercury and autism has been
studied extensively, both in the US and around the world.

It is telling when someone tosses out one of these anecdotal tidbits as
if it means something, when there has been a debate that going on for
years, decades of research, and millions of dollars sunk into both
small and large studies. Oh, but your little anecdote hasn't been
studied you say, so I guess that just wipes the whole slate clean and
we can just forget all the studies and start the discussion fresh
again.

Well... I was just listening the other day to a discussion about the
major increases in autism that supposedly everybody is seeing worldwide
and is prompting such studies.

Some facts:

- The rise in autism in the US appears to be roughly
balanced by a _decrease_ in attention deficit disorders.

- The rest of the world is in fact _not_ seeing a big jump in autism
rates, for the most part they're relying on US numbers, because few
countries have that level of monitoring. Those that do, aren't seeing
anywhere near as big a jump, if at all.

- It's to a school (or school system's) financial advantage to have
a child declared autistic rather than ADD/ADHD because of US
state/federal school funding programmes.

While autism has a very exacting definition, it appears that many of
these children are being declared autistic by people who do not have
the credentials/experience to evaluate it properly.

Thus there is now doubt about the whole statistical basis of the
phenomena, and it's rippling all over the place.

The comment was that if a child was declared autistic by school
sponsored evaluation that they should get a second opinion from a
professional who specializes in autism.

While misdiagnosing a child with autism instead of an attention
deficit disorder benefits the school financially, it means that
it's not in the best interests of the child, because they get
the wrong treatment.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to George E. Cawthon :

Lots of people objected to the polio vaccine. And
that bad batch was from a single lab and ended up
in Idaho (where I live) where a lot of kids got
polio from the shots.

More important was the controversy between the
Saulk vaccine (based on dead virus) and the Sabin
vaccine which was an attenuated but live
vaccine. The latter was effective with kids and
spreading immunization but it killed a lot of the
older relatives of the kids vaccinated.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

The very first smallpox vaccine killed 1 out of 6. Those were better
odds than not being vaccinated in those days. [This predated the
famous cowpox vaccine]

Another vaccine that has had bad press is the diptheria (whooping cough)
vaccine. Which was reported to have a bad outcome in 1 out of 10,000
vaccinations. Yet... as I recall, the odds of catching diptheria
without being vaccinated are something like 1 in 6, and "bad outcomes"
from catching it is also something like 1 in 4 or 6. Or, in other words,
bad outcomes one in 24 to 36 for not being vaccinated.

Certainly, we need to be aware of the failure rates and strive to
drive them downwards. But expecting zero is unrealistic, and we
should not overexaggerate the dangers based on off-handed remarks
about "lots".
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to George E. Cawthon :


Lots of people objected to the polio vaccine. And
that bad batch was from a single lab and ended up
in Idaho (where I live) where a lot of kids got
polio from the shots.



More important was the controversy between the
Saulk vaccine (based on dead virus) and the Sabin
vaccine which was an attenuated but live
vaccine. The latter was effective with kids and
spreading immunization but it killed a lot of the
older relatives of the kids vaccinated.


Desperate times call for desperate measures.

The very first smallpox vaccine killed 1 out of 6. Those were better
odds than not being vaccinated in those days. [This predated the
famous cowpox vaccine]

Not sure what you mean by the first small pox
vaccine and predating the famous cowpox vaccine.
It still isn't clear, unless they cleared it up
very recently, exactly which organism was
contained in some of the vaccines. I don't know
what time frame you mean or where, but 1 in 6
deaths from smallpox doesn't sound right.



Another vaccine that has had bad press is the diptheria (whooping cough)
vaccine. Which was reported to have a bad outcome in 1 out of 10,000
vaccinations. Yet... as I recall, the odds of catching diptheria
without being vaccinated are something like 1 in 6, and "bad outcomes"
from catching it is also something like 1 in 4 or 6. Or, in other words,
bad outcomes one in 24 to 36 for not being vaccinated.

1 in 6 getting diptheria is also very high.


Certainly, we need to be aware of the failure rates and strive to
drive them downwards. But expecting zero is unrealistic, and we
should not overexaggerate the dangers based on off-handed remarks
about "lots".

Whoa, what comments are you reading. I said "lots
of people objected." Some how you translated
that into something about the disease occurence or
the efficacy of the vaccine?

I know damn well that lots of people objected to
just about any thing new.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 04:42:49 +0000, George E. Cawthon wrote:

Keith wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:26:59 +0000, George E. Cawthon wrote:


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Keith" wrote in message


Correlation causation. There are *thousands* of differences
between the Chinese and Americans. To blame mercury from vaccines
without cause is silly. There are far more plausable reasons for the rise
in autism, including self-selection of mates with autistic traits (geeks
on geeks)and our economy making this possible.


As I stated, there is not scientific proof and studies have not been done.
It may or may not be, but you don't offer a solution either. As the
thiomerisol is eliminated, it may show causation. We'll see.



Perhaps the real guestion is why anyone would
choose to put a mercury compound in any injectable
substance?


Because it works and has no demonstrable side effects? Geez!

Geez yourself, it is not clear that there are no
adverse effects. In fact, there seems to be
considerable concern that there may be side
effects, why else has it been removed, other than
it was a stupid act in the first place.

No, there are *NO* demonstrable side errects. There are inuendo and
sensational scare tactics aimed at the usual luddites. No science at
all.

Mercury has demonstrable effects, even in minute quantities, but also
effect from low doses that manifest only after a long period and those
effects are most likely to occur in children. So what kind of idiot
would use it; mercury plus children is stupid, far worse than lead plus
children.

Another luddite speaks. I suppose you've had all tha amalgum fillings
removed from your teeth too.

--
Keith