I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.


You figured out the problem right away: It's difficult to find a crimping
tool that's not useless. The ones at Home Depot and many other home centers
are simply crap. They flatten the connector, instead of shaping it. Whoever
designed these tools was sort of just kidding around. Stupid, in other
words.

This is a proper design:
http://www.mactools.com/ProductDetai...temNum=TCT1028

I have an older version from 20 years ago. You place the connector into the
appropriate groove in the jaw, based on the size of the connector. The
groove keeps the connector from being flattened. The tooth creates a concave
dimple which really grips the wire nicely. I can't pull apart the crimp
connections I make with this tool.

If you have an electrical supply store where you live, you might check them
out for tools like this. I can't imagine Mac Tools is the only company that
makes such a thing. If you can't find one at a retail store, contact Mac
Tools customer service and find out who owns tool trucks in your area. Bring
some of the actual crimps you'll be using and make sure they fit the tool
correctly.

When you're deciding where to actually use crimps, be sure to keep in mind
whether you or someone else may have to go back into a particular electric
box and change the wiring. You'll usually have to cut away an existing
crimp, and if the wires are already too short, things can get ugly for a
number of reasons. If you're doing new circuit work, you have the option of
leaving extra wire, but that's not always the case.

Side issue: If you ever see Panduit wire ties available, probably at an
electric/electronics dealer, buy some. You'll never buy the ones from Home
Depot or Lowe's again. Smooth....really smooth.

Some heaters come with crimped wire connections. I assume they have a pretty
good tool. I've seen them turn black after a few years. It looked to me like
they were burnt. Just because something is approved, doesn't mean it's safe.

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

It means the manufacturer used lousy crimp connectors. It's not easy to find
the good ones. The solid colored ones that you see in most places tend to be
cheaper, and turn brittle easily especially when exposed to high
temperatures. Then, there are the translucent ones - same color codes as the
others, but much more flexible at a wide range of temperatures. I wish I
recalled the brand. The wires will melt before those crimps will cause
problems.


"Bob" wrote in message
...
Some heaters come with crimped wire connections. I assume they have a
pretty
good tool. I've seen them turn black after a few years. It looked to me
like
they were burnt. Just because something is approved, doesn't mean it's
safe.

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Mr_Bill wrote:

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

If you're gonna make crimp connections, like gfretw said, use a decent
crimping tool or forget it.

Try this:
http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model...tm?ref=Froogle

I use crimp connectors for my job, they fail a LOT.

Wire nuts are way better and easily replced too, for wiring upgrades or
changes

Doug Kanter wrote:
It means the manufacturer used lousy crimp connectors. It's not easy to find
the good ones.

Sure it is, especially if you are a manufacturer. The problem is that so
much stuff is made to meet a price point that they can't afford to use
quality components.


The solid colored ones that you see in most places tend to be
cheaper, and turn brittle easily especially when exposed to high
temperatures. Then, there are the translucent ones - same color codes as the
others, but much more flexible at a wide range of temperatures. I wish I
recalled the brand. The wires will melt before those crimps will cause
problems.

"George" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
It means the manufacturer used lousy crimp connectors. It's not easy to
find the good ones.

Sure it is, especially if you are a manufacturer. The problem is that so
much stuff is made to meet a price point that they can't afford to use
quality components.

OK. Not easy if you're a retail customer like most people, just walking into
home supply or hardware stores. You might get lucky, or you might not.

Source for the right connectors:
http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1037

You'll have to jump through a few hoops to find a dealer, but it's worth the
trouble.

"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Doug Kanter wrote:

Source for the right connectors:
http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1037

You'll have to jump through a few hoops to find a dealer, but it's worth
the trouble.
Other considerations

Are they UL listed? This some indication of suitability and is required
for NEC wiring. A very limited perusal of Panduit didn't find UL listing.

Are they listed for solid wire or just stranded? Not an issue if you are
using just stranded. Some Panduit crimps are just for stranded. I have had
bad luck crimping #14 and larger solid.

As referenced by another post will they be used at high temperature. There
are nickle alloy crimps for high temp.

bud--

Take a look at each product individually. For instance:
http://www.panduit.com/search/produc...Name=BSN10%2DD

They're also approved for home wiring in many locales. Most people don't
ask, though, so they're not aware of it.

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Why?

Doug Kanter wrote:

Source for the right connectors:
http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1037

You'll have to jump through a few hoops to find a dealer, but it's worth the
trouble.


Other considerations

Are they UL listed? This some indication of suitability and is required
for NEC wiring. A very limited perusal of Panduit didn't find UL listing.

Are they listed for solid wire or just stranded? Not an issue if you are
using just stranded. Some Panduit crimps are just for stranded. I have
had bad luck crimping #14 and larger solid.

As referenced by another post will they be used at high temperature.
There are nickle alloy crimps for high temp.

bud--

I'm paranoid enough that whenever I use the crimp tool to put on quick
connects, spades, rings, whatever, I will crimp then solder it. The
insulation is partly damaged but at least I know the connection is good and
won't pull out.

I got my crimp connectors from Home Depot and they mate with a almost
clear to white cap that can only be used once. The crimp tool they sell
has a red handle and can crimp three types of crimps. Many here might
disagree with me but I use plyers to twist the wire a few turns, then
cut it off snug and then place the copper crimp ring over the wires and
crimp it. Then I place the cap on and I wouldn't worry about the
connection.

J


Mr_bill wrote:
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

"Steve Kraus" wrote in message
k.net...
I'm paranoid enough that whenever I use the crimp tool to put on quick
connects, spades, rings, whatever, I will crimp then solder it. The
insulation is partly damaged but at least I know the connection is good
and
won't pull out.

You have the wrong tool. If crimps are done right, it's extremely difficult
to pull them apart. The force you'd need would be far beyond anything the
wires would normally experience inside a junction box. And besides, whether
you're wiring a home or a trailer hitch, you're supposed to route and
support wires in such a way that they will never be subject to the kind of
forces that would cause the crimps to fail.

Steve Kraus wrote:

I'm paranoid enough that whenever I use the crimp tool to put on quick
connects, spades, rings, whatever, I will crimp then solder it. The
insulation is partly damaged but at least I know the connection is good and
won't pull out.

My recollection is that soldering a crimp has been shown to weaken it.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On 11 Jan 2006 11:07:12 -0800, "Mr_bill" wrote:

I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),

You know what they need? A stiff backing. That will keep them from
deforming.

and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

I'll bet. They need some way to attach them firmly. Maybe put the
sleeves in the form of a cone and screw them on.

You could make the backing out of plastic.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Make sure the connectors are rated for whatever type of wire you
joining/splicing. The proper crimping tool has the appearance of a large
bolt cutter or rebar cutter
A cheap source is www.princessauto.com




"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"George" wrote in message
...

Doug Kanter wrote:

It means the manufacturer used lousy crimp connectors. It's not easy to
find the good ones.

Sure it is, especially if you are a manufacturer. The problem is that so
much stuff is made to meet a price point that they can't afford to use
quality components.


OK. Not easy if you're a retail customer like most people, just walking into
home supply or hardware stores. You might get lucky, or you might not.



You just have to go to a real electrical store. There are at least three
in my area that stock either T&B, Panduit or Amp.

I do agree that most of the crimp stuff you find in the big box places
should be kept in the craft/toy aisle and not the electrical aisle.

What's wrong with wirenuts? They are about the easiest things to use
of anything. I would NOT use crimp conns. on household wiring. They
are made for automotive and other low voltage use, and in all honesty,
they are crappy for that use. When I wire something in my car, I use
small wirenuts. They are easier to install, cheaper, and less prone
to corrosion. I like to fill the open ends of wirenuts used on a car
with clear silicone to keep water out. I really do not understand why
you want to use cromps on home wiring, and additionally, I doubt they
are legal according to the code. Use what the code says. If you use
crimps and have a fire, your insurance might be rejected fro having
non-standard non-approved wiring.

I suggest you forget this whole idea and just continue to use
wirenuts.

Mark

On 11 Jan 2006 11:07:12 -0800, "Mr_bill" wrote:

I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:13:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"George" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
It means the manufacturer used lousy crimp connectors. It's not easy to
find the good ones.

Sure it is, especially if you are a manufacturer. The problem is that so
much stuff is made to meet a price point that they can't afford to use
quality components.

OK. Not easy if you're a retail customer like most people, just walking into
home supply or hardware stores. You might get lucky, or you might not.


I hope I GET LUCKY !!!

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...

I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.


Toller wrote:

Why?

Because a properly made crimp connection made with the proper tool is
far superior to a wire nut . For a long time many electricians have
used a Buchannon crimper when good connections are needed. In fact, in
some localities, such as in Fort Wayne, Indiana, to this day, a crimp
made with with a Buchannon crimper is THE ONLY acceptable connection
allowed for connecting the equipment ground wires in residences in
order to past an electrical inspection in that city.

This_IS_ the tool that most electricians in this country (USA) use to
make crimp connections on 12 and 14 gauge wires:

http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model...tm?ref=Froogle

The first time that I bought one it was $28 (US).

volts500 wrote:

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...


I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.



Toller wrote:


Why?


Because a properly made crimp connection made with the proper tool is
far superior to a wire nut . For a long time many electricians have
used a Buchannon crimper when good connections are needed. In fact, in
some localities, such as in Fort Wayne, Indiana, to this day, a crimp
made with with a Buchannon crimper is THE ONLY acceptable connection
allowed for connecting the equipment ground wires in residences in
order to past an electrical inspection in that city.

This_IS_ the tool that most electricians in this country (USA) use to
make crimp connections on 12 and 14 gauge wires:

http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model...tm?ref=Froogle

The first time that I bought one it was $28 (US).

Hi,
At least I have not experienced wire nut causing trouble. Crimping is
permanent vs wire nuts, you can undo it when needed.
But which one to use depends on the situation.
Tony

Oh I'm sure I have a crappy tool.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:16:29 GMT, CJT wrote:

My recollection is that soldering a crimp has been shown to weaken it.

When you are soldering a barell connector you only crimp it enough to
hold the wires together unttil the solder sets. That way the solder
has room to wick into the barrel. Be sure you have a big enough iron,
think mass. If the iron is too small it cools down and has to slowly
heat up the joint. That is what burns the insulation. The old time
sparkies used an iron with a tip the size of your thumb and a lot of
copper in it.

I think there are two types of crimps being discussed here. This type...
http://www.panduit.com/search/produc...Name=BSN10%2DD

has no place for solder, nor does it need it if properly installed.

The first time that I bought one it was $28 (US).

Yeah but you were working for Samuel Insull* at the time.

(* I was going to say Thomas Edison but thought I'd make it less obvious.)

wrote in message
...
What's wrong with wirenuts? They are about the easiest things to use
of anything. I would NOT use crimp conns. on household wiring. They
are made for automotive and other low voltage use, and in all honesty,
they are crappy for that use. When I wire something in my car, I use
small wirenuts. They are easier to install, cheaper, and less prone
to corrosion. I like to fill the open ends of wirenuts used on a car
with clear silicone to keep water out. I really do not understand why
you want to use cromps on home wiring, and additionally, I doubt they
are legal according to the code. Use what the code says. If you use
crimps and have a fire, your insurance might be rejected fro having
non-standard non-approved wiring.

I suggest you forget this whole idea and just continue to use
wirenuts.

Mark


Corrosion: If you've seen corroded crimp connectors, you never found the
good ones. It's nearly impossible to find them in retail stores.

Code: Don't spout theories without checking them first. They're actually
legal in quite a few municipalities.

In article ,
says...
What's wrong with wirenuts? They are about the easiest things to use
of anything. I would NOT use crimp conns. on household wiring. They
are made for automotive and other low voltage use, and in all honesty,
they are crappy for that use. When I wire something in my car, I use
small wirenuts. They are easier to install, cheaper, and less prone
to corrosion. I like to fill the open ends of wirenuts used on a car
with clear silicone to keep water out. I really do not understand why
you want to use cromps on home wiring, and additionally, I doubt they
are legal according to the code. Use what the code says. If you use
crimps and have a fire, your insurance might be rejected fro having
non-standard non-approved wiring.

Crimped connections certainly are code-approved most places, they're
UL listed, CSA approved, etc. They take up less space than a wire
nut, and when they're done right they're more vibration resistant.
They're available insulated (commonly 600V rating) or bare metal,
commonly copper.

I can't think of any good reason not to use properly-installed crimp
connectors for household wiring, except perhaps on fixtures that are
likely to be replaced somewhat frequently. I certainly wouldn't
worry about homeowner's insurance objecting to code-compliant crimped
connections.


--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

Buchanan Crimp Connectors

are the way to go

http://www.idealindustries.com/wt/CrimpConnectors.nsf

cheers
Bob

In article .com,
says...

Buchanan Crimp Connectors

are the way to go

http://www.idealindustries.com/wt/CrimpConnectors.nsf

I do love their crimp tools -- besides being the best electrical
crimpers I've ever used, they do a great job of securing end caps on
bicycle gear and brake housing -- since they crimp from four sides at
once, they leave the housing round.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html

In article ,
Doug Kanter wrote:
It means the manufacturer used lousy crimp connectors. It's not easy to find
the good ones. The solid colored ones that you see in most places tend to be
cheaper, and turn brittle easily especially when exposed to high
temperatures. Then, there are the translucent ones - same color codes as the
others, but much more flexible at a wide range of temperatures. I wish I
recalled the brand. The wires will melt before those crimps will cause
problems.


probably Thomas and Betts (T&B) www.tnb.com




--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net |
| P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 |
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .

Doug Kanter wrote:


Source for the right connectors:
http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1037

You'll have to jump through a few hoops to find a dealer, but it's worth
the trouble.

Other considerations

Are they UL listed? This some indication of suitability and is required
for NEC wiring. A very limited perusal of Panduit didn't find UL listing.

Are they listed for solid wire or just stranded? Not an issue if you are
using just stranded. Some Panduit crimps are just for stranded. I have had
bad luck crimping #14 and larger solid.

As referenced by another post will they be used at high temperature. There
are nickle alloy crimps for high temp.

bud--


Take a look at each product individually. For instance:
http://www.panduit.com/search/produc...Name=BSN10%2DD

Yes, that covers UL. No mention of solid or stranded - are all in that
set good for solid wire? What is your experience crimping #12 and #10 solid?

They're also approved for home wiring in many locales. Most people don't
ask, though, so they're not aware of it.

I don't remember any NEC restriction on wire connection devices for
general wiring other than they be UL listed (actually listed as
conforming to a UL standard). If listed and used within their ratings
crimps should be acceptable to the NEC. Presumably to comply with the
listing you have to use a manufacturer recommended tool.

bud--

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need some wiring advice. I have managed to survive
until now just using wire nuts for my home projects, but
I am at the point where it would be nice to use crimp connections
in a switch or outlet box, connecting 14 or 12 ga copper
wire.

Here's my question. When I go to Home Depot, all they
carry for crimp sleeves appear to be made out of copper
or some copper alloy. Anyway, these sleeves are pretty
soft. They deform pretty easily (too easily, I imagine),
and they fail my pull test. To top it off, the crimping tools
at HD are pretty cheesy.

My only experience crimping wire is non-electrical, but there
you use a "swaging tool" and a steel crimp sleeve. Once it's
set properly, it's almost as strong as the wire.

So far, I've just been staying away from electrical crimping,
as I don't want to burn the house down, but it would be very useful
to be able to do some safe crimp connections.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

I'll expand on Toller's question. Why? What circumstance in any residential
application requires the use of a crimped connection? As one poster
referenced, there may be a code requirement in one locale but I suspect
that's not your case. Now, I'm all for over-engineering something and also
looking for a reason to buy a new cool tool.

So, what is the reason you think you require a crimped connection?

Bud-- wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .

Doug Kanter wrote:


Source for the right connectors:
http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1037

You'll have to jump through a few hoops to find a dealer, but it's worth
the trouble.

Other considerations

Are they UL listed? This some indication of suitability and is required
for NEC wiring. A very limited perusal of Panduit didn't find UL listing.

Are they listed for solid wire or just stranded? Not an issue if you are
using just stranded. Some Panduit crimps are just for stranded. I have had
bad luck crimping #14 and larger solid.

As referenced by another post will they be used at high temperature. There
are nickle alloy crimps for high temp.

bud--


Take a look at each product individually. For instance:
http://www.panduit.com/search/produc...Name=BSN10%2DD

Yes, that covers UL. No mention of solid or stranded - are all in that
set good for solid wire? What is your experience crimping #12 and #10 solid?

They're also approved for home wiring in many locales. Most people don't
ask, though, so they're not aware of it.

I don't remember any NEC restriction on wire connection devices for
general wiring other than they be UL listed (actually listed as
conforming to a UL standard). If listed and used within their ratings
crimps should be acceptable to the NEC. Presumably to comply with the
listing you have to use a manufacturer recommended tool.

bud--
Where I am special crimp connections are required by code for making
Al-Cu connections. However the equipment is so expensive no one stocks
it or rents it.
Richard

In reply to "No"

Question: why even *want* to crimp, anyway?

my answer: space. (a) my house (1969, Cu wiring) used
crimps when built. There are many boxes where there is
no room for wire nuts when rewiring in an existing box. (b)
I am remodelling my kitchen. new wiring, new boxes. I got
the largest volume boxes I could find, but I am using (an admittedly
over-the-top number of) programmable dimmers which have 5,
count 'em, 5, connections for each dimmer (gnd, neut, data buss,
hot, switched load).

Maybe not a good reason, but that's my reason.

BTW, thanks to all the reply-ers for very interesting and
thoughtful comments and suggestions.

Bill

"spudnuty" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bud-- wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Bud--" wrote in message
.. .

Doug Kanter wrote:


Source for the right connectors:
http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1037

You'll have to jump through a few hoops to find a dealer, but it's
worth
the trouble.

Other considerations

Are they UL listed? This some indication of suitability and is required
for NEC wiring. A very limited perusal of Panduit didn't find UL
listing.

Are they listed for solid wire or just stranded? Not an issue if you
are
using just stranded. Some Panduit crimps are just for stranded. I have
had
bad luck crimping #14 and larger solid.

As referenced by another post will they be used at high temperature.
There
are nickle alloy crimps for high temp.

bud--


Take a look at each product individually. For instance:
http://www.panduit.com/search/produc...Name=BSN10%2DD

Yes, that covers UL. No mention of solid or stranded - are all in that
set good for solid wire? What is your experience crimping #12 and #10
solid?

They're also approved for home wiring in many locales. Most people
don't
ask, though, so they're not aware of it.

I don't remember any NEC restriction on wire connection devices for
general wiring other than they be UL listed (actually listed as
conforming to a UL standard). If listed and used within their ratings
crimps should be acceptable to the NEC. Presumably to comply with the
listing you have to use a manufacturer recommended tool.

bud--
Where I am special crimp connections are required by code for making
Al-Cu connections. However the equipment is so expensive no one stocks
it or rents it.
Richard


What sort of equipment? If it has to be usable in some of the confined
spaces where you often have to make connections, wouldn't it have to be in
the size of range of other hand tools?

"Mr_bill" wrote in message
ups.com...
In reply to "No"

Question: why even *want* to crimp, anyway?

my answer: space. (a) my house (1969, Cu wiring) used
crimps when built. There are many boxes where there is
no room for wire nuts when rewiring in an existing box. (b)
I am remodelling my kitchen. new wiring, new boxes. I got
the largest volume boxes I could find, but I am using (an admittedly
over-the-top number of) programmable dimmers which have 5,
count 'em, 5, connections for each dimmer (gnd, neut, data buss,
hot, switched load).

Maybe not a good reason, but that's my reason.

BTW, thanks to all the reply-ers for very interesting and
thoughtful comments and suggestions.

Bill

Thanks for commenting back. Sometimes folks take the time to reply to
posters then feel like they are talking back to no one.

Would you mind posting information on the programmable dimmers? Sounds like
they are not X10 given a data buss connection. Why did you chose your
system? Is it easy to retrofit?

bud--
Where I am special crimp connections are required by code for making
Al-Cu connections. However the equipment is so expensive no one stocks
it or rents it.
Richard


What sort of equipment? If it has to be usable in some of the confined
spaces where you often have to make connections, wouldn't it have to be in
the size of range of other hand tools?
Well this came up when I looked at a job in a high rise condo. There
were many badly damaged outlets and upon inspection it was clear that
there had been a lot of overheated connections. Even some burning. The
building was from the 70's and the wiring was all aluminum. I have had
bad experience with aluminum badly installed. One power distribution
room I was in had so much arcing in it you really didn't need to have
the lights on.
Anyway it's on Sam's he
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-...ection-16.html
and initially he
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...C~20030502.htm
The tool required is AMP PART NO. 933150-1. They will only sell to
licensed electricians who have completed their (AMP's) training
program. Cost of training, $2000 and actually the tool cannot be
purchased only leased. Cost of a 3 month lease, $700-$800 dollars.
I presented this to my client with the option of replacing everything
with copper and he hired someone else and they used wirenuts. In
talking to a longtime employee of the building he said "Yah there have
been a lot of electrical fires in the building."
Richard

"spudnuty" wrote in message
oups.com...
bud--
Where I am special crimp connections are required by code for making
Al-Cu connections. However the equipment is so expensive no one stocks
it or rents it.
Richard


What sort of equipment? If it has to be usable in some of the confined
spaces where you often have to make connections, wouldn't it have to be
in
the size of range of other hand tools?
Well this came up when I looked at a job in a high rise condo. There
were many badly damaged outlets and upon inspection it was clear that
there had been a lot of overheated connections. Even some burning. The
building was from the 70's and the wiring was all aluminum. I have had
bad experience with aluminum badly installed. One power distribution
room I was in had so much arcing in it you really didn't need to have
the lights on.
Anyway it's on Sam's he
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-...ection-16.html
and initially he
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...C~20030502.htm
The tool required is AMP PART NO. 933150-1. They will only sell to
licensed electricians who have completed their (AMP's) training
program. Cost of training, $2000 and actually the tool cannot be
purchased only leased. Cost of a 3 month lease, $700-$800 dollars.
I presented this to my client with the option of replacing everything
with copper and he hired someone else and they used wirenuts. In
talking to a longtime employee of the building he said "Yah there have
been a lot of electrical fires in the building."
Richard


I wonder what it cost them to take care of the building inspector, either
financially, or with a bag of cement.

spudnuty wrote:
bud--

Where I am special crimp connections are required by code for making
Al-Cu connections. However the equipment is so expensive no one stocks
it or rents it.
Richard


What sort of equipment? If it has to be usable in some of the confined
spaces where you often have to make connections, wouldn't it have to be in
the size of range of other hand tools?

Well this came up when I looked at a job in a high rise condo. There
were many badly damaged outlets and upon inspection it was clear that
there had been a lot of overheated connections. Even some burning. The
building was from the 70's and the wiring was all aluminum. I have had
bad experience with aluminum badly installed. One power distribution
room I was in had so much arcing in it you really didn't need to have
the lights on.
Anyway it's on Sam's he
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-...ection-16.html
and initially he
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...C~20030502.htm
The tool required is AMP PART NO. 933150-1. They will only sell to
licensed electricians who have completed their (AMP's) training
program. Cost of training, $2000 and actually the tool cannot be
purchased only leased. Cost of a 3 month lease, $700-$800 dollars.
I presented this to my client with the option of replacing everything
with copper and he hired someone else and they used wirenuts. In
talking to a longtime employee of the building he said "Yah there have
been a lot of electrical fires in the building."
Richard

Thanks for the information on cost of the crimp tool - I read complaints
but I didn't think it was THAT expensive.

In addition to cold creep in the wiring FAQ (which was substantially
fixed with new alloy wire and CO/ALR devices) another major problem is
aluminum oxide which forms rapidly on clean aluminum and is an insulator.

The Consumer Product Safety Council had extensive research done on
aluminum connections. The professional engineer involved in the research
wrote a paper based on the research - at
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm
The paper gives a wide range of fixes from the crimp tool you talk about
to wire nuts and others. There is a detailed procedure for using
wirenuts which includes applying antioxide paste and then abrading the
surface to remove oxides. The author does not think wirenuts are an
improvement without the procedure. There is, as far as I know, only one
wirenut UL listed for aluminum wire (from Ideal) - the author
specifically does not like it.
---------------------------
Do garden variety crimps, like panduit, work reliably on #14 and lagrer
wire?

bud--