Ignoramus4324 wrote:
I wonder if I can use the following bulbs to light varios areas of my
home where I like to have a lot of light:

400 watt BT37 Mogul Base Coated Horizontal Burn +/- 15 degrees High
Output Position Oriented Metal Halide Sylvania Light Bulb
(Sylvania MS400/3K/HOR 64498)

Our Part #: SL64498
Manufacturer: Sylvania
Manufacturer Code: MS400/3K/HOR
Price: $93.99 Each
Case Size: 6 ($563.94/Case)
Specifications
Light Output: 33,500 lumens
Energy Used: 400 watts
Average Lifetime: 20,000 hours
Bulb Type: BT37
Base Type: Position Oriented Mogul
Color: 3,200K
CRI: 70
Length: 11.5 inches

What kind of weed are you planning to grow?

You can use them, but they are going to be bright and if you have many
of them, don't be surprised if you get a visit from the cops.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"Ignoramus4324" wrote:

I wonder if I can use the following bulbs to light varios areas of my
home where I like to have a lot of light:

400 watt BT37 Mogul Base Coated Horizontal Burn +/- 15 degrees High
Output Position Oriented Metal Halide Sylvania Light Bulb
(Sylvania MS400/3K/HOR 64498)

Our Part #: SL64498
Manufacturer: Sylvania
Manufacturer Code: MS400/3K/HOR
Price: $93.99 Each
Case Size: 6 ($563.94/Case)
Specifications
Light Output: 33,500 lumens
Energy Used: 400 watts
Average Lifetime: 20,000 hours
Bulb Type: BT37
Base Type: Position Oriented Mogul
Color: 3,200K
CRI: 70
Length: 11.5 inches

MUCH SNIPPED

There have been a couple of incidents around here (Portland / Lake Oswego,
OR) recently where Halide lights in school gymnasiums (ok gymnasia to the
Latin /reek scholars) had cracked outer coatings. The lights emitted
a_LOT_ of bad UV stuff; several students and teachers apparently suffered
serious and permanent eye damage. The exposure was over a several month
period, AIUI, and there was no obvious indicator that the bulb outer
coatings were cracked.

Me, I'd stay away from them in the home / garage / workshop setting.

And I say that living in an area where from about now to mid April where our
"daylight" is usually a cold wet grey cloudy dim mess. I like "bright",
but won't take unnecessary risks.



--
Jim McLaughlin

Reply address is deliberately munged.
If you really need to reply directly, try:
jimdotmclaughlinatcomcastdotcom

And you know it is a dotnet not a dotcom
address.

"Ignoramus4324" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:36:14 -0800, Jim McLaughlin jim.mclaughlin wrote:
"Ignoramus4324" wrote:

I wonder if I can use the following bulbs to light varios areas of my
home where I like to have a lot of light:

400 watt BT37 Mogul Base Coated Horizontal Burn +/- 15 degrees High
Output Position Oriented Metal Halide Sylvania Light Bulb
(Sylvania MS400/3K/HOR 64498)

Our Part #: SL64498
Manufacturer: Sylvania
Manufacturer Code: MS400/3K/HOR
Price: $93.99 Each
Case Size: 6 ($563.94/Case)
Specifications
Light Output: 33,500 lumens
Energy Used: 400 watts
Average Lifetime: 20,000 hours
Bulb Type: BT37
Base Type: Position Oriented Mogul
Color: 3,200K
CRI: 70
Length: 11.5 inches

MUCH SNIPPED

There have been a couple of incidents around here (Portland / Lake
Oswego,
OR) recently where Halide lights in school gymnasiums (ok gymnasia to
the
Latin /reek scholars) had cracked outer coatings. The lights emitted
a_LOT_ of bad UV stuff; several students and teachers apparently
suffered
serious and permanent eye damage. The exposure was over a several month
period, AIUI, and there was no obvious indicator that the bulb outer
coatings were cracked.

Me, I'd stay away from them in the home / garage / workshop setting.

And I say that living in an area where from about now to mid April where
our
"daylight" is usually a cold wet grey cloudy dim mess. I like
"bright",
but won't take unnecessary risks.

Thanks. You raised a great issue and I would not want to take any eye
damage risk. Would it make any sense to enclose them into some
appropriate (rated for heat input) glass diffusers of any sort? Glass
is a UV filter, right?


I have no idea what, if anything, filters (or absorbs?) UV output from the
halide lights. More you filter it though, seems to me the more you cut down
the lumens / sq. ft. on your work surfaces. If you filter the Halide output
enough, you might as well be using regular fluorescents. The captal cost
on the fluorescents has got to be lower than the halides plus additional
filters. And the fluorescents adhere to th KISS principle.


--
Jim McLaughlin

Reply address is deliberately munged.
If you really need to reply directly, try:
jimdotmclaughlinatcomcastdotcom

And you know it is a dotnet not a dotcom
address.


It looks as though going with more regular fluorescents may be more
sensible though.

i

According to Ignoramus4324 :
Thanks. You raised a great issue and I would not want to take any eye
damage risk. Would it make any sense to enclose them into some
appropriate (rated for heat input) glass diffusers of any sort? Glass
is a UV filter, right?

It looks as though going with more regular fluorescents may be more
sensible though.

I'd recommend the fluorescents for several reasons entirely aside from
potential UV emission.

- MH bulbs are _hot_. In a smallish area (a garage would qualify),
the directed heat will occasionally be uncomfortable.

- MH systems are expensive.

- Used as overall lighting in a relatively low-ceiling space, MHs
will have intense hard-to-miss super bright spots, which will have
you stumbling around with purple spots in your eyes.

- I'd rather not have MH bulbs in a workshop, where accidentally
hitting one will let stuff out that you don't want...

- MHs are somewhat more efficient than ordinary incandescents, but
not nearly as good as fluorescents, and as such, going with a lot
of MHs to get a lot of light is going to cost a fair bit to operate.

Your best bet is to use fluorescents as overall lighting, and use
floods or spot lamps in work areas where you need it.

I've built my shop with several 8' fluorescent fixtures for
overall lighting, and used a variety of quartz halogen fixtures
mounted on the ceiling for task lighting. In order to keep costs down,
I've used a few 150W and 300W rectangular QH flood lamp fixtures (long
skinny QH bulbs) - they're quite cheap. Even cheaper are simple
flood lamp holders with PAR30 QH bulbs (45-60W), tho you can up 'em
to PAR50s (up to 300W, but I'd stay below 100W because of heating
issues) if you wish.

Note that these fixtures are not normally indoor ceiling mounted,
and you need to be aware of the fact that they do produce a lot
of heat. The ceiling of my shop is drywalled... The inspector
didn't question them either.

Note also that I have to be careful not to run into them with
large pieces of lumber. Pot fixtures would be nicer, but they're
not as flexible. In 10 years or so, I've not broken one yet....
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Essentially, I would not mind a visit from the cops all that much, I
have nothing serious to hide. I cannot see, though, why they would
decide to visit, but that's all beside the point. "

Homes with abnormally large heat blooms in the structure, or on the
power pole (transformer) are a signature of someone using lots of
lights (often MHAs!) to grow marijuana.

Dave

Ignoramus4324 wrote:
On 28 Nov 2005 10:53:00 -0800, wrote:

"Essentially, I would not mind a visit from the cops all that much, I
have nothing serious to hide. I cannot see, though, why they would
decide to visit, but that's all beside the point. "

Homes with abnormally large heat blooms in the structure, or on the
power pole (transformer) are a signature of someone using lots of
lights (often MHAs!) to grow marijuana.


I think that as a law abiding citizen in a country under the rule of
law, it is not a good reason to avoid lawful activity just because it
has a heat signature similar to unlawful activity.

Worst case is, I get a visit from law enforcement, and if they have a
search warrant, I would gladly show them my MH lighting.

No, the worst case is they will break your door down in the middle
of the night, guns drawn. Welcome to Bush's America.


If they do not have a search warrant, I would tell them that I use MH
lighting in my garage, and politely tell them to get a search warrant
to enter my house.

If burglars break into my house at night, I will shoot to stop.

Besides, that ligting will see intermittent use, only when I am
actually working in a garage. It is unlikely to be running at all
hours of the day. So, I question the premise that use of MH lighting
for illuminating a garage, would truly arouse suspicions any more
than, say, use of 1 kW spotlights such a the one I have.

There could be good reasons to avoid MH lighting such as

- cost
- comfort
- eye safety
- fire safety

etc. Visits from cops are not a good enough reason.

i



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Ignoramus4324 wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:15:50 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:

Ignoramus4324 wrote:

I wonder if I can use the following bulbs to light varios areas of my
home where I like to have a lot of light:

400 watt BT37 Mogul Base Coated Horizontal Burn +/- 15 degrees High
Output Position Oriented Metal Halide Sylvania Light Bulb
(Sylvania MS400/3K/HOR 64498)

Our Part #: SL64498
Manufacturer: Sylvania
Manufacturer Code: MS400/3K/HOR
Price: $93.99 Each
Case Size: 6 ($563.94/Case)
Specifications
Light Output: 33,500 lumens
Energy Used: 400 watts
Average Lifetime: 20,000 hours
Bulb Type: BT37
Base Type: Position Oriented Mogul
Color: 3,200K
CRI: 70
Length: 11.5 inches

What kind of weed are you planning to grow?

You can use them, but they are going to be bright and if you have many
of them, don't be surprised if you get a visit from the cops.


Well, the joke was great, but I am not planning to grow
weeds. Although I do have some house plants that could benefit from
some good light in winter.

I was hoping to be able to use them in my garage. I often work in it
and would like to have very bright lighting there, somewhat
approaching daylight. It makes things pleasant. I have some
fluorescent lights there, but would like even more light. Hence my
question.

Essentially, I would not mind a visit from the cops all that much, I
have nothing serious to hide. I cannot see, though, why they would
decide to visit, but that's all beside the point.

The questions are, essentially, are they suitable for garage
lighting. Do they emit harmful UV and is their light pleasant for
eyes.

I have no experience with MH lights.

Thanks

i



I have a very similar lamp that I've experimented with in my basement.
I don't recall the exact lamp number.

The 3000k coated lamps are much more pleasant light to look at than
similar 4200k lamps with the clear envelope, and they don't fade the
furniture as much. But my fixture has trouble starting this lamp -- the
old wornout clear lamp still starts just fine.

Bob

Ig, I agree 100%, just thought you'd like to know *why* the other
poster was suggesting you'd get a knock on the door (or why someone
might be taking out the hinges with a few well-placed shotgun
blasts...)

Dave

Ignoramus4324 wrote:
...

I was hoping to be able to use them in my garage. I often work in it
and would like to have very bright lighting there, somewhat
approaching daylight. It makes things pleasant. I have some
fluorescent lights there, but would like even more light. Hence my
question.

I would suggest fluorescent lights, the 8 foot jobs (maybe one of them
that use two pair or four foot lamps) get the high efficiency ones and make
sure they are rated for cold temperatures (unless you live in a very warm
area.)
--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Ignoramus4324 wrote:
On 28 Nov 2005 10:53:00 -0800,
wrote:
"Essentially, I would not mind a visit from the cops all that much, I
have nothing serious to hide. I cannot see, though, why they would
decide to visit, but that's all beside the point. "

Homes with abnormally large heat blooms in the structure, or on the
power pole (transformer) are a signature of someone using lots of
lights (often MHAs!) to grow marijuana.

I think that as a law abiding citizen in a country under the rule of
law, it is not a good reason to avoid lawful activity just because it
has a heat signature similar to unlawful activity.

Worst case is, I get a visit from law enforcement, and if they have a
search warrant, I would gladly show them my MH lighting.

If they do not have a search warrant, I would tell them that I use MH
lighting in my garage, and politely tell them to get a search warrant
to enter my house.

If burglars break into my house at night, I will shoot to stop.

Besides, that ligting will see intermittent use, only when I am
actually working in a garage. It is unlikely to be running at all
hours of the day. So, I question the premise that use of MH lighting
for illuminating a garage, would truly arouse suspicions any more
than, say, use of 1 kW spotlights such a the one I have.

There could be good reasons to avoid MH lighting such as

- cost
- comfort
- eye safety
- fire safety

etc. Visits from cops are not a good enough reason.

i

I would just laugh if they showed up at my home and invite them in.
I figure if they are there the bad guys are going to be somewhere else.
Besides I think most of the already know me from seeing me running. I live
in a small town.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

CJT wrote:
....

No, the worst case is they will break your door down in the middle
of the night, guns drawn. Welcome to Bush's America.


Sad, but there is some truth to that.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On 28-Nov-2005, Ignoramus4324 wrote:

Glass is a UV filter, right?

Glass _can_ be a UV filter if it's coated with the appropriate material.
Some plastics are UV absorbant but even they need special treatment to
make them highly UV absorbant. Polycarbonate, for example, will block
UV, but if you want PC that is rated for eye protection against UV, you
look for UV400 polycarbonate.

How are you going to get this single bulb to distribute the light evenly
in a garage?

Mike

Ignoramus4324 wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:21:41 -0000, Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Ignoramus4324 :
Thanks. You raised a great issue and I would not want to take any eye
damage risk. Would it make any sense to enclose them into some
appropriate (rated for heat input) glass diffusers of any sort? Glass
is a UV filter, right?

It looks as though going with more regular fluorescents may be more
sensible though.

I'd recommend the fluorescents for several reasons entirely aside from
potential UV emission.

- MH bulbs are _hot_. In a smallish area (a garage would qualify),
the directed heat will occasionally be uncomfortable.

Makes sense.

- MH systems are expensive.

Chris, just what is involved in having a "MH system"?

The lightbulbs seem to just need light sockets. I would suppose tat
they need robust switches, maybe 0 crossing solid state relays. What
else is involved, especially with indirect lighting?

They need a ballast (big transformer), and a capacitor. They take
thousands of volts to ignite, and thus require special HV socket and
wiring from ballast to socket. The ballast will require cooling (fan of)
it's own.

A fixture designed for indoor use should have a UV filter option, this
is generally a piece of heat tempered glass.

They will generate more UV than standard lights, so more fabric fading
is common.

It would be far easier to do it with 250 watt/U bulbs, since they are
more common, and work in any position.

For indirect lighting, you can get an outdoor fixture from a box store,
in the smaller sizes, that should work. At least enough to try it out.

I already installed four 4' 2 bulb fixtures (total of 8 fluorescent
bulbs) and the result leaves some room for improvement. It is just not
bright enough.

I suppose I could install, say, 2 more 8 foot fixtures for the total
of four 8 ft bulbs. There are some high efficiency ones, the last time
I checked, HD was out of them.


Try swapping for full-spectrum bulbs in the florescents, and/or
moving them farther apart.

"Jim McLaughlin" jim.mclaughlin wrote in
:

"Ignoramus4324" wrote:

I wonder if I can use the following bulbs to light varios areas of
my
home where I like to have a lot of light:

400 watt BT37 Mogul Base Coated Horizontal Burn +/- 15 degrees
High Output Position Oriented Metal Halide Sylvania Light Bulb
(Sylvania MS400/3K/HOR 64498)

Our Part #: SL64498
Manufacturer: Sylvania
Manufacturer Code: MS400/3K/HOR
Price: $93.99 Each
Case Size: 6 ($563.94/Case)
Specifications
Light Output: 33,500 lumens
Energy Used: 400 watts
Average Lifetime: 20,000 hours
Bulb Type: BT37
Base Type: Position Oriented Mogul
Color: 3,200K
CRI: 70
Length: 11.5 inches

MUCH SNIPPED

There have been a couple of incidents around here (Portland / Lake
Oswego, OR) recently where Halide lights in school gymnasiums (ok
gymnasia to the Latin /reek scholars) had cracked outer coatings.
The lights emitted a_LOT_ of bad UV stuff; several students and
teachers apparently suffered serious and permanent eye damage. The
exposure was over a several month period, AIUI, and there was no
obvious indicator that the bulb outer coatings were cracked.

Me, I'd stay away from them in the home / garage / workshop setting.

And I say that living in an area where from about now to mid April
where our "daylight" is usually a cold wet grey cloudy dim mess. I
like "bright", but won't take unnecessary risks.




Those metal halides emit a LOT of UV,and are not filtered.
They will fade any colored items,and are bad for your eyesight if not
filtered.They also can explode and shower you with broken glass shards.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

(Chris Lewis) wrote in
:

According to Ignoramus4324 :
Thanks. You raised a great issue and I would not want to take any eye
damage risk. Would it make any sense to enclose them into some
appropriate (rated for heat input) glass diffusers of any sort? Glass
is a UV filter, right?

It looks as though going with more regular fluorescents may be more
sensible though.

I'd recommend the fluorescents for several reasons entirely aside from
potential UV emission.

- MH bulbs are _hot_. In a smallish area (a garage would qualify),
the directed heat will occasionally be uncomfortable.

- MH systems are expensive.

- Used as overall lighting in a relatively low-ceiling space, MHs
will have intense hard-to-miss super bright spots, which will have
you stumbling around with purple spots in your eyes.

- I'd rather not have MH bulbs in a workshop, where accidentally
hitting one will let stuff out that you don't want...

- MHs are somewhat more efficient than ordinary incandescents, but
not nearly as good as fluorescents, and as such, going with a lot
of MHs to get a lot of light is going to cost a fair bit to operate.

Your best bet is to use fluorescents as overall lighting, and use
floods or spot lamps in work areas where you need it.

I've built my shop with several 8' fluorescent fixtures for
overall lighting, and used a variety of quartz halogen fixtures
mounted on the ceiling for task lighting. In order to keep costs down,
I've used a few 150W and 300W rectangular QH flood lamp fixtures (long
skinny QH bulbs) - they're quite cheap. Even cheaper are simple
flood lamp holders with PAR30 QH bulbs (45-60W), tho you can up 'em
to PAR50s (up to 300W, but I'd stay below 100W because of heating
issues) if you wish.

Note that these fixtures are not normally indoor ceiling mounted,
and you need to be aware of the fact that they do produce a lot
of heat. The ceiling of my shop is drywalled... The inspector
didn't question them either.

Note also that I have to be careful not to run into them with
large pieces of lumber. Pot fixtures would be nicer, but they're
not as flexible. In 10 years or so, I've not broken one yet....

One other note;I worked in a lab with MH lighting,and any brief power
interruption meant we went without light for the time it takes for them to
cool and then re-ignite,about 15 minutes,IIRC. A PITA.
Our lights had UV filters,and reflected off the white ceiling.
I would not want them in my home.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in
:

CJT wrote:
...

No, the worst case is they will break your door down in the middle
of the night, guns drawn. Welcome to Bush's America.

They would do the same under Clinton's or Kerry's America.



Sad, but there is some truth to that.


Yeah,just think "Janet Reno",about breaking down doors with guns drawn.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Ignoramus4324 wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:21:41 -0000, Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Ignoramus4324 :

Thanks. You raised a great issue and I would not want to take any eye
damage risk. Would it make any sense to enclose them into some
appropriate (rated for heat input) glass diffusers of any sort? Glass
is a UV filter, right?



It looks as though going with more regular fluorescents may be more
sensible though.

I'd recommend the fluorescents for several reasons entirely aside from
potential UV emission.

- MH bulbs are _hot_. In a smallish area (a garage would qualify),
the directed heat will occasionally be uncomfortable.


Makes sense.


- MH systems are expensive.


Chris, just what is involved in having a "MH system"?

The lightbulbs seem to just need light sockets. I would suppose tat
they need robust switches, maybe 0 crossing solid state relays. What
else is involved, especially with indirect lighting?


- Used as overall lighting in a relatively low-ceiling space, MHs
will have intense hard-to-miss super bright spots, which will have
you stumbling around with purple spots in your eyes.

- I'd rather not have MH bulbs in a workshop, where accidentally
hitting one will let stuff out that you don't want...


Yes. If I go ahead with them (doubtful at this point), I would use
them for INdirect lighting.


- MHs are somewhat more efficient than ordinary incandescents, but
not nearly as good as fluorescents, and as such, going with a lot
of MHs to get a lot of light is going to cost a fair bit to operate.

Your best bet is to use fluorescents as overall lighting, and use
floods or spot lamps in work areas where you need it.

I've built my shop with several 8' fluorescent fixtures for
overall lighting, and used a variety of quartz halogen fixtures
mounted on the ceiling for task lighting.


Thanks. My problem with fluorescents, is that there "never seems to be
enough". I already have 4 fixtures with 8 4 foot bulbs, and that is
barely adequate. I want to be able to feel great about the amoun tof
light that I have.

i

They need to have matched ballasts, Only use in the specifc fixture
designed for the reated MH Bulb.

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in
:


CJT wrote:
...

No, the worst case is they will break your door down in the middle
of the night, guns drawn. Welcome to Bush's America.


They would do the same under Clinton's or Kerry's America.


There wasn't/wouldn't be a "Patriot Act" under them.


Sad, but there is some truth to that.



Yeah,just think "Janet Reno",about breaking down doors with guns drawn.


That guy wasn't a "law abiding citizen."

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

In article , Ignoramus4324 wrote:

The questions are, essentially, are they suitable for garage
lighting. Do they emit harmful UV and is their light pleasant for
eyes.

I like them.

UV content is less than that in a similar amount of daylight. Just
don't use them if the outer bulb gets broken - the bulb blocks nasty
shortwave UV and UVB that the arc makes a little bit of.

Use in suitable fully enclosed fixtures rated for use with these bulbs,
unless the bulb package says that the bulb is suitable for use in open
fixtures. Every few blue moons somewhere a metal halide bulb that is not
of the "protected" type (suitable for use in open fixtures) explodes.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Jim McLaughlin
wrote:

There have been a couple of incidents around here (Portland / Lake Oswego,
OR) recently where Halide lights in school gymnasiums (ok gymnasia to the
Latin /reek scholars) had cracked outer coatings. The lights emitted
a_LOT_ of bad UV stuff; several students and teachers apparently suffered
serious and permanent eye damage. The exposure was over a several month
period, AIUI, and there was no obvious indicator that the bulb outer
coatings were cracked.

I believe the degree of eye damage was overblown. If the bulb has just
a crack, not much nasty UV gets out. And the way I hear it, eye
irritation from shortwave UV and UVB is generally recoverable.

But if the bulbs are in an enclosed fixture, then the fixture covering
stops any nast UV that gets out of the bulb.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Chris Lewis wrote:

I'd recommend the fluorescents for several reasons entirely aside from
potential UV emission.

- MH bulbs are _hot_. In a smallish area (a garage would qualify),
the directed heat will occasionally be uncomfortable.

- MH systems are expensive.

- Used as overall lighting in a relatively low-ceiling space, MHs
will have intense hard-to-miss super bright spots, which will have
you stumbling around with purple spots in your eyes.

- I'd rather not have MH bulbs in a workshop, where accidentally
hitting one will let stuff out that you don't want...

- MHs are somewhat more efficient than ordinary incandescents, but
not nearly as good as fluorescents, and as such, going with a lot
of MHs to get a lot of light is going to cost a fair bit to operate.

That last one is not true. Especially good fluorescents have only about
the same efficiency as 400 watt metal halides.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Michael Daly wrote:

On 28-Nov-2005, Ignoramus4324 wrote:

Glass is a UV filter, right?

Glass _can_ be a UV filter if it's coated with the appropriate material.
Some plastics are UV absorbant but even they need special treatment to
make them highly UV absorbant. Polycarbonate, for example, will block
UV, but if you want PC that is rated for eye protection against UV, you
look for UV400 polycarbonate.

Any old glass, polycarbonate and the common acrylic sheets are plenty
good for protection from shortwave UV and UVB from a broken bulb. The UVA
that gets through these materials will be less than that in a similar
quantity of daylight. Metal halide lamps designed for illumination are
actually not that efficient at producing UV - they are somewhat good at
specializing in producing visible light.

The special materials mentioned by Michael Daly are only needed when
you need a degree of UV removal much more severe than merely having a fair
amount less UV than is present in a similar quantity of sunlight that has
gone through window glass.


- Don Klipstein )

In article , Goedjn wrote:


I already installed four 4' 2 bulb fixtures (total of 8 fluorescent
bulbs) and the result leaves some room for improvement. It is just not
bright enough.

I suppose I could install, say, 2 more 8 foot fixtures for the total
of four 8 ft bulbs. There are some high efficiency ones, the last time
I checked, HD was out of them.


Try swapping for full-spectrum bulbs in the florescents, and/or
moving them farther apart.

I would avoid those, since they produce less light. Typically about 1/3
less.

If you are getting new fixtures, then I recommend 4-footers with
electronic ballasts and taking F32T8 "lamps" (bulbs). And get bulbs of
color code 830, 835, 841 or 850 (or GE ones SPX30, SPX35, SPX41, SPX50).
The 8 or SPX means color rendering index in the low, maybe mid 80's as
well as - unlike most other fluorescent lamps - their color distortions
mostly in the direction of making colors brighter and more vivid. Also,
these have full light output.

If you want daylight-like color close to that of noontime tropical
sunlight, then get 850 or GE's SPX50. Just be sure to have enough
fixtures to get things nice and bright - otherwise this icy cold pure
white can cause a "dreary gray" effect.

The 2-digit part of the color code is an abbreviated nominal color
temperature in Kelvin.

30 - "warm white"
35 - what I call "semi warm white"
41 - "cool white" (but with better color rendering than actual "cool
white")
50 - icy cold pure white, sometimes looks very slightly bluish

As for the "7" and GE SP as opposed to 8 or SPX: The 7 and SP are a
lower grade with a slightly different spectrum and color rendering index
in the upper 70's, and their color distortions are not as flattering as
those of "8" and "SPX".
Home centers normally have the 7-color grade ones. I would go to an
electric/lighting supply shop or an online seller for 8-color-grade ones.

If you already have fixtures taht take T12 40 watt bulbs, then get
Philips Ultralume bulbs of the color temperature that you want. They are
also "better triphosphor" with color rendering index in the low 80's and
color distortions mostly in flattering directions.

- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
says...

They need a ballast (big transformer), and a capacitor. They take
thousands of volts to ignite, and thus require special HV socket and
wiring from ballast to socket. The ballast will require cooling (fan of)
it's own.

My 400W MH fixtures don't have fans for cooling, just the back of the
ballast exposed to air. A lot of warehouse and parking-lot lights
use 400W MH without cooling fans.

A good fixture will include tempered glass that absorbs UV, I never
had a problem with fading with my MH living room light, and my
photographic light meter indicated less UV than daylight of the same
intensity. (That's still more UV than you'd get from a fluorescent,
but not a dangerous level.)

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

In article ,
says...

They need a ballast (big transformer), and a capacitor. They take
thousands of volts to ignite, and thus require special HV socket and
wiring from ballast to socket. The ballast will require cooling (fan of)
it's own.

About that part about the especially high voltage:

MH fixtures include the ballast, socket and wiring in between -
problem solved.
Also, the high voltage starting is for the "pulse start" types, which
most 175 and 400 watt MH are not.

Pulse start has an advantage - it allows an arc tube lacking a starting
probe, and a "simpler cleaner" arc tube makes those are slightly more
efficient and have slightly better lumen maintenance - maybe a little
significantly better.
Ones with ceramic arc tubes have better color rendering and those are
pulse start - but I believe are mainly lower wattages.

- Don Klipstein )

Eh...ditch the fluorescents and MH's and get *low* pressure sodium. Not
the pinky yellow of most contemporary streetlights (high pressure sodium),
LP sodium give that nice almost monochromatic yellow which you don't see
much of anymore but used to be used for parking lots and some streets.
IIRC more lumens per Watt than anything.

Ignoramus20878 wrote in
:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:27:51 +0000 (UTC), Don Klipstein
wrote:
In article , Ignoramus4324
wrote:

The questions are, essentially, are they suitable for garage
lighting. Do they emit harmful UV and is their light pleasant for
eyes.

I like them.

UV content is less than that in a similar amount of daylight. Just
don't use them if the outer bulb gets broken - the bulb blocks nasty
shortwave UV and UVB that the arc makes a little bit of.

Use in suitable fully enclosed fixtures rated for use with these
bulbs,
unless the bulb package says that the bulb is suitable for use in
open fixtures. Every few blue moons somewhere a metal halide bulb
that is not of the "protected" type (suitable for use in open
fixtures) explodes.

Thanks. I am very interested in this. I am very tired of working under
less that ideal lighting. Would you say that a 400W bulb provides
"ample" light for a garage? (say 20 x17 feet, drywall) Or would you
say that going higher may be warranted?

i



A single bulb (point source) is going to create a lot of shadows.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Joshua Putnam wrote:

In article ,
says...

They need a ballast (big transformer), and a capacitor. They take
thousands of volts to ignite, and thus require special HV socket and
wiring from ballast to socket. The ballast will require cooling (fan of)
it's own.

My 400W MH fixtures don't have fans for cooling, just the back of the
ballast exposed to air. A lot of warehouse and parking-lot lights
use 400W MH without cooling fans.

The point I'm trying to make is that heat is a problem that needs to be
addressed, and that it will be a problem if you try and build fixtures
in, and not leave them out in the free air.

A small muffin fan is an easy DIY to do cooling, when one doesn't have
ability to design and test a better enclosure.

(Don Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Ignoramus4324 wrote:

The questions are, essentially, are they suitable for garage
lighting. Do they emit harmful UV and is their light pleasant for
eyes.

I like them.

UV content is less than that in a similar amount of daylight. Just
don't use them if the outer bulb gets broken - the bulb blocks nasty
shortwave UV and UVB that the arc makes a little bit of.

MH bulbs give off a lot more UV when the are warming up, I've seen
warnings not to look directly at the bulb when it is warming up.

Given that until it lights up, there isn't anything but an arc inside,
this seems quite wise advice.

In article , ignoramus20878
@NOSPAM.20878.invalid says...

In your living room, which I hope is comparable with my 20x17 ft
garage, just how bright does it become with a 400 W MH light? Are you
somewhat satisfied, fully satisfied, is it bright like a day, etc?

I no longer have that living room, the MH lights I have now are
garage shop lights.

The living room was about 12x24, light intensity wasn't up to summer
daylight but was brighter than mid-winter daylight. (The room
occasionally doubled as a small photo studio, B&W only so I didn't
have to worry about color temperature.)

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

In article ,
says...

MH bulbs give off a lot more UV when the are warming up, I've seen
warnings not to look directly at the bulb when it is warming up.

Given that until it lights up, there isn't anything but an arc inside,
this seems quite wise advice.

Considering how bright they are when they are warmed up, I'd consider
it a good idea for indoor installations to have the bulb where it
can't be seen at all -- facing up to bounce off the ceiling, or else
you have a real glare problem.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

Ignoramus20878 wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:29:47 -0600, John Hines wrote:
Joshua Putnam wrote:

In article ,
says...

They need a ballast (big transformer), and a capacitor. They take
thousands of volts to ignite, and thus require special HV socket and
wiring from ballast to socket. The ballast will require cooling (fan of)
it's own.

My 400W MH fixtures don't have fans for cooling, just the back of the
ballast exposed to air. A lot of warehouse and parking-lot lights
use 400W MH without cooling fans.

The point I'm trying to make is that heat is a problem that needs to be
addressed, and that it will be a problem if you try and build fixtures
in, and not leave them out in the free air.

A small muffin fan is an easy DIY to do cooling, when one doesn't have
ability to design and test a better enclosure.


I have a dozen of 110v muffin fans, all highest quality stuff from
military equipment. Here's how I used one of them:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...-Torch-Cooler/

Using one sounds like a good idea!

Watch out for dust build up.

What do you guys think about this fixtu

This is where I shop
http://www.altgarden.com/site/lights.../ltchoice.html
I got one of the "vertizontal" reflectors. which is 4' in dia, with a
250w MH bulb.

Ignoramus20878 wrote in
:

On 29 Nov 2005 17:27:51 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:


A single bulb (point source) is going to create a lot of shadows.


Would it still apply if the light was directed at the ceiling?

i

Sure,you will still get shadows though.
The worst part will be when your body blocks some of the light,usually
where you need light the most.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

John Hines wrote:
until it lights up, there isn't anything but an arc inside

What's inside *after* it warms up?

In et, Steve Kraus wrote:

Eh...ditch the fluorescents and MH's and get *low* pressure sodium. Not
the pinky yellow of most contemporary streetlights (high pressure sodium),
LP sodium give that nice almost monochromatic yellow which you don't see
much of anymore but used to be used for parking lots and some streets.
IIRC more lumens per Watt than anything.

Is this sarcasm?

Low pressure sodium does indeed achieve more lumens per watt than
anything else, but I would not use it even to illuminate a parking lot.

The monochromatic orange-yellow light turns everything into an
orange-yellow version of black-and-white!

Reds become dark gray or black, except for a few fluorescent reds.
Oranges become gray. Yellows and whites look identical. Greens become
shades of gray. Blues become shades of gray, sometimes black. Purples
become shades of dark gray. (Technically brighter or darker shades of
orange-yellow, but when you are only seeing orange-yellow different shades
start to look like shades of gray.)

Most colored objects appear darker under low pressure sodium than under
other light. Because of this, I would not consider a lumen of low
pressure sodium light to have as much "illuminating power" as a lumen of
another kind of light.

I thought the lowest possible color rendering index was zero until I
heard that low pressure sodium rates a -44.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , Ignoramus20878 wrote:

Thanks. I am very interested in this. I am very tired of working under
less that ideal lighting. Would you say that a 400W bulb provides
"ample" light for a garage? (say 20 x17 feet, drywall) Or would you
say that going higher may be warranted?

Now, I gotta remember how many square feet is usually illuminated by a
quad 4-footer in typical office space... Maybe 96 square feet, maybe even
less.

I do remember calculating that typical lighting levels from overhead
lighting in office space was generally in the range of 110 to 200
footcandles (lumens per square foot). A quad 4-foot fluorescent fixture
typically produces around 11,000 lumens (13,000 lumens for no light losses
with brand=new 40 watt bulbs). One of these per 96 square feet would
achieve about 115 footcandles... Maybe common is a quad 4-foot fixture
per 64 square feet, which would achieve about 170 footcandles.

(Going by lumens per square foot, not actual photometric readings.)

A 400 watt metal halide produces about 40,000 lumens - figure more like
35,000 once the bulb has aged somewhat. 20 by 17 feet is 340 square feet.
Assuming good reflection of light hitting walls and even light
distribution, the illumination level would be on the low end for office
lighting.

What I would be afraid of is that the light would not be distributed
well and would hit many work surfaces at a bad angle. Unless temperatures
are unfavorable for fluorescent, you are probably better with an adequate
number of fluorescents - 12 to 20 4-footers to achieve an illumination
level like that in an office. If you use 400 watt metal halide, 1 may not
do well, you may need two.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , John Hines wrote:
(Don Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Ignoramus4324 wrote:

The questions are, essentially, are they suitable for garage
lighting. Do they emit harmful UV and is their light pleasant for
eyes.

I like them.

UV content is less than that in a similar amount of daylight. Just
don't use them if the outer bulb gets broken - the bulb blocks nasty
shortwave UV and UVB that the arc makes a little bit of.

MH bulbs give off a lot more UV when the are warming up, I've seen
warnings not to look directly at the bulb when it is warming up.

Given that until it lights up, there isn't anything but an arc inside,
this seems quite wise advice.

MH bulbs have UV output maximized when they are most of the way warmed
up, just as they are beginning to shift from mercury color to metal halide
color. UV content is roughly equal to that in an amount of
window-filtered sunlight equal to the fully-warmed-up output of the metal
halide.

- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
says...
In et, Steve Kraus wrote:

Eh...ditch the fluorescents and MH's and get *low* pressure sodium. Not
the pinky yellow of most contemporary streetlights (high pressure sodium),
LP sodium give that nice almost monochromatic yellow which you don't see
much of anymore but used to be used for parking lots and some streets.
IIRC more lumens per Watt than anything.

Is this sarcasm?

Low pressure sodium does indeed achieve more lumens per watt than
anything else, but I would not use it even to illuminate a parking lot.

The monochromatic orange-yellow light turns everything into an
orange-yellow version of black-and-white!
.....
I thought the lowest possible color rendering index was zero until I
heard that low pressure sodium rates a -44.

I don't know the CRI, but I have to agree, it's the worst light I can
imagine for a home or shop. I had a college classroom that was lit
with LP sodium, a horrible idea that was no doubt some sort of energy
conservation experiment. Though, since it was a psych classroom, we
all wondered what the experiment really was....

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

"Cut the Blue wire, not the Red wire"
.. . .

"Oh, Crap".


D