What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level from
"I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely. He
said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to look
at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed to
be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work, and
know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said
he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying he
will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from
"I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He
said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look
at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to
be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and
know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said
he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying
he
will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


It seems the whole small contractor thing , the one man shop,the I'll
be right out guy. Has turned into a business of flakes. If it's a matter of
not wanting to do little jobs, why bother going out to look. Some of those
small jobs are a pain in the ass, bid them to be a pain. They are the kind
of guys that want to work until they get a job.

Doug Kanter wrote:
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level from
"I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely. He
said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to look
at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed to
be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work, and
know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said
he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying he
will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some
extra just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are
going to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will
do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him
through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral
service actually worked well for me. http://www.servicemagic.com/

-B

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

I was in the same boat as you..... I was in the process of building
a bathroom in my basement. I needed a ejector pump, the sewer lines
and hot/ cold copper run. I got a quote from a friends plumber for
1400.00 for the whole job. I jumped on it! This guy promised he'd
show for weeks at a time and nothing. I called other plumbers in to
get estimates, they never showed either. After a week or so, I just
said the hell with this crap, took a
sledge hammer and started the job myself. Needless to say, I did it
all. I even got a few perminant scars (hot solder + skin = OOOOUCH!)
on my
arm for the job. In the mean time I did get a number for a Master
plumper that charges allot of money. At least this guy shows and does
good work. If I have MAJOR problems at least I have someone to call.


Its a rare find to get one of these guys in (and shows) for a decent
price.

I did upgrade my service in my home to 200amp. The electrician was
recommended by a coworker (his brother inlaw)

The guy showed, did a great job and didnt rip me off at all. In my
appreciation I got him a few more jobs (residental and commercial)

Interesting site. I'm in Rochester NY.

"No" wrote in message
...
Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him
through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral
service actually worked well for me. http://www.servicemagic.com/

-B

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

I'd try the "major" part of the work, but it involves removing massive iron
drain pipes from the 1st floor bathroom down to the cellar and replacing
with PVC. I'm really leary of totally disabling the only bathroom in the
house for more than a day, and as we know, EVERYTHING takes more than a day
when you're learning. And, I really don't know my new neighbors well enough
to ask if we can plan on using their bathroom for an entire weekend. I've
done faucets and other lightweight stuff, but this is a whole 'nother thing.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was in the same boat as you..... I was in the process of building
a bathroom in my basement. I needed a ejector pump, the sewer lines
and hot/ cold copper run. I got a quote from a friends plumber for
1400.00 for the whole job. I jumped on it! This guy promised he'd
show for weeks at a time and nothing. I called other plumbers in to
get estimates, they never showed either. After a week or so, I just
said the hell with this crap, took a
sledge hammer and started the job myself. Needless to say, I did it
all. I even got a few perminant scars (hot solder + skin = OOOOUCH!)
on my
arm for the job. In the mean time I did get a number for a Master
plumper that charges allot of money. At least this guy shows and does
good work. If I have MAJOR problems at least I have someone to call.


Its a rare find to get one of these guys in (and shows) for a decent
price.

I did upgrade my service in my home to 200amp. The electrician was
recommended by a coworker (his brother inlaw)

The guy showed, did a great job and didnt rip me off at all. In my
appreciation I got him a few more jobs (residental and commercial)

User Example wrote:

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work.

You just wrote that anyone that comes to your house is going to charge
you too much. What are you suggesting? Bring the bathroom to them?

Nothing like a blanket statement to start off a post. It immediately
let's people know where you stand so they can determine if they want to
keep reading or not.

You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience",

You left out materials. Besides the labor and subs, the other things
are called overhead - the cost of doing business. You left out
insurance, licensing, vehicles and other equipment, etc., etc.

and some
extra just to rip you off.

I'm not sure if you're talking about profit, contingency amounts or
gouging. Of course it could just be that whatever amount they charged
would be too much for you.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is
not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the
quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of
work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds
or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either
your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work
being done.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are
going to have to do it yourself.

My time is worth more than your average tradesman's hourly rate. If
you consider your own time to have no value, then you're right, doing
your own work will be a modest price. This is the standard
self-deluding position of most people that crow about their savings
doing their own work. If you factor in the time it takes them to do
the work, multiply that by how much they earn at their regular job and
add that to the project cost, there is rarely a savings. Unless the
person earns very little to start with.

You can find people to hire that will
do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

Finishing off your post with another obviously fallacious blanket
statement always helps people classify your position.

thanks

R

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work.


You just wrote that anyone that comes to your house is going to charge
you too much. What are you suggesting? Bring the bathroom to them?

Nothing like a blanket statement to start off a post. It immediately
let's people know where you stand so they can determine if they want to
keep reading or not.

Well, it looks like you determined that you want to read it. Matter of
fact, you even took time to critique everything I said.


You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience",


You left out materials. Besides the labor and subs, the other things
are called overhead - the cost of doing business. You left out
insurance, licensing, vehicles and other equipment, etc., etc.

Yes, that is my point exactly... stuff that as a DIYer you don't have to
pay for.


and some
extra just to rip you off.


I'm not sure if you're talking about profit, contingency amounts or
gouging. Of course it could just be that whatever amount they charged
would be too much for you.


When you figure out the cost of time and materials and compare that to
what they charge you, there will always be a big gap. Where does that
money go? It certainly isn't going to the work they do on your house
and that is a rip off.



Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.


Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is
not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the
quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of
work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds
or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either
your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work
being done.

I have had some good work done and some bad work done. In general, high
skilled work like A/C work gets done well. Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par. But in the end, it's a gamble
and usually never perfect. And perfection is what I expect when I am
paying for it.



Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are
going to have to do it yourself.


My time is worth more than your average tradesman's hourly rate. If
you consider your own time to have no value, then you're right, doing
your own work will be a modest price. This is the standard
self-deluding position of most people that crow about their savings
doing their own work. If you factor in the time it takes them to do
the work, multiply that by how much they earn at their regular job and
add that to the project cost, there is rarely a savings. Unless the
person earns very little to start with.


Well, I wasn't implying that you should do the job during your working
hours. If you do it during that time when you are usually jerking off
or wasting time analyzing peoples USENET posts then I am not so sure
your time is worth more... but then again, maybe you value that jerking
time.


You can find people to hire that will
do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.


Finishing off your post with another obviously fallacious blanket
statement always helps people classify your position

Call it what you want but it is generally true. I don't have time to
quantify every statement and place disclaimers on everything I say.
Maybe you do, or is your time too valuable?

"Red Cloud©" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:49:27 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

I'd try the "major" part of the work, but it involves removing massive
iron
drain pipes from the 1st floor bathroom down to the cellar and replacing
with PVC. I'm really leary of totally disabling the only bathroom in the
house for more than a day, and as we know, EVERYTHING takes more than a
day
when you're learning. And, I really don't know my new neighbors well
enough
to ask if we can plan on using their bathroom for an entire weekend. I've
done faucets and other lightweight stuff, but this is a whole 'nother
thing.


You can buy a porta-pottie for about $50-$75 that will get you through
the project.

http://www.sealandsanitation.com/portable_toilets.htm

The larger model will be closer to normal toilet height, and won't
have to be emptied as often. You can buy thes online or at any RV or
Marine Supply store, such as West Marine, or BoatUS.

For that matter, if you will be saving a grand or two by doing this
yourself, you can get a motel room for a few nights. You don't even
have to sleep there - just use it as a remote bathroom for showers and
such.

rusty redcloud



wrote in message
groups.com...
I was in the same boat as you..... I was in the process of building
a bathroom in my basement. I needed a ejector pump, the sewer lines
and hot/ cold copper run. I got a quote from a friends plumber for
1400.00 for the whole job. I jumped on it! This guy promised he'd
show for weeks at a time and nothing. I called other plumbers in to
get estimates, they never showed either. After a week or so, I just
said the hell with this crap, took a
sledge hammer and started the job myself. Needless to say, I did it
all. I even got a few perminant scars (hot solder + skin = OOOOUCH!)
on my
arm for the job. In the mean time I did get a number for a Master
plumper that charges allot of money. At least this guy shows and does
good work. If I have MAJOR problems at least I have someone to call.


Its a rare find to get one of these guys in (and shows) for a decent
price.

I did upgrade my service in my home to 200amp. The electrician was
recommended by a coworker (his brother inlaw)

The guy showed, did a great job and didnt rip me off at all. In my
appreciation I got him a few more jobs (residental and commercial)




Can I bring a hooker? :-)

"Doug Kanter" writes:

Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Seems so. I can count the number of trades folk that had any customer
service clue whatsoever on one hand.

The first plumber gave you the "I feel pretty overwhelmed, go away or
make it worth my while" quote it seems.

If somehow you can root out someone who takes side jobs, that might be
the way to go, but that can be hard without having a buddy in the
trades.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

"User Example" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some extra
just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going
to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do
excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

That's a whole lot of generalizations. What stands out the most is that you
seem to be saying the plumber's got no business making money. And, it's
obvious that his fees include whatever overhead he has to deal with. What
business hasn't got overhead? What's important to me is that someone state
their fees clearly, and from that point on, it's up to me to decide what's
worthwhile. In this case, I know there's a decent plumber (somewhere) who
can do the work in X number of hours, and when it's done, I won't need to
think about it. My roof's another story. That's something I'll probably
replace myself, since I've done it successfully on a previous house.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going
to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do
excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.


That's a whole lot of generalizations. What stands out the most is that you
seem to be saying the plumber's got no business making money. And, it's
obvious that his fees include whatever overhead he has to deal with. What
business hasn't got overhead? What's important to me is that someone state
their fees clearly, and from that point on, it's up to me to decide what's
worthwhile. In this case, I know there's a decent plumber (somewhere) who
can do the work in X number of hours, and when it's done, I won't need to
think about it. My roof's another story. That's something I'll probably
replace myself, since I've done it successfully on a previous house.


Plumbers have a right to make money and people have the right to give it
to them. I on the other hand will do that stuff myself and use the
saved money to buy fun things like vacations or put it away for
retirement.

My father did everything himself and although he made much less than
everyone in our neighborhood, we always had a nicer home and had
everything we needed. When something broke at night or on the weekend
he was able to fix it instead of suffering through until a repairman
could come. If we had a flat tire, he'd change the tire, instead of
spraying a can of fix a flat into it.

I guess there are two types of people. People that will spend money and
people that won't. I grew up learning to save money and only hire
people to do work that I can't do myself. I see more and more people
out there who can't even replace a burnt out light bulb in their car or
replace a bathroom faucet.

Oh well, do what you want. I hope you have a good time at the office
while I am on vacation.

In article , Doug Kanter says...


"User Example" wrote in message
m...
Doug Kanter wrote:
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some extra
just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going
to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do
excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

That's a whole lot of generalizations. What stands out the most is that you
seem to be saying the plumber's got no business making money. And, it's
obvious that his fees include whatever overhead he has to deal with. What
business hasn't got overhead? What's important to me is that someone state
their fees clearly, and from that point on, it's up to me to decide what's
worthwhile. In this case, I know there's a decent plumber (somewhere) who
can do the work in X number of hours, and when it's done, I won't need to
think about it. My roof's another story. That's something I'll probably
replace myself, since I've done it successfully on a previous house.



It strikes me that if you:

1. Have a lot of time
2. Have the skills
3. Either enjoy it (lots of people do, bless them) or have no competing spare
time interests

or alternatively:

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

...what he says makes sense (except the thing about seemingly objecting to
contractors making a living....)

But I

1. Don't have a lot of time
2. Dont' have many skills (great painting skills) and don't particularly care
for every project being a learning experience and my house being my guinea pig
3. Sure have a long list of stuff I love to do in my spare time otherwise

and

a. Am not stupid-cheap.

So I have in the 11 years I've lived in this house built up a good list of good
skilled folks. And a pretty good knack for discerning who's good and who's not
and getting good value.

Banty

Banty wrote:

It strikes me that if you:

1. Have a lot of time
2. Have the skills
3. Either enjoy it (lots of people do, bless them) or have no competing spare
time interests

or alternatively:

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

..what he says makes sense (except the thing about seemingly objecting to
contractors making a living....)

But I

1. Don't have a lot of time
2. Dont' have many skills (great painting skills) and don't particularly care
for every project being a learning experience and my house being my guinea pig
3. Sure have a long list of stuff I love to do in my spare time otherwise

and

a. Am not stupid-cheap.

So I have in the 11 years I've lived in this house built up a good list of good
skilled folks. And a pretty good knack for discerning who's good and who's not
and getting good value.

Well said.

R

"Banty" wrote in message
...

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

My mother in law! If she needed an ambulance, she wouldn't call one unless
she had a coupon. Her frugality was good at times, but not at others, and
she didn't have the skills to know the difference. So....she did all her
laundry with cold water and powdered detergent, with old iron pipes. They
ended up so clogged that they couldn't be cleared. Overflowed, ruined all
the basement carpet. Called a "handyman" to replace the pipes, because he
was cheaper than a plumber. $2000 later....no need to finish the story. So
much for saving money.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

I can get my plumber in an hour if it is an emergency, but routine work is
booked for months. He'll put us ahead of others at times but it can still
be a few weeks. He won't even take calls from potential new customers.

I gave the electrician the "go-ahead" on a job two weeks ago and he just
started today. Probably a three day job for him.

My HVAC guy took three weeks to quote a $7,000 job and it will be another
few before he can get started And this is because he gives us some
priority as we store his boat for the winter in one of our warehouses for
free.

Good tradesmen are in demand and can make a good living. Anyone with the
sills can have a good career with work for life.
Ed

"Doug Kanter" writes:
I'd try the "major" part of the work, but it involves removing massive iron
[...]
I'm really leary of totally disabling the only bathroom in the house
for more than a day, and as we know, EVERYTHING takes more than a day

Couple solutions:
Get an "elderly user" portable toilet. It's like a cross between a
walker and a toilet. essentially a toilet seat with a support frame
surround and a bucket which can be removed when in need of emptying.
(Used essentially the same way as a chamber pot when they can't get
from the bed to toilet quickly)

Or, you could take a hint from your cat.
Get a contractor bucket, and a bag of kitty litter. Use the bucket as
needed, and cover with kitty litter. If your squeamish, throw the
whole thing out when you are finished with the job.

Or, Make everyone use it before the iron is removed, and plan on going
out for lunch/dinner.

I'd try to arrange for liquids to be bottled and/or disposed of
outside. (if you have a drain in the basment floor connected to the
sewage system, you could empty things there if outside isn't private
enough.) (Don't empty the kitty litter into the sewage)

Just a few thoughts.

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote Re Secret password for hiring a
plumber?:

Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Yes. Avoid them if possible. They obviously don't want you business.
Ask your neighbors for referrals to competent "handy man" type people.
Alternatively, look in the classifieds. If you have to get a
"stranger" start him with your smallest job first. See how that goes
make a decision based on that.
--
To email me directly, remove CLUTTER.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:

Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.

On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...


--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

My HVAC guy took three weeks to quote a $7,000 job and it will be another
few before he can get started And this is because he gives us some
priority as we store his boat for the winter in one of our warehouses for
free.

Next spring when he's asking for his boat, you should take three weeks
to move the equipment that's blocking it. Might send a hint.

R

John Willis wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:


Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.


On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...

I guess you people are freaking idiots then if you can't fix anything
yourself and you consider the dumb ass migrant works who paint your
house to be skilled labor. I guess maybe I am just smarter than all of
you because you sound like a bunch of whiners that can't do anything
right on your own. I'd think that in a alt.home.repair newsgroup I
would find people that are actually quite handy but I guess I was wrong.
Unbelievable.

In article , Doug Kanter says...

"Banty" wrote in message
...

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

My mother in law! If she needed an ambulance, she wouldn't call one unless
she had a coupon. Her frugality was good at times, but not at others, and
she didn't have the skills to know the difference. So....she did all her
laundry with cold water and powdered detergent, with old iron pipes. They
ended up so clogged that they couldn't be cleared. Overflowed, ruined all
the basement carpet. Called a "handyman" to replace the pipes, because he
was cheaper than a plumber. $2000 later....no need to finish the story. So
much for saving money.

Yep.

And could you ever convince her that the problem was that she was being
stupid-cheap to begin with?

....I'm placing my bet..

Banty

User Example wrote:

I guess you people are freaking idiots then if you can't fix anything
yourself and you consider the dumb ass migrant works who paint your
house to be skilled labor.

"dumb ass migrant works"...? Let's see...dumbass is one word; they're
not migrant, they're immigrants; and they're workers. Works is the
equipment you apparently shoot up with.

I guess maybe I am just smarter than all of
you because you sound like a bunch of whiners that can't do anything
right on your own.

You must have meant that you're smarter than all of us _put together_.
That's the usual bleating cry of the self-absorbed.

I'd think that in a alt.home.repair newsgroup I
would find people that are actually quite handy but I guess I was wrong.
Unbelievable.

You're obviously incapable of evaluating the value of the work itself,
why am I not surprised that you are incapable of evaluating the value
of differing opinions? When someone points out your myopia, you call
them blind.

Maybe you should post a question and see if you can separate the wheat
from the chaff. Unless, of course, you came here with all of the
answers and don't need to ask questions. In that case, feel free to
start a new newsgroup. I believe alt.it's.mine.mine.mine is available.

R

"John Willis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:

Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.

On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

It's not like there's a diploma for being a carpenter. A guy decides one
day to put an ad in the yellow pages and volia!, he's a carpenter.


As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

We had some immigrant spend three days trying to finish some small area of
drywall. Everytime he left big grooves and it looked like ****. The
painter who said he was a good guy, hoad to go out and get another good guy
to fix it.


I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...

And what makes some schmo on the street to be a carpenter? An ad.



--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

In article , User Example
says...

John Willis wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:


Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.


On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...

I guess you people are freaking idiots then if you can't fix anything
yourself and you consider the dumb ass migrant works who paint your
house to be skilled labor. I guess maybe I am just smarter than all of
you because you sound like a bunch of whiners that can't do anything
right on your own. I'd think that in a alt.home.repair newsgroup I
would find people that are actually quite handy but I guess I was wrong.
Unbelievable.

Charming.

Do you need to do this to feel good about yourself? Mebbe after seeing the same
color latex slathered all over your house, ceiling, walls, and moulding? Or
something like that?

If you're so super-skilled (or, alternatively, your family has acquiesced to
amateurish repairs and work), great. You're set.

So - here's the question - why are you here berating everyone? What are you
getting out of it?? You shoudln't have enough time, what with planning your
vacations and all...

My theory - the one who has the skills to DIY *well*, is just the guy or gal to
appreciate a good professional job. But he does it himself, for the reasons I
listed in my other post, like, he likes to do it. And knows the effort and
planning and problem-solving that goes into it. Painting's my thing.
Tradespeople I know who see my house assume it's been done professionally; and I
do it for friends. But there's still been a job or too I hired out. Why?
Because I appreciate the time and skill it takes to do it right, and I didn't
have time for doing it right.

Based on my theory, a guy who lambasts everyone who *doesn't* DIY and people in
the trades, would have as characteristics, by comparison....
...the rest to be left as an exercise for the reader.

Cheers,
Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Doug Kanter says...

"Banty" wrote in message
...

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

My mother in law! If she needed an ambulance, she wouldn't call one unless
she had a coupon. Her frugality was good at times, but not at others, and
she didn't have the skills to know the difference. So....she did all her
laundry with cold water and powdered detergent, with old iron pipes. They
ended up so clogged that they couldn't be cleared. Overflowed, ruined all
the basement carpet. Called a "handyman" to replace the pipes, because he
was cheaper than a plumber. $2000 later....no need to finish the story. So
much for saving money.

Yep.

And could you ever convince her that the problem was that she was being
stupid-cheap to begin with?

...I'm placing my bet..

Banty


You won. That's exactly what she said. :-)

This woman was the queen of cheap. At one point, her ancient gas oven would
no longer light - it required a match. Because it was so old, she decided it
was silly to put any money into fixing it. The result was that every so
often, we'd go to her house and notice that her hair was singed. She was
sticking her head halfway into the oven to light it because she ran out of
the long wooden fireplace matches (which were a lousy idea to begin with, in
terms of safety). I finally convinced her that the gas company would look at
it for free (yippeee!!!), and behind the scenes, arranged for them to tell
her it was illegal to operate the range any more. In fact, they said I
wasn't too far from correct. They disconnected it and put an official
looking seal over the pipe. :-) It took a week of cold meals for her to
agree to be taken to buy a new stove. Unbelievable.

That's the LEAST outrageous of the stories I could tell you. :-)

"Doug Kanter" writes:
That's the LEAST outrageous of the stories I could tell you. :-)

Please share some of the more outrageous onew with us too

"No" wrote in message
...
Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him
through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral
service actually worked well for me. http://www.servicemagic.com/


Not me, I will not list my business on SM. Why? They would send me an
email with the job spec _as written by the homeowner_. I'd accept the job
and pay SM the $10 they wanted. I'd call the customer and go actually look
at the job. What they wrote and what they needed was no where near the
same. I'd bid the job and not get it. I've found out since then mostly
drunks and losers list with SM...




-B

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said
his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because
you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as
likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what
needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

"FDR" wrote in message
...


And what makes some schmo on the street to be a carpenter? An ad.

All of them?

Apparently, you've never seen any intricate finish work. I've seen some do
work that would make your jaw drop, and in some cases using an assortment of
hand saws. Absolute magic.

"RicodJour" writes:
User Example wrote:
Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is
not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the
quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of
work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds
or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either
your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work
being done.


I agree with much of the (deleted) rest of your post, but take issue
with some of your points here regarding the quality of DIY
vs. professional work.

If you are a perfectionist and reasonably handy, then on many basic
carpentry, electrical and plumbing type projects you can do a higher
quality job than a professional if you do your research and are
willing to take a lot longer. As you state, you may save out-of-pocket
costs but you will almost definitely take longer and the true savings
depends on what value you assign to your non-business hours time.

Professionals are not being paid enough for perfectionism nor do they
usually bring that level of commitment to the job. I find that the
"skill" in "skilled labor" has more to do with the efficiency of their
labor than with the quality of the final result. Of course, if you are
willing to pay unlimited sums for a job then you can mandate
perfectionism though even this is not necessarily true.

For example, my mom is a perfectionist and goes with the highest
quality/highest cost contractors yet is repeatedly frustrated with the
lack of skill and attention to detail -- unfortunately, even the best
contractors often bring in subs and unskilled labor that don't
justify the premium they demand. She is now in the process of builing
a standalone 1-story, 1-car garage for which she is paying $100K+ yet
the carpenter brought in by the contractor has made countless
mistakes, disregarding clearly speced architectual plans.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" writes:
That's the LEAST outrageous of the stories I could tell you. :-)

Please share some of the more outrageous onew with us too

Let's see.....there was the electric can opener, reminiscent of something
out of an M.C. Escher painting. She once left it on a stove burner and
melted it in such a way that it leaned forward at about a 20 degree angle.
Since it was originally tall enough to open a 46 oz juice can, you could
still get a 16 oz can under it, even with the tilt. But, the magnet would no
longer hold the can in place at that angle, so you had to palm the can from
beneath while it was opened. Of course, this meant that whatever was in the
can ended up all over your hand and the counter. Her only other options were
3 or 4 of those little openers intended for campers who are gluttons for
punishment. We bought her a nice new electric opener which she refused to
even take out of the box. "That old one's just fine, thank you." Then, she'd
go for the bug spray and hose down the gap between the stove and the
counter, where the effluent from tilted cans spilled and attracted every ant
in the neighborhood.

New phone: She had an ancient rotary phone. It took almost a minute to dial
anyone. Since she never opened the windows in the kitchen, the phone was
encrusted with years' worth of grease and crud, which made the dialer thing
sluggish. We figured that if she ever needed to dial 911, she'd be dead
before she got past 9. So, in went a touch tone phone with big buttons. The
first objection was that she didn't want to pay for touch tone service. Once
we explained that the phone didn't require it, she decided it was still too
fancy for her, and refused to make or receive calls until the phone was
removed. That took 2 weeks, and it was paid for with OUR money. :-)

Free Government Food: She thought it was frugal to get on some sort of
program which offered free "staple" food items to people in need, which she
was not. Things like canned pork, with white labels that just said "Pork",
and "USDA - Don't Call Us If You Don't Like This Stuff". She'd come home
from wherever and usually put away the 5 lb brick of American cheese.
Usually. Not always. Twice, we found shopping bags in the basement with
cheese that had turned green and expanded to the point where it blew open
the thick plastic wrapper. Sometimes, bags of rice crawling with maggots. We
have no idea what the "pork" was, although dog food comes to mind.

Time to mow the lawn.

"blueman" wrote in message
...


Professionals are not being paid enough for perfectionism nor do they
usually bring that level of commitment to the job. I find that the
"skill" in "skilled labor" has more to do with the efficiency of their
labor than with the quality of the final result. Of course, if you are
willing to pay unlimited sums for a job then you can mandate
perfectionism though even this is not necessarily true.

And then, the problem is that you never know. It can be a crap shoot. As my
current experience indicates, you can't always find a referral. I don't have
a million friends, and of the dozen I've asked, nobody has needed a plumber
in recent memory. But, years ago, we got very lucky when we needed to have a
couple of ceilings sheetrocked. We'd found lead paint, and after collecting
advice from 200 million sources, we decided the best way to deal with the
badly cracked plaster ceiling was to enclose it, after installing some
recessed lights. A friend recommended a guy whose work was described as
"holy ****....amazing". He took forever to show up, wanted about 30% more
than other estimates, but the ceilings looked like they'd poured into an
upside down room. I walked in during the installation and found the guy had
a half dozen little bubble levels suspended from strings somehow. I just
shook my head and said "Yeah...OK". Perfect. We were happy.

I'd be surprised if I could find someone like that again. Or, maybe I might.
Who knows?

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:54:31 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:

I guess you people are freaking idiots then if you can't fix anything
yourself and you consider the dumb ass migrant works who paint your
house to be skilled labor. I guess maybe I am just smarter than all of
you because you sound like a bunch of whiners that can't do anything
right on your own. I'd think that in a alt.home.repair newsgroup I
would find people that are actually quite handy but I guess I was wrong.
Unbelievable.

I respectfully submit that you are the one providing the above
description of "skilled" labor. I've seen the results of the labor you
describe, and it isn't skilled. I've taken some of those immigrants
and trained them to be skilled labor. Let me assure you their rate of
pay went up as their training and experience suggested.

Anyone can swing a hammer. It takes skill and care to properly design,
create a materials list, build, and finish even a relatively simple
book shelf. I build my own. If I were to do it for others on a paid
basis, most would choke on how much money it would require. After all
Ikea is cheap. It is cheap for a reason.

If you are relatively good at carpentry, plumbing, electrical,
drywall, painting, concrete work, and all manner of other skills that
go into the building and maintaining of a home, I commend you. Most
homeowners are completely unqualified when it comes to diagnosing and
curing most of even the minor ills they will be faced with as
homeowners. Hence the high demand for qualified, experienced trades
people like plumbers, electricians, etc., etc., etc.

Here's a hint: When you find a good plumber who doesn't think
possession of a plumbing license is also a license to steal, keep him
(or her) happy. They are few and far between. Personally, I've known
one. He is now retired. And he was an immigrant...


--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

Charming.

Do you need to do this to feel good about yourself? Mebbe after seeing the same
color latex slathered all over your house, ceiling, walls, and moulding? Or
something like that?

If you're so super-skilled (or, alternatively, your family has acquiesced to
amateurish repairs and work), great. You're set.

So - here's the question - why are you here berating everyone? What are you
getting out of it?? You shoudln't have enough time, what with planning your
vacations and all...

My theory - the one who has the skills to DIY *well*, is just the guy or gal to
appreciate a good professional job. But he does it himself, for the reasons I
listed in my other post, like, he likes to do it. And knows the effort and
planning and problem-solving that goes into it. Painting's my thing.
Tradespeople I know who see my house assume it's been done professionally; and I
do it for friends. But there's still been a job or too I hired out. Why?
Because I appreciate the time and skill it takes to do it right, and I didn't
have time for doing it right.

Based on my theory, a guy who lambasts everyone who *doesn't* DIY and people in
the trades, would have as characteristics, by comparison....
..the rest to be left as an exercise for the reader.

Cheers,
Banty


All I am saying is that you will generally pay too much for someone else
to do the job for you because you pay for everyone from the low paid
laborer to the secretary, all the supplies, all the petty licenses,
insurance, "extra costs just so the head guy can sip cock tails",
"experience costs", etc. Call someone to do some work and you are
helping to put someones kid through college. It's all business and
there is nothing wrong with it if that's what you want to do. All I am
saying is that you can do a lot of that work yourself and you can
probably do it as well or better if you research and plan accordingly.
For some people this is easy to do. For some it is hard. If it is
hard, then I guess you just have to pay someone to do it. That's tough.
But if you are at all handy you can figure out most of the stuff if you
want. Sure, there are times it's easier to just hire someone, and
sometimes I do. But that is not what I was getting at. What I was
bitching and moaning about is when someone needs to replace a sink
faucet or something else and people on here tell them to hire a good
plumber to do it. Well, you don't need a plumber to replace a faucet
unless you are an idiot. You can take the $100 you saved an go out to
dinner and a movie and whatever. That's just being smart. It takes
less time to do it yourself than to hire someone then wait for them to
come while you have to take off work and then call them back because
they put it on crooked or whatever. I am berating those that choose to
hire someone. I am berating the people on here that imply that it can't
be done yourself if you just take the time to try. But screw it, I am
done trying to convince people they can save money if they want. Let
them waste it along with the money they throw away on gas in their Ford
Expedition.

"User Example" wrote in message
...


All I am saying is that you will generally pay too much for someone else
to do the job for you because you pay for everyone from the low paid
laborer to the secretary, all the supplies, all the petty licenses,
insurance, "extra costs just so the head guy can sip cock tails",
"experience costs", etc. Call someone to do some work and you are helping
to put someones kid through college.

I'm curious now. What kind of work do you do?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"FDR" wrote in message
...


And what makes some schmo on the street to be a carpenter? An ad.

All of them?

Apparently, you've never seen any intricate finish work. I've seen some do
work that would make your jaw drop, and in some cases using an assortment
of hand saws. Absolute magic.

Oh, we found a guy that's the real deal. He's made cabinets and a bench and
table for us that's been great. But to just say that anybody that says they
are a carpenter is talented and qualified is silly.

All I am saying is that you will generally pay too much for someone else
to do the job for you because you pay for everyone from the low paid
laborer to the secretary, all the supplies, all the petty licenses,
insurance, "extra costs just so the head guy can sip cock tails",
"experience costs", etc. Call someone to do some work and you are helping
to put someones kid through college.


I'm curious now. What kind of work do you do?



Software Engineer now. Before that, Electronics Technician and Nuclear
Power Plant operator. But I didn't learn how to fix things around the
house by doing any of that.

"User Example" wrote in message

Software Engineer now. Before that, Electronics Technician and Nuclear
Power Plant operator. But I didn't learn how to fix things around the
house by doing any of that.

Did your employers pay you enough to put your kids through college? That
would be foolish of them.

In article , User Example says...

Charming.

Do you need to do this to feel good about yourself? Mebbe after seeing the same
color latex slathered all over your house, ceiling, walls, and moulding? Or
something like that?

If you're so super-skilled (or, alternatively, your family has acquiesced to
amateurish repairs and work), great. You're set.

So - here's the question - why are you here berating everyone? What are you
getting out of it?? You shoudln't have enough time, what with planning your
vacations and all...

My theory - the one who has the skills to DIY *well*, is just the guy or gal to
appreciate a good professional job. But he does it himself, for the reasons I
listed in my other post, like, he likes to do it. And knows the effort and
planning and problem-solving that goes into it. Painting's my thing.
Tradespeople I know who see my house assume it's been done professionally; and I
do it for friends. But there's still been a job or too I hired out. Why?
Because I appreciate the time and skill it takes to do it right, and I didn't
have time for doing it right.

Based on my theory, a guy who lambasts everyone who *doesn't* DIY and people in
the trades, would have as characteristics, by comparison....
..the rest to be left as an exercise for the reader.

Cheers,
Banty


All I am saying is that you will generally pay too much for someone else
to do the job for you because you pay for everyone from the low paid
laborer to the secretary, all the supplies, all the petty licenses,
insurance, "extra costs just so the head guy can sip cock tails",
"experience costs", etc. Call someone to do some work and you are
helping to put someones kid through college. It's all business and
there is nothing wrong with it if that's what you want to do. All I am
saying is that you can do a lot of that work yourself and you can
probably do it as well or better if you research and plan accordingly.
For some people this is easy to do. For some it is hard. If it is
hard, then I guess you just have to pay someone to do it. That's tough.
But if you are at all handy you can figure out most of the stuff if you
want. Sure, there are times it's easier to just hire someone, and
sometimes I do. But that is not what I was getting at. What I was
bitching and moaning about is when someone needs to replace a sink
faucet or something else and people on here tell them to hire a good
plumber to do it. Well, you don't need a plumber to replace a faucet
unless you are an idiot. You can take the $100 you saved an go out to
dinner and a movie and whatever. That's just being smart. It takes
less time to do it yourself than to hire someone then wait for them to
come while you have to take off work and then call them back because
they put it on crooked or whatever. I am berating those that choose to
hire someone. I am berating the people on here that imply that it can't
be done yourself if you just take the time to try. But screw it, I am
done trying to convince people they can save money if they want. Let
them waste it along with the money they throw away on gas in their Ford
Expedition.

OK now you're being more reasonable.

So, I say - sure, I agree with what you're saying! I'd wager most folks do as
far as this - it's simple really, because you're substituting your own labor for
paid labor. I think just about everyone here knows that they can save money by
substituting their own labor for it.

But, then, it comes right down to what value one puts on one's own time.
Especially considering that, when *I* do, say, a simple plumbing repair, I'll be
spending a morning stumbling through it (BTDT), while a pro would stroll in and
do it in 15 min. Now for a small plumbing job, the overhead they'd charge still
makes that reasonable.

But for my upcoming kitchen remod? No way Jose, a pro will be doing that.

The painting/staining followup to that? That will be me
The wallpapering? When I grow a third arm, I'll be taking that over from the
pros.. (I've gotten a friend to help me - warning! - friends dont' always have
the standards a person has.)

But here's the other reason I go with a pro when I go with a pro - EXPERIENCE.
An experienced contractor has seen hundreds of jobs, can look at my job and
anticipate the problems (I'll be knocking out what used to be an exterior wall
for this kitchen remod, fer instance, don't want house to go splat...), KNOWS
the tools, HAS the tools, KNOWS the materials, and has the experience and knack
to go through the work smoothly. While I go and make my living in the meantime.

See - about your time - have you considered that that time is time that you
might be spending with family and friends? Or getting a notch or two further up
your career ladder? I'm not saying what you're doing is a bad use of your time
- I don't know the particulars and, like I said in another post, that you get a
lot of satisfaction (evidently) and probably ENJOY doing the DIY counts in the
plus-column for you. But it's not so simple as how you present it - how you
present it is basically, you're putting ZERO value on your time. Then, berating
US for puttng an actual $$$ value on our time.

THe other thing is - you seem to go far beyond just pointing out that
contractors are making a living doing what they do (living, yes, means colleges
for their kids and Expeditions should they choose). You seem to resent them for
it. To me, it's a duh - OF COURSE they're putting their kids through college
and having their friends over for a few drinks with the money I pay them. My
firm has been doing the same for me for 28 years! Jees.


Banty