User Example wrote:

All I am saying is that you will generally pay too much for someone else
to do the job for you because you pay for everyone from the low paid
laborer to the secretary, all the supplies, all the petty licenses,
insurance, "extra costs just so the head guy can sip cock tails",
"experience costs", etc. Call someone to do some work and you are helping
to put someones kid through college.


I'm curious now. What kind of work do you do?



Software Engineer now. Before that, Electronics Technician and Nuclear
Power Plant operator. But I didn't learn how to fix things around the
house by doing any of that.

So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with.

Right! NOW I get it...

THe other thing is - you seem to go far beyond just pointing out that
contractors are making a living doing what they do (living, yes, means colleges
for their kids and Expeditions should they choose). You seem to resent them for
it. To me, it's a duh - OF COURSE they're putting their kids through college
and having their friends over for a few drinks with the money I pay them. My
firm has been doing the same for me for 28 years! Jees.


No, what I resent is when they charge 3 or 4 times what it costs to
actually do the job, and that is including paying the labor and the
materials. That's just downright ridiculous. I'm happy to pay them for
their time and the materials they use. But at the rate a lot of them
charge, you are paying a day or two of work to people who don't even go
out to your job site. That just doesn't seem right to me.

I don't mind paying a high price for some work if it is done to
perfection but so far just about all the work I have hired out has been
full of mistakes or ugly work. For instance, I had my chimney resided
because it is too high for me to do. Well, they left Tyvec hanging out
from under the siding boards... the painters just painted over the
Tyvec. The caulk had all kinds of gaps in it. And I paid a lot for the
job because I expected they would do good work.

Until the quality of work goes up I will complain about it.

So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with.

Right! NOW I get it...

That's not the same. They are paying for a product and they are have to
pay for R&D. That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether it is
software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining about the
price of building supplies, now.

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal. So, I expect the same when some
workers come to my house to do work. I don't see the justice in paying
mexican's $150/hr to paint my house, which is about what it works out to
when you do the math.

User Example wrote:
The other thing is - you seem to go far beyond just pointing out that
contractors are making a living doing what they do (living, yes, means colleges
for their kids and Expeditions should they choose). You seem to resent them for
it. To me, it's a duh - OF COURSE they're putting their kids through college
and having their friends over for a few drinks with the money I pay them. My
firm has been doing the same for me for 28 years! Jees.

I've noticed that there is a direct correlation between a poster that
cuts out the identitifying information of the post that they're
responding to and an ego problem. It's also discourteous.

No, what I resent is when they charge 3 or 4 times what it costs to
actually do the job, and that is including paying the labor and the
materials. That's just downright ridiculous. I'm happy to pay them for
their time and the materials they use. But at the rate a lot of them
charge, you are paying a day or two of work to people who don't even go
out to your job site. That just doesn't seem right to me.

resent, ridiculous, doesn't seem right...
You're on a mission, aren't you? To fight the wrongs of the world.
Unfortunately one of the wrongs you're fighting is a pretty standard
state of affairs. Google keystoning and pricing. For smaller projects
tripling the direct construction cost is standard operating procedure.
If a contractor doesn't do that, they're cutting corners somewhere and
won't be in business for very long. You don't have to like it. You
don't even have to participate.

Those vegetables and fruit you have on the table are grown in your
garden because their free, right? A sewing machine is really cheap.
You must sew your own clothes. Big savings right there. Obviously you
draw the line somewhere...unless you're living in a shack in Montana
and writing diatribes against the unfairness of the world.

I don't mind paying a high price for some work if it is done to
perfection but so far just about all the work I have hired out has been
full of mistakes or ugly work. For instance, I had my chimney resided
because it is too high for me to do. Well, they left Tyvec hanging out
from under the siding boards... the painters just painted over the
Tyvec. The caulk had all kinds of gaps in it. And I paid a lot for the
job because I expected they would do good work.

Done to perfection? What is this, a steak? You may feel you're paying
for perfection, but you obviously aren't. "I expected they would do
good work" is a rallying cry for the clueless. Your "expectations"
don't matter. You need a written contract with everything spelled out.
You also obviously don't know how to vet and hire a contractor. Your
inability is the cause of your dissatisfaction.

The people you would want to hire probably wouldn't want to work for
you. I can feel the mistrust and unrealistic expectations coming off
of you in waves. I can only imagine what a contractor would feel
talking to you face to face.

Until the quality of work goes up I will complain about it.

Until you learn a new skill or two (people skills and how to deal with
contractors) you will continue to complain. It is your right to
complain. Just don't expect everyone to agree with your way of doing
things.

If I seem hard on you it's because you are totally out of line with
your viewpoint...let me correct that - you're totally out of line with
trying to foist your viewpoint on others. In your own words you berate
people who don't do things themselves. What's that to you? If you had
said that you feel sorry for people who don't do things for themselves
because they won't know the satisfaction of fixing something, that
would be one thing. Instead you write things like, "Well, you don't
need a plumber to replace a faucet unless you are an idiot. You can
take the $100 you saved an(d) go out to dinner and a movie and
whatever. That's just being smart."

That's your definition of being smart. My brother-in-law picks up the
phone for everything. His best tool is one of those little toy hammers
that has the screwdriver set nested in the handle. Of course he's not
in your situation. He's a real estate developer in NYC. He also knows
how to talk to people and knows how to hire a contractor. I don't see
anything wrong with the choices he's making for himself.

In another post you mentioned you're a software engineer and worked in
the nuclear industry. Both are highly technical and there's a definite
way to do things. Anything else is _wrong_. Garbage in, garbage out,
right? You're input in this instance is garbage in. You're outcome
will not change until you correct your input.

R

User Example wrote:

So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with.

Right! NOW I get it...

That's not the same.

It's EXACTLY the same...

... They are paying for a product and they are have to pay for R&D.
That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether it is
software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining about the
price of building supplies, now.

You're paying for a product--that product is somebody's time and
expertise and their investment in their equivalent overhead costs--in
the trades that's tools, transportation, training, etc., etc., ...

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal. So, I expect the same when some
workers come to my house to do work. I don't see the justice in paying
mexican's $150/hr to paint my house, which is about what it works out to
when you do the math.

Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...

"User Example" wrote in message

No, what I resent is when they charge 3 or 4 times what it costs to
actually do the job, and that is including paying the labor and the
materials. That's just downright ridiculous. I'm happy to pay them for
their time and the materials they use.

What a guy, with your payment they can actually stay in business for a few
days.

What about associated costs of running a business such as: liability
insurance, workman's comp insurance, vehicle insurance, SS and Medicare
taxes, office expenses, rent, and on and on?

Do you know how much you earn? No, really, do you know what it costs your
employer to keep you on the payroll? Health insurance can add $5 or more
per hour. You probably get paid holidays and vacation that is figured in.
Event though you have a safe office job, he still has to pay workman's comp
insurance, albeit at a lower rate than a foundry worker. He may be paying
property taxes on the desk and computer you use. Measure your office space
and check out rental costs.

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal. So, I expect the same when some
workers come to my house to do work. I don't see the justice in paying
mexican's $150/hr to paint my house, which is about what it works out to
when you do the math.


Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...

Well I give up. It is obvious to me that the reason that contractors
charge outrageous rates and do shoddy work is because the majority of
homeowners don't know the difference in shoddy work and good work. I'm
sure I **** the hell out of the contractors that work for me when they
don't do a good job. For instance, when the guy installing my $1800
frameless shower finished up the job and there was a chipped piece of
glass, smeared caulking, and scatches on my brand new marble shower
enclosure you are darn right I told him to get back and fix it and I
told him that I didn't appreciate him leaving a job that way. If it had
been done right the first time I would have been happy. Even still,
after 2 months of dealing with the shower guy, it still looks pretty
sloppy. I'll end up taking the glass down sometime down the road and
reinstalling and recaulking the mess. $1800 for 3 pieces of glass and
it took 2 months and 3 call backs just to get it satisfactory. That's
what I am talking about. And that's why I do anything I can do on my
own. You don't like my view? Well, then you are probably a sucker so I
don't care.

What a guy, with your payment they can actually stay in business for a few
days.

What about associated costs of running a business such as: liability
insurance, workman's comp insurance, vehicle insurance, SS and Medicare
taxes, office expenses, rent, and on and on?

Do you know how much you earn? No, really, do you know what it costs your
employer to keep you on the payroll? Health insurance can add $5 or more
per hour. You probably get paid holidays and vacation that is figured in.
Event though you have a safe office job, he still has to pay workman's comp
insurance, albeit at a lower rate than a foundry worker. He may be paying
property taxes on the desk and computer you use. Measure your office space
and check out rental costs.


Luckily there are people like you who glady will pay all of that and more.

"User Example" wrote in message


Luckily there are people like you who glady will pay all of that and more.


Yep, or your ass would be on welfare instead of gainfully employed. If we
don't pay a fair price for things, the employers would be out of business
and we'd be paying tax dollars so the ex employees can sit on their asses
and collect from the government. Funny how it works.

Nothing wrong with saving money by DIY and if you do contract, you deserve
good quality work. But there is a cost to it.

Try Rotor rooter


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

User Example wrote:

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal. So, I expect the same when some
workers come to my house to do work. I don't see the justice in paying
mexican's $150/hr to paint my house, which is about what it works out to
when you do the math.


Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...

Well I give up. It is obvious to me that the reason that contractors
charge outrageous rates and do shoddy work is because the majority of
homeowners don't know the difference in shoddy work and good work. I'm
sure I **** the hell out of the contractors that work for me when they
don't do a good job. For instance, when the guy installing my $1800
frameless shower finished up the job and there was a chipped piece of
glass, smeared caulking, and scatches on my brand new marble shower
enclosure you are darn right I told him to get back and fix it and I
told him that I didn't appreciate him leaving a job that way. If it had
been done right the first time I would have been happy. Even still,
after 2 months of dealing with the shower guy, it still looks pretty
sloppy. I'll end up taking the glass down sometime down the road and
reinstalling and recaulking the mess. $1800 for 3 pieces of glass and
it took 2 months and 3 call backs just to get it satisfactory. That's
what I am talking about. And that's why I do anything I can do on my
own. You don't like my view? Well, then you are probably a sucker so I
don't care.

The difference between poor workmanship and the cost of doing business
are two separate arguments...you've changed the target.

User Example wrote:

What a guy, with your payment they can actually stay in business for a few
days.

What about associated costs of running a business such as: liability
insurance, workman's comp insurance, vehicle insurance, SS and Medicare
taxes, office expenses, rent, and on and on?

Do you know how much you earn? No, really, do you know what it costs your
employer to keep you on the payroll? Health insurance can add $5 or more
per hour. You probably get paid holidays and vacation that is figured in.
Event though you have a safe office job, he still has to pay workman's comp
insurance, albeit at a lower rate than a foundry worker. He may be paying
property taxes on the desk and computer you use. Measure your office space
and check out rental costs.


Luckily there are people like you who glady will pay all of that and more.

So since you get yours you begrudge some else theirs?

"User Example" wrote in message
. ..
So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with. Right! NOW I get
it...

That's not the same. They are paying for a product and they are have to
pay for R&D. That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether it is
software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining about the price
of building supplies, now.

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal.

Your rate was high....for what? You have no materials, unless you print out
your code for reference purposes. If that's the case, what's a case of 500
sheets of paper? $25.00? Your expertise is worthless. Unless you print out
your code, you should work for free. Since it's nobody's business how much
money you need to pay your mortgage and other expenses, or what your
education cost, you're certainly not going to reveal that to them. So, you
have no way of justifying anything other than pro bono work.

You must be the darling of the instant oil change places. :-)

Doug Kanter wrote:
You must be the darling of the instant oil change places. :-)


I don't go to those places. Those places are for women.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"User Example" wrote in message
. ..

So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with. Right! NOW I get
it...

That's not the same. They are paying for a product and they are have to
pay for R&D. That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether it is
software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining about the price
of building supplies, now.

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal.


Your rate was high....for what? You have no materials, unless you print out
your code for reference purposes. If that's the case, what's a case of 500
sheets of paper? $25.00? Your expertise is worthless. Unless you print out
your code, you should work for free. Since it's nobody's business how much
money you need to pay your mortgage and other expenses, or what your
education cost, you're certainly not going to reveal that to them. So, you
have no way of justifying anything other than pro bono work.


I didn't set my rate. My company did.

User Example wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

"User Example" wrote in message
. ..

So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your
employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with. Right! NOW I get
it...


That's not the same. They are paying for a product and they are have
to pay for R&D. That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether
it is software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining
about the price of building supplies, now.

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very
high but they knew that going into the deal.



Your rate was high....for what? You have no materials, unless you
print out your code for reference purposes. If that's the case, what's
a case of 500 sheets of paper? $25.00? Your expertise is worthless.
Unless you print out your code, you should work for free. Since it's
nobody's business how much money you need to pay your mortgage and
other expenses, or what your education cost, you're certainly not
going to reveal that to them. So, you have no way of justifying
anything other than pro bono work.

I didn't set my rate. My company did.

And yes, it was a ripoff...

On 08/27/05 03:43 pm Duane Bozarth tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

So the purchasers of the software you write should obviously be writing
their own as they're paying for the business license of of your employer
as well as the secretary and your benefit and fringe package and the
machine and tools you're using to develop with.

Right! NOW I get it...

That's not the same.

It's EXACTLY the same...

... They are paying for a product and they are have to pay for R&D.
That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether it is
software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining about the
price of building supplies, now.

You're paying for a product--that product is somebody's time and
expertise and their investment in their equivalent overhead costs--in
the trades that's tools, transportation, training, etc., etc., ...

I have done contract work where I had to go to the customer's site to
write software. But even then, we negotiated on a rate (time and
materials) and that's all I charged for. Granted my rate was very high
but they knew that going into the deal. So, I expect the same when some
workers come to my house to do work. I don't see the justice in paying
mexican's $150/hr to paint my house, which is about what it works out to
when you do the math.

Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...

But according to the post that started all this, the plumber had quoted
his rate per hour, the material cost, and the length of the job, but the
total estimated price for the job was far more than the sum of these,
even allowing for it taking longer than estimated.

When we were living in NY and getting our car fixed and they told us
that the parts would cost $200 and it would take 3 hours labor at
$90/hr., do you think we would have been happy to end up with a bill for
$850?

That's the kind of thing that the OP was complaining about.

Perce

Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...


But according to the post that started all this, the plumber had quoted
his rate per hour, the material cost, and the length of the job, but the
total estimated price for the job was far more than the sum of these,
even allowing for it taking longer than estimated.

When we were living in NY and getting our car fixed and they told us
that the parts would cost $200 and it would take 3 hours labor at
$90/hr., do you think we would have been happy to end up with a bill for
$850?

That's the kind of thing that the OP was complaining about.

Thank you. Finally someone gets it.

"User Example" wrote in message
But according to the post that started all this, the plumber had quoted
his rate per hour, the material cost, and the length of the job, but the
total estimated price for the job was far more than the sum of these,
even allowing for it taking longer than estimated.

True, then he needs a better contractor, but not all are like that.


When we were living in NY and getting our car fixed and they told us that
the parts would cost $200 and it would take 3 hours labor at $90/hr., do
you think we would have been happy to end up with a bill for $850?

That's the kind of thing that the OP was complaining about.

Thank you. Finally someone gets it.

But he said:
"No, what I resent is when they charge 3 or 4 times what it costs to
actually do the job, and that is including paying the labor and the
materials. That's just downright ridiculous. I'm happy to pay them for
their time and the materials they use. But at the rate a lot of them
charge, you are paying a day or two of work to people who don't even go
out to your job site. That just doesn't seem right to me."

My interpretation of this is that he resents paying overhead costs no matter
how needed it is. Yes, thee will be people that do not show up at the job
site. Buyers, accountants, schedulers, etc. All depends on the size of the
company. Yes, they do perform a needed function.

"Doug Kanter" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" writes:
That's the LEAST outrageous of the stories I could tell you. :-)

Please share some of the more outrageous onew with us too

Let's see.....there was the electric can opener, reminiscent of something
out of an M.C. Escher painting. She once left it on a stove burner and
melted it in such a way that it leaned forward at about a 20 degree angle.
Since it was originally tall enough to open a 46 oz juice can, you could
still get a 16 oz can under it, even with the tilt. But, the magnet would no
longer hold the can in place at that angle, so you had to palm the can from
beneath while it was opened. Of course, this meant that whatever was in the
can ended up all over your hand and the counter. Her only other options were
3 or 4 of those little openers intended for campers who are gluttons for
punishment. We bought her a nice new electric opener which she refused to
even take out of the box. "That old one's just fine, thank you." Then, she'd
go for the bug spray and hose down the gap between the stove and the
counter, where the effluent from tilted cans spilled and attracted every ant
in the neighborhood.

New phone: She had an ancient rotary phone. It took almost a minute to dial
anyone. Since she never opened the windows in the kitchen, the phone was
encrusted with years' worth of grease and crud, which made the dialer thing
sluggish. We figured that if she ever needed to dial 911, she'd be dead
before she got past 9. So, in went a touch tone phone with big buttons. The
first objection was that she didn't want to pay for touch tone service. Once
we explained that the phone didn't require it, she decided it was still too
fancy for her, and refused to make or receive calls until the phone was
removed. That took 2 weeks, and it was paid for with OUR money. :-)

Free Government Food: She thought it was frugal to get on some sort of
program which offered free "staple" food items to people in need, which she
was not. Things like canned pork, with white labels that just said "Pork",
and "USDA - Don't Call Us If You Don't Like This Stuff". She'd come home
from wherever and usually put away the 5 lb brick of American cheese.
Usually. Not always. Twice, we found shopping bags in the basement with
cheese that had turned green and expanded to the point where it blew open
the thick plastic wrapper. Sometimes, bags of rice crawling with maggots. We
have no idea what the "pork" was, although dog food comes to mind.

Time to mow the lawn.

Thanks for sharing -- got a good laugh

User Example wrote:

I didn't set my rate. My company did.

And yes, it was a ripoff...

So it's okay for you to work for a company that gouges but you won't
hire companies that charge more than straight materials and labor.
Right.
R

"User Example" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
You must be the darling of the instant oil change places. :-)
I don't go to those places. Those places are for women.

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else? Whatever
for?

"User Example" wrote in message
. ..

Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...


But according to the post that started all this, the plumber had quoted
his rate per hour, the material cost, and the length of the job, but the
total estimated price for the job was far more than the sum of these,
even allowing for it taking longer than estimated.

When we were living in NY and getting our car fixed and they told us that
the parts would cost $200 and it would take 3 hours labor at $90/hr., do
you think we would have been happy to end up with a bill for $850?

That's the kind of thing that the OP was complaining about.

Thank you. Finally someone gets it.

Actually, no, he only sort of gets it. That was a comment on a particular
plumber. It doesn't represent how all plumbers will operate. My major
complaint was that I can't get someone to actually show up, quote the job,
and do the work. If I finally find a couple more whose math is faulty, I'll
come back here and adjust these comments.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
User Example wrote:

I didn't set my rate. My company did.

And yes, it was a ripoff...

So it's okay for you to work for a company that gouges but you won't
hire companies that charge more than straight materials and labor.
Right.
R


I'm getting dizzy. You too? :-)

Doug Kanter wrote:
"User Example" wrote in message
. ..

Well, you go paint some houses for a living and see what you end up
charging as a working wage...


But according to the post that started all this, the plumber had quoted
his rate per hour, the material cost, and the length of the job, but the
total estimated price for the job was far more than the sum of these,
even allowing for it taking longer than estimated.

When we were living in NY and getting our car fixed and they told us that
the parts would cost $200 and it would take 3 hours labor at $90/hr., do
you think we would have been happy to end up with a bill for $850?

That's the kind of thing that the OP was complaining about.


Thank you. Finally someone gets it.


Actually, no, he only sort of gets it. That was a comment on a particular
plumber. It doesn't represent how all plumbers will operate. My major
complaint was that I can't get someone to actually show up, quote the job,
and do the work. If I finally find a couple more whose math is faulty, I'll
come back here and adjust these comments.


This is boring so I quit.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"User Example" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
You must be the darling of the instant oil change places. :-)
I don't go to those places. Those places are for women.

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else? Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"User Example" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
You must be the darling of the instant oil change places. :-)
I don't go to those places. Those places are for women.

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else? Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

46 oz juice can, stuffed with cheesecloth, attached with duct tape. Got it!

In article , Doug Kanter says...


"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"User Example" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
You must be the darling of the instant oil change places. :-)
I don't go to those places. Those places are for women.

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else? Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

46 oz juice can, stuffed with cheesecloth, attached with duct tape. Got it!


...and all because he has a penis.

Banty

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
Doug Kanter wrote:

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else? Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

46 oz juice can, stuffed with cheesecloth, attached with duct tape. Got it!

No, that's not it. You forget who you're talking about. This is Mr.
Can-Do!, the perfectionist. He refines his own oil because if anyone
is gouging, it's the oil companies. The filter housings come from his
foray into smelting a while back, so he was already geared up for
production. The filtering medium was obviously left over from his
paper-making endeavours (paper grows on trees! Why should he pay
anything at all for it?).

R

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
Doug Kanter wrote:

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else?
Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

46 oz juice can, stuffed with cheesecloth, attached with duct tape. Got
it!

No, that's not it. You forget who you're talking about. This is Mr.
Can-Do!, the perfectionist. He refines his own oil because if anyone
is gouging, it's the oil companies. The filter housings come from his
foray into smelting a while back, so he was already geared up for
production. The filtering medium was obviously left over from his
paper-making endeavours (paper grows on trees! Why should he pay
anything at all for it?).

R


:-)

Well Doug,

Since no one here will tell you, I figured I should. Yes there is a
secret password to get proper service from plumbers, and other service
people too. For a small fee, I will share mine with you. LOL

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

"That's not the same. They are paying for a product and they are have
to
pay for R&D. That goes for anything you buy off the shelf whether it
is
software, a toilet valve, or an A/C. I am not complaining about the
price of building supplies, now. "

Software purchases also normally require a purchase of maintenance in
order to receive support when bugs are found, additional resources to
test the software (because it rarely works as advertised), training,
and (sometimes) additional hardware. Whether I buy that in the initial
license or on the back end, software/technology is generally a bad
comparison because the license models are very bloated.

I didn't read through all the posts, but sometimes the quote is based
on other factors that may not be apparent to the purchaser (i.e., I was
going to go fishing tomorrwow, but if you pay me enough I'll work for
you instead).

I like to save money as much as the next person and I try to learn to
do things myself (I'm not necessarily handy, but I'm inquisitive and
like to learn new things), but there are also times when I'm willing to
pay the premium to have someone else do it. It's rarely a black/white
issue. I had some insulation work done last year...sure, I could have
done it myself, but it was worth it to me to pay someone to a) get it
done while I was at work, b) not have to deal with the attic heat, the
itching and the crawlspaces, and c) it was actually cheaper than if I
rented the equipment, bought the materials at non-contractor rates.

When it comes time to rewire some of the electric, I know what I can do
and/or what I should probably contract out.

Dave

RicodJour wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

Doug Kanter wrote:

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else? Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

46 oz juice can, stuffed with cheesecloth, attached with duct tape. Got it!


No, that's not it. You forget who you're talking about. This is Mr.
Can-Do!, the perfectionist. He refines his own oil because if anyone
is gouging, it's the oil companies. The filter housings come from his
foray into smelting a while back, so he was already geared up for
production. The filtering medium was obviously left over from his
paper-making endeavours (paper grows on trees! Why should he pay
anything at all for it?).

R

Actually I change my own oil because I know that those guys don't grease
the ball joints or check any other suspension type stuff. They are too
busy undoing your airfilter so that they can get you to buy another one.
I change my oil every 3 months and check out the bottom of my car.
Costs a lot less than the jiffy lube and a lot more care goes into it.
My Jeep has over 300000 miles on it and purrs like a kitten and has
never needed any major service. Just a clutch, and I replaced that
myself in an afternoon and save $800.

Who needs good gas mileage when you can save the money by doing your own
maintenance?

"User Example" wrote in message
Who needs good gas mileage when you can save the money by doing your own
maintenance?

Why not save in both areas?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"User Example" wrote in message

Who needs good gas mileage when you can save the money by doing your own
maintenance?


Why not save in both areas?

When automakers get with the program and finally make efficient cars I
will. Until there, they are wasting my time. There is no reason that
there shouldn't be several cars on the markey with 60mpg. Honda had
the CRX HF back in 86 or so that was getting over 40mpg easily which is
about as much or more than some of these Hybrids, today. And it didn't
even use a battery. If you have noticed, the HP in todays cars is MUCH
more than it was 20 yrs ago.

Most small cars today have well over 100hp. Did you know that the Honda
CRX which would go over 100mph only had around 70HP? Did you know that
the VW Beetle (original) only had 38HP-60HP depending on model? The HP
is today's cars is a waste... automakers could easily trade some of that
HP for more efficient lesser HP cars.

"User Example" wrote in message

Most small cars today have well over 100hp. Did you know that the Honda
CRX which would go over 100mph only had around 70HP? Did you know that
the VW Beetle (original) only had 38HP-60HP depending on model? The HP is
today's cars is a waste... automakers could easily trade some of that HP
for more efficient lesser HP cars.

The consumer seems to go in cycles, often based on the price/availability of
gas. Right now, the advertising is geared towards power (that will never be
used) and that is what people are buying. Look at the Chrysler ads and how
they tout the hemi engine. They are selling cars. Same with the SUV craze.
No matter how hard you try, 99% of the buyers of big cars and trucks just
cannot justify having the Super8DeluxeExtendedBedandCab4x4 to commute to
work or pick up a loaf of bread.

The Element and Scion though, seem to be selling, ugly as they are. What I
want in a car is enough room to get in and out easily, all the goodies like
power everything, rain sensing wipers, ability to cruise at 70 mph, enough
acceleration to get safely on the highway (not 0-60 in 4 seconds). Much as
I like the sexy sport cars, it is not what I want to drive day in and day
out. There are many cars that fit that category, but still get less than 30
mpg. They can get more and still give good performance.

User Example wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"User Example" wrote in message

Who needs good gas mileage when you can save the money by doing your own
maintenance?


Why not save in both areas?

When automakers get with the program and finally make efficient cars I
will. Until there, they are wasting my time. There is no reason that
there shouldn't be several cars on the markey with 60mpg. Honda had
the CRX HF back in 86 or so that was getting over 40mpg easily which is
about as much or more than some of these Hybrids, today. And it didn't
even use a battery. If you have noticed, the HP in todays cars is MUCH
more than it was 20 yrs ago.

....

Can you say "Customer response" and "Emissions control" ?

"User Example" wrote in message
...
RicodJour wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

Doug Kanter wrote:

Oh....you pay a little more for the oil & filter someplace else?
Whatever
for?

I think he's saying he doesn't change oil and filter because he won't
pay the exorbitant overheads involved in the manufacturing and
distribution of the products that he could just as well make for
himself...

46 oz juice can, stuffed with cheesecloth, attached with duct tape. Got
it!


No, that's not it. You forget who you're talking about. This is Mr.
Can-Do!, the perfectionist. He refines his own oil because if anyone
is gouging, it's the oil companies. The filter housings come from his
foray into smelting a while back, so he was already geared up for
production. The filtering medium was obviously left over from his
paper-making endeavours (paper grows on trees! Why should he pay
anything at all for it?).

R

Actually I change my own oil because I know that those guys don't grease
the ball joints or check any other suspension type stuff. They are too
busy undoing your airfilter so that they can get you to buy another one. I
change my oil every 3 months and check out the bottom of my car. Costs a
lot less than the jiffy lube and a lot more care goes into it. My Jeep has
over 300000 miles on it and purrs like a kitten and has never needed any
major service. Just a clutch, and I replaced that myself in an afternoon
and save $800.

Who needs good gas mileage when you can save the money by doing your own
maintenance?

I pay $29.95 for an oil change. My mechanic checks or greases all the
fittings that Toyota recommends for my 4 wheel drive vehicle. They check
brake pads and give me an idea of when to start thinking about service. He
greases hood latch, tailgate latch, all door hinges & latches, checks brake
fluid, power steering fluid, transmission fluid, and tops them off at no
charge if they need it. At 12000 miles, he noticed some rust on the rear
bumper, underneath where I probably wouldn't have noticed it. That enabled
me to get it replaced under warranty. At 18000 miles, he noticed that the
tires were wearing unevenly. Back to the dealer, since alignment is covered
by warranty. They said it was within spec, and didn't adjust. My mechanic
did some research and found, IIRC, that this truck wants its front wheels
dead center within the range of spec, not just "within the range". He
probably saved me having to spend $500 on tires a year or two too soon.

Sounds worth it to me.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message

I pay $29.95 for an oil change. My mechanic checks or greases all the
fittings that Toyota recommends for my 4 wheel drive vehicle. They check
brake pads and give me an idea of when to start thinking about service. He
greases hood latch, tailgate latch, all door hinges & latches, checks
brake fluid, power steering fluid, transmission fluid, and tops them off
at no charge if they need it.


I get that for $24.95 at a local guy, not a big franchise. He does not do
any of the other work that you mentioned , so he has no reason to try to
scam anyone for a brake job or ball joints. But, as you point out, he is
able to spot stuff while under the car.

I used to change my own oil but when I bought a new car in 1991, that
changed. I bought the oil, bought the filter, drove the car up on ramps and
could not find the filter! It was mounted off the engine on an auxiliary
block that was difficult to reach fun underneath. Easier if you jacked the
car and turned the wheels to one side. That was my last oil change. As I
get older and less agile, I have less interest in crawling under a car. I
find it easier to earn the money and pay to have it done.