What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level from
"I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely. He
said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to look
at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed to
be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work, and
know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said
he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying he
will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from
"I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He
said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look
at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to
be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and
know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said
he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying
he
will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


It seems the whole small contractor thing , the one man shop,the I'll
be right out guy. Has turned into a business of flakes. If it's a matter of
not wanting to do little jobs, why bother going out to look. Some of those
small jobs are a pain in the ass, bid them to be a pain. They are the kind
of guys that want to work until they get a job.

Doug Kanter wrote:
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level from
"I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely. He
said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to look
at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed to
be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work, and
know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said
he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying he
will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some
extra just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are
going to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will
do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

User Example wrote:

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work.

You just wrote that anyone that comes to your house is going to charge
you too much. What are you suggesting? Bring the bathroom to them?

Nothing like a blanket statement to start off a post. It immediately
let's people know where you stand so they can determine if they want to
keep reading or not.

You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience",

You left out materials. Besides the labor and subs, the other things
are called overhead - the cost of doing business. You left out
insurance, licensing, vehicles and other equipment, etc., etc.

and some
extra just to rip you off.

I'm not sure if you're talking about profit, contingency amounts or
gouging. Of course it could just be that whatever amount they charged
would be too much for you.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is
not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the
quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of
work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds
or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either
your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work
being done.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are
going to have to do it yourself.

My time is worth more than your average tradesman's hourly rate. If
you consider your own time to have no value, then you're right, doing
your own work will be a modest price. This is the standard
self-deluding position of most people that crow about their savings
doing their own work. If you factor in the time it takes them to do
the work, multiply that by how much they earn at their regular job and
add that to the project cost, there is rarely a savings. Unless the
person earns very little to start with.

You can find people to hire that will
do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

Finishing off your post with another obviously fallacious blanket
statement always helps people classify your position.

thanks

R

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work.


You just wrote that anyone that comes to your house is going to charge
you too much. What are you suggesting? Bring the bathroom to them?

Nothing like a blanket statement to start off a post. It immediately
let's people know where you stand so they can determine if they want to
keep reading or not.

Well, it looks like you determined that you want to read it. Matter of
fact, you even took time to critique everything I said.


You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience",


You left out materials. Besides the labor and subs, the other things
are called overhead - the cost of doing business. You left out
insurance, licensing, vehicles and other equipment, etc., etc.

Yes, that is my point exactly... stuff that as a DIYer you don't have to
pay for.


and some
extra just to rip you off.


I'm not sure if you're talking about profit, contingency amounts or
gouging. Of course it could just be that whatever amount they charged
would be too much for you.


When you figure out the cost of time and materials and compare that to
what they charge you, there will always be a big gap. Where does that
money go? It certainly isn't going to the work they do on your house
and that is a rip off.



Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.


Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is
not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the
quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of
work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds
or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either
your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work
being done.

I have had some good work done and some bad work done. In general, high
skilled work like A/C work gets done well. Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par. But in the end, it's a gamble
and usually never perfect. And perfection is what I expect when I am
paying for it.



Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are
going to have to do it yourself.


My time is worth more than your average tradesman's hourly rate. If
you consider your own time to have no value, then you're right, doing
your own work will be a modest price. This is the standard
self-deluding position of most people that crow about their savings
doing their own work. If you factor in the time it takes them to do
the work, multiply that by how much they earn at their regular job and
add that to the project cost, there is rarely a savings. Unless the
person earns very little to start with.


Well, I wasn't implying that you should do the job during your working
hours. If you do it during that time when you are usually jerking off
or wasting time analyzing peoples USENET posts then I am not so sure
your time is worth more... but then again, maybe you value that jerking
time.


You can find people to hire that will
do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.


Finishing off your post with another obviously fallacious blanket
statement always helps people classify your position

Call it what you want but it is generally true. I don't have time to
quantify every statement and place disclaimers on everything I say.
Maybe you do, or is your time too valuable?

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:

Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.

On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...


--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

John Willis wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:


Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.


On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...

I guess you people are freaking idiots then if you can't fix anything
yourself and you consider the dumb ass migrant works who paint your
house to be skilled labor. I guess maybe I am just smarter than all of
you because you sound like a bunch of whiners that can't do anything
right on your own. I'd think that in a alt.home.repair newsgroup I
would find people that are actually quite handy but I guess I was wrong.
Unbelievable.

"John Willis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example
scribbled this interesting note:

Low skilled work like
painting and carpentry gets done sub par.

On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done
correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that
it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a
carpenter worthy of the job title.

It's not like there's a diploma for being a carpenter. A guy decides one
day to put an ad in the yellow pages and volia!, he's a carpenter.


As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or
less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to
do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end
result.

We had some immigrant spend three days trying to finish some small area of
drywall. Everytime he left big grooves and it looked like ****. The
painter who said he was a good guy, hoad to go out and get another good guy
to fix it.


I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who
have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer
or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are
qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly
predictable...

And what makes some schmo on the street to be a carpenter? An ad.



--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

"RicodJour" writes:
User Example wrote:
Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is
not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the
quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of
work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds
or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either
your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work
being done.


I agree with much of the (deleted) rest of your post, but take issue
with some of your points here regarding the quality of DIY
vs. professional work.

If you are a perfectionist and reasonably handy, then on many basic
carpentry, electrical and plumbing type projects you can do a higher
quality job than a professional if you do your research and are
willing to take a lot longer. As you state, you may save out-of-pocket
costs but you will almost definitely take longer and the true savings
depends on what value you assign to your non-business hours time.

Professionals are not being paid enough for perfectionism nor do they
usually bring that level of commitment to the job. I find that the
"skill" in "skilled labor" has more to do with the efficiency of their
labor than with the quality of the final result. Of course, if you are
willing to pay unlimited sums for a job then you can mandate
perfectionism though even this is not necessarily true.

For example, my mom is a perfectionist and goes with the highest
quality/highest cost contractors yet is repeatedly frustrated with the
lack of skill and attention to detail -- unfortunately, even the best
contractors often bring in subs and unskilled labor that don't
justify the premium they demand. She is now in the process of builing
a standalone 1-story, 1-car garage for which she is paying $100K+ yet
the carpenter brought in by the contractor has made countless
mistakes, disregarding clearly speced architectual plans.

"blueman" wrote in message
...


Professionals are not being paid enough for perfectionism nor do they
usually bring that level of commitment to the job. I find that the
"skill" in "skilled labor" has more to do with the efficiency of their
labor than with the quality of the final result. Of course, if you are
willing to pay unlimited sums for a job then you can mandate
perfectionism though even this is not necessarily true.

And then, the problem is that you never know. It can be a crap shoot. As my
current experience indicates, you can't always find a referral. I don't have
a million friends, and of the dozen I've asked, nobody has needed a plumber
in recent memory. But, years ago, we got very lucky when we needed to have a
couple of ceilings sheetrocked. We'd found lead paint, and after collecting
advice from 200 million sources, we decided the best way to deal with the
badly cracked plaster ceiling was to enclose it, after installing some
recessed lights. A friend recommended a guy whose work was described as
"holy ****....amazing". He took forever to show up, wanted about 30% more
than other estimates, but the ceilings looked like they'd poured into an
upside down room. I walked in during the installation and found the guy had
a half dozen little bubble levels suspended from strings somehow. I just
shook my head and said "Yeah...OK". Perfect. We were happy.

I'd be surprised if I could find someone like that again. Or, maybe I might.
Who knows?

"User Example" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some extra
just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going
to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do
excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

That's a whole lot of generalizations. What stands out the most is that you
seem to be saying the plumber's got no business making money. And, it's
obvious that his fees include whatever overhead he has to deal with. What
business hasn't got overhead? What's important to me is that someone state
their fees clearly, and from that point on, it's up to me to decide what's
worthwhile. In this case, I know there's a decent plumber (somewhere) who
can do the work in X number of hours, and when it's done, I won't need to
think about it. My roof's another story. That's something I'll probably
replace myself, since I've done it successfully on a previous house.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going
to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do
excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.


That's a whole lot of generalizations. What stands out the most is that you
seem to be saying the plumber's got no business making money. And, it's
obvious that his fees include whatever overhead he has to deal with. What
business hasn't got overhead? What's important to me is that someone state
their fees clearly, and from that point on, it's up to me to decide what's
worthwhile. In this case, I know there's a decent plumber (somewhere) who
can do the work in X number of hours, and when it's done, I won't need to
think about it. My roof's another story. That's something I'll probably
replace myself, since I've done it successfully on a previous house.


Plumbers have a right to make money and people have the right to give it
to them. I on the other hand will do that stuff myself and use the
saved money to buy fun things like vacations or put it away for
retirement.

My father did everything himself and although he made much less than
everyone in our neighborhood, we always had a nicer home and had
everything we needed. When something broke at night or on the weekend
he was able to fix it instead of suffering through until a repairman
could come. If we had a flat tire, he'd change the tire, instead of
spraying a can of fix a flat into it.

I guess there are two types of people. People that will spend money and
people that won't. I grew up learning to save money and only hire
people to do work that I can't do myself. I see more and more people
out there who can't even replace a burnt out light bulb in their car or
replace a bathroom faucet.

Oh well, do what you want. I hope you have a good time at the office
while I am on vacation.

In article , Doug Kanter says...


"User Example" wrote in message
m...
Doug Kanter wrote:
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that
will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much
for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people
who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some extra
just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better
because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there
isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost
always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going
to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do
excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

That's a whole lot of generalizations. What stands out the most is that you
seem to be saying the plumber's got no business making money. And, it's
obvious that his fees include whatever overhead he has to deal with. What
business hasn't got overhead? What's important to me is that someone state
their fees clearly, and from that point on, it's up to me to decide what's
worthwhile. In this case, I know there's a decent plumber (somewhere) who
can do the work in X number of hours, and when it's done, I won't need to
think about it. My roof's another story. That's something I'll probably
replace myself, since I've done it successfully on a previous house.



It strikes me that if you:

1. Have a lot of time
2. Have the skills
3. Either enjoy it (lots of people do, bless them) or have no competing spare
time interests

or alternatively:

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

...what he says makes sense (except the thing about seemingly objecting to
contractors making a living....)

But I

1. Don't have a lot of time
2. Dont' have many skills (great painting skills) and don't particularly care
for every project being a learning experience and my house being my guinea pig
3. Sure have a long list of stuff I love to do in my spare time otherwise

and

a. Am not stupid-cheap.

So I have in the 11 years I've lived in this house built up a good list of good
skilled folks. And a pretty good knack for discerning who's good and who's not
and getting good value.

Banty

Banty wrote:

It strikes me that if you:

1. Have a lot of time
2. Have the skills
3. Either enjoy it (lots of people do, bless them) or have no competing spare
time interests

or alternatively:

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

..what he says makes sense (except the thing about seemingly objecting to
contractors making a living....)

But I

1. Don't have a lot of time
2. Dont' have many skills (great painting skills) and don't particularly care
for every project being a learning experience and my house being my guinea pig
3. Sure have a long list of stuff I love to do in my spare time otherwise

and

a. Am not stupid-cheap.

So I have in the 11 years I've lived in this house built up a good list of good
skilled folks. And a pretty good knack for discerning who's good and who's not
and getting good value.

Well said.

R

"Banty" wrote in message
...

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

My mother in law! If she needed an ambulance, she wouldn't call one unless
she had a coupon. Her frugality was good at times, but not at others, and
she didn't have the skills to know the difference. So....she did all her
laundry with cold water and powdered detergent, with old iron pipes. They
ended up so clogged that they couldn't be cleared. Overflowed, ruined all
the basement carpet. Called a "handyman" to replace the pipes, because he
was cheaper than a plumber. $2000 later....no need to finish the story. So
much for saving money.

In article , Doug Kanter says...

"Banty" wrote in message
...

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

My mother in law! If she needed an ambulance, she wouldn't call one unless
she had a coupon. Her frugality was good at times, but not at others, and
she didn't have the skills to know the difference. So....she did all her
laundry with cold water and powdered detergent, with old iron pipes. They
ended up so clogged that they couldn't be cleared. Overflowed, ruined all
the basement carpet. Called a "handyman" to replace the pipes, because he
was cheaper than a plumber. $2000 later....no need to finish the story. So
much for saving money.

Yep.

And could you ever convince her that the problem was that she was being
stupid-cheap to begin with?

....I'm placing my bet..

Banty

Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him
through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral
service actually worked well for me. http://www.servicemagic.com/

-B

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Interesting site. I'm in Rochester NY.

"No" wrote in message
...
Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him
through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral
service actually worked well for me. http://www.servicemagic.com/

-B

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

"No" wrote in message
...
Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him
through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral
service actually worked well for me. http://www.servicemagic.com/


Not me, I will not list my business on SM. Why? They would send me an
email with the job spec _as written by the homeowner_. I'd accept the job
and pay SM the $10 they wanted. I'd call the customer and go actually look
at the job. What they wrote and what they needed was no where near the
same. I'd bid the job and not get it. I've found out since then mostly
drunks and losers list with SM...




-B

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said
his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because
you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as
likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what
needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

I was in the same boat as you..... I was in the process of building
a bathroom in my basement. I needed a ejector pump, the sewer lines
and hot/ cold copper run. I got a quote from a friends plumber for
1400.00 for the whole job. I jumped on it! This guy promised he'd
show for weeks at a time and nothing. I called other plumbers in to
get estimates, they never showed either. After a week or so, I just
said the hell with this crap, took a
sledge hammer and started the job myself. Needless to say, I did it
all. I even got a few perminant scars (hot solder + skin = OOOOUCH!)
on my
arm for the job. In the mean time I did get a number for a Master
plumper that charges allot of money. At least this guy shows and does
good work. If I have MAJOR problems at least I have someone to call.


Its a rare find to get one of these guys in (and shows) for a decent
price.

I did upgrade my service in my home to 200amp. The electrician was
recommended by a coworker (his brother inlaw)

The guy showed, did a great job and didnt rip me off at all. In my
appreciation I got him a few more jobs (residental and commercial)

I'd try the "major" part of the work, but it involves removing massive iron
drain pipes from the 1st floor bathroom down to the cellar and replacing
with PVC. I'm really leary of totally disabling the only bathroom in the
house for more than a day, and as we know, EVERYTHING takes more than a day
when you're learning. And, I really don't know my new neighbors well enough
to ask if we can plan on using their bathroom for an entire weekend. I've
done faucets and other lightweight stuff, but this is a whole 'nother thing.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was in the same boat as you..... I was in the process of building
a bathroom in my basement. I needed a ejector pump, the sewer lines
and hot/ cold copper run. I got a quote from a friends plumber for
1400.00 for the whole job. I jumped on it! This guy promised he'd
show for weeks at a time and nothing. I called other plumbers in to
get estimates, they never showed either. After a week or so, I just
said the hell with this crap, took a
sledge hammer and started the job myself. Needless to say, I did it
all. I even got a few perminant scars (hot solder + skin = OOOOUCH!)
on my
arm for the job. In the mean time I did get a number for a Master
plumper that charges allot of money. At least this guy shows and does
good work. If I have MAJOR problems at least I have someone to call.


Its a rare find to get one of these guys in (and shows) for a decent
price.

I did upgrade my service in my home to 200amp. The electrician was
recommended by a coworker (his brother inlaw)

The guy showed, did a great job and didnt rip me off at all. In my
appreciation I got him a few more jobs (residental and commercial)

"Doug Kanter" writes:
I'd try the "major" part of the work, but it involves removing massive iron
[...]
I'm really leary of totally disabling the only bathroom in the house
for more than a day, and as we know, EVERYTHING takes more than a day

Couple solutions:
Get an "elderly user" portable toilet. It's like a cross between a
walker and a toilet. essentially a toilet seat with a support frame
surround and a bucket which can be removed when in need of emptying.
(Used essentially the same way as a chamber pot when they can't get
from the bed to toilet quickly)

Or, you could take a hint from your cat.
Get a contractor bucket, and a bag of kitty litter. Use the bucket as
needed, and cover with kitty litter. If your squeamish, throw the
whole thing out when you are finished with the job.

Or, Make everyone use it before the iron is removed, and plan on going
out for lunch/dinner.

I'd try to arrange for liquids to be bottled and/or disposed of
outside. (if you have a drain in the basment floor connected to the
sewage system, you could empty things there if outside isn't private
enough.) (Don't empty the kitty litter into the sewage)

Just a few thoughts.

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

"Doug Kanter" writes:

Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Seems so. I can count the number of trades folk that had any customer
service clue whatsoever on one hand.

The first plumber gave you the "I feel pretty overwhelmed, go away or
make it worth my while" quote it seems.

If somehow you can root out someone who takes side jobs, that might be
the way to go, but that can be hard without having a buddy in the
trades.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

I can get my plumber in an hour if it is an emergency, but routine work is
booked for months. He'll put us ahead of others at times but it can still
be a few weeks. He won't even take calls from potential new customers.

I gave the electrician the "go-ahead" on a job two weeks ago and he just
started today. Probably a three day job for him.

My HVAC guy took three weeks to quote a $7,000 job and it will be another
few before he can get started And this is because he gives us some
priority as we store his boat for the winter in one of our warehouses for
free.

Good tradesmen are in demand and can make a good living. Anyone with the
sills can have a good career with work for life.
Ed

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

My HVAC guy took three weeks to quote a $7,000 job and it will be another
few before he can get started And this is because he gives us some
priority as we store his boat for the winter in one of our warehouses for
free.

Next spring when he's asking for his boat, you should take three weeks
to move the equipment that's blocking it. Might send a hint.

R

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote Re Secret password for hiring a
plumber?:

Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Yes. Avoid them if possible. They obviously don't want you business.
Ask your neighbors for referrals to competent "handy man" type people.
Alternatively, look in the classifieds. If you have to get a
"stranger" start him with your smallest job first. See how that goes
make a decision based on that.
--
To email me directly, remove CLUTTER.

Try Rotor rooter


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level
from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his
rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For
purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you
never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely.
He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to
look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've
accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed
to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price
shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work,
and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood,
said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps
saying he will, but it's August 26th and......


Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so
much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?

Sometimes, yes, "these guys" do have so much work. It depends on the
potential customer. Sometimes I'll get a call from someone who starts
breaking my chops and conducting an inquisition before I have even
seen the job. They'll demand a firm estimate over the phone to be
followed up by the FREE written estimate, the scheduling of which is
to be at their convenience regardless of my work schedule. Before I've
even seen the job they demand chapter and verse about how the job will
actually be done and what materials will be used.
Anyone who is any good doesn't need that kind of customer. They have
plenty of work. I just thank them for calling and tell them I'll get
back to them when I can assure them of a firm appointment for an
estimate. Then I just forget about them. Life's too short.
Did I describe you?

MisterSkippy wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Sometimes, yes, "these guys" do have so much work. It depends on the
potential customer. Sometimes I'll get a call from someone who starts
breaking my chops and conducting an inquisition before I have even
seen the job. They'll demand a firm estimate over the phone to be
followed up by the FREE written estimate, the scheduling of which is
to be at their convenience regardless of my work schedule. Before I've
even seen the job they demand chapter and verse about how the job will
actually be done and what materials will be used.
Anyone who is any good doesn't need that kind of customer. They have
plenty of work. I just thank them for calling and tell them I'll get
back to them when I can assure them of a firm appointment for an
estimate. Then I just forget about them. Life's too short.
Did I describe you?

Although you don't want these kinds of customers I can probably tell you
that these types of customers probably don't want you either. You just
said that you tell them you will call them back but then you just forget
about them. That tells me that (1) you are a liar and (2) you don't
have much respect for your customers.

The reason some customers make such demands is because there are a lot
of contractors out there who show up, do crappy work, and then cash the
pay check before the customer has time to figure out that the work that
was done was sloppy and needs to be fixed. Then when they try to get
the contractor to come back and fix it they get the runaround of "that's
the way it is supposed to be" or "that's as good as I can get it based
on what you have" or "you should have said something before I left the
worksite".

The customer is the one PAYING to get the work done and they are the one
who has to LIVE with the results. They have ever RIGHT to be demanding
and picky. You can choose not to work for them but at least be man
enough to tell them you don't want to instead of being a lowlife liar
that leaves them hanging.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:28:48 GMT, User Example
wrote:

MisterSkippy wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Sometimes, yes, "these guys" do have so much work. It depends on the
potential customer. Sometimes I'll get a call from someone who starts
breaking my chops and conducting an inquisition before I have even
seen the job. They'll demand a firm estimate over the phone to be
followed up by the FREE written estimate, the scheduling of which is
to be at their convenience regardless of my work schedule. Before I've
even seen the job they demand chapter and verse about how the job will
actually be done and what materials will be used.
Anyone who is any good doesn't need that kind of customer. They have
plenty of work. I just thank them for calling and tell them I'll get
back to them when I can assure them of a firm appointment for an
estimate. Then I just forget about them. Life's too short.
Did I describe you?

Although you don't want these kinds of customers I can probably tell you
that these types of customers probably don't want you either. You just
said that you tell them you will call them back but then you just forget
about them. That tells me that (1) you are a liar and (2) you don't
have much respect for your customers.

The reason some customers make such demands is because there are a lot
of contractors out there who show up, do crappy work, and then cash the
pay check before the customer has time to figure out that the work that
was done was sloppy and needs to be fixed. Then when they try to get
the contractor to come back and fix it they get the runaround of "that's
the way it is supposed to be" or "that's as good as I can get it based
on what you have" or "you should have said something before I left the
worksite".

The customer is the one PAYING to get the work done and they are the one
who has to LIVE with the results. They have ever RIGHT to be demanding
and picky. You can choose not to work for them but at least be man
enough to tell them you don't want to instead of being a lowlife liar
that leaves them hanging.

You missed the entire point you ignorant asshole.
PLONK!

MisterSkippy wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:28:48 GMT, User Example
wrote:


MisterSkippy wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Sometimes, yes, "these guys" do have so much work. It depends on the
potential customer. Sometimes I'll get a call from someone who starts
breaking my chops and conducting an inquisition before I have even
seen the job. They'll demand a firm estimate over the phone to be
followed up by the FREE written estimate, the scheduling of which is
to be at their convenience regardless of my work schedule. Before I've
even seen the job they demand chapter and verse about how the job will
actually be done and what materials will be used.
Anyone who is any good doesn't need that kind of customer. They have
plenty of work. I just thank them for calling and tell them I'll get
back to them when I can assure them of a firm appointment for an
estimate. Then I just forget about them. Life's too short.
Did I describe you?

Although you don't want these kinds of customers I can probably tell you
that these types of customers probably don't want you either. You just
said that you tell them you will call them back but then you just forget
about them. That tells me that (1) you are a liar and (2) you don't
have much respect for your customers.

The reason some customers make such demands is because there are a lot
of contractors out there who show up, do crappy work, and then cash the
pay check before the customer has time to figure out that the work that
was done was sloppy and needs to be fixed. Then when they try to get
the contractor to come back and fix it they get the runaround of "that's
the way it is supposed to be" or "that's as good as I can get it based
on what you have" or "you should have said something before I left the
worksite".

The customer is the one PAYING to get the work done and they are the one
who has to LIVE with the results. They have ever RIGHT to be demanding
and picky. You can choose not to work for them but at least be man
enough to tell them you don't want to instead of being a lowlife liar
that leaves them hanging.


You missed the entire point you ignorant asshole.
PLONK!

No, you did.

In article , User Example says...

MisterSkippy wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Sometimes, yes, "these guys" do have so much work. It depends on the
potential customer. Sometimes I'll get a call from someone who starts
breaking my chops and conducting an inquisition before I have even
seen the job. They'll demand a firm estimate over the phone to be
followed up by the FREE written estimate, the scheduling of which is
to be at their convenience regardless of my work schedule. Before I've
even seen the job they demand chapter and verse about how the job will
actually be done and what materials will be used.
Anyone who is any good doesn't need that kind of customer. They have
plenty of work. I just thank them for calling and tell them I'll get
back to them when I can assure them of a firm appointment for an
estimate. Then I just forget about them. Life's too short.
Did I describe you?

Although you don't want these kinds of customers I can probably tell you
that these types of customers probably don't want you either. You just
said that you tell them you will call them back but then you just forget
about them. That tells me that (1) you are a liar and (2) you don't
have much respect for your customers.

The reason some customers make such demands is because there are a lot
of contractors out there who show up, do crappy work, and then cash the
pay check before the customer has time to figure out that the work that
was done was sloppy and needs to be fixed. Then when they try to get
the contractor to come back and fix it they get the runaround of "that's
the way it is supposed to be" or "that's as good as I can get it based
on what you have" or "you should have said something before I left the
worksite".

If you do all of your own work, how do you 'know' this stuff??

IME and IMNSHO as a homeowner, I've found contractors to be pretty good, even
excellent. That's probably because I go through word-of-mouth when I can, and,
even if not say for a small job, I can tell who is good and who isn't. And
approach the whole thing as something of a partnership.

Maybe you have a problem dealing with people that prevents you from making these
connections and observations.


The customer is the one PAYING to get the work done and they are the one
who has to LIVE with the results. They have ever RIGHT to be demanding
and picky. You can choose not to work for them but at least be man
enough to tell them you don't want to instead of being a lowlife liar
that leaves them hanging.




See -you **** people off right and left.

Banty

Banty wrote:
In article , User Example says...

MisterSkippy wrote:

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



Do these guys really have so much
work that they can be this way with potential customers?


Sometimes, yes, "these guys" do have so much work. It depends on the
potential customer. Sometimes I'll get a call from someone who starts
breaking my chops and conducting an inquisition before I have even
seen the job. They'll demand a firm estimate over the phone to be
followed up by the FREE written estimate, the scheduling of which is
to be at their convenience regardless of my work schedule. Before I've
even seen the job they demand chapter and verse about how the job will
actually be done and what materials will be used.
Anyone who is any good doesn't need that kind of customer. They have
plenty of work. I just thank them for calling and tell them I'll get
back to them when I can assure them of a firm appointment for an
estimate. Then I just forget about them. Life's too short.
Did I describe you?

Although you don't want these kinds of customers I can probably tell you
that these types of customers probably don't want you either. You just
said that you tell them you will call them back but then you just forget
about them. That tells me that (1) you are a liar and (2) you don't
have much respect for your customers.

The reason some customers make such demands is because there are a lot
of contractors out there who show up, do crappy work, and then cash the
pay check before the customer has time to figure out that the work that
was done was sloppy and needs to be fixed. Then when they try to get
the contractor to come back and fix it they get the runaround of "that's
the way it is supposed to be" or "that's as good as I can get it based
on what you have" or "you should have said something before I left the
worksite".


If you do all of your own work, how do you 'know' this stuff??

IME and IMNSHO as a homeowner, I've found contractors to be pretty good, even
excellent. That's probably because I go through word-of-mouth when I can, and,
even if not say for a small job, I can tell who is good and who isn't. And
approach the whole thing as something of a partnership.

Maybe you have a problem dealing with people that prevents you from making these
connections and observations.


Actually, my guess is that you are like many others who can't tell good
work from bad work and that you get screwed over and don't know about it.