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  #1   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 03:25 PM
Martin Evans
 
Posts: n/a
Default New condensing boiler installation - truth or lies

I've had a British Gas man around today to quote for a new condensing
boiler. My existing set up is:

o boiler - very old - over 25 years, wall mounted. Flue straight out
back to outside above head height (about 5-6ft to next doors house).
o gavity fed hot water with thermostat on tank, controlling valve
(motor currently broken so manually fixed open although I have a new
motor for it) and boiler
o water tank in loft feeding central heating
o one room thermostat in hall
o most (not all) radiators with TRVs - radiator in hall where room
thermostat is located does have a TRV.
o newish (3 years) programmable controller with separate CH and HW
settings and 1 hour, overrides.
o relatively new (3 years) myson cp53 pump.

During the conversation he told me:

1. it is against the law to not fit condensing boilers now.
From other postings this would seem true.

2. They would remove the room thermostat as it was bad to have it in a
room where radiators have TRVs.
Other posts to this group seem to suggest having a room thermo is OK
but not to have TRVs in the same room.

3. When I said I wasn't sure if we had a bypass and if we went all
TRVs I thought we'd need one he said all their condensing boilers come
with a built in bypass.

4. Regarding placement on the boiler he said manufacturer specs said
their must be at least 600mm space in front of the boiler although it
was OK in a cupboard so long as with the doors open their was 600mm in
front. As a result he suggested installing it around the corner from
where it is now.

5. Our gas meter was not earthed and so they would have to earth it
all. I'm not this is true since I remember a large earthing strap
behind the gas meter where the pipes come into the house - I cannot
investigate this now.

6. condensate from new boiler was not a problem since the boiler will
be sited next to a soil pipe.

7. our system was wrong be cause there is not at least 1.5m between
the top of the boiler and where the pipes go into the cylinder. This
would cause our boiler to switch on and off alot when only heating hot
water.

8. conversion from gravity fed to fully pumped was a time consuming
process. Some sort of air valve would have to be installed - I'm not
sure exactly about this. The system would have to be fully pumped
which mean installation ot 2 new valves and pump.

9. It was around 3 days work.

10. the quote left has a "the effects of pluming have been explained"
but they never were.

11. He criticised the current electrical installation a lot. Wrong
cable used throughout - should all be flex - and told me a horror
story about a house fire near us caused by wrong electrical
installation where the insurers were not fully paying out after
identifying sub standard electrical fitment of halogen lighting.

12. When I asked how he would calculate what size of boiler we'd need
he said he didn't need to as it would be a modulating condensing
boiler which constantly monitors the exit and return water temperature
and adjusts automatically. I did not think this was a satisfactory
answer since clearly if he fitted a 1KW boiler it would not sufficient
(absurd example I know).

Needless to say I was less than impressed but then came the:

Total quote was for 3498 including VAT (and 100 trade in discount)
with some significant numbers being (not including VAT):

British/Scottish Gas 330 HE Condensing Boilrer (inc labour and
installation) 1559
specialist building work (3) 174
can't imagine what this was other than repositioning flue
connect boiler electrics and test 64
glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154
glow-worm Xi flue extension (500mm) 28
glow-worm Xi 90 flue elbow 31
radiator valves (15mm angled W/H & L/S) 26
Now he has left I don't understand this as we never spoke about
adding radiators or valves.
controls pack (2*22mm 2Port) Prog. (UP1) 307
convert to fully pumped 22mm (5mtr head) 312
powerlush - 195
install ME bonding 112
exectrical and mechanical supp bonding 79

there was other stuff like waster disposal, pipe insulation, fit pipe
insulation etc.

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler - seemed pricey to me.

Any useful comments?

Martin
--
Martin J. Evans
Wetherby, UK

  #2   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 03:38 PM
BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Martin Evans" wrote in message
...
I've had a British Gas man around today to quote for a new condensing
boiler. My existing set up is:

o boiler - very old - over 25 years, wall mounted. Flue straight out
back to outside above head height (about 5-6ft to next doors house).
o gavity fed hot water with thermostat on tank, controlling valve
(motor currently broken so manually fixed open although I have a new
motor for it) and boiler

snipped
Martin J. Evans
Wetherby, UK


What type of guarantees do you get with all this? Are they also providing
break-down cover for the first X amount of years on the whole installation?

Have you checked out the price of the boiler on the web?


  #3   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 03:50 PM
Tony Bryer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Martin Evans
wrote:
British/Scottish Gas 330 HE Condensing Boilrer (inc labour and
installation) 1559
specialist building work (3) 174
can't imagine what this was other than repositioning flue
connect boiler electrics and test 64
glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154
glow-worm Xi flue extension (500mm) 28
glow-worm Xi 90 flue elbow 31

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler


I think that we may presume from the above that he's proposing a
rebadged Glow-worm. A Glow-worm 30Hxi is 795 including VAT at

http://www.discountheating.com/wallc...lgas/30hxi.htm

Whether you need 213 of flue extensions is doubtful

- seemed pricey to me.


Seems typical BG gas price to regular readers here

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]


  #4   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 03:58 PM
Martin Evans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:38:36 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Martin Evans" wrote in message
.. .
I've had a British Gas man around today to quote for a new condensing
boiler. My existing set up is:

o boiler - very old - over 25 years, wall mounted. Flue straight out
back to outside above head height (about 5-6ft to next doors house).
o gavity fed hot water with thermostat on tank, controlling valve
(motor currently broken so manually fixed open although I have a new
motor for it) and boiler

snipped
Martin J. Evans
Wetherby, UK


What type of guarantees do you get with all this? Are they also providing
break-down cover for the first X amount of years on the whole installation?


I think he said 3 years included but I can't find that info in the
quote.

Have you checked out the price of the boiler on the web?


The boiler is exclusive to British Gas - The British Gas 330, so I
can't find it elsewhere - unless someone else knows better.

Martin
--
Martin J. Evans
Wetherby, UK
  #5   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 04:34 PM
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1. it is against the law to not fit condensing boilers now.
From other postings this would seem true.


Well, there are exceptions, but these are unlikely to apply to you,.

2. They would remove the room thermostat as it was bad to have it in a
room where radiators have TRVs.
Other posts to this group seem to suggest having a room thermo is OK
but not to have TRVs in the same room.


You need a "boiler interlock" that completely turns off the boiler when the
house is hot. Normally this is supplied by the room thermostat. If there is
none, another method must be used, such as a flow switch on the heating
circuit. Did the installer indicate how boiler interlock was intended to be
achieved?

3. When I said I wasn't sure if we had a bypass and if we went all
TRVs I thought we'd need one he said all their condensing boilers come
with a built in bypass.


Without knowing all the boilers they supply, it isn't possible to say. Some
boilers have internal bypass, some don't. However, there's no reason to
disbelieve, really. You'd need one even without all TRV, as you are going
S-Plan.

4. Regarding placement on the boiler he said manufacturer specs said
their must be at least 600mm space in front of the boiler although it
was OK in a cupboard so long as with the doors open their was 600mm in
front. As a result he suggested installing it around the corner from
where it is now.


Sounds normal, assuming the move around the corner is to improve aesthetics,
or flue location.

6. condensate from new boiler was not a problem since the boiler will
be sited next to a soil pipe.


Sounds good. Better than some where they use a "soak away", which is a
euphemism for sticking a bare pipe out of the wall which rots away your
patio.

7. our system was wrong be cause there is not at least 1.5m between
the top of the boiler and where the pipes go into the cylinder. This
would cause our boiler to switch on and off alot when only heating hot
water.


The vertical height of the boiler and cylinder is no longer relevent, as the
system MUST be converted to fully pumped by law. Fully pumped systems don't
care about heights.

8. conversion from gravity fed to fully pumped was a time consuming
process. Some sort of air valve would have to be installed - I'm not
sure exactly about this. The system would have to be fully pumped
which mean installation ot 2 new valves and pump.


There are other methods, but the 2 valves and the pump is one of the most
common, simplest and reliable. It is called 'S' Plan. Some of the conversion
will be to make it a sealed pressurised system, rather than gravity fed.
This is well worth doing.

9. It was around 3 days work.


Could well be.

10. the quote left has a "the effects of pluming have been explained"
but they never were.


The exhaust terminal will shoot out loads of visible steam, especially in
winter. This may seriously annoy the neighbours, even though the exhaust is
actually cleaner and less poisonous that the invisible plume of older
boilers.

11. He criticised the current electrical installation a lot. Wrong
cable used throughout - should all be flex


There is no need for the cabling to be flex. Indeed, apart from the final
connections to any immersion heaters, external pumps or zone valves, fixed
T&E wiring is actually superior. Flex is often used because it is easy to
get multicore versions which are more convenient, though.

- and told me a horror story about a house fire near us caused by
wrong electrical installation where the insurers were not fully
paying out after identifying sub standard electrical fitment of
halogen lighting.


Ignore friend of a friend horror stories. Almost certainly not true.

12. When I asked how he would calculate what size of boiler we'd need
he said he didn't need to as it would be a modulating condensing
boiler which constantly monitors the exit and return water temperature
and adjusts automatically. I did not think this was a satisfactory
answer since clearly if he fitted a 1KW boiler it would not sufficient
(absurd example I know).


He is actually correct. Most modern condensing boilers have a much greater
maximum output than any normal house requires. (Some manufacturers have
recently produced throttled back versions that might struggle on a big
house, though). You need to have a 10 bedroom 1660s place with no glass in
the windows to exceed the capability. (Well not, quite, but if the
calculation did show a bigger boiler was needed, the correct approach is to
fix the house insulation, not fit a bigger boiler).

Total quote was for 3498 including VAT (and 100 trade in discount)
with some significant numbers being (not including VAT):


Not actually that bad for a BG quote. Still much higher than a good local
engineer, but not in their normal stratispheric regions, given that the
quote includes lots of additional work to the actual boiler swap, such as
the fully pumped version, movement of the boiler, updating of controls etc.

glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154


The Glowworm HXI/CXi/SXi is the boiler that is currently rescuing Glowworm's
reputation. It is certainly not scraping the barrel by going for a cheap
boiler.

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler - seemed pricey to me.


Well, BG always give the most expensive quote. Make sure you phone round
some local non-chain places.

Christian.




  #6   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 04:34 PM
EricP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:25:01 GMT, Martin Evans
babbled like a waterfall and said:

I've had a British Gas man around today to quote for a new condensing
boiler.
I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler - seemed pricey to me.

Any useful comments?

Martin


Yes, been down the same amusing road. Get anybody else to quote and
you should knock 1000 off the job. Get three people to quote and you
should arrive at a fair price.
Put the BG stuff in the bin.

  #7   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 04:48 PM
Martin Evans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:50:40 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Martin Evans
wrote:
British/Scottish Gas 330 HE Condensing Boilrer (inc labour and
installation) 1559
specialist building work (3) 174
can't imagine what this was other than repositioning flue
connect boiler electrics and test 64
glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154
glow-worm Xi flue extension (500mm) 28
glow-worm Xi 90 flue elbow 31

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler


I think that we may presume from the above that he's proposing a
rebadged Glow-worm. A Glow-worm 30Hxi is 795 including VAT at

http://www.discountheating.com/wallc...lgas/30hxi.htm


Thanks for that - it helps to know what the boiler might be. All I
have is some marketing stuff from BG telling me how good it is. SEDBUK
A rated, NOX class 5 emissions, SS heat exchanger, on board
diagnostics, "Continua" electronics allowing the boiler to continue
where others may fail (hmm), adjustable for my future radiator needs,
frost protection.

Whether you need 213 of flue extensions is doubtful


I didn't get that either. The boiler is only moving round an inside
corner so it will be less than 0.5m from the outside wall and 213 +
VAT for flue extensions seemed rediculous.

- seemed pricey to me.


Seems typical BG gas price to regular readers here


Thanks for th response.

Martin
--
Martin J. Evans
Wetherby, UK
  #8   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 05:08 PM
Martin Evans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chistian,

Thanks for the info.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:34:30 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

1. it is against the law to not fit condensing boilers now.
From other postings this would seem true.


Well, there are exceptions, but these are unlikely to apply to you,.


So I gather. It would be really difficult to argue in my case.

2. They would remove the room thermostat as it was bad to have it in a
room where radiators have TRVs.
Other posts to this group seem to suggest having a room thermo is OK
but not to have TRVs in the same room.


You need a "boiler interlock" that completely turns off the boiler when the
house is hot. Normally this is supplied by the room thermostat. If there is
none, another method must be used, such as a flow switch on the heating
circuit. Did the installer indicate how boiler interlock was intended to be
achieved?


Not that I recall. A question I'll ask of him.

3. When I said I wasn't sure if we had a bypass and if we went all
TRVs I thought we'd need one he said all their condensing boilers come
with a built in bypass.


Without knowing all the boilers they supply, it isn't possible to say. Some
boilers have internal bypass, some don't. However, there's no reason to
disbelieve, really. You'd need one even without all TRV, as you are going
S-Plan.

4. Regarding placement on the boiler he said manufacturer specs said
their must be at least 600mm space in front of the boiler although it
was OK in a cupboard so long as with the doors open their was 600mm in
front. As a result he suggested installing it around the corner from
where it is now.


Sounds normal, assuming the move around the corner is to improve aesthetics,
or flue location.


Actually moving it round the corner increases flue length. The problem
occurs because the current boiler is on an end wall right up to a
boxed vertical section carrying the soil pipe, other pipes and pump.
On the other side of the corner my wife wants two double wardrobes and
if the boiler was replaced in the current position there would only be
29cm space in front of the bolier. He suggested putting the boiler on
the wall to carry the wardrobes inside one of them. I assumed the
corner flue piece he quoted for was to take the flue round to the
existing flue exit hole which is why I was also questioning the
"specialist building work".

6. condensate from new boiler was not a problem since the boiler will
be sited next to a soil pipe.


Sounds good. Better than some where they use a "soak away", which is a
euphemism for sticking a bare pipe out of the wall which rots away your
patio.

7. our system was wrong be cause there is not at least 1.5m between
the top of the boiler and where the pipes go into the cylinder. This
would cause our boiler to switch on and off alot when only heating hot
water.


The vertical height of the boiler and cylinder is no longer relevent, as the
system MUST be converted to fully pumped by law. Fully pumped systems don't
care about heights.


He didn't explain it must be converted to fully pumped he made it
sound like our system was wrong and the new one would overcome this
error.

8. conversion from gravity fed to fully pumped was a time consuming
process. Some sort of air valve would have to be installed - I'm not
sure exactly about this. The system would have to be fully pumped
which mean installation ot 2 new valves and pump.


There are other methods, but the 2 valves and the pump is one of the most
common, simplest and reliable. It is called 'S' Plan. Some of the conversion
will be to make it a sealed pressurised system, rather than gravity fed.
This is well worth doing.


I think this is where this "air vent thingy" come in - it was
something to do with keeping our system open. He definitely said they
would not be converting it to sealed system because some of the
pipework is in concrete and a leak would be a big problem.

9. It was around 3 days work.


Could well be.

10. the quote left has a "the effects of pluming have been explained"
but they never were.


The exhaust terminal will shoot out loads of visible steam, especially in
winter. This may seriously annoy the neighbours, even though the exhaust is
actually cleaner and less poisonous that the invisible plume of older
boilers.


"shoot out" does not sound so good. It is less than 3' to a fence and
then less than 3' to my neighbours house with the fence lower than the
vent. Shooting out whilst someone is walking down the side of the
house (either on my side or my neighbours) wouldn't be good.

11. He criticised the current electrical installation a lot. Wrong
cable used throughout - should all be flex


There is no need for the cabling to be flex. Indeed, apart from the final
connections to any immersion heaters, external pumps or zone valves, fixed
T&E wiring is actually superior. Flex is often used because it is easy to
get multicore versions which are more convenient, though.


The valve behind the cylinder is connected to a junction box by T&E.
From here 2 T&E come down to another juntion box where flex goes off
to the boiler and programmer. The immersion heater is flex. It was the
T&E down the boxed section from my airing cupboard to the jn box below
he specifically tutted at.

- and told me a horror story about a house fire near us caused by
wrong electrical installation where the insurers were not fully
paying out after identifying sub standard electrical fitment of
halogen lighting.


Ignore friend of a friend horror stories. Almost certainly not true.

12. When I asked how he would calculate what size of boiler we'd need
he said he didn't need to as it would be a modulating condensing
boiler which constantly monitors the exit and return water temperature
and adjusts automatically. I did not think this was a satisfactory
answer since clearly if he fitted a 1KW boiler it would not sufficient
(absurd example I know).


He is actually correct. Most modern condensing boilers have a much greater
maximum output than any normal house requires. (Some manufacturers have
recently produced throttled back versions that might struggle on a big
house, though). You need to have a 10 bedroom 1660s place with no glass in
the windows to exceed the capability. (Well not, quite, but if the
calculation did show a bigger boiler was needed, the correct approach is to
fix the house insulation, not fit a bigger boiler).


That is very good to know. This one worried me the most.

Total quote was for 3498 including VAT (and 100 trade in discount)
with some significant numbers being (not including VAT):


Not actually that bad for a BG quote. Still much higher than a good local
engineer, but not in their normal stratispheric regions, given that the
quote includes lots of additional work to the actual boiler swap, such as
the fully pumped version, movement of the boiler, updating of controls etc.

glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154


The Glowworm HXI/CXi/SXi is the boiler that is currently rescuing Glowworm's
reputation. It is certainly not scraping the barrel by going for a cheap
boiler.

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler - seemed pricey to me.


Well, BG always give the most expensive quote. Make sure you phone round
some local non-chain places.


Have done so.

Thanks again. Your post has helped sort a few things out for me.

Martin
--
Martin J. Evans
Wetherby, UK
  #9   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 05:26 PM
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:25:01 GMT, Martin Evans
wrote:

I've had a British Gas man around today to quote for a new condensing
boiler. My existing set up is:

o boiler - very old - over 25 years, wall mounted. Flue straight out
back to outside above head height (about 5-6ft to next doors house).
o gavity fed hot water with thermostat on tank, controlling valve
(motor currently broken so manually fixed open although I have a new
motor for it) and boiler
o water tank in loft feeding central heating
o one room thermostat in hall
o most (not all) radiators with TRVs - radiator in hall where room
thermostat is located does have a TRV.
o newish (3 years) programmable controller with separate CH and HW
settings and 1 hour, overrides.
o relatively new (3 years) myson cp53 pump.

During the conversation he told me:

1. it is against the law to not fit condensing boilers now.
From other postings this would seem true.


Generally this is the case. There is a system for exceptions based on
location and work involved to site a condensing boiler which applies
points to a number of difficulty issues. However, if it is a
replacement for an existing wall mount boiler then you are unlikely to
meet the exclusion criteria.




2. They would remove the room thermostat as it was bad to have it in a
room where radiators have TRVs.
Other posts to this group seem to suggest having a room thermo is OK
but not to have TRVs in the same room.


There has to be a means of locking out the boiler when the heating for
the house is satisfied and this normally does mean a room thermostat.
It should not be in a room containing radiators with TRVs because the
two will tend to fight. The correct solution is to remove the TRVs
not the room thermostat, although the latter could probably usefully
be changed to an electronic optimising type.



3. When I said I wasn't sure if we had a bypass and if we went all
TRVs I thought we'd need one he said all their condensing boilers come
with a built in bypass.


Many do, and possibly all the ones that they sell, but I am not sure
that this is universally the case. The manufacturer installation
instructions will specify whether a bypass is needed or not.




4. Regarding placement on the boiler he said manufacturer specs said
their must be at least 600mm space in front of the boiler although it
was OK in a cupboard so long as with the doors open their was 600mm in
front. As a result he suggested installing it around the corner from
where it is now.


The manufacturer's installation instructions are the definitive source
of space requirements.



5. Our gas meter was not earthed and so they would have to earth it
all. I'm not this is true since I remember a large earthing strap
behind the gas meter where the pipes come into the house - I cannot
investigate this now.


There should be electrical bonding from the meter to the main earthing
point in the house. The gas supply should not be used as the
electrical earth.


6. condensate from new boiler was not a problem since the boiler will
be sited next to a soil pipe.


Correct. It needs some from of suitable entry into it, though.



7. our system was wrong be cause there is not at least 1.5m between
the top of the boiler and where the pipes go into the cylinder. This
would cause our boiler to switch on and off alot when only heating hot
water.


If the existing system is using "gravity" circulation to heat the HW
cylinder then the vertical vs. horizontal pipe runs can matter.
However, modern boilers, expecially in a new system like this are used
fully pumped so it doesn't matter.




8. conversion from gravity fed to fully pumped was a time consuming
process. Some sort of air valve would have to be installed - I'm not
sure exactly about this. The system would have to be fully pumped
which mean installation ot 2 new valves and pump.


Waffle. It might be worth installing a new fast recovery cylinder to
make the most of the pumped arrangement.




9. It was around 3 days work.


Could be.


10. the quote left has a "the effects of pluming have been explained"
but they never were.


You may get a plume of water vapour from the boiler flue under certain
conditions. These are typically most noticable when the boiler runs
flat out on a cold day. If the flue is facing the neighbour's
boundary and is close to it, then this may be an issue. However there
are flue types for some boilers that can be routed over several metres
and can exit in a completely different place. Some can even be 50mm
high temperature waste pipe. Of course BG might not have these on
their list.





11. He criticised the current electrical installation a lot. Wrong
cable used throughout - should all be flex - and told me a horror
story about a house fire near us caused by wrong electrical
installation where the insurers were not fully paying out after
identifying sub standard electrical fitment of halogen lighting.


Possibly. Certain cables should be flexible types. However, the way
it's described sounds more like FUD to justify higher quote.



12. When I asked how he would calculate what size of boiler we'd need
he said he didn't need to as it would be a modulating condensing
boiler which constantly monitors the exit and return water temperature
and adjusts automatically. I did not think this was a satisfactory
answer since clearly if he fitted a 1KW boiler it would not sufficient
(absurd example I know).


To an extent that's true. If the current boiler is adequately heating
the house, then fitting one having somewhat more capacity is fine.
They do modulate their output over a wide range.




Needless to say I was less than impressed but then came the:

Total quote was for 3498 including VAT (and 100 trade in discount)
with some significant numbers being (not including VAT):

British/Scottish Gas 330 HE Condensing Boilrer (inc labour and
installation) 1559
specialist building work (3) 174
can't imagine what this was other than repositioning flue
connect boiler electrics and test 64
glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154
glow-worm Xi flue extension (500mm) 28
glow-worm Xi 90 flue elbow 31
radiator valves (15mm angled W/H & L/S) 26
Now he has left I don't understand this as we never spoke about
adding radiators or valves.
controls pack (2*22mm 2Port) Prog. (UP1) 307
convert to fully pumped 22mm (5mtr head) 312
powerlush - 195
install ME bonding 112
exectrical and mechanical supp bonding 79

there was other stuff like waster disposal, pipe insulation, fit pipe
insulation etc.

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler - seemed pricey to me.

Any useful comments?

It is a high quote for this. It doesn't really matter how they've
carved it up, the overall price is what is important.
I would have thought that 2000 was nearer to a reasonable target for
a good boiler and the works described - more if you change the
cylinder, and I would suggest that, because the water will re-heat
faster and the boiler can return to heating the house sooner. With
most control arrangements, the HW has priority over the CH, so you
really want to heat the water quickly (it is more efficient if you can
transfer a lot of heat quickly) and then return to CH.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

  #10   Report Post  
Old June 17th 05, 05:28 PM
John Rumm
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin Evans wrote:

1. it is against the law to not fit condensing boilers now.
From other postings this would seem true.


Mostly true... from the sounds of your setup it is not worth worrying
about the possible get out clauses.

2. They would remove the room thermostat as it was bad to have it in a
room where radiators have TRVs.
Other posts to this group seem to suggest having a room thermo is OK
but not to have TRVs in the same room.


Personally I would change the room stat to a programmable one and remove
the TRV. You still need some form of interlock to shut off the boiler
when the whole house is warm.

3. When I said I wasn't sure if we had a bypass and if we went all
TRVs I thought we'd need one he said all their condensing boilers come
with a built in bypass.


Could well be true for theirs...

4. Regarding placement on the boiler he said manufacturer specs said
their must be at least 600mm space in front of the boiler although it
was OK in a cupboard so long as with the doors open their was 600mm in
front. As a result he suggested installing it around the corner from
where it is now.


Just so you can get the case off basically. Can you not do that in the
current location?

5. Our gas meter was not earthed and so they would have to earth it
all. I'm not this is true since I remember a large earthing strap
behind the gas meter where the pipes come into the house - I cannot
investigate this now.


The service bonding ought to be done on the consumer side of the meter
rather than the supply as used to be the case.

6. condensate from new boiler was not a problem since the boiler will
be sited next to a soil pipe.

7. our system was wrong be cause there is not at least 1.5m between
the top of the boiler and where the pipes go into the cylinder. This
would cause our boiler to switch on and off alot when only heating hot
water.


This sounds like he is confusing a bit of old gravity fed sales
patter... for a fully pumped setup it will make no difference.

It might be worth investigating a new fast recovery cylinder however. If
you current one is old, remember the things don't last forever. A fast
recovery one will also be able to swallow more of the boilers output.
THe modulating function of the boiler however ought to prevent cycling
anyway.

8. conversion from gravity fed to fully pumped was a time consuming
process. Some sort of air valve would have to be installed - I'm not
sure exactly about this. The system would have to be fully pumped
which mean installation ot 2 new valves and pump.

9. It was around 3 days work.


Sounds plausable - depending on what pipework needs doing. Took me about
4 days, but that included stripping out all the old tanks as well.

10. the quote left has a "the effects of pluming have been explained"
but they never were.


Like Christain said...

11. He criticised the current electrical installation a lot. Wrong
cable used throughout - should all be flex - and told me a horror
story about a house fire near us caused by wrong electrical
installation where the insurers were not fully paying out after
identifying sub standard electrical fitment of halogen lighting.


You can ignore that I would guess.

12. When I asked how he would calculate what size of boiler we'd need
he said he didn't need to as it would be a modulating condensing
boiler which constantly monitors the exit and return water temperature
and adjusts automatically. I did not think this was a satisfactory
answer since clearly if he fitted a 1KW boiler it would not sufficient
(absurd example I know).


Since you are not looking at a combi where the output power will
directly dictate your hot water flow rate, it is less of an issue. As
long as you have "enough" the modulation will make a decent job of
matching the actual output to the demand. It is sometimes more useful to
ask what the lowest power output of the boiler is. Ones that can
modulate right down to 4 or 5kW being better than ones that only go down
to say 12.

Needless to say I was less than impressed but then came the:

Total quote was for 3498 including VAT (and 100 trade in discount)
with some significant numbers being (not including VAT):


For BG that sounds cheap... 5.5 would be closer to their normal!

British/Scottish Gas 330 HE Condensing Boilrer (inc labour and
installation) 1559


Probably fair for the boiler on its own...

specialist building work (3) 174


But you would expect this to be included in the above...

can't imagine what this was other than repositioning flue
connect boiler electrics and test 64


and this

glow-worm Xi std horizontal flue (800mm) 154
glow-worm Xi flue extension (500mm) 28
glow-worm Xi 90 flue elbow 31


probably don't need those - especially if you keep it in the current
location.

radiator valves (15mm angled W/H & L/S) 26
Now he has left I don't understand this as we never spoke about
adding radiators or valves.


He may be talking about replacing the old lockshied valves with new
ones. Some of the older ones can weep when converted to pressurised
operation.

controls pack (2*22mm 2Port) Prog. (UP1) 307


Sounds a bit much...

convert to fully pumped 22mm (5mtr head) 312


hmmmm...

powerlush - 195


perhaps

install ME bonding 112


excessive...

exectrical and mechanical supp bonding 79


excessive...

there was other stuff like waster disposal, pipe insulation, fit pipe
insulation etc.

I was somewhat surprised by the size of the quote and the cost of the
boiler - seemed pricey to me.

Any useful comments?


I would have thought something closer to 2k would be more like it....


--
Cheers,

John.

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