It's a gusty day. I was in a house across the street when a light
flickered for two seconds. Digital equipment in three rooms had to be
reset: microwave, answering machine, computer, and television.

I've always assumed such flickering comes from arcing in a transmission
line, but digital clocks in two other rooms were not affected. The same
transformer supplies my house, and none of my digital equipment was affected.

What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?

Choreboy

The clocks probably have battery back-up so that the alarm will not be reset
if the outage comes when you are sleeping.

Some other equipment had large enough storage capacity for the power supply
so that it will survive a brief outage without resetting.

Charlie

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
It's a gusty day. I was in a house across the street when a light
flickered for two seconds. Digital equipment in three rooms had to be
reset: microwave, answering machine, computer, and television.

I've always assumed such flickering comes from arcing in a transmission
line, but digital clocks in two other rooms were not affected. The same
transformer supplies my house, and none of my digital equipment was
affected.

What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?

Choreboy

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:22:50 -0500, Choreboy wrote:

What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?

Probably a bad ground in your breaker box. Look for discoloration.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

it is possible that one side of the 240 went out and not the other but
noy likely

most probably the outage was long enough to reset some but not all

Mark

"Mark" wrote in message
oups.com...
it is possible that one side of the 240 went out and not the other but
noy likely

most probably the outage was long enough to reset some but not all


Many electronic devices will have filter capacitors in the power supply and
so it will take some amount of time for the dc buss voltage to drop when
input power source is disconnected.

--

SVL

Choreboy wrote:
It's a gusty day. I was in a house across the street when a light
flickered for two seconds. Digital equipment in three rooms had to be
reset: microwave, answering machine, computer, and television.

I've always assumed such flickering comes from arcing in a transmission
line, but digital clocks in two other rooms were not affected. The same
transformer supplies my house, and none of my digital equipment was affected.

What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?

Choreboy

Probably the difference in the electronics. I
have one VCR that always require a reset with an
interruption and another VCR that isn't usually
bothered. Same applies to some other electronics.

That house may have a loose feed it is something your utility will check
and fix free even on sunday as it can damage electronics. I had that
problem. The clocks probably have battery backup.

Choreboy wrote:
It's a gusty day. I was in a house across the street when a light
flickered for two seconds. Digital equipment in three rooms had to be
reset: microwave, answering machine, computer, and television.

I've always assumed such flickering comes from arcing in a
transmission line, but digital clocks in two other rooms were not
affected. The same transformer supplies my house, and none of my
digital equipment was affected.

What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?

Choreboy

I suggest that you may want to invest into some whole house surge
protectors in addition to any point source protection you now have or may
add. That kind of problem can be an indication of possible surge problems.
Most newer equipment is less sensitive to surge issues and they also are
better able to maintain a few seconds of outage and still maintain their
internal memory. I suspect what you found was that some of your equipment
is older or of low quality than those that maintained their time.


--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Choreboy wrote:

It's a gusty day. I was in a house across the street when a light
flickered for two seconds. Digital equipment in three rooms had to be
reset: microwave, answering machine, computer, and television.

I've always assumed such flickering comes from arcing in a transmission
line, but digital clocks in two other rooms were not affected. The same
transformer supplies my house, and none of my digital equipment was affected.

What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?

Choreboy

The problem might be local to that house, such as a bad connection in
the service drop. Also, some electronic equipment will withstand a brief
interruption in power better than other equipment.

--
Tony Electric
http://dotznize.com/electric

The Reticulan Museum Of Unnatural History
http://ouchouch.com/fancy.html

m Ransley wrote:

That house may have a loose feed it is something your utility will check
and fix free even on sunday as it can damage electronics. I had that
problem. The clocks probably have battery backup.

The flickering of the ceiling light lasted long enough for the lady of
the house to ask, "What's that?" and me to turn around and see it.

After finding four electronic devices scrambled in three rooms, she
checked the bedroom clocks, saying they always go out if the power
flickers. They were fine. It makes sense that the breakers for the
side of the house with the problems would be on the same side of the
breaker box.

The same transformer supplies my house. I have computerized stuff
plugged into both sides of the line, and none was affected. However,
the line that supplies my neighbors supplies another neighbor, who says
she had to reset her electronics after her lights flickered at the same
time yesterday.

I guess it's a splice up above. I see a couple of popped splice covers
up there; maybe they overheated sometime due to resistance in the
connection. Could a bad splice have welded itself during the
flickering? As it didn't affect my service I suppose I shouldn't be the
one to report it. What would my neighbors risk by not reporting it?

Choreboy

You are making assumptions rather than first providing
facts. For example, how do you know breakers on one side of
the breaker box would be on same phase? When a 240 volt
breaker is installed, it provides both phases from same side
of that box. Why does this make sense:
... breakers for the side of the house with the problems
would be on the same side of the breaker box.
That is only speculation. It is responsible to ask why this
strange failure occurred. But it leads to nothing useful when
you assume.

What could have caused the problem? Let's see. I only
have one idea. Therefore that *IS MOST LIKELY* the reason for
your problem. Some others posted using this logic.

You have provided woefully insufficient information for
anyone to post a probably reason. But even worse, your own
posts are based in speculation. No wonder others posted using
only speculation as a probable reason.

Every electronic appliance has a unique cutoff voltage.
These are numbers so necessary to appreciate what happened.
Intel even states how low voltage can go and computer still
works just fine. Voltage so low that incandescent bulbs are
at less than 40% intensity. Other appliances may cut out at
higher voltages. Again, without that number or knowing which
phase each connected to, then no useful facts are available.
Tom MacIntyre once identified a 120 VAC TV that worked until
voltage dropped below 37 volts. All other electronics could
shutdown while the TV worked? What does that tell us about
household wiring? Nothing.

Every appliance must also work so many seconds after power is
lost - as both Mark and PrecisionMachinisT noted. Another
number that varies depending on that appliance's internal
design - and that was not provided. Just more reasons why
what did and did not work provides nothing useful.

You don't have numbers. Your facts are mostly speculation.
Don't speculate as other posters have done. To learn, at
minimum, you must measure voltages between wall receptacles
that did and did not lose voltage. If for no other reason to
learn which phase each receptacle is connected to - without
speculating.

Choreboy wrote:
The flickering of the ceiling light lasted long enough for the lady of
the house to ask, "What's that?" and me to turn around and see it.

After finding four electronic devices scrambled in three rooms, she
checked the bedroom clocks, saying they always go out if the power
flickers. They were fine. It makes sense that the breakers for the
side of the house with the problems would be on the same side of the
breaker box.

The same transformer supplies my house. I have computerized stuff
plugged into both sides of the line, and none was affected. However,
the line that supplies my neighbors supplies another neighbor, who says
she had to reset her electronics after her lights flickered at the same
time yesterday.

I guess it's a splice up above. I see a couple of popped splice covers
up there; maybe they overheated sometime due to resistance in the
connection. Could a bad splice have welded itself during the
flickering? As it didn't affect my service I suppose I shouldn't be the
one to report it. What would my neighbors risk by not reporting it?

Choreboy

w_tom wrote:



You have provided woefully insufficient information for
anyone to post a probably reason. But even worse, your own
posts are based in speculation. No wonder others posted using
only speculation as a probable reason.

That'a true. My neighbors don't have an instrument recording the
voltage at each outlet.

Every electronic appliance has a unique cutoff voltage.
These are numbers so necessary to appreciate what happened.
Intel even states how low voltage can go and computer still
works just fine. Voltage so low that incandescent bulbs are
at less than 40% intensity.

Do you mean visible light or total radiation? Why not say what voltage
you mean?

Other appliances may cut out at
higher voltages. Again, without that number or knowing which
phase each connected to, then no useful facts are available.

Here are facts. An interruption too brief to see even at night will
knock out my phone clock, microwave clock, and computer. The problem at
my neighbors' was conspicuous in daylight as the lights went on and off
for several seconds. My house was fine. I'd say the problem did not
affect the transformer output terminals.

Here's another fact. The reason my neighbor checked the bedrooms was
that in her experience, any time she had to reset the stuff on one side
she would also have to reset the bedroom clocks. She was amazed to find
them working.

Tom MacIntyre once identified a 120 VAC TV that worked until
voltage dropped below 37 volts. All other electronics could
shutdown while the TV worked? What does that tell us about
household wiring? Nothing.

My TV seems more sensitive when it's off. An interruption too brief to
stop my microwave clock will keep my TV from turning on later. I did
not have to reset it yesterday.

Every appliance must also work so many seconds after power is
lost - as both Mark and PrecisionMachinisT noted. Another
number that varies depending on that appliance's internal
design - and that was not provided. Just more reasons why
what did and did not work provides nothing useful.

Those appliances that work so many seconds without power could be
useful. How many seconds must they work? Are they expensive?

You don't have numbers. Your facts are mostly speculation.
Don't speculate as other posters have done. To learn, at
minimum, you must measure voltages between wall receptacles
that did and did not lose voltage. If for no other reason to
learn which phase each receptacle is connected to - without
speculating.

As a matter of fact, I was about to go over there with a DMM and an
extension cord this afternoon to check phases. Instead, I called a
neighbor who lives on the other side of them. She told me that when my
neighbors' lights flickered, so did hers. She had to restart her
computer and reset digital clocks.

By the process of elimination, I think that in the 50-mph gusts that had
been occuring that day, one of the splices feeding their houses got
worked into a high-resistance condition for a few seconds. Have you a
better explanation for the facts?

Choreboy

Rightly proper to look into this anomaly before it becomes
serious. If nothing else, fixing a problem before it happens
can only be a good thing. Using that extension cord and meter
does do one thing important. For example, proving all
interrupted devices were on one phase, then empowers a utility
crew to repeatedly check only one spot until they find
something. If ailed devices are on both phases, then the
utility crew is encouraged to on a neutral wire problem - a
failure that may eventually get destructive if not found.

IOW by obtaining that one little additional fact, then a
utility crew has better reason to play more aggressively
(concentrate their attention) only on those live wires that
can explain your 'unique' symptoms.

In specs for computers (for example), a 100% loaded computer
must keep working when power is lost for 16 msec. All will
typically keep working even longer. If voltage drops so low
that incandescent lumens are less than 40%, then a computer
must still work just fine. These are characteristics defined
by specs for computers. Other devices such as digital clocks
may not be so resilient. I said seconds. Not full seconds.
Milliseconds. Every device will keep working a fixed period
after power is completely lost. Some just work longer.
Computers tend to be some of the more resilient to dropouts.
Some clocks tend to withstand dropouts longer. Some clocks
may have a battery or internal capacitor so that short
interruptions don't bother them.

But again, determine if all 'interrupted' appliances are
only on one phase or both. A utility crew would be more
likely to aggressively shake the suspect live wire rather than
uselessly checking all. That information also tends to make
them more believe you do have an intermittent problem.

Choreboy wrote:
Here are facts. An interruption too brief to see even at night will
knock out my phone clock, microwave clock, and computer. The problem at
my neighbors' was conspicuous in daylight as the lights went on and off
for several seconds. My house was fine. I'd say the problem did not
affect the transformer output terminals.

Here's another fact. The reason my neighbor checked the bedrooms was
that in her experience, any time she had to reset the stuff on one side
she would also have to reset the bedroom clocks. She was amazed to find
them working.

Dan C wrote:

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:22:50 -0500, Choreboy wrote:



What could cause power fluctuations that would affect household
electronics on some circuits but not others?



Probably a bad ground in your breaker box. Look for discoloration.



Hi,
Some electronics device such as clock may have back up battery within,
some has big storage cap. inside which will ride out
momentary flicker.
Tony

Oh no, 240! The affected outlets represent both sides of the
transformer! There goes my speculation of a loose splice on a secondary
line. I don't know why so much in two houses had to be reset but
everything at my house was fine.

(It's been years since I looked inside a breaker box. That's why at
first it seemed natural to me that all the switches on one side would
come from the same side of the 240-V supply.)

w_tom wrote:

Rightly proper to look into this anomaly before it becomes
serious. If nothing else, fixing a problem before it happens
can only be a good thing. Using that extension cord and meter
does do one thing important. For example, proving all
interrupted devices were on one phase, then empowers a utility
crew to repeatedly check only one spot until they find
something. If ailed devices are on both phases, then the
utility crew is encouraged to on a neutral wire problem - a
failure that may eventually get destructive if not found.

IOW by obtaining that one little additional fact, then a
utility crew has better reason to play more aggressively
(concentrate their attention) only on those live wires that
can explain your 'unique' symptoms.

In specs for computers (for example), a 100% loaded computer
must keep working when power is lost for 16 msec. All will
typically keep working even longer. If voltage drops so low
that incandescent lumens are less than 40%, then a computer
must still work just fine. These are characteristics defined
by specs for computers. Other devices such as digital clocks
may not be so resilient. I said seconds. Not full seconds.
Milliseconds. Every device will keep working a fixed period
after power is completely lost. Some just work longer.
Computers tend to be some of the more resilient to dropouts.
Some clocks tend to withstand dropouts longer. Some clocks
may have a battery or internal capacitor so that short
interruptions don't bother them.

But again, determine if all 'interrupted' appliances are
only on one phase or both. A utility crew would be more
likely to aggressively shake the suspect live wire rather than
uselessly checking all. That information also tends to make
them more believe you do have an intermittent problem.

Choreboy wrote:
Here are facts. An interruption too brief to see even at night will
knock out my phone clock, microwave clock, and computer. The problem at
my neighbors' was conspicuous in daylight as the lights went on and off
for several seconds. My house was fine. I'd say the problem did not
affect the transformer output terminals.

Here's another fact. The reason my neighbor checked the bedrooms was
that in her experience, any time she had to reset the stuff on one side
she would also have to reset the bedroom clocks. She was amazed to find
them working.

Maybe loose splice on neutral wire? But this would also
cause some lamps to sometimes glow brighter and some
incandescent bulbs to fail faster. Defective neutral is also
just another human safety reason why the earthing ground rod
is important attached to breaker box.

Symptoms are getting squishy. Once it appears contained, it
squeezes out somewhere else.

Choreboy wrote:
Oh no, 240! The affected outlets represent both sides of the
transformer! There goes my speculation of a loose splice on a secondary
line. I don't know why so much in two houses had to be reset but
everything at my house was fine.

(It's been years since I looked inside a breaker box. That's why at
first it seemed natural to me that all the switches on one side would
come from the same side of the 240-V supply.)

I can ask if they've noticed bulb problems. I've been over there many
times in the evening and the lighting was steady.

I know a retired lineman who runs marathons. Today at the track I
managed to keep up with him long enough to inquire. He said,
"Whole-house surge protector."

He's right in that I have one and they don't. What I observed was rapid
dimming of bulbs in a fixture as if it were repeatedly being switched
off. I suppose spikes could have scrambled the TV, answering machine,
and microwave, but the computer was plugged into a brand-name surge
protector. Does his guess sound good?

I don't understand the benefits and limitations of the surge protector
in my breaker box. It's a semiconductor clamping device that I
installed about 1985. At New Years of 1999, ice brought down
high-voltage lines a few miles away. In spite of my surge protector, my
TV and stereo were damaged so badly that they weren't worth fixing. (A
plug-in protector prevented damage to my computer, which was on.)

w_tom wrote:

Maybe loose splice on neutral wire? But this would also
cause some lamps to sometimes glow brighter and some
incandescent bulbs to fail faster. Defective neutral is also
just another human safety reason why the earthing ground rod
is important attached to breaker box.

Symptoms are getting squishy. Once it appears contained, it
squeezes out somewhere else.

Choreboy wrote:
Oh no, 240! The affected outlets represent both sides of the
transformer! There goes my speculation of a loose splice on a secondary
line. I don't know why so much in two houses had to be reset but
everything at my house was fine.

(It's been years since I looked inside a breaker box. That's why at
first it seemed natural to me that all the switches on one side would
come from the same side of the 240-V supply.)

Brand name plug-in protector are promoted like Listerene and
Geritol. There is no such thing as a quality plug-in
protector. Take a $3 retail power strip. Add some $0.10
components. Sell it for $15 or $50 because myth brokers now
call is 'quality'. Worse still, the adjacent protector can
even complete a surge destructive path through the appliance.
Just another little fact they forget to mention.

A 'whole house' protector connected 'less than 10 feet' to a
single point ground is essential for every home. Every phrase
in that sentence has critical importance. 'Whole house'
protector is not required for human safety. Therefore no
building code requires this effective protector. (Remember,
the protector is not protection. Earth ground is the
protection. But that discussion is irrelevant here).

Although a 'whole house' protector should be priority for
every homeowner (especially with summer T-storm season
approaching), still, that protector is not a solution to your
flickering problem. You (and neighbor) suffered a voltage
drop - a brownout or sag - so low that even electronic
appliances were affected. Many different electric problems
exist. A transient is a high voltage. A brownout is low
voltage. A surge protector is only for high voltage
transients that occur typically once every eight years.
Protector would do nothing - completely ignore - a brownout or
blackout.

Yes, the linemen properly informed you of something
essential for every transistorized building. Absolutely
essential. Something missing on most all buildings.
Something so important to transistor safety that every lurker
should be now planning trips to responsible stores such as
Home Depot and Lowes. But surge protectors - the effective
'whole house' type or the scam plug-in type - will provide
nothing for this brownout or blackout problem.


Among suspects should be inspection of the circuit box. For
example, some Federal Pacific breaker boxes have been known to
burn down the building. Flickering would be a symptom of
future serious failure. The flickering may be nothing. Or it
may be symptoms of a future and major problem. In previous
posts I mentioned, in passing, the inspection of many things
such as the earthing rod. Inspection of that circuit box
(including feeling for heat on non-conductive surfaces) is
another. Immediately cannot say if those inspections would or
would not explain the strange flicker. But then even the
military demands such inspections every five years or less.

Yes, even an intermittent neutral wire does not explain your
symptoms. However this assumes just one problem. It might be
a combination of intermittents that conspired to cause that
flicker. Best we can do is inspect the usual suspects, and
'keep your ears on' for future symptoms. That strange flicker
would bother me to no end - just like the near disaster of a
Space Shuttle one full year before Challenger exploded for the
same reason. The engineers never stopped asking why and
therefore could have saved Challenger; if their management had
minds of innovators instead of bean counter mentalities.

Best to do as you are doing and to inspect those various
suspects previously recommended for inspection. Sorry I
cannot offer up a likely suspect. Best I can do is add to the
list of suspects and encourage you to keep being suspicious.

Choreboy wrote:
I can ask if they've noticed bulb problems. I've been over there many
times in the evening and the lighting was steady.

I know a retired lineman who runs marathons. Today at the track I
managed to keep up with him long enough to inquire. He said,
"Whole-house surge protector."

He's right in that I have one and they don't. What I observed was rapid
dimming of bulbs in a fixture as if it were repeatedly being switched
off. I suppose spikes could have scrambled the TV, answering machine,
and microwave, but the computer was plugged into a brand-name surge
protector. Does his guess sound good?

I don't understand the benefits and limitations of the surge protector
in my breaker box. It's a semiconductor clamping device that I
installed about 1985. At New Years of 1999, ice brought down
high-voltage lines a few miles away. In spite of my surge protector, my
TV and stereo were damaged so badly that they weren't worth fixing. (A
plug-in protector prevented damage to my computer, which was on.)

w_tom wrote:

Brand name plug-in protector are promoted like Listerene and
Geritol. There is no such thing as a quality plug-in
protector. Take a $3 retail power strip. Add some $0.10
components. Sell it for $15 or $50 because myth brokers now
call is 'quality'. Worse still, the adjacent protector can
even complete a surge destructive path through the appliance.
Just another little fact they forget to mention.

Outlet strips won't do much and are sometimes called surge protectors.
With a surge protector, I guess you got MOVs or something else to dump
surges, inductors to show high impedence to transients, and something to
blow quickly if an MOV can't handle a surge.

With a whole-house protector, all you get is something to dump surges.
If it opens, how do you know? If it shorts, your whole house is dark.

If I had to choose how to protect a computer, I'd choose a plug-in unit,
but I've never understood whether a $50 unit is better than a $15 unit.
As you say, the components are cheap.

I have heard that plug-in-units should be replaced every year or two
because they deteriorate. I don't know if that's true. It seems to me
that a well-designed unit can be trusted until the light comes on and
you can't get power.

[...]

Yes, the linemen properly informed you of something
essential for every transistorized building. Absolutely
essential. Something missing on most all buildings.
Something so important to transistor safety that every lurker
should be now planning trips to responsible stores such as
Home Depot and Lowes. But surge protectors - the effective
'whole house' type or the scam plug-in type - will provide
nothing for this brownout or blackout problem.

When ice brought down a high-voltage line a few miles away, my
whole-house protector didn't save my TV or stereo. My scam plug-in
protector saved my computer, external drive, and modem.

Among suspects should be inspection of the circuit box. For
example, some Federal Pacific breaker boxes have been known to
burn down the building. Flickering would be a symptom of
future serious failure. The flickering may be nothing. Or it
may be symptoms of a future and major problem. In previous
posts I mentioned, in passing, the inspection of many things
such as the earthing rod. Inspection of that circuit box
(including feeling for heat on non-conductive surfaces) is
another. Immediately cannot say if those inspections would or
would not explain the strange flicker. But then even the
military demands such inspections every five years or less.

Yes, even an intermittent neutral wire does not explain your
symptoms. However this assumes just one problem. It might be
a combination of intermittents that conspired to cause that
flicker. Best we can do is inspect the usual suspects, and
'keep your ears on' for future symptoms. That strange flicker
would bother me to no end - just like the near disaster of a
Space Shuttle one full year before Challenger exploded for the
same reason. The engineers never stopped asking why and
therefore could have saved Challenger; if their management had
minds of innovators instead of bean counter mentalities.

Best to do as you are doing and to inspect those various
suspects previously recommended for inspection. Sorry I
cannot offer up a likely suspect. Best I can do is add to the
list of suspects and encourage you to keep being suspicious.

It was a gusty day, and the woman across the street from them had
flickering at the same time, after which she had to restart her computer
and reset clocks.

The plug-in protector does nothing effective. A properly
sized protector should not vaporize or opens when shunting
typically destructive transients. If protector is vaporized,
then it provided ineffective protection.

Often an adjacent TV may suffer no damage, but the protector
fails catastrophically (catastrophic damage must never happen
to a protector as defined by MOV manufacturer data sheets).
Then the naive assume, "the protector sacrificed itself to
protect my TV". Reality: protector was so grossly undersized
as to fail while TV's internal protection protected the TV.
Remember, a transient confronts TV and protector at same time
with equal force. Protector does not sit between a transient
and TV - as myths claim. Protector connects to AC mains just
like another light bulb. But if the protector is undersized,
then some humans will speculate, "the protector failed to save
my TV". A transient too small to harm the TV instead
destroyed a grossly undersized (and overpriced) protector.
What kind of protection was that? Ineffective plug-in
protector was damaged by a transient too small to even harm
the TV.

What does that human do? Buy more grossly undersized and
overpriced protectors - and recommend them to friends. A
properly sized protector means no one knows a transient
occurred.

We install properly sized protectors so that failure is not
an issue. Protector is installed for events that occur
typically once every eight years. But to sell more $3 power
strips with some $0.10 components for $15 or $50, then I too
would hype a myth that protectors must be replaced every year.

Protectors degrade quickly when undersized. But again,
numbers expose the myth. Take a typical 345 joule plug-in
protector. Maybe it will last for two equally sized
transients. Therefore even the minimal 1000 joule 'whole
house' protector would last for maybe 300 of those same sized
transients. 2 verses 300. Protector installed for events
that occur typically once every eight years. Damning numbers
that reverse 100% your reasoning.

Increased joules causes an exponential increase in protector
life expectancy. So why are plug-in protectors so grossly
undersized? They are not providing effective protection. Why
waste more money on more $0.10 parts to properly size a
protector. If it fails, then the naive will hype "the
protector sacrificed itself to protection my...."


How do you know the 'whole house' protector did not save
appliances? Do you do as I do - identify the electrical path
AND replace all electrical components? How do you know that
plug-in protector did anything? What is the criteria? Again,
the old Missouri adage. Show me. What are the facts? Which
components did and did not fail? What was the complete
circuit of that transient?

In another example, the VCR may have shorted to protect an
adjacent TV. Then the naive human assumed a plug-in protector
provided the protection. But he could not explain why the VCR
was damaged. Turns out, the transient never saw the
protector. But again, this level of detail so often
demonstrates plug-in protectors as ineffective. How many
joules in each protector? Why are some so grossly undersized
as to be damaged? Just more damning numbers.

Then we have price. One spent $15 or $50 for ineffective
protection of each appliance. The properly sized 'whole
house' protector costs about $1 per appliance. Worries about
the 'whole house' protector shorting, not indicating a
failure, or leaving a house dark are not valid. Reasons why
involve details made obvious when the 'whole house' protector
is installed.

A protector that catastrophically fails (vaporizes) is
classic of undersized protectors. But then where would you
want such a protector? On a desk full of papers, or in dust
balls on the rug behind a desk? Plug-in protectors are not
just undersized. They are in the wrong location for human
safety. Just more reasons why the plug-in protector is not
effective. The most damning reason - no earth ground which
means no effective protection.

Intermatic once provided a brochure describing an event in
their sales manager's house when Andrew went through Florida.
High voltage primary wire dropped on a wire into his house.
Intermatic 'whole house' protector was badly burned. But it
shunted the high voltage primary voltage until a utility fuse
finally cut off those thousands of volts. Nothing inside his
house was damaged. The house did not catch fire from
thousands of volts on 120 volt appliances. Plug-in protectors
did not vaporize while sitting on combustible materials inside
rooms. Properly sized 'whole house' protectors for about $1
per protected appliance? Or $15 to $50 for the grossly
undersized and ineffective plug-in protectors?

These are damning numbers. And then we add the most
important fact. The protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. Bottom line fact that plug-in protectors avoid
discussing to sell at 15 or 50 times the price.

Choreboy wrote:
Outlet strips won't do much and are sometimes called surge protectors.
With a surge protector, I guess you got MOVs or something else to dump
surges, inductors to show high impedence to transients, and something to
blow quickly if an MOV can't handle a surge.

With a whole-house protector, all you get is something to dump surges.
If it opens, how do you know? If it shorts, your whole house is dark.

If I had to choose how to protect a computer, I'd choose a plug-in unit,
but I've never understood whether a $50 unit is better than a $15 unit.
As you say, the components are cheap.

I have heard that plug-in-units should be replaced every year or two
because they deteriorate. I don't know if that's true. It seems to me
that a well-designed unit can be trusted until the light comes on and
you can't get power.

[...]

When ice brought down a high-voltage line a few miles away, my
whole-house protector didn't save my TV or stereo. My scam plug-in
protector saved my computer, external drive, and modem.

w_tom wrote:

The plug-in protector does nothing effective. A properly
sized protector should not vaporize or opens when shunting
typically destructive transients. If protector is vaporized,
then it provided ineffective protection.

As it vaporizes it should blow the fuse device.

Remember, a transient confronts TV and protector at same time
with equal force. Protector does not sit between a transient
and TV - as myths claim. Protector connects to AC mains just
like another light bulb.

It's the whole-house protector that is parallel to the load, like a
light bulb. a plug-in protector should put at least two inductors and
two fuse devices in series with the load.

But if the protector is undersized,
then some humans will speculate, "the protector failed to save
my TV". A transient too small to harm the TV instead
destroyed a grossly undersized (and overpriced) protector.
What kind of protection was that? Ineffective plug-in
protector was damaged by a transient too small to even harm
the TV.

Too little got through the protector to damage the TV.

What does that human do? Buy more grossly undersized and
overpriced protectors - and recommend them to friends. A
properly sized protector means no one knows a transient
occurred.

AFAIK, I've never had a plug-in protector damaged. My neighbors wiped
one out because their phone ground isn't bonded to their power ground.

I installed my whole-house protector 20 years ago and don't remember the
specs. I suppose it clamps at something like 300 volts. It would do
nothing to a transient up to 300 volts from ground. The transformer
that powers digital equipment responds to the derivative of input
current. The fast rise time of a transient could send a big spike
through the transformer even if the transient is less than 300 volts. A
plug-in surge protector blocks transients with inductors.


How do you know the 'whole house' protector did not save
appliances? Do you do as I do - identify the electrical path
AND replace all electrical components? How do you know that
plug-in protector did anything? What is the criteria? Again,
the old Missouri adage. Show me. What are the facts? Which
components did and did not fail? What was the complete
circuit of that transient?

I know it did not save my tv and my stereo. As they were plugged into
an ungrounded outlet and the antenna was rabbit ears and there was no
ground nearby, I know the electrical path was between the hot and the
neutral. Why would I want to replace all electrical components?

The cause was the breaking of a distant power line in an ice storm.
Therefore, the surge must have affected the input of the street
transformer and both sides of the output. Clearly, the plug-in
protector saved my computer equipment from the same fate as my TV and stereo.


A protector that catastrophically fails (vaporizes) is
classic of undersized protectors. But then where would you
want such a protector? On a desk full of papers, or in dust
balls on the rug behind a desk? Plug-in protectors are not
just undersized. They are in the wrong location for human
safety. Just more reasons why the plug-in protector is not
effective. The most damning reason - no earth ground which
means no effective protection.

How often do plug-in protectors cause fires? UL seems to find them safe.


Intermatic once provided a brochure describing an event in
their sales manager's house when Andrew went through Florida.
High voltage primary wire dropped on a wire into his house.
Intermatic 'whole house' protector was badly burned. But it
shunted the high voltage primary voltage until a utility fuse
finally cut off those thousands of volts. Nothing inside his
house was damaged. The house did not catch fire from
thousands of volts on 120 volt appliances.

How many joules do you think the protector absorbed? Did any of his
breakers kick? What equipment in his house was running? Did he have
any plug-in protectors? Was his whole-house protector still okay?

A fuse that blows inside a protector only disconnects the
protector from AC mains. It leaves the appliance fully
connected. This was all but required by UL1449 2nd edition
when so many protectors failed catastrophically and spit
flames. Tests for two separate articles in 1980s PC Magazine
even noted the problem.

Today protectors are a less of a fire hazards due to UL1449
2nd edition. We had a UL1449 protector spit flames once. It
was on linoleum tile. The last place a protector (or the
mains circuit breakers) need be located is among combustible
material. We enclose circuit breakers for the same reason.
Breakers also never spit sparks, except .... When was the
last time your rug caught fire due to an extension cord. And
yet that fire also is now considered so dangerous that Arc
Fault breakers are required. Last place I want an undersize
protector (which means plug-in protector) is where a protector
failure can cause a fire.

In the meantime, a microsecond (and destructive) transient
has already damaged electronics while in-line fuses take
milliseconds to blow? There is no inline fuses on plug-in
protectors to disconnect the appliance. Furthermore fuses
don't protect from transients.

Fuses disconnect damaged electronics from the AC mains for
human safety - so the house does not burn down. That is also
the function of a fuse on surge protector circuits. Fuse
disconnects a vaporized or shorted protector; while appliance
remains fully connected and exposed to the transient. Fuse
only disconnects the MOV - not the appliance. (This MOV fuse
should not be confused with the larger 15 amp breaker.)

A plug-in protector puts no fuses in series with the load.
And those inductors? Application notes from MOV manufacturers
recommend those inductors only to protect the MOVs. Smaller
MOV then can withstand slightly more energy. Those inductors
are ... well again the numbers ... are insufficient inductance
as load protection. Furthermore, an electronic appliance
already has a superior line filter inside its power supply -
to meet FCC requirements. The inductor in a power strip
protector - if it even exists - is not for appliance
protection.

Previously cited was a damaged TV and stereo; and an
undamaged damaged computer. Assumed was that all had equal
internal protection. The TV need only meet the 600 volt
standard (posted previously). Computer power supplies must
withstand voltages in excess of 1000 volts - as even demanded
by Intel specs. So a transient large enough to overwhelm 600
volt protection inside a TV could not overwhelm the 1000 volt
protection in a computer power supply. Where does that
damage prove a computer protector with too few joules did
anything? It does not. And again, with or without the
plug-in protector, the computer was connected directly to AC
mains. More likely, the computer protected itself.

BTW, also mentioned was a grounded receptacle. No earth
ground exists at that wall receptacle. Wire impedance (and
other electrical concepts) means a receptacle has all but no
earth ground. Another critical expression was posted that
examples the concept - 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth
ground. Wire distance and other factors inside wall wires
conspire to make that receptacle safety ground not an earth
ground. No earth ground is why plug-in protectors are not
effective.

I can appreciate why you might think the plug-in protector
effective. But principles of junior high school science
apply. A fact must be proven both theoretically and
experimentally. Your example contradicts well proven theory.
And numbers for internal appliance protection explain why one
appliance may be damaged while the other not damaged. You
example does not demonstrate the plug-in protector did
anything effective.

From that FL (Hurricane Andrew) example, thousands of volts
on a 120 volt AC line will damage appliances whether off or
on. Switches (and fuses) are only rated for hundreds of
volts. Thousands of voltage would have passed through those
open switches (and fuses). Many appliances (ie computers and
remote controlled TVs) have power always applied. He had no
appliance damage - not even a clock - according to the sales
brochure. That protector was rated at 1200 joules. To be
equivalent, a plug-in protector would need be rated at 2400 to
3600 joules.

No that FL protector was operating well beyond what even
'whole house' protectors are designed to do. It was
blackened. That is all I remember about the protector. I
don't even remember if his Mains breaker tripped. But a
protector designed to withstand 300 'same sized transients'
did accomplish what the plug-in '2 transient' (undersized)
protector obviously could not. A protector rated for 150
times more 'same sized transients' could accomplish the
protection - albeit destructively. Those grossly undersized
plug-in protectors would have only protected themselves. To
meet UL1449, grossly undersized plug-in protectors must
quickly disconnect MOV protector circuits - abandoning the
appliance to protect itself.

In the meantime, protectors are for destructive transients
that occur in microseconds - transistor protection. Fuses and
circuit breakers are for milliseconds events and longer -
human protection. Transistor protection means the protector
is only as effective as its earth ground which is why one
'whole house' protector is so effective.

In the meantime, none of this would solve or address the
strange light flickering.

Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
The plug-in protector does nothing effective. A properly
sized protector should not vaporize or opens when shunting
typically destructive transients. If protector is vaporized,
then it provided ineffective protection.

As it vaporizes it should blow the fuse device.
...

It's the whole-house protector that is parallel to the load, like a
light bulb. a plug-in protector should put at least two inductors and
two fuse devices in series with the load.
...

Too little got through the protector to damage the TV.
...

AFAIK, I've never had a plug-in protector damaged. My neighbors wiped
one out because their phone ground isn't bonded to their power ground.

I installed my whole-house protector 20 years ago and don't remember the
specs. I suppose it clamps at something like 300 volts. It would do
nothing to a transient up to 300 volts from ground. The transformer
that powers digital equipment responds to the derivative of input
current. The fast rise time of a transient could send a big spike
through the transformer even if the transient is less than 300 volts. A
plug-in surge protector blocks transients with inductors.
...

I know it did not save my tv and my stereo. As they were plugged into
an ungrounded outlet and the antenna was rabbit ears and there was no
ground nearby, I know the electrical path was between the hot and the
neutral. Why would I want to replace all electrical components?

The cause was the breaking of a distant power line in an ice storm.
Therefore, the surge must have affected the input of the street
transformer and both sides of the output. Clearly, the plug-in
protector saved my computer equipment from the same fate as my TV
and stereo.
...

How often do plug-in protectors cause fires? UL seems to find
them safe.

Intermatic once provided a brochure describing an event in
their sales manager's house when Andrew went through Florida.
High voltage primary wire dropped on a wire into his house.
Intermatic 'whole house' protector was badly burned. But it
shunted the high voltage primary voltage until a utility fuse
finally cut off those thousands of volts. Nothing inside his
house was damaged. The house did not catch fire from
thousands of volts on 120 volt appliances.

How many joules do you think the protector absorbed? Did any of his
breakers kick? What equipment in his house was running? Did he have
any plug-in protectors? Was his whole-house protector still okay?

w_tom wrote:


In the meantime, a microsecond (and destructive) transient
has already damaged electronics while in-line fuses take
milliseconds to blow? There is no inline fuses on plug-in
protectors to disconnect the appliance. Furthermore fuses
don't protect from transients.

In the 80s I had modems protected only by tiny fuses that blew very
fast. I quit blowing fuses when I got a good plug-in suppressor.

I don't know about every surge protector, but a standard simple design
has a fuse, a shunting MOV, an inductor, and the load. If the MOV blows
the fuse, the load is disconnected. Meanwhile, the inductor blocks transients.

Fuses disconnect damaged electronics from the AC mains for
human safety - so the house does not burn down. That is also
the function of a fuse on surge protector circuits. Fuse
disconnects a vaporized or shorted protector; while appliance
remains fully connected and exposed to the transient. Fuse
only disconnects the MOV - not the appliance. (This MOV fuse
should not be confused with the larger 15 amp breaker.)

I have one surge protector which instantly disconnects the load with
even tiny transients. It crashes my computer several times a month.

Another suppressor of mine has five MOVs, six diodes, two glass fuses,
two special-purpose fuses, two resistors, a transistor, a transistor
wired as a diode, and a capacitor.

A plug-in protector puts no fuses in series with the load.
And those inductors? Application notes from MOV manufacturers
recommend those inductors only to protect the MOVs. Smaller
MOV then can withstand slightly more energy. Those inductors
are ... well again the numbers ... are insufficient inductance
as load protection. Furthermore, an electronic appliance
already has a superior line filter inside its power supply -
to meet FCC requirements. The inductor in a power strip
protector - if it even exists - is not for appliance
protection.

How much inductance does it take to protect an appliance from a
1-microsecond transient? Are you saying the FCC requires lightning protection?

Previously cited was a damaged TV and stereo; and an
undamaged damaged computer. Assumed was that all had equal
internal protection. The TV need only meet the 600 volt
standard (posted previously). Computer power supplies must
withstand voltages in excess of 1000 volts - as even demanded
by Intel specs. So a transient large enough to overwhelm 600
volt protection inside a TV could not overwhelm the 1000 volt
protection in a computer power supply. Where does that
damage prove a computer protector with too few joules did
anything? It does not. And again, with or without the
plug-in protector, the computer was connected directly to AC
mains. More likely, the computer protected itself.

I don't have an Intel computer. Where would I find the requirements for
*my* computer?

BTW, also mentioned was a grounded receptacle. No earth
ground exists at that wall receptacle. Wire impedance (and
other electrical concepts) means a receptacle has all but no
earth ground. Another critical expression was posted that
examples the concept - 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth
ground. Wire distance and other factors inside wall wires
conspire to make that receptacle safety ground not an earth
ground. No earth ground is why plug-in protectors are not
effective.

Wrong. A whole-house protector won't ensure that the ground at each
receptacle in a house will stay at the same potential when lightning
strikes. OTOH, whether or not you have a whole-house protector, if all
computer equipment that's connected together is supplied through the
same plug-in surge protector, it will all have the same ground when
lightning strikes.

I can appreciate why you might think the plug-in protector
effective. But principles of junior high school science
apply. A fact must be proven both theoretically and
experimentally. Your example contradicts well proven theory.
And numbers for internal appliance protection explain why one
appliance may be damaged while the other not damaged. You
example does not demonstrate the plug-in protector did
anything effective.

My example contradicts well proven theory? Then the well proven theory
must be that a computer plugged into a surge protector will blow and a
TV plugged directly into an outlet won't blow.


In the meantime, protectors are for destructive transients
that occur in microseconds - transistor protection. Fuses and
circuit breakers are for milliseconds events and longer -
human protection. Transistor protection means the protector
is only as effective as its earth ground which is why one
'whole house' protector is so effective.

I had whole-house protection when my TV and stereo blew.

In the meantime, none of this would solve or address the
strange light flickering.

I talked to people from a fourth house on our transformer. They weren't
home at the time, but they had to reset everything when they got home.

I also talked to the lineman. He likes whole-house protectors, but he
says a lightning arrester is more important. For a small fee the power
company will hook one to your meter. You can tell at a glance if it's okay.

In the meantime, a microsecond (and destructive) transient
has already damaged electronics while in-line fuses take
milliseconds to blow? There is no inline fuses on plug-in
protectors to disconnect the appliance. Furthermore fuses
don't protect from transients.

My neighbor advised (too late) that he was having strange electrical things
happening in his kitchen last week:

Turned on O/H light and the control panel on his stove went dim and similar.

After a couple of days of ignoring it, the BIG one finally hit. All the LCD
indicators/controls on his 1. NEW stove 2. microwave 3. New $ 200 coffee
maker 4. Digital phone & answering machine went out.

He called in the local electric utility who said it was probably a neutral
failure in THEIR line (up to the meter) and if so, they'd go good for new
appliances.

Well it turned out the Elec Co line was OK. What they did find though was
that the original electrician has double wired some of the neutral circuits
in his panel to the neutral bar by putting two neutrals in one hole. It
appears that a couple weren't tightened down properly and although it was CU
wire and has lasted OK for 17 yrs, a couple of these neutrals lost their
connection somehow, burnt and arced and caused a 220V spike thru one side of
the panel.

The fridge and stove ARE working, but the digital/LCD controls/boards are
burned out as are the brains of the other two items. Looks like about $2K
to replace the burnt items.He s lucky his $ 3000 TV, surround sound ,
computer and so on, that are on the other side of the panel were OK.

The fix was to strip back the burnt neutrals to new clean wire and reattach.
Strangely, his house and mine are about the same size but my panel is
probably 30% larger. Looks like the electrician 'skimped' on his install

Rudy.

A destructive transient cannot be blocked, stopped, or
absorbed. Series inductance will stop the transient? Fuse
will stop a transient? Does not happen. Numbers provided in
the previous post make that woefully obvious.

But those grossly undersized and ineffective protector
manufacturers hope you will believe typically destructive
transients can be blocked. They can't make that claim, but
hope you will do so anyway. Meanwhile, the fuse is required
to keep you from being killed by a grossly undersized
protector - as required by UL1449. Earlier protectors did not
have a fuse and therefore created fire dangers. Dangerous
because the MOV was grossly undersized to fail during
transients too small to even overwhelm internal appliance
protection. The fuse disconnects MOV after failure and during
what is called 'follow-on' current; utility electricity. The
fuse is only to protect you; not transistors. The inductor
does not stop a transient. What is the breakdown voltage of
that inductor? How much current saturated the inductor? More
damning numbers they hope you never ask.

Again, destructive transients are diverted - downstream by a
dike. Inline inductance or a fuse will not stop a flood by
damming the river. But then the manufacturer does not even
make that claim. He hopes you will make assumptions to
promote myths. The MOV, inductor, and fuse combination; will
that one inch part stop what 3 miles of sky could not? Tell
me how those woefully undersized parts can stop 1000 volts
created by a trivial microseconds transient? If you think
that inductor is effective protection, then tie knots in wires
for additional protection. Wire knots are another myth. If
the inductor does as you claim, then so do wire knots.

Where were fuses in your 1980 modem? Where does the
transient come from that typically damaged modems? From AC
mains. Phone lines already have effective protectors
installed by the telco. Effective when that 'whole house'
protector routinely installed for free by the telco is
properly earthed. Incoming AC mains typically have no earthed
protection. Even worse, the adjacent plug-in protector
provides destructive AC mains transients with more potentially
destructive paths through that modem.

If a modem fuse will stop a transient, then the modem's
off-hook relay (that connects phone line to modem) already
accomplished that function. Fuse was not necessary. In fact,
that relay blocks higher voltages than a fuse. And still the
transient passes right through a relay. What is a typical
path of modem destructive transient? Through modem's relay
coil to relay wiper. Then out via phone line to earth
ground. Is the relay coil isolated from the wiper (switching
contact)? Yes. But a breakdown voltage exists. Don't take my
word for it. Get that number from datasheets. Once that
breakdown voltage is exceeded, then relay coil is electrically
connected to wiper. A blowing 250 volt fuse (for 120 volt
service) also will not interrupt a transient of a thousand
volts. Neither fuse nor off-hook relay inside modem's DAA
section will not stop a trivial 1000 volt transient. If the
relay cannot stop it, then what good are those tiny fuses?
Useless for transient protection. Fuses don't stop
destructive transients as repeatedly demonstrated by numbers -
both time and voltage. To declare otherwise, you must address
those numbers that also showed why your stereo could be
damaged and computer not damaged. Numbers that also say that
plug-in protector is a waste of good money.

Effective protection is always about diverting. Those with
both theory and experience know there is nothing in a modem or
a power strip protector that will block or stop the typically
destructive transient - as was well understood even before
WWII. See citations below for a days worth of reading.

If you think, even for a moment, that any protector opens to
block a transient, then they have you promoting junk science
reasoning. Look on datasheets. The numbers say otherwise.
What is the voltage rating on that fuse? What is the response
time for a fuse? Damning numbers. 300 consecutive and
destructive transients could pass through the fuse and the
fuse would not blow. Damning numbers that again demonstrate
what was always well understood. Nothing will stop, block, or
absorb the typically destructive transient. Only myth
purveyors promote protectors that stop, block, or absorb
transients. Selling those plug-in protectors at grossly
inflated prices.

What do those ineffective protector manufacturers hope you
assume? That the MOV, inductor, and fuse somehow disconnects
equipment from the mains. Absolute nonsense. Notice they
don't discuss earthing? Why? Earthing is not provided by a
wall receptacle safety ground. Do not confuse safety ground
with earth ground.

What do MOVs do? They shunt a transient from one wire to
all others. A destructive transient on black (brown) hot wire
is distributed to all other wires. MOV protector has simply
provided the transient with more potentially destructive paths
through powered off appliances. And that inductor? So small
as to be considered nonexistent.

There is no inductance or fuse that will stop what 3 miles
of sky could not stop. Again, - and this is essential - the
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why?
Effective protectors shunt - connect the transient 'less than
10 feet' to earth.

That utility lightning arrestor is a 'whole house'
protector. Yes the utility will put a 'whole house' protector
behind the meter and charge a rather expensive $4 or $6 per
month. Is it sufficient? Earthing is your responsibility -
not theirs. If your earthing does not meet or exceed post
1990 National Electrical Code requirements, then that
lightning arrestor / 'whole house' protector does nothing
effective.

Meanwhile, tell me how they take those milliamp
measurements without disconnecting the lightning arrestor
during testing? The can report if the protector has been
catastrophically damaged. They cannot report if the arrestor
is still good. Appreciate the ternary logic. They cannot
report protector degradation; only report protector failure
due to catastrophic damage. Nothing new here. This stuff is
well proven generations ago. Yet many assume if it can report
a failure, then it can also report the protector is good.
Erroneous conclusions based on binary logic. That lightning
arrestor and 'whole house' protector are same thing.

What does that utility lightning arrestor do? Connects AC
mains to earth ground during the transient. No earth ground
means ... well it should be obvious by now that nothing is
going to stop, block, or absorb destructive transients.
Nothing. Effective protection has always been about diverting
the flood downstream away from the town - dikes. Dams simply
overflow or fail during the massive flood. Effective
protectors do same - shunt (divert, connect) a transient very
short distance (downstream) to earth. Why did your 'whole
house' protector fail to protect the stereo? You never
mention earthing. Repeatedly you imply the protector is
protection. You first statements about that stereo and TV
damage should have described the earthing system in detail -
and said almost nothing about the protectors.

Ineffective protector manufacturers avoid discussion of
earthing and hope you will confuse safety ground (ie wall
receptacle) with earthing. No way around principles so well
understood that Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752.


What is your computer? Those Intel standards for power
supply that have been industry standards for so long and taken
up by a large consortium of computer manufacturers. If the
computer uses an ATX standard power supply (and the
manufacturer is honest), then a power supply must meet those
Intel standards.

Previously posted was a long list of citations from 'real
world' professionals using both theory and experience. Figure
about one full day of reading. Citations were posted recently
in alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus on 30 Mar 2005 entitled
"UPS unit needed for the P4C800E-Deluxe" at
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X61C23DCA


Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
In the meantime, a microsecond (and destructive) transient
has already damaged electronics while in-line fuses take
milliseconds to blow? There is no inline fuses on plug-in
protectors to disconnect the appliance. Furthermore fuses
don't protect from transients.

In the 80s I had modems protected only by tiny fuses that blew very
fast. I quit blowing fuses when I got a good plug-in suppressor.

I don't know about every surge protector, but a standard simple design
has a fuse, a shunting MOV, an inductor, and the load. If the MOV
blows the fuse, the load is disconnected. Meanwhile, the inductor
blocks transients.

Fuses disconnect damaged electronics from the AC mains for
human safety - so the house does not burn down. That is also
the function of a fuse on surge protector circuits. Fuse
disconnects a vaporized or shorted protector; while appliance
remains fully connected and exposed to the transient. Fuse
only disconnects the MOV - not the appliance. (This MOV fuse
should not be confused with the larger 15 amp breaker.)

I have one surge protector which instantly disconnects the load with
even tiny transients. It crashes my computer several times a month.

Another suppressor of mine has five MOVs, six diodes, two glass fuses,
two special-purpose fuses, two resistors, a transistor, a transistor
wired as a diode, and a capacitor.
...

How much inductance does it take to protect an appliance from a
1-microsecond transient? Are you saying the FCC requires lightning protection?
...

I don't have an Intel computer. Where would I find the
requirements for *my* computer?
...

Wrong. A whole-house protector won't ensure that the ground at each
receptacle in a house will stay at the same potential when lightning
strikes. OTOH, whether or not you have a whole-house protector, if all
computer equipment that's connected together is supplied through the
same plug-in surge protector, it will all have the same ground when
lightning strikes.
...

My example contradicts well proven theory? Then the well proven theory
must be that a computer plugged into a surge protector will blow and a
TV plugged directly into an outlet won't blow.
...

I also talked to the lineman. He likes whole-house protectors, but
he says a lightning arrester is more important. For a small fee
the power company will hook one to your meter. You can tell at a
glance if it's okay.

Generally, neutral wire problems are evidenced by some
incandescent lamps glowing dimmer and other glowing brighter;
when an appliance power cycles. Also brighter bulbs tend to
burn out significantly quicker. Neither fuse nor protector
(plug-in or 'whole house') will protect from this type of
electrical problem.

However, one homeowner discovered why that earthing ground
is so important. A neutral wire in a utility transformer
failed. The house then used the gas line to carry neutral
current because an earth ground had been compromised
(disconnected). Fortunately no one was home when a gas line
gasket failed and the building exploded.

Rudy wrote:
My neighbor advised (too late) that he was having strange electrical
things happening in his kitchen last week:

Turned on O/H light and the control panel on his stove went dim and
similar.

After a couple of days of ignoring it, the BIG one finally hit. All the LCD
indicators/controls on his 1. NEW stove 2. microwave 3. New $ 200 coffee
maker 4. Digital phone & answering machine went out.

He called in the local electric utility who said it was probably a neutral
failure in THEIR line (up to the meter) and if so, they'd go good for new
appliances.

Well it turned out the Elec Co line was OK. What they did find though was
that the original electrician has double wired some of the neutral circuits
in his panel to the neutral bar by putting two neutrals in one hole. It
appears that a couple weren't tightened down properly and although it was CU
wire and has lasted OK for 17 yrs, a couple of these neutrals lost their
connection somehow, burnt and arced and caused a 220V spike thru one side of
the panel.

The fridge and stove ARE working, but the digital/LCD controls/boards are
burned out as are the brains of the other two items. Looks like about $2K
to replace the burnt items.He s lucky his $ 3000 TV, surround sound ,
computer and so on, that are on the other side of the panel were OK.

The fix was to strip back the burnt neutrals to new clean wire and reattach.
Strangely, his house and mine are about the same size but my panel is
probably 30% larger. Looks like the electrician 'skimped' on his install

Rudy.

A destructive transient cannot be blocked, stopped, or
absorbed. Series inductance will stop the transient? Fuse
will stop a transient? Does not happen. Numbers provided in
the previous post make that woefully obvious.

A few years back, there was a lightning storm in the neighborhood. One hit
sounded really close aboard and the lights flickered a bit. Couldnt see
anything that got damaged but the next day when I went into the den to work
on the computer, I smelled something like plastic burning. (BTW, I dont
leave my computer "on" when not in use).

I tried to power it up but no luck. I looked behind the desk and found my
APC surge protector had no green lights on it. I opened up the case and
there was a bunch of fried circuits and melted plastic inside. Fortunately,
APC warranteed the unit for 5 years so I got a new one for the cost of
shipping.

I "dont leave home without it" now. Now that I think about it..I'd better
get one for my new Big Screen HDTV ASAP !!

Rudy

Rudy wrote:

A destructive transient cannot be blocked, stopped, or
absorbed. Series inductance will stop the transient? Fuse
will stop a transient? Does not happen. Numbers provided in
the previous post make that woefully obvious.

A few years back, there was a lightning storm in the neighborhood. One hit
sounded really close aboard and the lights flickered a bit. Couldnt see
anything that got damaged but the next day when I went into the den to work
on the computer, I smelled something like plastic burning. (BTW, I dont
leave my computer "on" when not in use).

I tried to power it up but no luck. I looked behind the desk and found my
APC surge protector had no green lights on it. I opened up the case and
there was a bunch of fried circuits and melted plastic inside. Fortunately,
APC warranteed the unit for 5 years so I got a new one for the cost of
shipping.

I "dont leave home without it" now. Now that I think about it..I'd better
get one for my new Big Screen HDTV ASAP !!

Rudy

I was online when lightning hit a tree 25 feet from my service entrance.
My phone service went dead due to a blown fuse on the telephone pole,
but I had no damage. Like you, I've had good experience, but I wish I
could find statistics and I wish I knew how some models are designed to
be more reliable than others.

Choreboy

"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
Rudy wrote:

A destructive transient cannot be blocked, stopped, or
absorbed. Series inductance will stop the transient? Fuse
will stop a transient? Does not happen. Numbers provided in
the previous post make that woefully obvious.

A few years back, there was a lightning storm in the neighborhood. One
hit
sounded really close aboard and the lights flickered a bit. Couldnt see
anything that got damaged but the next day when I went into the den to
work
on the computer, I smelled something like plastic burning. (BTW, I dont
leave my computer "on" when not in use).

I tried to power it up but no luck. I looked behind the desk and found
my
APC surge protector had no green lights on it. I opened up the case and
there was a bunch of fried circuits and melted plastic inside.
Fortunately,
APC warranteed the unit for 5 years so I got a new one for the cost of
shipping.

I "dont leave home without it" now. Now that I think about it..I'd
better
get one for my new Big Screen HDTV ASAP !!

Rudy

I was online when lightning hit a tree 25 feet from my service entrance.
My phone service went dead due to a blown fuse on the telephone pole,
but I had no damage. Like you, I've had good experience, but I wish I
could find statistics and I wish I knew how some models are designed to
be more reliable than others.

Choreboy

SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library.
IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of the 3
zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the service, next is
point of use. So as a user you can protect the service and point of use.

I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just plugs in
to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green light.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/prod...g&lan g=en_US
incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their panels as
well.

I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have
protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are UL
tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff every 2 years
just before the Monsoons.

If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will need to
beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out
http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php
I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds for
fall of potential is out of the question.
Other companies make them as well.

Choreboy still does not appreciate that my knowledge comes
from well beyond suffering damage. Suffering damage teaches
little. Notice how theory completely changes Choreboy's
conclusions - the computer protected itself.

I built protectors. Saw some fail spectacularly. Other
worked phenomenally when other unprotected appliances suffered
damage. Even replaces electronic components on damages
equipment to learn why damage happens - ie followed the
circuit path of surges. Experience is useless without the
associate theory.

From junior high school science, one must have both theory
and experience to have knowledge. One without the other is
nothing more than speculation. The theory and my decades of
experience is tempered by something that few can or are
willing to provide - the numbers.

Let's return to Rudy's post. The protector was so grossly
undersized as to abandon an adjacent computer to the
transient. Fortunately the computer had better internal
protection than the grossly undersized power strip. However
Rudy fell into thinking exactly what grossly undersized
protector manufacturers hope he will assume. He assumes a
damaged protector was providing protection. In reality, the
protector that remains functional after the surge is effective
protection. Effective protection means one never even knew
the transient existed.

Now to provide some additional facts. For example, was the
APC sitting between computer and the transient? Mechanically
yes. Electrically no. That surge hit both APC and computer
equally. The APC connects to AC electric as if it was a light
bulb - just like the computer. Choreboy - that is how the
protectors are constructed. They are called shunt mode
protectors because that is how they are wired.

Computers have internal protection. A transient too small
to overwhelm computer protection instead easily destroyed a
grossly undersized protector. Yes, undersized protector. How
many joules in that protector? Why is that plug-in protector
so grossly undersized? Rudy demonstrates why. He then
assumes an ineffective and burned protector did something.
Reality - that computer protected itself. A tiny transient
destroyed the grossly undersized plug-in protector.

Little difference whether the computer is on or off. First,
a powered off computer is always on; just like the TV.
Second, a power strip protector can even provide the transient
with a destructive path through adjacent computer. An
adjacent protector may even contribute to damage of a powered
off computer. No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all
discussion about earthing.

More facts from one who even designed and tested this
stuff. But don't take my word for it. How many joules on
that plug-in protector? If that protector is effective, then
put up the numbers? I keep asking for numbers. Where are
those numbers - the joules?

Does zone of service suggest where a protector will be
effective? No. Those zones only define the electrical
characteristics of a transient. Those zones define where a
protector can be used safely - for human safety. Protectors
that are effective at the appliance are already inside the
appliance. Internal protection that can be overwhelmed if
protection is not installed in those other zones - ie properly
earthed at the service entrance. This is called secondary
protection.

BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the
utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

How does a 'point of use' protector provide protection?
When it makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth
ground. If earthing is not provided, then the protector must
be moved to where earth ground exists: the service entrance.
Also called 'whole house' protector.

The recommended GE THQLSURGE protector was once sold in
Lowes. It was undersized. Yes it could make the 'less than
10 foot' connection to earth. But it was undersized.
Multiple GE THQLSURGE products would increase the joules. But
GE now sells a properly sized 'whole house' protector in
Lowes. Other minimally acceptable 'whole house' protectors
are sold in Lowes (Cutler Hammer) and Home Depot
(Intermatic). Other manufactures of effective protector are
Square D, Leviton, Siemens, and Furse. I don't know of any
APC product that qualifies for that list.

But again, the protector is not protection. Choreboy still
does not yet grasp the point. It is not about "plug-in
protectors are worthless". That was not the point.
Protection is about earthing. More importantly "the quality
of and connection to a single point earth ground".

Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house'
protector. That means he should begin by asking questions
about his earthing system. To talk about protectors as
protection means one does not grasp the concept. To believe a
vaporized protector was effective is only wild speculation.
Single point earth ground. The one absolutely necessary
component. The component that defines protection. Any post
about what protector 'is and is not' effective means the
poster still does not understand the concept. Choreboy's
first question should have been, "Why did my earthing system
fail?"

Again, the three zones do not define what protectors will be
effective. Those zones only define electrically what
transients can be expected. Zones define what is required so
that a protector will not harm humans. To provide protection
in those zones requires something not defined by those zones -
earthing. Something that some in this discussion have not yet
asked about. Why? Still some here confuse a protector with
protection. Without questions about a unique type of
grounding: earthing, then concepts of transient protection are
not yet understood. Protection is only as effective as the
earth ground.

AlanBown wrote:
SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library.
IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of
the 3 zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the
service, next is point of use. So as a user you can protect the
service and point of use.

I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just
plugs in to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green
light.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/prod...g&lan g=en_US
incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their
panels as well.

I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have
protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are
UL tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff
every 2 years just before the Monsoons.

If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will
need to beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out
http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php
I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds
for fall of potential is out of the question. Other companies make
them as well.

I was online when lightning hit a tree 25 feet from my service entrance.
My phone service went dead due to a blown fuse on the telephone pole,
but I had no damage. Like you, I've had good experience, but I wish I
could find statistics and I wish I knew how some models are designed to
be more reliable than others.

All I know is that the APC wasnt cheap. Some "surge" protected bars were
around $ 10-15
The APC was closer to $30+ ( cheap considering the computer system it was
protecting cost 3 grand)
but sure worked well and of course, I got its replacement free.
Its now protecting my 46" Hitachi HDTV

R

Let's return to Rudy's post. The protector was so grossly
undersized as to abandon an adjacent computer to the
transient. Fortunately the computer had better internal
protection than the grossly undersized power strip. However
Rudy fell into thinking exactly what grossly undersized
protector manufacturers hope he will assume. He assumes a
damaged protector was providing protection. In reality, the
protector that remains functional after the surge is effective
protection. Effective protection means one never even knew
the transient existed.

So are you saying that this "protector" isn't capable of protecting my
computer or TV now ?
It doesn't say how many joules its rated for, just the following : LN 330V
LG 330V NG 330V
Does this go for the millions of surge protectors that nearly every home in
North America is using to protect their home electronics ?

As far as grounding goes, my former home (also in the Tucson monsoon area)
was grounded by a ~ 1/8" copper ground wire connected thru my service box to
the rebar in the foundation. There was another one from the Satellite dish,
to the bottom plate J bolts to the rebar again

R

w_tom wrote:

Choreboy still does not appreciate that my knowledge comes
from well beyond suffering damage. Suffering damage teaches
little. Notice how theory completely changes Choreboy's
conclusions - the computer protected itself.

I built protectors. Saw some fail spectacularly. Other
worked phenomenally when other unprotected appliances suffered
damage. Even replaces electronic components on damages
equipment to learn why damage happens - ie followed the
circuit path of surges. Experience is useless without the
associate theory.

The astronomers who first said earth revolved around the sun suffered
because their observations contradicted theory. The guy who found that
medal objects had buoyancy also suffered for contradicting theory.


Computers have internal protection. A transient too small
to overwhelm computer protection instead easily destroyed a
grossly undersized protector. Yes, undersized protector. How
many joules in that protector? Why is that plug-in protector
so grossly undersized? Rudy demonstrates why. He then
assumes an ineffective and burned protector did something.
Reality - that computer protected itself. A tiny transient
destroyed the grossly undersized plug-in protector.

Is the protection built into a computer undersized?


No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all
discussion about earthing.

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.


Does zone of service suggest where a protector will be
effective? No. Those zones only define the electrical
characteristics of a transient. Those zones define where a
protector can be used safely - for human safety.

No, the grounding conductor in your wiring could pick up a surge at
various points in a building, especially in a thunderstorm. A plug-in
protector will keep it from killing your computer.

BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the
utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

It's no protection for computers. If lightning hits in your area, the
power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge and bring it right
to your house.

How does a 'point of use' protector provide protection?
When it makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth
ground. If earthing is not provided, then the protector must
be moved to where earth ground exists: the service entrance.
Also called 'whole house' protector.

Earth ground is for human protection, in case you stand in a puddle or
touch a metal pipe. All that matters to electronic gear is whether it's
connected to conductors with large voltage differences.


But again, the protector is not protection. Choreboy still
does not yet grasp the point. It is not about "plug-in
protectors are worthless". That was not the point.
Protection is about earthing. More importantly "the quality
of and connection to a single point earth ground".

Earthing once cost me a computer. A lightning surge came in the power
company's grounded conductor, through the whole-house protector to the
120 line, from that line through the computer to modem to the phone
line, from there through the telco entrance lightning protector to the
telco entrance earth ground.

I discovered the problem and bonded the grounds before the next strike.
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment if the earth
grounds aren't bonded.

Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house'
protector. That means he should begin by asking questions
about his earthing system.

The only electrical path to my stereo and TV was from the hot wire to
the neutral. There was no ground wire. The antenna was rabbit ears.

To talk about protectors as
protection means one does not grasp the concept. To believe a
vaporized protector was effective is only wild speculation.
Single point earth ground. The one absolutely necessary
component. The component that defines protection.

If there is any other path by which a ground surge can affect you, a
single-point earth ground is a hazard to people and equipment. I have
two points here. I needed four points at the farm to stop damage. A
lineman I know needed three points at his house.

AlanBown wrote:

SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library.
IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of the 3
zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the service, next is
point of use. So as a user you can protect the service and point of use.

I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just plugs in
to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green light.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/prod...g&lan g=en_US
incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their panels as
well.

That indicator light would be helpful.


I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have
protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are UL
tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff every 2 years
just before the Monsoons.

If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will need to
beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out
http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php

That's expensive! If it merely clamps around a conductor, I wonder how
it tells grounding resistance. I know it's hard to measure with an
ordinary ohmmeter. When I did it years ago, I think I checked the flow
from a 9-V battery between two ground rods.

I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds for
fall of potential is out of the question.

I don't understand that sentence.

Zerosurge avoids a discusson about earthing. Typically
destructive transients would go right around the Zerosurge
protector using the ground wire. Better to avoid discussion
even of that safety ground wire. Zerosurge sells series mode
protectors. By themselves, series mode protectors are
ineffective. Manufacturer hopes a 'dam' will stop, block, or
absorb the flood (destructive transient).

However Zerosurge protectors can be effective if
supplementing a protection system. If used in conjuction with
a properly earthed 'whole house' protection system, then the
Zerosurge protector acts like a 'dike'. Major difference
between a dam and a dike. A dam never stops, blocks, or
absorbs the destructive flood. But dikes help divert the
destructive flood downstream. This means earthing
(downstream) is essential for series mode protectors to be
effective.

Appliances already contains a dike. Internal protection
that can be overwhelmed if the primary and secondary
protection systems are not installed. What is the most
critical component of primary and secondary protection
systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that discussion.

The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'. Internal protection can be overwhelmed by
trasnsients that occur typically once every eight years. From
trivial transents created by refirgerators, dishwasher, and
furnace (also called noise), the appliance protection is more
than sufficient.

What is this transient picked up by a building's grounding
system especially during thunderstorms? If that transient
was so destructive, then nearby lightning would destroy
electronics literally tuned to the destructive frequencies of
lightning - AM radios. How many AM radios inside cars are
damaged after every thunderstorm.

Why is that damage number virtualy zero? Because those
mythical surges created by nearby lightning strikes are
promoted only on myth - without numbers. Any transient
created by nearby lightning on the ground wire is made
irrelevant by protection inside the appliance.

However, plug-in (point of use) protector do create other
internal transients. Induced transients are created when a
plug-in protector tries to earth a transient on the safety
ground wires. Safety ground wires are bundled with all other
wires. Any transient being earthed by a plug-in protector now
induces transients on all other wires. IEEE papers discuss
this problem. Earthing a transient on wires bundled with
other wires only complicates transient solution. Just another
reason why plug-in protector are ineffective.

Effective 'whole house' protectors earth a transient on
wires separated from other wires. But again, notice that
Choreboy does not ask about earthing. How a 'whole house'
protector is earthed determined protection. Described are
induced transients that can be created when the electrician
does not properly install a 'whole house' protector or when
using plug-in protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its "connection to and
quality of" earth ground. Something that Zerosurge avoids
discussing to sell their product. It's called lying by
telling half truths - or propaganda.

Choreboy demonstrates another myth:
.. the power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge
and bring it right to your house.
An example of 'lying by telling half truths'. A problem
eliminated when using the single point earth ground. Again,
the primary protection system is demonstrated by these
pictures:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
If the primary protection system is compromised, then extra
stress is placed on a secondary protection system. And if no
secondary protection system exists, then a plug-in protector
may provide the transient with potentially destructive paths
through your household appliances.

Again Choreboy muddies the water:
Earth ground is for human protection, ...
Yes. And it is also required for transistor safety - as was
posted both previously and repeatedly. Bottom line: the
plug-in protector provides no effective protection and can
even contribute to damage of the adjacent appliance. I have
even traced such damage through a network of powered off
computers. But then I learned by doing the work - fixing
things at the electronic component level and then kept asking
why. Choreboy instead claims:
A plug-in protector will keep it from killing your computer.
This posted without a single fact or number to prove his
point. He would recommend plug-in protectors that are even
undersized- too few joules? Unfortunately, he recites half
truths and myths promoted by those plug-in protector
advocates. He even denies a basic concept. What does
lightning seek? Earth ground. What did Franklin even use to
protect church steeples? Earthing. Instead Choreboy states:
Earthing once cost me a computer.
Then he contradicts himself:
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment
if the earth grounds aren't bonded.
Which is it? Earthing causes damage or earthing is necessary?

Choreboy later admits to defective earthing. Meanwhile,
earthing for electronics protection was well proven even
before WWII. How can Choreboy deny this? He does not even
know what inside each appliance was damaged. A dead body is
best evidence. But one mustfirst learn the underlying
theories. Unfortunately, Choreboy now recites propaganda from
plug-in protectors advocats - much like those religous leaders
who insisted the sun goes around the earth. One who learns
also performs an autopsy. Those who worship myths from
plug-in protector advocates, instead just somehow know - facts
be damned.

Choreboy had damage due to defects in his earthing system
which he eventually admits to. But he still does not ask a
single question as to how to fix his earthing system. He just
knows a grossly overpriced and undersized plug-in protector is
effective. This even though numbers previously demonstrated
why his stereo and TV could be damaged; and internal
protection inside the computer protected the computer.

Choreboy eventually admits why his protection system did not
work:
I have two points here. I needed four points at the farm
to stop damage.
Ironic. Previously he posted that earthing causes damage?
Now he admits a violation of single point earthing
principles. Instead we consult those who do the science. A
figure from the National Institute of Standards and Technology
demsonstrates how multiple grounds cause damage to a fax:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
But again, I am discussing what provides effective
protection. Earthing. What Choreboy avoids learning about
and yet assumes is not effective? Earthing.

Choreboy suffered damage to TV and stereo. How does an AC
line surge enter these appliances? Incoming on AC electric
hot wire. Outgoing paths include the properly earthed
antenna, or via speaker or antenna wires draped on floor, on
baseboard heat, against chimeny, on lioleum tile, etc. Other
earthing paths could also exist. Two wire appliances are
damaged when those transients are not properly earthed (which
BTW has nothing to do with a safety ground wire on appliance
power cord). A surge may find destructive paths through and
damage transistorized appliances because, as Choreboy now
admits, his earthing system is defective.

For those who want real world protection at about $1 per
protected appliance: the protector is only as effective as
its earth ground.

Unfortunately, Choreboy's knowledge comes from sources of
propaganda such as Zerosurge and from myths promoted by
plug-in protector advocates. He even now denies the critical
need for single point ground, as even the NIST says is
necessary. His defective earthing suggests why he suffered
unnecessary appliance damage. Damage from a transient so
trivial as to not even overwhelm protection inside a computer.

Choreboy wrote:
The astronomers who first said earth revolved around the sun suffered
because their observations contradicted theory. The guy who found that
medal objects had buoyancy also suffered for contradicting theory.
...

Is the protection built into a computer undersized?

No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all
discussion about earthing.

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.
...

No, the grounding conductor in your wiring could pick up a surge at
various points in a building, especially in a thunderstorm.

BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the
utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

It's no protection for computers. If lightning hits in your area, the
power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge and bring it right
to your house.
...

All that matters to electronic gear is whether it's
connected to conductors with large voltage differences.
...

Earthing once cost me a computer. A lightning surge came in the power
company's grounded conductor, through the whole-house protector to the
120 line, from that line through the computer to modem to the phone
line, from there through the telco entrance lightning protector to the
telco entrance earth ground.

I discovered the problem and bonded the grounds before the next strike.
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment if the earth
grounds aren't bonded.

Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house'
protector. That means he should begin by asking questions
about his earthing system.

The only electrical path to my stereo and TV was from the hot wire to
the neutral. There was no ground wire. The antenna was rabbit ears.
...

If there is any other path by which a ground surge can affect you, a
single-point earth ground is a hazard to people and equipment. I have
two points here. I needed four points at the farm to stop damage. A
lineman I know needed three points at his house.

Ironic that Choreboy would mention Zerosurge. Zerosurge
demonstrates with pictures how ineffective plug-in protectors
can be:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

They even remove MOVs from a plug-in protector; remove the
protection components. Lights still say the protector is
working just fine. What kind of protection is that?
Ineffective - and a protector that also is not properly
earthed. Even lights that are suppose to report a good
plug-in protector are 'lying by telling half truths'.

In the meantime, Zerosurge forgets to mention that a
transient bypasses the series mode protector via safety ground
wire. Which is better - series mode protectors or plug-in
shunt mode protectors? At least the $100 Zerosurge product
does supplement an effectively earthed 'whole house' protector
(and provides other advantages). The traditional $15 or $50
power strip (or UPS) protector does nothing effective for one
simple and obvious reason - all but no earth ground. No earth
ground means plug-in protectors are ineffective as well as
overpriced and undersized. And then we have those lights.
Zerosurge pictures even demonstrate the problems.

Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all discussion
about earthing.

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.

Rudy demonstrated that a $3 retail power strip with some
$0.10 components sold for how much money? A protector, so
grossly undersized, was damaged by the same tiny transient
that could not overwhelm a computer's internal protection.

For that matter, almost $100 for the equivalent protector
from Monster Cable would also provide superior protection?
How many joules on that APC? Price does not say the APC
protected anything. Damage says it protected nothing. Joules
may explain why a tiny transient could damage the overpriced
protector. Rudy provides no facts that say an APC did
anything except what it was suppose to do: fail quickly to
promote protection myths. An undersized protector failed.
Others then assume protector failure (which violates
manufacturer data sheets) is normal. Then recommend that
grossly undersized (ineffective) product. Only proves one can
even sell snake oil to just about anyone.

Rudy wrote:
All I know is that the APC wasnt cheap. Some "surge" protected
bars were around $ 10-15 The APC was closer to $30+ ( cheap
considering the computer system it was protecting cost 3 grand)
but sure worked well and of course, I got its replacement free.
Its now protecting my 46" Hitachi HDTV

"LN 330V LG 330V NG 330V" simply says that up to 330 volt
transients of any type can directly confront the appliance and
will be ignored by the protector. Just another reason why
appliances must have internal protection. It does not say
which type of transients above 330 volts will be seen.

Protectors (if I remember correctly) must list these
threshold or let-through voltages AND must also list their
joules to obtain a UL approval. Grossly undersized plug-in
protectors often hope you will overlook the joules rating.
Joules determine a protector's life expectancy. A protector
that fails on the first transient is grossly undersized -
ineffective.

Described in that Tucson home is what should be installed in
all new buildings. Ufer grounding is one of the most
effective earthing methods. A 10 foot earth ground rod is
sufficient for human safety. But for transistor safety, a
better earth ground means superior transistor safety. An Ufer
ground costs so little and does so much. But it means the
protection system (earthing) must be planned before footing
are poured. Better protection that costs so little starts
with the very first construction activity - when footing for
the foundation are constructed. Unfortunately, we still
build new homes as if the transistor did not exist.

Rudy wrote:
So are you saying that this "protector" isn't capable of protecting
my computer or TV now ? It doesn't say how many joules its rated
for, just the following : LN 330V LG 330V NG 330V Does this
go for the millions of surge protectors that nearly every home in
North America is using to protect their home electronics ?

As far as grounding goes, my former home (also in the Tucson
monsoon area) was grounded by a ~ 1/8" copper ground wire
connected thru my service box to the rebar in the foundation.
There was another one from the Satellite dish, to the bottom
plate J bolts to the rebar again

R

w_tom wrote:

Appliances already contains a dike.

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

Internal protection
that can be overwhelmed if the primary and secondary
protection systems are not installed. What is the most
critical component of primary and secondary protection
systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that discussion.

They discussed it for me.


The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.


What is this transient picked up by a building's grounding
system especially during thunderstorms? If that transient
was so destructive, then nearby lightning would destroy
electronics literally tuned to the destructive frequencies of
lightning - AM radios. How many AM radios inside cars are
damaged after every thunderstorm.

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a
surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded
to it (or to earth).


Why is that damage number virtualy zero? Because those
mythical surges created by nearby lightning strikes are
promoted only on myth - without numbers.

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing
under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm
you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with
your feet together.



Choreboy demonstrates another myth:
.. the power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge
and bring it right to your house.

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from
surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a
retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning
surges from many miles around.

An example of 'lying by telling half truths'. A problem
eliminated when using the single point earth ground.

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The
lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept
destroying his well pump.


Again Choreboy muddies the water:
Earth ground is for human protection, ...
Yes. And it is also required for transistor safety - as was
posted both previously and repeatedly.

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih
no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a
static shock for humans.


Instead Choreboy states:
Earthing once cost me a computer.
Then he contradicts himself:
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment
if the earth grounds aren't bonded.
Which is it? Earthing causes damage or earthing is necessary?

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two utilities)
my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded, you need proper bonding.

Choreboy does not even
know what inside each appliance was damaged.

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see what
parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw the appliances away.


Choreboy had damage due to defects in his earthing system
which he eventually admits to.

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The only
thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral, which got by
my whole-house protector.

Again look at what goes inside a grossly overpriced plug-in
protector. To repeat it again: Take a $3 (retail) power
strip. Add some $0.10 components. Sell it as a surge
protector under the Monster Cable brand name for upwards of
$100. That's right. Ineffective protectors are undersized to
protect a profit margin; not the transistors.

Many spend massive money on plug-in protectors so grossly
undersized as to fail on the first transient. Failure on a
first transient means ineffective protection. And yet some
consumers actually worship that at $100, it must be good.
Monster Cable also sells cheap wire with connectors color
gold. People also foolishly spend $50 and $100 for speaker
wire only because Monster colored it gold. Then myth
purveyors declare gold Monster Cable will not corrode. Lying
by telling half truths. Amazing how people use price as if it
was science proof.

The $50 microwave has significant protection. Any $0.10
components that would be effective inside that $100 protector
are already inside the $50 microwave. The microwave's
internal protection could be overwhelmed if a 'whole house'
protector - the secondary protection system - is not
installed. Properly installed. The microwave remains at same
or higher risk if plugged into a $100 power strip protector.

Meanwhile, Zerosurge told you nothing useful about grounds.
Their 'executive summary' told you enough so that you think
you know about earthing. But Zerosurge did not even discuss
primary and secondary protection. They said their product
doesn't contaminate ground by dumping transients to ground.
So what does that mean? Nothing. Total nonsense. IOW they
told gobbledygook and you declared that as science fact? They
know how to lie to the right people. Notice that Zerosurge
did not even put one number with those 'application notes'.
No numbers means what? Junk science. They wrote junk
science.

Zerosurge explained all about earthing? You also believed a
lying president when he hyped myths about weapons of mass
destruction. WMDs also demonstrated how lies can be spin into
junk science facts when the want to believe rather than first
learn.

You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have
protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You
now admit that the building has two separate grounds.
Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't
discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse
still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead
that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need
know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything
about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.

You post as if surge protectors stop, block, or absorb
surges. A surge enter on one wire, damage the stereo, then
stops? Even second grade science students are taught that
electricity does not work that way. You had damage to a
grossly undersized plug-in protector. That says you have no
effective secondary protection and may not have primary
protection either. But then you actually tried to claim that
earthing does not provide the protection. As long as you
remain in denial, then of course you have no effective
protection. Such damage is directly traceable to human
failure. As long as you know because Zerosurge told you so
much, then transient damage is acceptable.

You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted
repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed? The
protector is not protection. Earthing is the protection.
Earthing - the thing repeatedly ignored. Earthing for
protection was well proven even before WWII. You think some
plug-in protector will stop what miles of sky could not? What
kind of nonsense is that? Well you had electronics damage.
IOW you had damage and still deny what is effective
protection. A problem traceable when a human promotes sales
brochure science.

Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth
grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has
same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by
lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part
of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point
ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit
that includes the struck tree.

Did EM field from a nearby strike kill those cows? Yes when
myth is taken as science fact. Those cows are cited only
because some actually believe (to the embarrassment of the
nation's education system) that a nearby lightning strike
induced death in cows. In reality the nearby lightning strike
passed right through those cows. Just another example of how
multiple earth grounds also cause appliance damage.

Same concept demonstrated in a picture from the NIST. Fax
machine also damaged because the building (like the cow) had
multiple and separate connections to ground.

Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles
around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires
that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason
why you must have a single point earth ground.

For human life protection, an earth ground is necessary. No
way around that. So that lightning passing through the ground
does not enter the house, pass through household appliances,
then leave via another ground, instead, you must have a single
point earth ground. But again, same reason why a cow under
the tree is harmed by lighting was demonstrated by that NIST
picture at:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Where did Zerosurge discuss any of this. Obviously they did
not. Too complex? Not helpful for selling a product? You
tell me. But Zerosurge also demonstrates how ineffective and
undersized your plug-in protector was. Remember that plug-in
protector you said protected a computer. Zerosurge
demonstrates that even MOVs all can be removed, and the
protector light says the protector is fine:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

That protector did not protect the computer. The computer
protected itself from a tiny transient. A transient too small
to harm the computer could easily destroy the grossly
undersized protector. Even Zerosurge pictures demonstrated
ineffective plug-in protectors.

Either don't trust Zerosurge or maybe that APC protector is
not what you think it was. So which is lying? Zerosurge or
APC? You cannot have it both ways. Either the APC is not
effective, or what you promoted from Zerosurge is not really
true.

Those two ground rods for AC electric are absolutely
essential to surge protection AND even so that a house does
not explode. The utility does not install earthing rods.
That was your responsibility as even required by the National
Electrical Code. Those earth ground rod did not cause
transistor damage as long as they are part of the single point
earth ground. But this means you must learn about earth
ground AND stop worshiping myths from those plug-in protector
manufacturers.

Somehow you just know those ground rod caused damage? Did
you also believe a lying president when he invented WMDs?
One must believe blindly to conclude that ground rods caused
damage. Absolutely no fact exist to make that wild
assumption. Furthermore, those myths have no numbers. But
somehow you just know anyway - just like those who believed a
lying president when the numbers were saying something
completely different.

Somehow you know those ground rods cause your damage?
Fine. First define the complete electrical circuit. To
conclude ground rods caused the damage, you cannot just say "a
lineman said this". That is hearsay. Define the electric
circuit created by those ground rods. You cannot. Again, you
have made assumptions rather than first learn facts.

Problems with your reasoning demonstrated FOUR different
ways.

Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that
stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would
be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo
would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of
damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass
across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path
when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients
enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients
leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered
on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged
components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had
extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in
protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many
damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and
exited elsewhere.

Let's assume a transient entered on hot and left on neutral.
The typically destructive transients don't enter that way.
But let's assume a transient comes down the hot wire seeking
what? Earth ground. What does a plug-in protector do for
this type of transient? Shunts the transient to neutral
wire. Now the transient is seeking earth ground,
destructively through appliance, from both hot and neutral
wire. The adjacent plug-in protector has provided more
destructive paths to earth via the adjacent appliance.
Welcome to the world of ineffective plug-in protectors - that
don't even claim to protect from this - the typically
destructive transient. Plug-in protectors can even provide
destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.

Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered
via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth
ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo
damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they
contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot
wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code
required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via
a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those
earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had
been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even
demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.

And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity
went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the
neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit?
Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire
and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to
support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like
weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the
damage stereo then go via neutral wire?

A building wire picks up radio frequencies because it is
grounded? Do you invent these things or do you have a source?
A car radio does not receive those frequencies because it is
not grounded? So the car radio does not play music and review
news updates - because it is not grounded. Which is it?
Either they both receive those frequencies or neither does.
How does household wiring create thousands of volts from the
same radio frequency source that does not even create a
destructive 10 volts inside the car radio? You listen to too
much speculation hyped into "this must be true" fact. Exactly
how a president could lie about WMDs. Most damning, where are
your numbers? They don't exist, do they.

That plug-in protector did nothing but self destruct so that
you would recommend it to the world. Its called a scam.
Somehow you have twisted a grossly undersized and overprice
protector into effective protection. You had a 'whole house'
protector. Therefore you assumed it was protection. Again,
and again, you repeatedly ignore - outrightly avoid, learning
about THE most essential component in a protection system:
earth ground. Your own speculations contradict themselves.
Why? You are promoting myths. And you deny what is effective
protection.

Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
Appliances already contains a dike.

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

What is the most critical component of primary and secondary
protection systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that
discussion.

They discussed it for me.

The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.
...

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a
surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded
to it (or to earth).
...

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing
under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm
you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with
your feet together.
...

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from
surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a
retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning
surges from many miles around.
...

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The
lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept
destroying his well pump.
...

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih
no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a
static shock for humans.
..

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two
utilities) my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded,
you need proper bonding.
...

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see
what parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw
the appliances away.
...

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The
only thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral,
which got by my whole-house protector.