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Choreboy
 
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w_tom wrote:



You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have
protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You
now admit that the building has two separate grounds.
Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't
discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse
still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead
that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need
know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything
about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.


In troubleshooting the computer damage years ago I found the phone and
power grounds unbonded. I bonded them because I'd known for 20 years
that bonding was required. I thought the lack of bonding was rare until
I talked to a telco man five years later. Still later, I read at the
Zero Surge site that the lack of bonding is a common and serious
problem. BTW, did you know no computer plugged into a Zero Surge
protector has ever been damaged?


You had damage to a
grossly undersized plug-in protector.


No damage to a protector. There was no plug-in protector for my TV and
stereo. I had foolishly trusted my whole-house protector.

That says you have no
effective secondary protection and may not have primary
protection either.


Don't you think there would be a lot more damage in this neighborhood if
the power company's lines weren't grounded?


You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted
repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed?


I wonder why I didn't see your question before. It's not buried in the
ground, but of course it's connected to the same neutral bar as the
power company's ground wire, eight feet from my ground rod.

Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth
grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has
same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by
lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part
of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point
ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit
that includes the struck tree.




Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles
around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires
that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason
why you must have a single point earth ground.


Most buildings are like cows in that multiple grounds are inevitable:
water supply, water drain, furnace, construction materials, power tool
lying on the ground. Your single-point theory has led to thousands of
deaths when people touched objects like faucets and phones during
thunderstorms. A building needs bonding. Sometimes it needs multiple
ground rods.


Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that
stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would
be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo
would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of
damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass
across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path
when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients
enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients
leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered
on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged
components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had
extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in
protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many
damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and
exited elsewhere.


Does electricity always choose the longest path to ground? Except the
rabbit ears, the only conductors within several feet of the TV were the
hot wire and the neutral. So now you're telling me the surge came in
through the plug and exited through a lightning bolt? I was watching
the TV. I saw no spark at all.


Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered
via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth
ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo
damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they
contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot
wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code
required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via
a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those
earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had
been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even
demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.


I'm the one who has been saying earthing had nothing to do with that
incident. Unbonded grounds had zapped a computer and modem years earlier.

And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity
went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the
neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit?
Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire
and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to
support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like
weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the
damage stereo then go via neutral wire?


Back to ground through the breaker box. That's where current flows
through all my neutral wires. Aren't your neutrals hooked up?

  #42   Report Post  
w_tom
 
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Speculated only (without any numbers) that all wire is
perfectly conductive. An effective protector is earthed via a
'less than 10 foot' connection. A phrase that has been
repeated how many times? Eight? Ten? Thirty? Distance is
critical because wires are electronic components - especially
when discussing destructive transients that occur within
microseconds.

Will that transient shunted by an adjacent 'plug-in'
protector go to earth ground via the neutral wire? Lets
assume a 50 foot connection to breaker box and earth ground.
That means a 'so trivial' transient of 100 amps must
transverse wire of less than 0.2 ohms resistance AND maybe 130
ohms impedance. 100 amps times 130 ohms is 13,000 volts. So
the computer and adjacent protector are at something less than
13000 volts relative to earth. How can this be? Welcome to
more electrical facts - especially earth ground - that plug-in
protectors forget to mention.

You tell me. Is that transient going to use a 13,000 volt
neutral wire? Or will it find other destructive paths to
earth? Other electrical conductors include the table,
linoleum floor tile, some wall paints, that baseboard heater.
Stereo is wired to speakers. Those speaker wire touch what?
Numerous conductive electrical paths may exist. Neither that
TV nor stereo was connected only to hot and neutral power
wire. A common destructive path through both would be
incoming on either or both AC wires, and then outgoing on any
one of so many other destructive paths.

If the transient only entered on AC hot and left on AC
neutral, then internal protection inside both TV and stereo
could have made that transient insignificant - no damage. But
then Choreboy describes an electric circuit that entered on AC
wire and exited somewhere else - as typically destructive
transients would do.

Lets assume, anyway, that entire 100 amp transient does
seek earth ground via the neutral wire. That wire is bundled
with other wires. That transient is inducing transients on
all other wires. What is connected to those other wires?
Stereo and TV. Just anther reason why the plug-in protector
was not effective.

The 'whole house' protector must make a 'less than 10 foot'
connection to the same earth ground used by telephone, cable,
and even satellite dish. You had a protector and suffered
damage? Then a protector did not connect to a single point
earth ground.

Do we dispute the generations of professionals who have
proven the critical need for single point ground? Lurkers can
access a list of industry professional citations at:
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus on 30 Mar 2005 entitled "UPS
unit needed for the P4C800E-Deluxe"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X61C23DCA

Unfortunately Choreboy provides no technical basis for his
assumptions. Multiple grounds are inevitable? Wrong. The
entire earth beneath a building could be one big single point
earth ground if we used what has long been available before
transistors even existed - Ufer grounding. It means building
new buildings as if the transistor existed. Other solutions
are suggested by utilities in that above long list of industry
professional citations.


In the meantime, Choreboy somehow assumes a plug-in
protector is earthed by a grossly undersized product that does
not even claim to provide that protection. He admits to
multiple earth grounds but denies they can cause damage even
though NIST figures demonstrate otherwise. He believes single
point earth ground can be dangerous. He provides no technical
reasons why nor even cites a single responsible citation or
number.

He had damage. The transient found earth ground,
destructively, via his stereo and TV because a human permitted
a transient inside the house. There is no way around those
facts demonstrated in a full day's reading from industry
professional citations. The protection is only as effective
as its earth ground.

Choreboy wrote:
In troubleshooting the computer damage years ago I found the phone and
power grounds unbonded. I bonded them because I'd known for 20 years
that bonding was required. I thought the lack of bonding was rare until
I talked to a telco man five years later. Still later, I read at the
Zero Surge site that the lack of bonding is a common and serious
problem. BTW, did you know no computer plugged into a Zero Surge
protector has ever been damaged?
...

Don't you think there would be a lot more damage in this neighborhood if
the power company's lines weren't grounded?
...

I wonder why I didn't see your question before. It's not buried in the
ground, but of course it's connected to the same neutral bar as the
power company's ground wire, eight feet from my ground rod.
...

Most buildings are like cows in that multiple grounds are inevitable:
water supply, water drain, furnace, construction materials, power tool
lying on the ground. Your single-point theory has led to thousands of
deaths when people touched objects like faucets and phones during
thunderstorms. A building needs bonding. Sometimes it needs multiple
ground rods.
...

Does electricity always choose the longest path to ground? Except the
rabbit ears, the only conductors within several feet of the TV were the
hot wire and the neutral. So now you're telling me the surge came in
through the plug and exited through a lightning bolt? I was watching
the TV. I saw no spark at all.
...

I'm the one who has been saying earthing had nothing to do with that
incident. Unbonded grounds had zapped a computer and modem years
earlier.
...

Back to ground through the breaker box. That's where current flows
through all my neutral wires. Aren't your neutrals hooked up?

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