I had an appointment Monday morning with the electrical inspector for him
to inspect the feeder circuit to my new detached garage. I took off from
work to be home; he showed up promptly at *noon* -- I was just about to
give up on him and leave. It went downhill from there.

I suspect he's a former electrician who went out of business, and he blames
homeowners doing their own wiring.

Several boxes were a little too small. I had only counted the devices as
one wire and they should have been two, so I was 1 to 2 cubic inches too
small on the box size. My mistake. I'll fix that.

The wiring is exposed NM-B, and mostly metal boxes. I stapled the wires
down the center of the 2x4's using a variety of types of staples. I have a
staple gun that shoots 9/16" (I think) staples that are UL listed for use
with NM cable. You're supposed to shoot 2 staples right next to each
other. I also had some plastic straps with 2 little captive nails leftover
from a previous job, and some Gardner Bender plastic coated heavy-duty
staples I bought at the electrical dept at Home Depot. I used either the
plastic strap staples or the heavy wire staples at each end of the cables,
and the staple gun every couple of feet along the cables. Inspector says I
can't use metal staples because they are not UL listed. He gleefully tells
me about seeing them all the time at HD and Menard's, and they're not
allowed by the electrical code. He tells me to use them next time I put up
a barbed wire fence or something. I showed him the box of staplegun
staples where it says "UL". He said I still can't use them. WTF? The
reason I have to pull out all the big wire staples is they are not listed,
but the UL listed staples are not allowed either, "just because"?

One of the receptacles I used was a heavy duty duplex outlet that is
back-wired and takes up to #10 wire. I specifically picked it because
there are two holes under each screw, so you could backwire 4 wires on
black and 4 wires on white. I had 3 wires on each side. Inspector says
you can only have 2 wires on each side of the device, but he can't show me
in the code where it says that. This is easy to redo, and it's one of the
boxes that was a little too small anyway, but it's another example of
making up rules on-the-spot.

The panel has a ground bar and a neutral bar. The neutral feeder wire is
connected to the neutral lug, the ground electrode conductor is connected
to the ground bar, and the green bonding screw is installed. I'm supposed
to move the ground electrode conductor to the neutral bar -- not a big deal
because it is long enough to reach. But why?

For the feeder wires to the panel, I used three #6 THHN wires in a 3/4"
EMT. I used black wire because that's all I could find, and I taped the
neutral wire white at each end. He says I gotta pull that neutral wire out
of there and run a new one that is white or green end-to-end from the
factory. I can't just spray paint it; it's gotta be a white or green (but
not bare) wire. That's legitimate I guess, but it's chicken****. I don't
know anyplace to buy white wire that big by the foot, so I may just run a
#4 aluminum wire and tape *it* white. I have a scrap long enough. But I
might have to increase the conduit to 1". Still, conduit is cheaper than
copper wire lately. I stopped by Home Depot tonight just to see if they
had white or green #6 wire, and of course they don't. The old guy there in
the electrical dept had never heard of the white-from-end-to-end rule being
enforced for #6 wires.

He wanted to look at my main panel in the house that is feeding this. I
showed him and he didn't like something; the number of breakers in the box,
or the wire bending distance, or something. I told him that *everything*
in the house, including the 60A breaker to the garage and the feeder
conductors up to the weatherhead were already inspected 10 years ago by one
of his colleagues, and the inspection sticker is *right there*. He
harrumphed, said he would have to talk with the other inspectors when he
got back to the office, and we went back out to the garage.

That's not all, but that's enough to make my point.

I'm still ****ed, just in case you can't tell.

I wish I lived out in the county instead of within the city limits.

I probably should have gotten a permit to run one 15A 110V underground
feeder out there. One receptical, one lightbulb inside the garage, one
porch light. (It's a new building, I had to do *something* electrical or
they'd be suspicious.) After getting it inspected, I could pull it up and
run my 60A overhead feeder without a permit. I'll know better next time.

Best regards,
Bob

Talk to an electrician for opinions and the person in charge of city
inspections to have a supervisor reinspect it. You may be right.

I just did a bunch of work on my house including a new roof. I though
about getting a permit, which is required by law, but decided against
it.
I've saved myself some money and feel good about it.

Pj



On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:23:12 -0600, zxcvbob
wrote:

I had an appointment Monday morning with the electrical inspector for him
to inspect the feeder circuit to my new detached garage. I took off from
work to be home; he showed up promptly at *noon* -- I was just about to
give up on him and leave. It went downhill from there.

I suspect he's a former electrician who went out of business, and he blames
homeowners doing their own wiring.

Several boxes were a little too small. I had only counted the devices as
one wire and they should have been two, so I was 1 to 2 cubic inches too
small on the box size. My mistake. I'll fix that.

The wiring is exposed NM-B, and mostly metal boxes. I stapled the wires
down the center of the 2x4's using a variety of types of staples. I have a
staple gun that shoots 9/16" (I think) staples that are UL listed for use
with NM cable. You're supposed to shoot 2 staples right next to each
other. I also had some plastic straps with 2 little captive nails leftover
from a previous job, and some Gardner Bender plastic coated heavy-duty
staples I bought at the electrical dept at Home Depot. I used either the
plastic strap staples or the heavy wire staples at each end of the cables,
and the staple gun every couple of feet along the cables. Inspector says I
can't use metal staples because they are not UL listed. He gleefully tells
me about seeing them all the time at HD and Menard's, and they're not
allowed by the electrical code. He tells me to use them next time I put up
a barbed wire fence or something. I showed him the box of staplegun
staples where it says "UL". He said I still can't use them. WTF? The
reason I have to pull out all the big wire staples is they are not listed,
but the UL listed staples are not allowed either, "just because"?

One of the receptacles I used was a heavy duty duplex outlet that is
back-wired and takes up to #10 wire. I specifically picked it because
there are two holes under each screw, so you could backwire 4 wires on
black and 4 wires on white. I had 3 wires on each side. Inspector says
you can only have 2 wires on each side of the device, but he can't show me
in the code where it says that. This is easy to redo, and it's one of the
boxes that was a little too small anyway, but it's another example of
making up rules on-the-spot.

The panel has a ground bar and a neutral bar. The neutral feeder wire is
connected to the neutral lug, the ground electrode conductor is connected
to the ground bar, and the green bonding screw is installed. I'm supposed
to move the ground electrode conductor to the neutral bar -- not a big deal
because it is long enough to reach. But why?

For the feeder wires to the panel, I used three #6 THHN wires in a 3/4"
EMT. I used black wire because that's all I could find, and I taped the
neutral wire white at each end. He says I gotta pull that neutral wire out
of there and run a new one that is white or green end-to-end from the
factory. I can't just spray paint it; it's gotta be a white or green (but
not bare) wire. That's legitimate I guess, but it's chicken****. I don't
know anyplace to buy white wire that big by the foot, so I may just run a
#4 aluminum wire and tape *it* white. I have a scrap long enough. But I
might have to increase the conduit to 1". Still, conduit is cheaper than
copper wire lately. I stopped by Home Depot tonight just to see if they
had white or green #6 wire, and of course they don't. The old guy there in
the electrical dept had never heard of the white-from-end-to-end rule being
enforced for #6 wires.

He wanted to look at my main panel in the house that is feeding this. I
showed him and he didn't like something; the number of breakers in the box,
or the wire bending distance, or something. I told him that *everything*
in the house, including the 60A breaker to the garage and the feeder
conductors up to the weatherhead were already inspected 10 years ago by one
of his colleagues, and the inspection sticker is *right there*. He
harrumphed, said he would have to talk with the other inspectors when he
got back to the office, and we went back out to the garage.

That's not all, but that's enough to make my point.

I'm still ****ed, just in case you can't tell.

I wish I lived out in the county instead of within the city limits.

I probably should have gotten a permit to run one 15A 110V underground
feeder out there. One receptical, one lightbulb inside the garage, one
porch light. (It's a new building, I had to do *something* electrical or
they'd be suspicious.) After getting it inspected, I could pull it up and
run my 60A overhead feeder without a permit. I'll know better next time.

Best regards,
Bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
I had an appointment Monday morning with the electrical inspector for him
to inspect the feeder circuit to my new detached garage. I took off from
work to be home; he showed up promptly at *noon* -- I was just about to
give up on him and leave. It went downhill from there.

I suspect he's a former electrician who went out of business, and he
blames
homeowners doing their own wiring.

Several boxes were a little too small. I had only counted the devices as
one wire and they should have been two, so I was 1 to 2 cubic inches too
small on the box size. My mistake. I'll fix that.

The wiring is exposed NM-B, and mostly metal boxes. I stapled the wires
down the center of the 2x4's using a variety of types of staples. I have
a
staple gun that shoots 9/16" (I think) staples that are UL listed for use
with NM cable. You're supposed to shoot 2 staples right next to each
other. I also had some plastic straps with 2 little captive nails
leftover
from a previous job, and some Gardner Bender plastic coated heavy-duty
staples I bought at the electrical dept at Home Depot. I used either the
plastic strap staples or the heavy wire staples at each end of the cables,
and the staple gun every couple of feet along the cables. Inspector says
I
can't use metal staples because they are not UL listed. He gleefully
tells
me about seeing them all the time at HD and Menard's, and they're not
allowed by the electrical code. He tells me to use them next time I put
up
a barbed wire fence or something. I showed him the box of staplegun
staples where it says "UL". He said I still can't use them. WTF? The
reason I have to pull out all the big wire staples is they are not listed,
but the UL listed staples are not allowed either, "just because"?

One of the receptacles I used was a heavy duty duplex outlet that is
back-wired and takes up to #10 wire. I specifically picked it because
there are two holes under each screw, so you could backwire 4 wires on
black and 4 wires on white. I had 3 wires on each side. Inspector says
you can only have 2 wires on each side of the device, but he can't show me
in the code where it says that. This is easy to redo, and it's one of the
boxes that was a little too small anyway, but it's another example of
making up rules on-the-spot.

The panel has a ground bar and a neutral bar. The neutral feeder wire is
connected to the neutral lug, the ground electrode conductor is connected
to the ground bar, and the green bonding screw is installed. I'm supposed
to move the ground electrode conductor to the neutral bar -- not a big
deal
because it is long enough to reach. But why?

For the feeder wires to the panel, I used three #6 THHN wires in a 3/4"
EMT. I used black wire because that's all I could find, and I taped the
neutral wire white at each end. He says I gotta pull that neutral wire
out
of there and run a new one that is white or green end-to-end from the
factory. I can't just spray paint it; it's gotta be a white or green (but
not bare) wire. That's legitimate I guess, but it's chicken****. I don't
know anyplace to buy white wire that big by the foot, so I may just run a
#4 aluminum wire and tape *it* white. I have a scrap long enough. But I
might have to increase the conduit to 1". Still, conduit is cheaper than
copper wire lately. I stopped by Home Depot tonight just to see if they
had white or green #6 wire, and of course they don't. The old guy there
in
the electrical dept had never heard of the white-from-end-to-end rule
being
enforced for #6 wires.

He wanted to look at my main panel in the house that is feeding this. I
showed him and he didn't like something; the number of breakers in the
box,
or the wire bending distance, or something. I told him that *everything*
in the house, including the 60A breaker to the garage and the feeder
conductors up to the weatherhead were already inspected 10 years ago by
one
of his colleagues, and the inspection sticker is *right there*. He
harrumphed, said he would have to talk with the other inspectors when he
got back to the office, and we went back out to the garage.

That's not all, but that's enough to make my point.

I'm still ****ed, just in case you can't tell.

I wish I lived out in the county instead of within the city limits.

I probably should have gotten a permit to run one 15A 110V underground
feeder out there. One receptical, one lightbulb inside the garage, one
porch light. (It's a new building, I had to do *something* electrical or
they'd be suspicious.) After getting it inspected, I could pull it up and
run my 60A overhead feeder without a permit. I'll know better next time.

Best regards,
Bob

Sounds like your inspector has a chip on his shoulder, possibly for the
reasons you stated.
Have you contacted someone else at your state board of electricity, or
whoever inspects in your area?
Maybe they could send out someone else?
You should certainly be able to use black wire for your neutral, as long as
it was coded white.

For contrast, I just did some relatively extensive wiring, added a sub panel
to basement, added circuits for lights and outlets and a hot tub, all
feeding from my new sub. The electrical inspector was a pleasure to work
with. He was fair, polite, and very talkative on the how's and why's on the
few things I had to re-do.

They should realize that treating homeowners like you were treated will make
some people likely to skip the permits on future work.

Dave

DaveG wrote:
"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

I had an appointment Monday morning with the electrical inspector for him
to inspect the feeder circuit to my new detached garage. I took off from
work to be home; he showed up promptly at *noon* -- I was just about to
give up on him and leave. It went downhill from there.

I suspect he's a former electrician who went out of business, and he

blames

homeowners doing their own wiring.

Several boxes were a little too small. I had only counted the devices as
one wire and they should have been two, so I was 1 to 2 cubic inches too
small on the box size. My mistake. I'll fix that.

The wiring is exposed NM-B, and mostly metal boxes. I stapled the wires
down the center of the 2x4's using a variety of types of staples. I have

a

staple gun that shoots 9/16" (I think) staples that are UL listed for use
with NM cable. You're supposed to shoot 2 staples right next to each
other. I also had some plastic straps with 2 little captive nails

leftover

from a previous job, and some Gardner Bender plastic coated heavy-duty
staples I bought at the electrical dept at Home Depot. I used either the
plastic strap staples or the heavy wire staples at each end of the cables,
and the staple gun every couple of feet along the cables. Inspector says

I

can't use metal staples because they are not UL listed. He gleefully

tells

me about seeing them all the time at HD and Menard's, and they're not
allowed by the electrical code. He tells me to use them next time I put

up

a barbed wire fence or something. I showed him the box of staplegun
staples where it says "UL". He said I still can't use them. WTF? The
reason I have to pull out all the big wire staples is they are not listed,
but the UL listed staples are not allowed either, "just because"?

One of the receptacles I used was a heavy duty duplex outlet that is
back-wired and takes up to #10 wire. I specifically picked it because
there are two holes under each screw, so you could backwire 4 wires on
black and 4 wires on white. I had 3 wires on each side. Inspector says
you can only have 2 wires on each side of the device, but he can't show me
in the code where it says that. This is easy to redo, and it's one of the
boxes that was a little too small anyway, but it's another example of
making up rules on-the-spot.

The panel has a ground bar and a neutral bar. The neutral feeder wire is
connected to the neutral lug, the ground electrode conductor is connected
to the ground bar, and the green bonding screw is installed. I'm supposed
to move the ground electrode conductor to the neutral bar -- not a big

deal

because it is long enough to reach. But why?

For the feeder wires to the panel, I used three #6 THHN wires in a 3/4"
EMT. I used black wire because that's all I could find, and I taped the
neutral wire white at each end. He says I gotta pull that neutral wire

out

of there and run a new one that is white or green end-to-end from the
factory. I can't just spray paint it; it's gotta be a white or green (but
not bare) wire. That's legitimate I guess, but it's chicken****. I don't
know anyplace to buy white wire that big by the foot, so I may just run a
#4 aluminum wire and tape *it* white. I have a scrap long enough. But I
might have to increase the conduit to 1". Still, conduit is cheaper than
copper wire lately. I stopped by Home Depot tonight just to see if they
had white or green #6 wire, and of course they don't. The old guy there

in

the electrical dept had never heard of the white-from-end-to-end rule

being

enforced for #6 wires.

He wanted to look at my main panel in the house that is feeding this. I
showed him and he didn't like something; the number of breakers in the

box,

or the wire bending distance, or something. I told him that *everything*
in the house, including the 60A breaker to the garage and the feeder
conductors up to the weatherhead were already inspected 10 years ago by

one

of his colleagues, and the inspection sticker is *right there*. He
harrumphed, said he would have to talk with the other inspectors when he
got back to the office, and we went back out to the garage.

That's not all, but that's enough to make my point.

I'm still ****ed, just in case you can't tell.

I wish I lived out in the county instead of within the city limits.

I probably should have gotten a permit to run one 15A 110V underground
feeder out there. One receptical, one lightbulb inside the garage, one
porch light. (It's a new building, I had to do *something* electrical or
they'd be suspicious.) After getting it inspected, I could pull it up and
run my 60A overhead feeder without a permit. I'll know better next time.

Best regards,
Bob


Sounds like your inspector has a chip on his shoulder, possibly for the
reasons you stated.
Have you contacted someone else at your state board of electricity, or
whoever inspects in your area?
Maybe they could send out someone else?
You should certainly be able to use black wire for your neutral, as long as
it was coded white.

Although it's not typically enforced the NEC only lets you tape "larger
than #6" not #6. [NEC 310-12(a). NEC200-6(a) doesn't permit taping
either for #6.] You got hold of an inspector who doesn't want your
installation to pass. The NEC, if applied without discretion would
cause every installation to fail.

RB


For contrast, I just did some relatively extensive wiring, added a sub panel
to basement, added circuits for lights and outlets and a hot tub, all
feeding from my new sub. The electrical inspector was a pleasure to work
with. He was fair, polite, and very talkative on the how's and why's on the
few things I had to re-do.

They should realize that treating homeowners like you were treated will make
some people likely to skip the permits on future work.

Dave

DaveG wrote:
Sounds like your inspector has a chip on his shoulder, possibly for the
reasons you stated. Have you contacted someone else at your state board
of electricity, or whoever inspects in your area? Maybe they could send
out someone else? You should certainly be able to use black wire for
your neutral, as long as it was coded white.

For contrast, I just did some relatively extensive wiring, added a sub
panel to basement, added circuits for lights and outlets and a hot tub,
all feeding from my new sub. The electrical inspector was a pleasure to
work with. He was fair, polite, and very talkative on the how's and
why's on the few things I had to re-do.

I replaced my old 60A fusebox service with 150A breaker panel ten years
ago, including a 60A overhead feeder to the garage using the old service
wires -- identical to this new one. The garage panel was part of that
permit. That inspector was easy to work with (but he did make me redo a
few things), and he told me I had done a good job when I was done. This
inspector didn't even like the previously inspected main panel.

They should realize that treating homeowners like you were treated will
make some people likely to skip the permits on future work.

I know a supervisor in the Building Safety office (where the inspectors
work.) Next time I see him in church I think I'll tell him that I regret
getting a permit for this work and see what he says. Also ask what happens
if I let the permit expire without getting a final inspection.

-bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
I had an appointment Monday morning with the electrical inspector for him
to inspect the feeder circuit to my new detached garage. I took off from
work to be home; he showed up promptly at *noon* -- I was just about to
give up on him and leave. It went downhill from there.

I suspect he's a former electrician who went out of business, and he
blames
homeowners doing their own wiring.
snipped
Best regards,
Bob

First you must decide if this is worth your effort. Personally I would be
wiring a complaint and demanding to see a supervisor. Which can be a mixed
blessing.
The guy should be able to quote the sections of the NEC or municipal code
that apply. If he can not then it is supervisor time.
Failing to complete the project with in limits only puts you and your
property at risk of civil intervention. They might do nothing or they could
take you to court.

Take a walk and cool down. Then decide if you want to tilt at some wind
mills. I would.

I was a manufactures rep and we were changing out all of the fused switches
to circuit breakers. The electrical inspector said we could not do that. I
explained that I was the factory and the service would be tested
appropriately on completion. He refused and called his supervisor. A man
that I have known for 25 years. oops
I showed the supervisor the UL labels and listings for what we were doing
and explained the testing procedure that would be done when the installation
was finished. He asked for his inspector to be present. I explained that
time was a factor and we could not hold up the project. I would give him 24
hours notice and we would proceed with the tests with or without him.
Agreed. I turned to the inspector and said we would be testing at 8:30 in
the morning and he was welcome to attend. The inspector never showed up and
we moved on.

Dont let your permit expire you wont get a cert of ocupancy. Big
trouble. And you cant sell it and Dont wait till church get the
supervisor and indepenant advise . This guy is maybe wrong now time is
in your favor its your responsibilty for final inspection not the citys,
they realy dont care. You may be fined to.

Bob,

Sorry to hear about your unpleasant inspection. I recently wired our new
house and, thankfully, it went rather smoothly. The first words my
inspector said was "let's talk about electricity". So, I knew immediately
he was expecting a total homeowner botch job. But, I let him say his piece,
tried to pay attention and let him inspect my work. As he started looking
things over his comments slowly turned from grade school electricity to
"Wow! this is nice! I should bring the contractors out to see how it's
SUPPOSED to be done". I passed with flying colors the first time out.

My only real mistake was not running a separate ground wire in the few
metal boxes I had used. I figured they were grounded through the
tabs of the devices that had the grounds attached. My mistake. He let it
pass, but I fixed it after he left.

Several boxes were a little too small.

I hate cramped boxes, so I went as large as I could on everything, even if
it wasn't required by code.

The wiring is exposed NM-B

I didn't think NM cable could be left exposed? I thought it had to be
covered or else you had to run wires in conduit? Don't know for sure.

I have a staple gun that shoots 9/16" (I think) staples that
are UL listed for use with NM cable.

They may be UL listed but not necessarily NEC approved?

In any case, I wouldn't feel comfortable with wire staples, or even those
vinyl covered metal staples. Just my preference. I prefer the little
plastic straps with the two nails. Non-conductive, just in case...

seeing them all the time at HD and Menard's, and they're not allowed
by the electrical code.

I see stuff at Home Depot and Lowes all the time that I know is against
plumbing and electrical codes. Doesn't seem to prevent them from selling
the stuff?

Inspector says you can only have 2 wires on each side of the device

The best way to do this is to join all the wires with the appropriate wire
nut inside the box, with a pigtail running to the device. That way if the
device fails for some reason, the rest of the circuit doesn't go dead. And,
you aren't running the full circuit load through that device.

I'm supposed to move the ground electrode conductor to the neutral
bar -- not a big deal because it is long enough to reach. But why?

You got me on that one. My panel has specific lugs for the hots, neutral,
and ground connections, with a bonding screw to ground the cabinet, and a
bar to connect the neutral and ground bars.

He says I gotta pull that neutral wire out of there and run
a new one that is white or green end-to-end from the factory.

Haven't run across that either, but I use 4/0 copper service entrance
cables for my supply (three black wires, the neutral has a green stripe).

You might check with electrical supply stores in your area. They'll often
have the unique stuff that the box stores don't carry.

That's not all, but that's enough to make my point.

Right or not, the inspector is basically the final rule. I'm pretty sure
this is even stated in the electrical code.

Everyone has a bad day. Maybe you were just unlucky enough to catch him on
one of his. There may be "workmanship" issues that set off red flags to him
that made him take a closer look at the small stuff. Who knows...

In any case, it's all for your safety anyway, so even if it's not
necessary, humor the inspector and do whatever it takes to make him/her
happy. Sooner or later they'll run out of things to nitpick and you'll
pass.

Good luck,

Anthony

Bob,

It's hard to tell from your one sided post if the inspector had an
attitude problem. It does sound as if he was late though you don't say at
what time he hoped to arrive at your home. But other than that what is your
complaint? He told you what he believed to be wrong with your work and how
to fix it. Do you think that he is misinterpreting the code? Was he rude or
abrupt? In characterizing the inspector as "a former electrician who went
out of business, and he blames homeowners doing their own wiring." you make
it clear that you have an attitude problem.
It's possible that the man was having a bad day but I doubt that would
lead him to go over your wiring and carefully explain to you all of the
defects in your workmanship and materials. If you truly need to pursue this,
research your local building code and determine whether your work is up to
code, then file a complaint with his supervisor.

Dave M.

David Martel wrote:
Bob,

It's hard to tell from your one sided post if the inspector had an
attitude problem. It does sound as if he was late though you don't say at
what time he hoped to arrive at your home. But other than that what is your
complaint? He told you what he believed to be wrong with your work and how
to fix it. Do you think that he is misinterpreting the code? Was he rude or
abrupt? In characterizing the inspector as "a former electrician who went
out of business, and he blames homeowners doing their own wiring." you make
it clear that you have an attitude problem.
It's possible that the man was having a bad day but I doubt that would
lead him to go over your wiring and carefully explain to you all of the
defects in your workmanship and materials. If you truly need to pursue this,
research your local building code and determine whether your work is up to
code, then file a complaint with his supervisor.

Dave M.


I've already changed the undersized boxes and removed most of the
nonlisted staples. I do have an attitude problem, and it gets worse the
more I think about it.

He was sarcastic and belittling. He said he would be there probably
about 10:00 and he didn't show up until noon. When he was looking at
the service panel in my basement, he disconnected a cable TV ground wire
that was in his way, and he didn't hook it back up again.

He said the #6 neutral wire had to be marked white or gray or green from
end-to-end by the manufacturer. The code doesn't say that; I just
looked it up:
"310-12 (a) Grounded Conductors. Insulated conductors of No. 6 or
smaller, intended for use as grounded conductors of circuits, shall have
an outer identification of a white or natural gray color" [doesn't say
green, doesn't say continuous]

Article 310-12(b) is for equipment grounding conductors, and *it* says
the covering must have a continuous green covering or green stripe, and
it has an exception allowing the just the ends to be taped green "where
conditions of maintenance and supervision blah blah blah"

He's trying to apply parts of article 310-12b that don't really apply to
article 310-12a. 310-12a doesn't have an exception about taping the
ends white under "conditions of maintenance and supervision" because no
exception is necessary.

Best regards,
Bob

I've already changed the undersized boxes and removed most of the
nonlisted staples. I do have an attitude problem, and it gets worse the
more I think about it.

Then stop thinking about it. You can't win, you'll just get madder.

He was sarcastic and belittling. He said he would be there probably
about 10:00 and he didn't show up until noon. When he was looking at
the service panel in my basement, he disconnected a cable TV ground wire
that was in his way, and he didn't hook it back up again.

The ground may have been a mistake, and isn't a big deal. Approximate
times are just that, he showed up a few hours late. He has other
places to inspect, you don't. You could have called and canceled the
inspection if it was an issue to you.

He said the #6 neutral wire had to be marked white or gray or green from
end-to-end by the manufacturer. The code doesn't say that; I just
looked it up:
"310-12 (a) Grounded Conductors. Insulated conductors of No. 6 or
smaller, intended for use as grounded conductors of circuits, shall have
an outer identification of a white or natural gray color" [doesn't say
green, doesn't say continuous]

Article 310-12(b) is for equipment grounding conductors, and *it* says
the covering must have a continuous green covering or green stripe, and
it has an exception allowing the just the ends to be taped green "where
conditions of maintenance and supervision blah blah blah"

He's trying to apply parts of article 310-12b that don't really apply to
article 310-12a. 310-12a doesn't have an exception about taping the
ends white under "conditions of maintenance and supervision" because no
exception is necessary.

*All* code is as interpreted by the inspector and/or building
official.

Stop ****ing and moaning. Either fix the problems so you pass the
inspection or call the building official and ask for a grievance
hearing.

Jeff

@charter.net wrote in message ...
He said the #6 neutral wire had to be marked white or gray or green from
end-to-end by the manufacturer. The code doesn't say that; I just
looked it up:
"310-12 (a) Grounded Conductors. Insulated conductors of No. 6 or
smaller, intended for use as grounded conductors of circuits, shall have
an outer identification of a white or natural gray color" [doesn't say
green, doesn't say continuous]

The grounded conductor is your NEUTRAL. It must be totally white or grey in sizes 6 and smaller. My
Home Depot carries 3 and usually 4 colors in sizes 6 - 14. The inspector is correct that you must
replace the neutral, but to me this is a rather picky item if you've done a good job recoloring it.

Equipment groundING conductors are bare, green, or green with a yellow stripe. If you ran a 3 wire
feeder, you have no equipment grounding conductor in that feeder (assuming you have 120V loads).

I don't know why he wants you to move your grounding electrode conductor to the other bus -- the
busses are basically one and the same since you've got the bonding screw installed.


Article 310-12(b) is for equipment grounding conductors, and *it* says
the covering must have a continuous green covering or green stripe, and
it has an exception allowing the just the ends to be taped green "where
conditions of maintenance and supervision blah blah blah"

He's trying to apply parts of article 310-12b that don't really apply to
article 310-12a. 310-12a doesn't have an exception about taping the
ends white under "conditions of maintenance and supervision" because no
exception is necessary.

Sounds like you both need to learn the difference between groundING and groundED. If you plan to
have 120V loads in your panel, the wire must be white. It its 240V only, it can be green (and I'd
remove the neutral bus to avoid any possible future confusion). You could also run a 4 wire feeder
with 2 blacks, a white, and a green. Then, the green and white must terminate on isolated busses
(with the green wire bus bonded to the panel chassis).

--
Mark
Kent, WA

Mark or Sue wrote:
@charter.net wrote in message
...

He said the #6 neutral wire had to be marked white or gray or green
from end-to-end by the manufacturer. The code doesn't say that; I
just looked it up: "310-12 (a) Grounded Conductors. Insulated
conductors of No. 6 or smaller, intended for use as grounded
conductors of circuits, shall have an outer identification of a white
or natural gray color" [doesn't say green, doesn't say continuous]


The grounded conductor is your NEUTRAL. It must be totally white or grey
in sizes 6 and smaller. My Home Depot carries 3 and usually 4 colors in
sizes 6 - 14. The inspector is correct that you must replace the
neutral, but to me this is a rather picky item if you've done a good job
recoloring it.

Equipment groundING conductors are bare, green, or green with a yellow
stripe. If you ran a 3 wire feeder, you have no equipment grounding
conductor in that feeder (assuming you have 120V loads).

I don't know why he wants you to move your grounding electrode conductor
to the other bus -- the busses are basically one and the same since
you've got the bonding screw installed.



Article 310-12(b) is for equipment grounding conductors, and *it* says
the covering must have a continuous green covering or green stripe,
and it has an exception allowing the just the ends to be taped green
"where conditions of maintenance and supervision blah blah blah"

He's trying to apply parts of article 310-12b that don't really apply
to article 310-12a. 310-12a doesn't have an exception about taping
the ends white under "conditions of maintenance and supervision"
because no exception is necessary.


Sounds like you both need to learn the difference between groundING and
groundED. If you plan to have 120V loads in your panel, the wire must be
white. It its 240V only, it can be green (and I'd remove the neutral bus
to avoid any possible future confusion). You could also run a 4 wire
feeder with 2 blacks, a white, and a green. Then, the green and white
must terminate on isolated busses (with the green wire bus bonded to the
panel chassis).



This is a 120/240 three wire feeder. The neutral is groundED, and I make a
new groundING conductor at the building.

The wire has to be white (or gray, but *not* green), but unless 310-12(a)
has been rewritten recently, it does not say the wire must be white
continuous from end-to-end. Therefore taping the ends (which I did) should
be OK. I only mentioned 310-12(b) because that's where it says a wire
smaller than #4 must be continuous green or green striped from end-to-end;
it has an exception for just marking the ends "under conditions of
maintenence and supervision".

Since Inspector said the wire could be white or green, I'd have to say he
just barely knows what he's talking about (I'm being generous here) and
he's making all this up as he goes.

When I finish redoing everything that actually is wrong (the undersize
boxes, replace the rest of the non-listed staples, install clamps instead
of just plastic bushings where cables enter the panel), I'll call and ask
for a supervisor to reinspect it.

-Bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message ...
This is a 120/240 three wire feeder. The neutral is groundED, and I make a
new groundING conductor at the building.

The wire has to be white (or gray, but *not* green), but unless 310-12(a)
has been rewritten recently, it does not say the wire must be white
continuous from end-to-end. Therefore taping the ends (which I did) should
be OK. I only mentioned 310-12(b) because that's where it says a wire
smaller than #4 must be continuous green or green striped from end-to-end;
it has an exception for just marking the ends "under conditions of
maintenence and supervision".

I think you have an old code book. If you are under the 2002 NEC it must be continuously white. Here
the applicable rule:

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified
by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green
insulation along its entire length. Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a white or
gray color but have colored tracer threads in the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall
be considered as meeting the provisions of this section. Insulated grounded conductors shall also be
permitted to be identified as follows:
(1) The grounded conductor of a mineral-insulated, metal sheathed cable shall be identified at the
time of installation by distinctive marking at its terminations.
(2) A single-conductor, sunlight-resistant, outdoor-rated cable used as a grounded conductor in
photovoltaic power systems as permitted by 690.31 shall be identified at the time of installation by
distinctive white marking at all terminations.
(3) Fixture wire shall comply with the requirements for grounded conductor identification as
specified in 402.8
(4) For aerial cable, the identification shall be as above, or by means of a ridge located on the
exterior of the cable so as to identify it.

--
Mark
Kent, WA

Mark or Sue wrote:
"zxcvbob" wrote in message ...

This is a 120/240 three wire feeder. The neutral is groundED, and I make a
new groundING conductor at the building.

The wire has to be white (or gray, but *not* green), but unless 310-12(a)
has been rewritten recently, it does not say the wire must be white
continuous from end-to-end. Therefore taping the ends (which I did) should
be OK. I only mentioned 310-12(b) because that's where it says a wire
smaller than #4 must be continuous green or green striped from end-to-end;
it has an exception for just marking the ends "under conditions of
maintenence and supervision".


I think you have an old code book. If you are under the 2002 NEC it must be continuously white. Here
the applicable rule:

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified
by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green
insulation along its entire length. Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a white or
gray color but have colored tracer threads in the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall
be considered as meeting the provisions of this section. Insulated grounded conductors shall also be
permitted to be identified as follows:
(1) The grounded conductor of a mineral-insulated, metal sheathed cable shall be identified at the
time of installation by distinctive marking at its terminations.
(2) A single-conductor, sunlight-resistant, outdoor-rated cable used as a grounded conductor in
photovoltaic power systems as permitted by 690.31 shall be identified at the time of installation by
distinctive white marking at all terminations.
(3) Fixture wire shall comply with the requirements for grounded conductor identification as
specified in 402.8
(4) For aerial cable, the identification shall be as above, or by means of a ridge located on the
exterior of the cable so as to identify it.

--
Mark
Kent, WA


My book is 1993. Also, I looked through a 1999 book last year and didn't
see anything like what you just quoted. Maybe it's new for 2002. Is there
an exception for "conditions of maintenence and supervision"? The
exception wouldn't apply here, but it would indicate that the inspector has
leeway when applying the rule and I could try asking politely about it.
(I've just figured out tonight that the *real issue* is probably that he
just doesn't like the overhead wiring method for feeder circuits, so he's
gonna make it as hard as possible for me) When I showed him my plans last
fall, he suggested that I run the feeder underground, even though I would
have to run at least 50' more wire (times 4 conductors) and somehow trench
under my back deck -- or else trench all the way around the house.

If I have to, I can replace the wire with that scrap of #4 aluminum wire
that I have (also black, but I *can* tape it).

Thanks, regards,
Bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message

My book is 1993. Also, I looked through a 1999 book last
year and didn't see anything like what you just quoted...


Cough Cough! Before you go accusing the building inspector of anything,
filing a grievance, etc., I would read the newest code book, see if there
are any addendums/updates to that book *and* see if your local governing
body has any local modifications to the electrical code (not unusual). The
local guys have the final say on this stuff. Also before installing your
aluminum wire, which I assume you will be running with copper wire, I would
ask a local electrical inspector if this would be OK. (In my area you can
go to their office during certain hours and ask questions before doing the
work.) These inspectors know a lot of electrical theory and I would not be
surprised if there was some reason for overhead lines to be the same type
wire due to inductance (electrical interaction between wires) or whatever.
(I don't know, but best to ask ahead of time.) For example of weird
situations which can occur: They had me install ground lugs on both ends of
a conduit carrying only a ground wire to prevent a possible "choke"
condition. This is where the conduit could act as a "coil" in the way it
interacts with the ground wire [were it not grounded at both ends].
(Advanced electrician stuff.)

Reminds me of a story of my own. I bought a new house and was moving a
small portable spa to it.
I knew a guy who was a part time electrician, so I asked him to install a
sub panel and run a 40 AMP
GFCI circuit to the outside location. He wanted to do it the right way and
take out a permit. I was
very reluctant, figuring we could be in for lots of trouble, but finally I
agreed.

He goes over to the building dept and gets an education. The building
inspector gave
him a copy of a proposed BOCA code that requires SPAs to have a cover that
is strong enough to
support rescue workers walking on it. Can you believe it? For a small 2
to3 person SPA? And it
was only a proposed code. Virtually every spa I ever saw doesn't have a
cover that would meet
this.

Needless to say, he was now in agreement with my point of view.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:50:46 GMT, "Horizon99"
wrote:

Reminds me of a story of my own. I bought a new house and was moving a
small portable spa to it.
I knew a guy who was a part time electrician, so I asked him to install a
sub panel and run a 40 AMP
GFCI circuit to the outside location. He wanted to do it the right way and
take out a permit. I was
very reluctant, figuring we could be in for lots of trouble, but finally I
agreed.

He goes over to the building dept and gets an education. The building
inspector gave
him a copy of a proposed BOCA code that requires SPAs to have a cover that
is strong enough to
support rescue workers walking on it. Can you believe it? For a small 2
to3 person SPA? And it
was only a proposed code. Virtually every spa I ever saw doesn't have a
cover that would meet
this.

Needless to say, he was now in agreement with my point of view.

Well, there you go.

PJx wrote:
I just did a bunch of work on my house including a new roof. I though
about getting a permit, which is required by law, but decided against
it.
I've saved myself some money and feel good about it.

Yeah? Well, when you sell the house you might have to get a permit and
get it inspected or else remove it. That happens around here all the
time, at least.

--
I know God will not give me anything I can't handle.
I just wish that He didn't trust me so much. - Mother Teresa

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:07:35 GMT, Melinda Meahan - remove TRASH to
reply wrote:

PJx wrote:
I just did a bunch of work on my house including a new roof. I though
about getting a permit, which is required by law, but decided against
it.
I've saved myself some money and feel good about it.

Yeah? Well, when you sell the house you might have to get a permit and
get it inspected or else remove it. That happens around here all the
time, at least.

You have some 'big brothers' that are spying on you up there? We
don't allow that here in Texas. We shoot em.
Pj

When I lived in Texas we all knew that the way to pass an elctrical
inspection was to leave at least a $20 bill in the entrance panel.
Green bill begets green tag.

RB

PJx wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:07:35 GMT, Melinda Meahan - remove TRASH to
reply wrote:


PJx wrote:

I just did a bunch of work on my house including a new roof. I though
about getting a permit, which is required by law, but decided against
it.
I've saved myself some money and feel good about it.

Yeah? Well, when you sell the house you might have to get a permit and
get it inspected or else remove it. That happens around here all the
time, at least.


You have some 'big brothers' that are spying on you up there? We
don't allow that here in Texas. We shoot em.
Pj

RB wrote:

When I lived in Texas we all knew that the way to pass an elctrical
inspection was to leave at least a $20 bill in the entrance panel. Green
bill begets green tag.



Damn! I've been away from Texas *way* too long, and I forgot all about
that. Coulda saved myself a lot of rework....

-Bob