Arfa Daily wrote:

Here's a really interesting site

http://www.oksolar.com/led/led_color_chart.htm

Follow the various page links to the chromaticity chart, and " More
information on LEDs" at the bottom. I didn't realise that they were already
in use in street lighting. There is mention of higher colour temperatures
improving human night vision. There is also an interesting LED colour chart,
which shows one at 4500K called "incandescent". A couple of years back, I
was in Disney when they put on a show in front of the Magic Castle. There
was a stage spot set up on the top of a pole, projecting a brilliant white
beam of considerable strength. I didn't take much notice of it, until it
suddenly changed colour. During the show, it produced a whole range of
colours, but I couldn't see that the enclosure was anything like big enough
to accommodate a coloured gel wheel. I remember wondering at the time, if
this had been implemented using very high power RGB LEDs. I suppose that it
is also possible that it could have been a plasma lamp with dichroic mirrors
and LCD panels. Are any LEDs actually powerful enough to make stage lighting
from ? Can they be mounted in any way that allows light collection and
direction through beam forming optics ?

Arfa


LED's are being used for stage lighting, but not in the high power
movers or Ellipsoid's (YET). WHat you probably saw was a martin MAC2000
or such at disney. They have full color mixing onboard VIA DMX

http://www.martin.com/product/produc...MAC2000Profile

THere are some interesting new LED stage lighting also:

http://www.martin.com/productsubgrou...=ledluminaires
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/LED_20Stage_20Lights
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/4/7/1

BOB





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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Not so. They ARE wrong. The relative densities of the individual film
layers will be quite innacurate when exposed with the wrong light.

You conveniently snipped the part about video.

Substitute CCD/CMOS sensor levels for cameras balanced to the wrong color
temperature then. The problem is usually more acute for film however.

But you do admit problems with film color are not just imagined then?

The monitor you're reading this on is unlikely to match
*exactly* another one in colour temperature but will look ok to the
individual. The eye compensates, as I said, as it must do given that
daylight changes. Unless it has a reference to match to.

Which is everything else within your field of view. Only if *everything*
changes will the *brain* correctly compensate.

Not so - do you change the colour temperature of your TV or monitor
according to the ambient light?

For critical work, yes. There are even devices to do it for you
automatically. Why do you think they exist?

So a couple of minutes readjustment is abhorent to you?
Doesn't bother me too much.

Fine - but you're in a minority if you like cold domestic lighting.

Never said otherwise.

Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of
tungsten for domestic lighting?

No, as I already stated it was simply conditioning from fires, candles,
oil lamps and tungsten filament globes.

Fluorescent lights have been around for a long, long time. And early ones
were all cold compared to tungsten. People could easily have got used to
them for domestic light, but very few chose to.

They chose not to, exactly what I said.

MrT.

Bob Urz wrote:



Arfa Daily wrote:


Here's a really interesting site

http://www.oksolar.com/led/led_color_chart.htm

Follow the various page links to the chromaticity chart, and " More
information on LEDs" at the bottom. I didn't realise that they were
already in use in street lighting. There is mention of higher colour
temperatures improving human night vision. There is also an
interesting LED colour chart, which shows one at 4500K called
"incandescent". A couple of years back, I was in Disney when they put
on a show in front of the Magic Castle. There was a stage spot set up
on the top of a pole, projecting a brilliant white beam of
considerable strength. I didn't take much notice of it, until it
suddenly changed colour. During the show, it produced a whole range of
colours, but I couldn't see that the enclosure was anything like big
enough to accommodate a coloured gel wheel. I remember wondering at
the time, if this had been implemented using very high power RGB LEDs.
I suppose that it is also possible that it could have been a plasma
lamp with dichroic mirrors and LCD panels. Are any LEDs actually
powerful enough to make stage lighting from ? Can they be mounted in
any way that allows light collection and direction through beam
forming optics ?

Arfa

LED's are being used for stage lighting, but not in the high power
movers or Ellipsoid's (YET). WHat you probably saw was a martin MAC2000
or such at disney. They have full color mixing onboard VIA DMX

http://www.martin.com/product/produc...MAC2000Profile

THere are some interesting new LED stage lighting also:

http://www.martin.com/productsubgrou...=ledluminaires
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/LED_20Stage_20Lights
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/4/7/1

BOB

http://ct.pbinews.com/rd/cts?d=244-1...679887-0-0-0-1

http://livedesignonline.com/concerts...london_071107/

http://livedesignonline.com/gear/pro...creens_071107/

BOB

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"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Bob Urz wrote:



Arfa Daily wrote:


Here's a really interesting site

http://www.oksolar.com/led/led_color_chart.htm

Follow the various page links to the chromaticity chart, and " More
information on LEDs" at the bottom. I didn't realise that they were
already in use in street lighting. There is mention of higher colour
temperatures improving human night vision. There is also an interesting
LED colour chart, which shows one at 4500K called "incandescent". A
couple of years back, I was in Disney when they put on a show in front
of the Magic Castle. There was a stage spot set up on the top of a pole,
projecting a brilliant white beam of considerable strength. I didn't
take much notice of it, until it suddenly changed colour. During the
show, it produced a whole range of colours, but I couldn't see that the
enclosure was anything like big enough to accommodate a coloured gel
wheel. I remember wondering at the time, if this had been implemented
using very high power RGB LEDs. I suppose that it is also possible that
it could have been a plasma lamp with dichroic mirrors and LCD panels.
Are any LEDs actually powerful enough to make stage lighting from ? Can
they be mounted in any way that allows light collection and direction
through beam forming optics ?

Arfa

LED's are being used for stage lighting, but not in the high power movers
or Ellipsoid's (YET). WHat you probably saw was a martin MAC2000
or such at disney. They have full color mixing onboard VIA DMX


It didn't look quite like that and didn't have remote move capabilities, but
was remotely controlled in as much as the colour changing and intensity, so
I guess it was on a DMX bus. It was on the top of a pole, so clearly made to
work in outdoor conditions, and small and squat, which was made me think
that it used technology that I hadn't seen in that application before. I
also seem to recall that I was particularly struck by the range and
intensity of the colours it produced. Guess I'll never know for sure. The
links contained some interesting stuff on high power LED lighting. Seems to
me that the LEDs themselves have pretty much evolved to the point of
usefulness, and that it now needs more developments in the optical part of
the equation, and colour temperature rendition. BTW, did you get the partial
schematic for the 'HT70 that I sent you, as requested in your post of a few
days ago ?

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:


"Lostgallifreyan" wrote in message
...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:

I really
think that I'm going to have to buy one, and attack it with the
Dremmel

Set to with zeal, my son. If I had a dremel, I would. Probably.

Did find this though:
http://www.claremicronix.com/datashe...ata%20Sheet%20
Rev05 3107.pdf
Again, clickable: http://tinyurl.com/2kf3jv

That's interesting because it shows 90% efficiency as I hoped might
be had, from a circuit with no large smoothing capacitor. It's just
one tiny IC driving a MOSFET and using an inductor. I don't know how
big that inductor is, but not very, I imagine. Maybe similar to the
one on the module on the eBay page I linked to earlier. A series
chain of three or four LED's might well be driven directly from the
mains, and all fitted inside one of those small lamp capsules. Heat
dispersal might be tight, but
doable, especially in those lamps with the fine louvre shells to
allow convection to get in amongst the doings.

Well, that's not strictly true. The issue of where the input voltage
comes from, is carefully avoided in the data sheet. It only shows that
the chip can operate from a DC input range of 8 to 450v. To get the DC
input from the mains, would still require a bridge and smoothing cap.
However, looks like a useful chip, and a good candidate for the back
end processing. It claims that it can drive "hundreds" of LEDs in
series / parallel strings. Still reserving judgement at this time ...

Arfa




Hmm. Last post after a long day, that was. Should have seen that it
needed DC.

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Bob Urz wrote:



Arfa Daily wrote:


Here's a really interesting site

http://www.oksolar.com/led/led_color_chart.htm

Follow the various page links to the chromaticity chart, and " More
information on LEDs" at the bottom. I didn't realise that they were
already in use in street lighting. There is mention of higher colour
temperatures improving human night vision. There is also an interesting
LED colour chart, which shows one at 4500K called "incandescent". A
couple of years back, I was in Disney when they put on a show in front
of the Magic Castle. There was a stage spot set up on the top of a pole,
projecting a brilliant white beam of considerable strength. I didn't
take much notice of it, until it suddenly changed colour. During the
show, it produced a whole range of colours, but I couldn't see that the
enclosure was anything like big enough to accommodate a coloured gel
wheel. I remember wondering at the time, if this had been implemented
using very high power RGB LEDs. I suppose that it is also possible that
it could have been a plasma lamp with dichroic mirrors and LCD panels.
Are any LEDs actually powerful enough to make stage lighting from ? Can
they be mounted in any way that allows light collection and direction
through beam forming optics ?

Arfa


LED's are being used for stage lighting, but not in the high power movers
or Ellipsoid's (YET). WHat you probably saw was a martin MAC2000
or such at disney. They have full color mixing onboard VIA DMX



It didn't look quite like that and didn't have remote move capabilities, but
was remotely controlled in as much as the colour changing and intensity, so
I guess it was on a DMX bus. It was on the top of a pole, so clearly made to
work in outdoor conditions, and small and squat, which was made me think
that it used technology that I hadn't seen in that application before. I
also seem to recall that I was particularly struck by the range and
intensity of the colours it produced. Guess I'll never know for sure. The
links contained some interesting stuff on high power LED lighting. Seems to
me that the LEDs themselves have pretty much evolved to the point of
usefulness, and that it now needs more developments in the optical part of
the equation, and colour temperature rendition. BTW, did you get the partial
schematic for the 'HT70 that I sent you, as requested in your post of a few
days ago ?

Arfa


No, i did not get it. could you resend it?
Email has been funky lateley......

Bob

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"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Arfa Daily wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Bob Urz wrote:



Arfa Daily wrote:


Here's a really interesting site

http://www.oksolar.com/led/led_color_chart.htm

Follow the various page links to the chromaticity chart, and " More
information on LEDs" at the bottom. I didn't realise that they were
already in use in street lighting. There is mention of higher colour
temperatures improving human night vision. There is also an interesting
LED colour chart, which shows one at 4500K called "incandescent". A
couple of years back, I was in Disney when they put on a show in front
of the Magic Castle. There was a stage spot set up on the top of a
pole, projecting a brilliant white beam of considerable strength. I
didn't take much notice of it, until it suddenly changed colour. During
the show, it produced a whole range of colours, but I couldn't see that
the enclosure was anything like big enough to accommodate a coloured
gel wheel. I remember wondering at the time, if this had been
implemented using very high power RGB LEDs. I suppose that it is also
possible that it could have been a plasma lamp with dichroic mirrors
and LCD panels. Are any LEDs actually powerful enough to make stage
lighting from ? Can they be mounted in any way that allows light
collection and direction through beam forming optics ?

Arfa


LED's are being used for stage lighting, but not in the high power
movers or Ellipsoid's (YET). WHat you probably saw was a martin MAC2000
or such at disney. They have full color mixing onboard VIA DMX



It didn't look quite like that and didn't have remote move capabilities,
but was remotely controlled in as much as the colour changing and
intensity, so I guess it was on a DMX bus. It was on the top of a pole,
so clearly made to work in outdoor conditions, and small and squat, which
was made me think that it used technology that I hadn't seen in that
application before. I also seem to recall that I was particularly struck
by the range and intensity of the colours it produced. Guess I'll never
know for sure. The links contained some interesting stuff on high power
LED lighting. Seems to me that the LEDs themselves have pretty much
evolved to the point of usefulness, and that it now needs more
developments in the optical part of the equation, and colour temperature
rendition. BTW, did you get the partial schematic for the 'HT70 that I
sent you, as requested in your post of a few days ago ?

Arfa


No, i did not get it. could you resend it?
Email has been funky lateley......

Bob


OK, it's resent to the same address that you used to post this, but from a
different one of my addresses. Attachment is a 434k PDF, which shouldn't be
a problem. Let me know that you get it ok. If any issues, just contact me
direct on the arfa daily address that I use to post here.

Arfa

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Fluorescent lights have been around for a long, long time. And early
ones
were all cold compared to tungsten. People could easily have got used
to
them for domestic light, but very few chose to.

They chose not to, exactly what I said.

I think everyone is saying the same thing, yet there seems to be
disagreement. I'd only add to this that when people predominantly
"choose to" behave in a particular way, rather than in some other way,
there's probably a good reason why.

For example, if people "choose to" dislike food that smells like decay,
there is probably a good reason why. Yes, even though there may be some
individuals who actually like decaying food.

There are other examples. Movies use deep bass sounds to put the
audience on edge. It conveys a sense of foreboding and alarm in people.
Again, one might suspect that if the reaction is close to universal,
there's probably a good reason why. Not merely, "They choose to react
this way. They could just as easily react a different way."

Others and I have speculated the "why" people might prefer "warmer"
lighting. There's nothing wrong with speculation. That's what leads to
stating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it, and possibly ending up
with a physical law.

Bert

"Albert Manfredi" wrote in
:

Others and I have speculated the "why" people might prefer "warmer"
lighting. There's nothing wrong with speculation. That's what leads to
stating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it, and possibly ending up
with a physical law.


It's a physical law that shorter wavelengths render finer detail. To read
or do fine work or hobby activity we need that. People read when relaxing,
and they might use low colour temperatures while doing it, but need a lot
of that light to get enough shortwave light to comfortably avoid eyestrain.

If they use a higher colour temperature they will find the same comfort as
with lower colour temperatures, and at lesser expense.

That's founded in laws of physics, anatomy, and economy. You can stick to
the stated preferences for low colour temperatures to try to assert that
there might be a law that somehow contrdicts all these, but such effort
doesn't seem very likely to succeed.

This thread seems to have been hijacked. I gave up after about an hour and skipped to the end. Did anyone come up with an answer to the original question?

I have had the same thing with one light after replacing all my filament bulbs.

My brother found something similar which turned out to be caused by his remote control door openers (I think). Presumably these bulbs can be 'triggered' by any suitable stray radiation (like neons under power lines). Tho the regularity is a puzzle - maybe the leakage effect is the answer.

"Albert Manfredi" wrote in message
...
I think everyone is saying the same thing, yet there seems to be
disagreement. I'd only add to this that when people predominantly
"choose to" behave in a particular way, rather than in some other way,
there's probably a good reason why.

Sure, what that reason is, and even how rational it is, may be open to
debate.
Mostly people choose what is readily available at an affordable price. The
manufacturers/marketing people have as much to do with this as any absolute
superiority.
And market timing plays a big part in whether something becomes widely
established, and how superior something else must be to supercede it.

For example, if people "choose to" dislike food that smells like decay,
there is probably a good reason why. Yes, even though there may be some
individuals who actually like decaying food.

Yes, blue vein cheese is quite popular. Even well aged meats.

There are other examples. Movies use deep bass sounds to put the
audience on edge. It conveys a sense of foreboding and alarm in people.
Again, one might suspect that if the reaction is close to universal,

Or not, discotecques use deep pounding bass to give their customers a dance
beat. Doesn't seem to drive them away

there's probably a good reason why. Not merely, "They choose to react
this way. They could just as easily react a different way."

Exactly.

Others and I have speculated the "why" people might prefer "warmer"
lighting. There's nothing wrong with speculation. That's what leads to
stating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it, and possibly ending up
with a physical law.

Or more likely just ending up with another example of the irrational
behaviour patterns of humans.

MrT.

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Arfa Daily wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Bob Urz wrote:



Arfa Daily wrote:



Here's a really interesting site

http://www.oksolar.com/led/led_color_chart.htm

Follow the various page links to the chromaticity chart, and " More
information on LEDs" at the bottom. I didn't realise that they were
already in use in street lighting. There is mention of higher colour
temperatures improving human night vision. There is also an interesting
LED colour chart, which shows one at 4500K called "incandescent". A
couple of years back, I was in Disney when they put on a show in front
of the Magic Castle. There was a stage spot set up on the top of a
pole, projecting a brilliant white beam of considerable strength. I
didn't take much notice of it, until it suddenly changed colour. During
the show, it produced a whole range of colours, but I couldn't see that
the enclosure was anything like big enough to accommodate a coloured
gel wheel. I remember wondering at the time, if this had been
implemented using very high power RGB LEDs. I suppose that it is also
possible that it could have been a plasma lamp with dichroic mirrors
and LCD panels. Are any LEDs actually powerful enough to make stage
lighting from ? Can they be mounted in any way that allows light
collection and direction through beam forming optics ?

Arfa


LED's are being used for stage lighting, but not in the high power
movers or Ellipsoid's (YET). WHat you probably saw was a martin MAC2000
or such at disney. They have full color mixing onboard VIA DMX



It didn't look quite like that and didn't have remote move capabilities,
but was remotely controlled in as much as the colour changing and
intensity, so I guess it was on a DMX bus. It was on the top of a pole,
so clearly made to work in outdoor conditions, and small and squat, which
was made me think that it used technology that I hadn't seen in that
application before. I also seem to recall that I was particularly struck
by the range and intensity of the colours it produced. Guess I'll never
know for sure. The links contained some interesting stuff on high power
LED lighting. Seems to me that the LEDs themselves have pretty much
evolved to the point of usefulness, and that it now needs more
developments in the optical part of the equation, and colour temperature
rendition. BTW, did you get the partial schematic for the 'HT70 that I
sent you, as requested in your post of a few days ago ?

Arfa



No, i did not get it. could you resend it?
Email has been funky lateley......

Bob



OK, it's resent to the same address that you used to post this, but from a
different one of my addresses. Attachment is a 434k PDF, which shouldn't be
a problem. Let me know that you get it ok. If any issues, just contact me
direct on the arfa daily address that I use to post here.

Arfa


Got this one. thanks.

Bob

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On Jul 15, 4:21 am, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

Mostly people choose what is readily available at an affordable price.

Universal dislike for something counts as more than just "what is
readily available at an affordable price." Sorry.

Or not, discotecques use deep pounding bass to give their customers a dance
beat. Doesn't seem to drive them away

Yes, but there's a big difference between *prolonged* bass and
periodic bass, perhaps at approximately 1 Hz or so. Which is
reminiscent of a heartbeat, therefore natural and presumably pleasing.

Or more likely just ending up with another example of the irrational
behaviour patterns of humans.

I don't think it's irrational to expect humans to be put off by
sources of articial light whose color temp is not what they evolved
with. Defense mechanisms typically work that way, matter of fact.

Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history
(probably not, actually).

Bert

Albert Manfredi wrote in
oups.com:

Universal dislike for something counts as more than just "what is
readily available at an affordable price." Sorry.


Damnit, will you quit that, you're annoying! I let it pass when you
dismissed my argument, because it wasn't that important, you were 'only'
claiming to speak for a huge populace on matters of preference, as if you
had such a mighty insight into so many. Now, you claim 'universal dislike'!
You're not content to settle for mere hubris, you need omniscience.

Just stick to some science and let the preferences take care of themselves.

Hmm, sorry, the dismissal came from someone else, so I shouldn't be
berating you for that. Even so, it's not appropriate to make claims for
such universality. If you don't like it, say so, but don't try to claim for
a universe! Most of it has ideas of its own.

"Albert Manfredi" wrote in message
oups.com...
Mostly people choose what is readily available at an affordable price.

Universal dislike for something counts as more than just "what is
readily available at an affordable price." Sorry.

IF we were talking *universal* dislike then I might agree.

Or more likely just ending up with another example of the irrational
behaviour patterns of humans.

I don't think it's irrational to expect humans to be put off by
sources of articial light whose color temp is not what they evolved
with.

No *proof* though that artificial light MUST be different from natural
light.
Only the preferences of many accustomed to it being so.

Defense mechanisms typically work that way, matter of fact.

I'm interested to know what's the "defence mechanism" that benefits from low
color temperatures?

Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history
(probably not, actually).

A hell of a long way from it actually.

MrT.

Albert Manfredi wrote:

Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history
(probably not, actually).


It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Albert Manfredi wrote:
Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history
(probably not, actually).


It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running.

Yes, he must be a "newby" I think. :-)

MrT.

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Albert Manfredi wrote:
Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history
(probably not, actually).


It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running.

Yes, he must be a "newby" I think. :-)

MrT.


Just wait till he stumbles into a thread like that big one on
news.sci.electronics.design . There were still over 6,000 messages on
the server from the 10,000 or more. It took my news reader software
three hours to mark that thread as read, because of all the cross
posts. I was about ready to kill the program when it finally finished.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in
u:

Defense mechanisms typically work that way, matter of fact.

I'm interested to know what's the "defence mechanism" that benefits
from low color temperatures?


I doubt there is one. The reason prolonged bass might be unsettling is that
any animal is wary of a conspicuous expenditure of energy, and that really
IS about as close to a 'universal' 'preference' as we can get. Any agency
that can conspicously expend energy is potentially a serious risk, either
because it's a source of elemental power, or because it's aware of its
power and feels no need to hide it from the world around it.

The animals with a defensive relation to colour temperature are likely to
be those that fear fire, or are wary of us because we have learned to use
fire. That won't likely be evolution (might need an actual genetic record
to establish that), but it is conditioning, adaptation.

I don't think we have any imperative that makes us need low colour
temperatures. We do have an imperative for warmth, and while that comes
from flame it is possible to connect the two things, but as soon as we get
warmth some other way, all bets are off.

It's interesting to look at how other animals relate to tungsten lighting.
(Crude generalisation alert!) Cats and dogs like it, rats and snakes do
not. That surely shows that it really doesn't matter half as much as how
they react to us.

Preference for higher colour temperatures might be likely based on
efficient shortwave light making things easily visible. Preference for low
colour temperatures is mostly symbolic. The purely functional
basis of the preference for low colour temperatures is itself symbolic,
many people find 'functional' to be almost a synonym for 'bleak' or
'dreary'. Possibly because of an aversion to work (which I can understand),
or more likely because having to ration energy usage implies discomfort.
There's no reason it should do so though, as in this case we're talking
about limiting energy expenditure by choice. That's the whole point of
these new kinds of lamp. Being able to choose leaves us open to new kinds
of conditioning.

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Albert Manfredi wrote:
Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history
(probably not, actually).


It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running.

Yes, he must be a "newby" I think. :-)

MrT.


Maybe even new enough that his computer will melt down when he hits a
real 10,000 post flamefest. ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida