I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote in message
ups.com...
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair


It may not be a switch problem but more seriously an animal , usually
squirrel or mouse or rat has chewed the insulation along the wires going to
the switch, now with charred insulation, so passing a bit of current - so
get the wiring leakage/visually checked. Especially if you've had any
unexplained fuses blowing or history of animal noises in loft or floor
spaces.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.

Bruce

On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:





I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.


Thanks.

Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).

The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

On 25 Jun, 15:20, "N Cook" wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote in message

ups.com...
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

It may not be a switch problem but more seriously an animal , usually
squirrel or mouse or rat has chewed the insulation along the wires going to
the switch, now with charred insulation, so passing a bit of current - so
get the wiring leakage/visually checked. Especially if you've had any
unexplained fuses blowing or history of animal noises in loft or floor
spaces.


Thanks for the advice.

We had some fuse problems many years ago but not on the lighting
circuits. The problem was traced (by a proper electrician) to the
ancient (bakelite) fuse box. It was replaced with a modern fuse box.
The wiring was tested (but not completely inspected) at the time.
Since then, we have not had any fuse problems. That was about 10
years ago.

I am not aware of any animal problems in the loft but, of course, that
does not mean that there have not been any. Access to the loft is
difficult since it is very small but not quite impossible. I will
squeeze myself in and have a look.

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:





I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.


Thanks.

Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).

The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.

Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.

Ken

On 25 Jun, 15:39, Ken Weitzel wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.

Thanks.

Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).

The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.

Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.


A good question but no.

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:39, Ken Weitzel wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.
Thanks.
Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).
The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.
Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.


A good question but no.

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).


Sounds like leakage to me, there may be a measurable voltage floating on
the neutral. I has a similar problem with fluorescent emergency lights
last year. If you are in the UK it might be an earthing fault.

Ron(UK)

On 25 Jun, 15:56, "Ron(UK)" wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:39, Ken Weitzel wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.
Thanks.
Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).
The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.
Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.

A good question but no.

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).

Sounds like leakage to me, there may be a measurable voltage floating on
the neutral. I has a similar problem with fluorescent emergency lights
last year. If you are in the UK it might be an earthing fault.


I am in the UK.

How does an earthing fault affect the lighting circuit? I thought it
was just two wire. The earthing for the house in general was checked
a couple of years ago when we changed the boiler. The gas engineer
said that a change was required but I forget exactly what that was.
The RCCB in the new fuse box is not tripping but does it apply to the
lighting circuits?

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Hi, this isn;t that uncommon a problem with low energy bulbs. Its
probable that there is a voltage induced into the 'dead' circuit by
cables running in close proximity to one another. Typically this
occurs on long cable runs for hall/landing circuits.
The way I'd bottom it is to use a DVM across the lamp socket & see
what voltage is present. You shouldn't be able to draw any current (to
speak of) from a capacitive or inductive coupling.
What happens is that theres enough voltage for the tube to strike but
no capacity to draw current, so it goes out until the voltage builds
up again.
You can buy suppression capacitors to overcome this (Note they are
special devices - don't try to bodge it!) but sometimes just swapping
with another LE bulb will do the trick.
If the problem isn't as described, you'd better get someone in to
check the wiring for contacts or earth problems.
Dale.

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:04:04 -0700, Seán O'Leathlóbhair
wrote:

On 25 Jun, 15:56, "Ron(UK)" wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:39, Ken Weitzel wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.
Thanks.
Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).
The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.
Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.

A good question but no.

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).

Sounds like leakage to me, there may be a measurable voltage floating on
the neutral. I has a similar problem with fluorescent emergency lights
last year. If you are in the UK it might be an earthing fault.


I am in the UK.

How does an earthing fault affect the lighting circuit? I thought it
was just two wire. The earthing for the house in general was checked
a couple of years ago when we changed the boiler. The gas engineer
said that a change was required but I forget exactly what that was.
The RCCB in the new fuse box is not tripping but does it apply to the
lighting circuits?

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.


I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair


On a cold wet miserable winter day in the early 70's. I was
troubleshooting a newish car, that wouldn't start, that had just been
serviced by a car dealership. a few days before. To cut a long story
short, they lubricated the Point Breaker mechanism with a clear Grease
that they probably used for years with no problems ! With 2 to 6 Amps
flowing, the contact mechanism probably cooked off any wet or
conductive grease. With the newer Hybrid Transistor switched points the
DAMP grease appeared as a Dead Short to the few milliamps required to
actuate the Transistor.

I would suspect the switches (All three) are lubricated with a grease
that is conductive enough read (dirty enough)to cause the problems
indicated !

The quick and dirty, to clear the excess grease is to replace the lamp
in question with a 60 - 100 watt bulb and switch On and Off a few
times. in the Off position any conductive grease will be burned away.

Any fire Hazard, Not likely, after all these switches were manufactured
and sold for years lubricated just like this, besides we are talking
about a drop or two grease total ! If you are worried, replace the
switches.

If this doesn't clear the problem than you may have exessive
capacitative coupling between the various conductors due to the
three-way switching, under a very light load !

Yukio YANO

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds.

In order to do that it must be getting power from somewhere. You must have a
fault in the switch or related wiring.

Graham

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

That would appear to be the case.

Graham

Scalp wrote:

Hi, this isn;t that uncommon a problem with low energy bulbs. Its
probable that there is a voltage induced into the 'dead' circuit by
cables running in close proximity to one another. Typically this
occurs on long cable runs for hall/landing circuits.

How is this voltage induced ? Are you suggesting electromagnetic coupling ? That
sounds astonishingly unlikely.

Graham

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).


Sounds like leakage to me, there may be a measurable voltage floating on
the neutral. I has a similar problem with fluorescent emergency lights
last year. If you are in the UK it might be an earthing fault.


I am in the UK.

How does an earthing fault affect the lighting circuit? I thought it
was just two wire. The earthing for the house in general was checked
a couple of years ago when we changed the boiler. The gas engineer
said that a change was required but I forget exactly what that was.
The RCCB in the new fuse box is not tripping but does it apply to the
lighting circuits?


If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be
induced by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker. It could be a faulty switch
leaking across the contacts.

You don't live beneath an electricity pylon do you? It might also be
the rays from guvmint mind control experiments entering your house.

Ron(UK)

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:45:29 -0700, Seán O'Leathlóbhair
wrote:

On 25 Jun, 15:39, Ken Weitzel wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.

Thanks.

Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).

The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.

Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.


A good question but no.

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).

Your switches are wired wrong (they are switching the neutral (or
cold) side of the line, not the hot side. As well, you seem to have a
leakage problem in the circuit as well. This leakage could be a switch
or some other device or part.

First step is to make 100% sure the switches are in the hot side of
the circuit. That will likely solve your problem immediately. I'd
guess there is a chance much of your house is not wired correctly from
your description...

Not sure what building codes/wriing codes you have in the UK, but in
the US this circuit would not have passed a building inspector.

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be
induced by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker.

Ron, when the switch is off, there is no circuit. The neutral potential
literally doesn't matter.

Graham

PeterD wrote:

Your switches are wired wrong (they are switching the neutral (or
cold) side of the line, not the hot side.

Makes no difference. When the switch is off, the circuit is broken.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be
induced by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker.

Ron, when the switch is off, there is no circuit. The neutral potential
literally doesn't matter.

Graham

Capacitive leakage from the HOT wire to the switch
wire? That could trickle charge and cause an
occasional flicker.
Random spikes would leak through much easier, and
cause random flicker.
Try as cure a small capacitor (100NF)across the
lamp terminals, just as long as the cap is much
bigger than the parasite one.

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

So many replies that it is hard to know which one to reply to so I
will reply here.

A curious feature that I forgot to mention is the regularlity of the
flashes: every 2 seconds with no variation that I can detect with a
stop watch. This is why I thought of a capacitor charging up until it
reaches a critical voltage. But I was thinking of DC. AC is not going
to charge up a capacitor over 2 seconds. What is inside these bulbs? A
rectifier? A capacitor?

I will do some checking at the weekend. Climb into the loft space for
a look. Get the multimeter out. Trying other low energy bulbs. Try the
higher rated bulb. Etc.

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Capacitive leakage from the HOT wire to the switch
wire?

So why doesn't this happen all the time ? Answer, the capacitance is very low,
as is the frequency.

Graham

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

What is inside these bulbs? A
rectifier? A capacitor?

Lots of stuff.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Capacitive leakage from the HOT wire to the switch
wire?

So why doesn't this happen all the time ? Answer, the capacitance is very low,
as is the frequency.

Graham

A leak cap has very high impedance, and via
the input rectifier can charge the input cap(slowly).
Then when a threshold is passed, the circuit
produces a flash.
And it only happens, if the input capacity of the
rectifier circuit is low compared to the leak cap.

Chris Jones wrote:
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

This has come up before in aus.electronics though I don't recall if there
was a definite cure for it.

Thanks. If there is no danger, I don't need a cure. The flash is not
irritating. The CO detector nearby flashes more brightly. I am just
worried that it is telling me that something nasty is wrong with my
wiring.

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

Hi!

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds.

Do you have one of those switches that glows when you turn it off?

I have one attached to set a of conventional fluorescent fixtures (one four
tube and one two tube). When the switch is "off" it still passes a tiny
amount of current and this makes for a faint flashing in the two tube
fixture. As far as I can tell this is perfectly safe...it has never caused
any problems for the lamp or myself.

I do, however, have to turn the power off when changing the lamps in the two
tube fixture. Otherwise there is the possibility of getting a small shock.

William

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:03:01 -0700, Seán O'Leathlóbhair
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

There was a similar thread at aus.electronics earlier this year.

CFL "pulses" when off!
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.e...04b7d5a?hl=en&

I don't know if anything was resolved, but the distributor of a
certain CFL brand wrote:

"We have found after much research that certain homes that are wired
in a way where they are switching the neutral that this may occur with
these lamps."

One contributor theorised that the switch wire may act as a
capacitance. This would allow the main filter capacitor to gradually
charge up via the bridge rectifier to the point where the circuit may
"kick", after which the flash would discharge the capacitor and the
cycle would start again.

This person experimented with various series caps and resistors:
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.e...5398c8c?hl=en&

Here is an interesting site that shows what is inside these lamps:
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Hi!

I have a few questions:

What is going on?

See my other reply. Do you have a light switch that glows when you turn it
off? This will place a small amount of current flow across the lamp, which
may make it flicker.

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

It may result in a slight amount of wear on the bulb, but I doubt the change
in lifetime would ever be noticed.

What is inside these bulbs? A rectifier? A capacitor?

In many cases, these bulbs contain a small switchmode power supply. Such a
power supply will have a transistor, some type of controller, a small
transformer and some support components (of which a capacitor would probably
be included). Others use a much simpler transformer design.

William

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Capacitive leakage from the HOT wire to the switch
wire?

So why doesn't this happen all the time ? Answer, the capacitance is very low,
as is the frequency.

A leak cap has very high impedance, and via
the input rectifier can charge the input cap(slowly).
Then when a threshold is passed, the circuit
produces a flash.
And it only happens, if the input capacity of the
rectifier circuit is low compared to the leak cap.

It flashes every 2 seconds or so.

Clearly a very low leakage current won't do that.

Graham

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:28:59 GMT, Eeyore
put finger to keyboard and
composed:



Sjouke Burry wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Capacitive leakage from the HOT wire to the switch
wire?

So why doesn't this happen all the time ? Answer, the capacitance is very low,
as is the frequency.

A leak cap has very high impedance, and via
the input rectifier can charge the input cap(slowly).
Then when a threshold is passed, the circuit
produces a flash.
And it only happens, if the input capacity of the
rectifier circuit is low compared to the leak cap.

It flashes every 2 seconds or so.

Clearly a very low leakage current won't do that.

Graham

This fellow experimented with a ~1mA leakage current at 240VAC:
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.e...5398c8c?hl=en&

"Changed to 270 kohms and now have a 13W CFL flashing at exactly 1
Hz".

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

This has come up before in aus.electronics though I don't recall if there
was a definite cure for it.

Chris

Eeyore wrote:

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be
induced by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker.

Ron, when the switch is off, there is no circuit. The neutral potential
literally doesn't matter.

Graham


It`s a two way switch, there`s plenty of potential for leakage paths.
You can easily get 100v on the neutral if it`s floating above earth
potential.

Ron(UK)

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
news
Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).


Sounds like leakage to me, there may be a measurable voltage floating on
the neutral. I has a similar problem with fluorescent emergency lights
last year. If you are in the UK it might be an earthing fault.


I am in the UK.

How does an earthing fault affect the lighting circuit? I thought it
was just two wire. The earthing for the house in general was checked
a couple of years ago when we changed the boiler. The gas engineer
said that a change was required but I forget exactly what that was.
The RCCB in the new fuse box is not tripping but does it apply to the
lighting circuits?


If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be induced
by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker. It could be a faulty switch
leaking across the contacts.

You don't live beneath an electricity pylon do you? It might also be the
rays from guvmint mind control experiments entering your house.

Ron(UK)

Ron - just a quick aside. It was you that I was talking to a few weeks back
about the old ILP audio modules, wasn't it ? Well, thought you might be
interested to know that the next issue of Elektor ( that'll be the September
one as it is currently the July / August Summer Circuits double issue ) is
doing a review and lab tests of a number of available pre-built audio
modules.

Arfa

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote:

If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be
induced by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker.

Ron, when the switch is off, there is no circuit. The neutral potential
literally doesn't matter.


It`s a two way switch, there`s plenty of potential for leakage paths.
You can easily get 100v on the neutral if it`s floating above earth
potential.

The OP said they weren't 2 way circuits though.

Graham

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Eeyore put finger to keyboard and composed:
Sjouke Burry wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Sjouke Burry wrote:

Capacitive leakage from the HOT wire to the switch
wire?

So why doesn't this happen all the time ? Answer, the capacitance is very low,
as is the frequency.

A leak cap has very high impedance, and via
the input rectifier can charge the input cap(slowly).
Then when a threshold is passed, the circuit
produces a flash.
And it only happens, if the input capacity of the
rectifier circuit is low compared to the leak cap.

It flashes every 2 seconds or so.

Clearly a very low leakage current won't do that.


This fellow experimented with a ~1mA leakage current at 240VAC:
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.e...5398c8c?hl=en&

"Changed to 270 kohms and now have a 13W CFL flashing at exactly 1
Hz".

I make that ~ 11nF !

You won't get that easily.

Graham

=?iso-8859-1?B?U2XhbiBPJ0xlYXRobPNiaGFpcg==?= writes:

On 25 Jun, 15:39, Ken Weitzel wrote:
Se=E1n O'Leathl=F3bhair wrote:
On 25 Jun, 15:21, BH wrote:
On Jun 25, 10:03 am, Se=E1n O'Leathl=F3bhair wrot=
e:

I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.
I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.
When it is switched on, it works as expected.
When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.
I have a few questions:
What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.
Is it safe?
Will it wear out the bulb very fast?
Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).
Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)
--
Se=E1n =D3 Leathl=F3bhair
Try the buld in another location. Give us moe information on the bulb.

Thanks.

Normally, I would immediately try to isolate the cause by moving
things around but, in this case, I dismissed the bulb as the problem
since I thought that if the switch was passing nothing when off (as it
should) then there was no way the bulb could do what it is doing. If
the bulb is at fault then it is not the only fault (or so I assumed at
any rate).

The brand of the bulb is Philips but I cannot tell you more until I
get home and look at it. I will post again later with fuller details
and the result of a test in another location.

Hi...

Can't help wondering - it's not possible that one of those
"switches" is a dimmer, is it?

Take care.


A good question but no.

It is a landing light. There are three switches, one at each end and
a third in the middle where a small corridor from the bathroom joins
the landing. All simple on off switches (well they must be changeover
switches but, from the user's point of view, they are just on off).

And none are lighted switches?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Ron(UK) wrote:

Eeyore wrote:


"Ron(UK)" wrote:

If the neutral wire isn't properly grounded enough voltage can be
induced by or leak from other 'live' circuits, maybe enough to cause the
fluorescent fittings to randomly flicker.


Ron, when the switch is off, there is no circuit. The neutral potential
literally doesn't matter.

Graham


It`s a two way switch, there`s plenty of potential for leakage paths.
You can easily get 100v on the neutral if it`s floating above earth
potential.

Ron(UK)
Hmm.
2 way, 3 way , 4 way and any number of ways you want! why would that
matter?, the neutral should not be part of the switching circuit.


--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

Eeyore writes:

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

That would appear to be the case.

This is at least partly true.

Low energy lamps including compact fluorescents and normal fluorescents
on electronic ballasts use a switching circuit to produce the high voltage for
the fluorescent lamp. The input is a bridge rectifier and filter capacitor.
Any source of AC even a small amount of leakage through a defective swtich,
a switch with a neon lamp night light feature (lighted when off), an
electronic timer, a motion sensor-controlled yard light, or
a dimmer that isn't fully off, may cause the voltage to build up
on the filter capacitor until the "startup circuit" kicks in. This usually
has some sort of threshold de
vice like a zener diode or diac that won't
pass current until the voltage across it exceeds a spec'd value. When
that happens, the lamp starts up and strikes but just for an instant since
there isn't enough current available on the input to maintain it.

I'm somewhat skeptical of the explanation with respect to inductive or
capacitive coupling (though possible under just the right - or wrong -
conditions) but it doesn't take that much leakage from some other fault
to do this.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
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Eeyore writes:

PeterD wrote:

Your switches are wired wrong (they are switching the neutral (or
cold) side of the line, not the hot side.

Makes no difference. When the switch is off, the circuit is broken.

He said there are 2 or 3 switches controlling this lamp. In that case,
there are a variety of ways that there could be capacitive and inductive
coupling. Very often, there is a "traveller" with 2 parallel wires in it
one of which is connected to the source and the other is connected to the
lamp when it is off.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
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=?iso-8859-1?B?U2XhbiBPJ0xlYXRobPNiaGFpcg==?= writes:

Se=E1n O'Leathl=F3bhair wrote:
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

So many replies that it is hard to know which one to reply to so I
will reply here.

A curious feature that I forgot to mention is the regularlity of the
flashes: every 2 seconds with no variation that I can detect with a
stop watch. This is why I thought of a capacitor charging up until it
reaches a critical voltage. But I was thinking of DC. AC is not going
to charge up a capacitor over 2 seconds. What is inside these bulbs? A
rectifier? A capacitor?

No, you're correct. See my (and other) replies. It is a capacitor
charging up - after a rectifier.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
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I will do some checking at the weekend. Climb into the loft space for
a look. Get the multimeter out. Trying other low energy bulbs. Try the
higher rated bulb. Etc.

"William R. Walsh" m writes:

Hi!

I have a few questions:

What is going on?

See my other reply. Do you have a light switch that glows when you turn it
off? This will place a small amount of current flow across the lamp, which
may make it flicker.

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

It may result in a slight amount of wear on the bulb, but I doubt the change
in lifetime would ever be noticed.

This I wouldn't be so sure of. Startup is hard on fluorescent lamps.

What is inside these bulbs? A rectifier? A capacitor?

In many cases, these bulbs contain a small switchmode power supply. Such a
power supply will have a transistor, some type of controller, a small
transformer and some support components (of which a capacitor would probably
be included). Others use a much simpler transformer design.

The transformer design will not experience this phenomenon.

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Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.