Phil isn't very helpful. Can anyone else explain where I went wrong?

"Mr.T"

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

Yes, mostly. Some hydro electricity,


** In Tasmania, it is 100% hydro.

Massive amounts of it too, compared to the small population.




....... Phil

"Albert Manfredi" wrote in message
...
Most folks? I would suspect infant mortality if the fluorescent has
anywhere close to as short a life as an incandescent.

And the equivalent of the "Black Death" is killing a lot of "infants" around
here then.

Mine have lasted for years and years in every case.

I can only dream of that. No problem with standard fluoro's though!

So far, compulsory is only in Australia. But I'd say that light bulbs
constitute a large load, especially in homes that use gas for their
furnace and kitchen. In such homes, only heavy appliances or hair dryers
require more than 100 watts or so, yet for light bulbs, that's common.
And there are many light bulbs.]

The most commonly used bulb here is 60W, and there are usually only a few
rooms on at any one time. Usually less than 200W in my house, but even
double that will be about one average computer, less than the fridge,
freezer, air conditioner, washing machine, microwave oven, large TV, even
the toaster or electric kettle, each by itself!

Some people do have a hundred QH downlights though, and they should just be
shot to protect the rest of us from their stupidity :-)

At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.

My hair drier uses FAR more than the lights, but it isn't on very long, so
it's rather a pointless comparison.
The ONLY figure that's important to global warming, is how many WHr's a
device *actually* consumes each year.

Hardly a trivial load.

Compared to what industry currently uses, it IS trivial. It's not that long
ago our state government spent hundred's of millions of dollars installing
power lines just to supply an Aluminium smelter. Any guess on how much power
THAT uses compared to the average household?

Makes a lot more sense to clamp down on that
load, than to get all compulsive about DTV set-top boxes, as the EU has
done.

Really? That is even more stupid.
Still politicians could never be accused of having intelligence!
As long as they don't ban computers any time soon :-)

MrT.

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
It would be crazy to eliminate halogens.

Why???
The QH downlights used in large multiples because of their narrow light
spread, are the very WORST offenders!
Each one draws as much as a standard globe (including the power wasted in
the transformer)

Ban them FIRST I say.

MrT.

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote

However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.

Wow, I 'm jealous. I've given up on them after using about 20 or 30 over the
last 10 years. None lasted any longer than a cheap incandescent, most lasted
less, a few even DOA.

Were any of them made by Philips or Osram ?

Graham

Karl Uppiano wrote:

Phil isn't very helpful. Can anyone else explain where I went wrong?

You asked a question.

Graham

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
It would be crazy to eliminate halogens.

Why???
The QH downlights used in large multiples because of their narrow light
spread, are the very WORST offenders!
Each one draws as much as a standard globe (including the power wasted in
the transformer)

Ban them FIRST I say.

They're not the only kind of halogen lamp.

GE and Philips are working on getting halogen efficiency up to the level of
CFLs.

Graham

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

...snip...


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on
vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. G

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
--


It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the
right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that
...
;-)

Arfa

Ahh, that so reminds me of the winning definition of "politically
correct."
"" Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up
a
turd by the clean end.""

So do take care as to what end of the vacuum you fill with. G


Later...

Ron Capik
--

Yes, very amusing, but now the pedantic devil sitting on your shoulder, is
definitely asserting himself ... !!

Arfa

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Wow, I 'm jealous. I've given up on them after using about 20 or 30 over
the
last 10 years. None lasted any longer than a cheap incandescent, most
lasted
less, a few even DOA.

Were any of them made by Philips or Osram ?

Yep, I still have a new DOA Phillips in the original packing. I just wish I
still had the receipt :-(

I have tried at least 3 different styles by Phillips, and at least one from
Osram, not to mention total crap like Mirabella and many others.
NONE of them lasted any better than an incandescent in the same position.
The price varied from approximately 6 times that of an IB, to over 30 times.
And to seal their fate, the apparent light output per watt is far lower than
the standard fluoro tubes I use, which also last ten times as long. The
extra cost of replacing fittings soon pays for itself compared to using CFL
crap IMO.

MrT.

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
** In Tasmania, it is 100% hydro.

Not 100%, they use power from Victoria for base load demand at certain
times. And that's from brown coal.

Massive amounts of it too, compared to the small population.

If they had amounts as massive as you suggest, Victoria would not have a
problem. They could simply put in another Bass Straight cable if necessary.
Instead we are building large numbers of wind generators.

MrT.

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
GE and Philips are working on getting halogen efficiency up to the level
of
CFLs.

Fine, we can re-consider them WHEN they have succeeded.

MrT.

"Mr.Turd"

** In Tasmania, it is 100% hydro.

Not 100%, they use power from Victoria for base load demand at certain
times.


** Tassie hydro sells power to Vic at times of their high demand -
****wit.

That is what hydro power is IDEAL for !!


Massive amounts of it too, compared to the small population.

If they had amounts as massive as you suggest, Victoria would not have a
problem.


** The only problem is conserving long term water resources.

Tassie's installed generator capacity per head of population is very high.




......... Phil

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
** In Tasmania, it is 100% hydro.

Not 100%, they use power from Victoria for base load demand at certain
times. And that's from brown coal.

Massive amounts of it too, compared to the small population.

If they had amounts as massive as you suggest, Victoria would not have a
problem. They could simply put in another Bass Straight cable if
necessary.
Instead we are building large numbers of wind generators.

MrT.


Never mind ... !!

Arfa

"Phil Allison Turd" wrote in message
...
** Tassie hydro sells power to Vic at times of their high demand -
****wit.

I never said they didn't ****wit.

That is what hydro power is IDEAL for !!

I never said it wasn't ****wit.

MrT.

"Karl Uppiano" wrote ...
Phil isn't very helpful. Can anyone else explain where I went wrong?

You didn't plonk the notorious troll and he tricked you
into annother useless exchange.

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message

Were any of them made by Philips or Osram ?

Yep, I still have a new DOA Phillips in the original packing. I just wish I
still had the receipt :-(

You seem to have exceptionally bad luck.


I have tried at least 3 different styles by Phillips, and at least one from
Osram, not to mention total crap like Mirabella and many others.
NONE of them lasted any better than an incandescent in the same position.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally strange that is ? A few years back
some brands were affected by the 'bad caps' issue. Maybe that affected your
judgement of them ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I for one, have never had a CFL fail to last at least years in practical use.

Graham

"Phil Allison" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger"

Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same.

** No-one said that.

Total red herring anyhow.

The variations in dimmable CFLs are pretty obvious in use. The effective
range of operation, and how they react to being run at low levels, can varie
quite a bit. We see both sample variations within a certain type of bulb,
and also brand and model variations.

Keeping a dimmable CFL running at low levels is a bit of black art, it
seems.

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different
wattages to be useful in a wide variety of applications.

** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard
to find.

Dimmable CFLs are available in the US from places like "Home Depot" - the
US's large chain of home improvment centers with over 400 superstores
nationally.

Dimmable CFLs are also available from a number of dealers on the web, and
regular local electrical supply stores that cater to electricians. Prices
there are in the range of $6-18 per bulb.

Really good dimmable CFLs in the 15-22 watt range are presently being
blasted out on US eBay for about $4 each.

True that disposal is more critical especially because
of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where
CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.

** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far
more often.

I am reflecting on my experience which is based on the use of several 100's
of bulbs in a church/school. For example, we have one room with 48 CFLs, and
another with 64. Many other rooms have 6-12 bulbs each.

The room with 64 bulbs has been in service for about 3 years and gets pretty
heavy use by household standards. Its a basement room with zero windows, so
it has to be lit every time it is used. The lights are often left on until
the end of work day even when it is vacant.

The 64 32 watt bulbs in that room are used in pairs in a fully-enclosed ca.
1950 ceiling fixture that has has a maximum rating of 150 watts. They run a
little hot but have been very reliable, anyway. I think there have been 2
bulb failures in 3 years. Light levels are a real problem in this room, so
the purpose of rebulbing was to get enough light, not save power. We got
both benefits, anyway. It was previously lit by 32 150 watt halogens. They
ran very hot and one died about every week.

The 48 CFLs in the other room are all dimmable via DMX quad dimmer packs.
They are used in 8s in a fixture that has an open mounting (chandeliers),
and is rated at 50 watts per bulb. The extra lumens per watt (ab out 6x)
has been a very strategic feature for those rooms.

They are both primarily made up of glass, which is
recylcliable.

** Nice " selecting the evidence " fallacy.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter,
space heating generally comes by a more efficient path
that was detailed above.

** More example selecting.

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

Not true in the US. We make heavy use of natural gas, partially because we
have tons of it that has historically been a byproduct of petroleum
production.

Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room,
which is true in maybe 90% of the US in the summer.

** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little
extra heat is mostly welcome.

IME, not true. People around here who are cooling their houses in the summer
often draw the drapes and blinds to "keep the heat outside". Then they turn
on room lights to restore their ability to work and navigate.

Aside from CFLs, there is also a lot dimmable fluorescent lighting in use in
office and industry. These bulbs are 4-terminal devices and have a much
wider effective range of operation than 2-terminal CFLs.

One other comment - it appears that dimmable CFLs on the same circuit may
slightly affect each other's operation, particularly at low levels.

"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison"

Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same.

** No-one said that.

Total red herring anyhow.

The variations in dimmable CFLs are pretty obvious in use.


** WRONG subject - you ****ing IMBECILE !!!!!!!!!



Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different
wattages to be useful in a wide variety of applications.

** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard
to find.

Dimmable CFLs are available in the US ...


** None on general retail sale here in Aussie.



True that disposal is more critical especially because
of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where
CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.

** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far
more often.

I am reflecting on my experience which is based on the use of several
100's of bulbs in a church/school.


** Try following the context too - you ****ing IMBECILE.


** More example selecting.

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

Not true in the US.


** So ****ing what ?

God you stinking YANKS are so ****ing parochial.



Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room,
which is true in maybe 90% of the US in the summer.

** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little
extra heat is mostly welcome.

IME, not true.


** Yawn - Arny the ASS just ignores what is actually posted.

Typical ASD ****ed, compewter geek, egomaniac with a bad attitude.




........ Phil

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 05:35:03 -0400, Meat Plow
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 06:16:10 +0000, Karl Uppiano wrote:

Does anybody know what the hell set this guy off?

Yeh he's a former mental patient, just ignore him.

---
Hmmm...

Commentary from a _current_ inmate.


--
JF

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
You seem to have exceptionally bad luck.

Tell me about it!
But in fact since it happens with such regularity, claiming it is just bad
luck, is wishful thinking.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally strange that is ?

No, since many others claim the same experience.

A few years back
some brands were affected by the 'bad caps' issue. Maybe that affected
your
judgement of them ?

Nope, has been happening for over ten years. The last CFL in my house died
last week in fact, it too was an "infant" according to manufacturers claims.
Replaced it with an incandescent, so now I have no CFL's.

I for one, have never had a CFL fail to last at least years in practical
use.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally unusual that is? :-)

MrT.

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
You seem to have exceptionally bad luck.

Tell me about it!
But in fact since it happens with such regularity, claiming it is just bad
luck, is wishful thinking.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally strange that is ?

No, since many others claim the same experience.

A few years back
some brands were affected by the 'bad caps' issue. Maybe that affected
your
judgement of them ?

Nope, has been happening for over ten years. The last CFL in my house died
last week in fact, it too was an "infant" according to manufacturers
claims.
Replaced it with an incandescent, so now I have no CFL's.

I for one, have never had a CFL fail to last at least years in practical
use.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally unusual that is? :-)

Doesn't seem unusual to me (or any of my acquaintances).
Have you ever measured your mains voltage? Is it within
"normal" specifications?

"Eeysore Lying Half wit" "
Phil Allison wrote:

"Karl Uppiano"
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians
are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip,
chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical
incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit
of
metal in it.

** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

More like 4mg.


** Absolute ********.


Philips is now using 2mg IIRC.


** Laughable.



....... Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore Lying Half wit" "
Phil Allison wrote:

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

More like 4mg.

** Absolute ********.

Philips is now using 2mg IIRC.

** Laughable.

The new Extreme Low Mercury designated products can be recognised by a logo on
the packaging and product. These include the MASTER PL-L , PL-TOP and PL-C
ranges which have been reduced to 1.4mg and the MASTER CFL-I ranges which are
all lower than 2 mg whereas the lighting industry benchmark is between 2.4mg
-8mg.

http://www.lighting.philips.com/gl_e...n_news&lang=en

Graham

"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL
use
compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next
two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.


** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.


I've seem some sensible moves towards banning just 'inefficient'
incandescents
i.e standard tungsten filament types.


** Yawn - the cretin only talks about its own demented brain.


It would be crazy to eliminate halogens.


** Many times less efficient that normal lamps in typical home usage.

The proposed MEPS will knock them out for sure.



........ Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next
two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.

No ban has been announced. In fact this would be a good time to lobby against
one.

Nothing will (can) legally happen until there is a relevant Directive.

Graham

Phil Allison wrote:

The proposed MEPS will knock them out for sure.

WTF is a MEPS ?

Graham

"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making
CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the
next
two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.

No ban has been announced.


** See the word " impending " ????

Need to look up a dictionary - do you ****wit ?

Was in all the news papers.

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...t-light-bulbs/

http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...66634620070309



.......... Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making
CFL use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the
next two years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.

No ban has been announced.

** See the word " impending " ????

Need to look up a dictionary - do you ****wit ?

Was in all the news papers.

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...t-light-bulbs/

http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...66634620070309

Lat time I checked, newspapers don't make the law.

Graham

"Eeysore ****ing ****HEAD "



** See the word " impending " ????

Need to look up a dictionary - do you ****wit ?

Was in all the news papers.

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...t-light-bulbs/

http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...66634620070309


YOU ASD ****ED PILE OF ****




.......... Phil

"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "




The proposed MEPS will knock them out for sure.

WTF is a MEPS ?


** Go look it up

you ASD ****ED ****HEAD !!



....... Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore ****ing ****HEAD "

** See the word " impending " ????

Need to look up a dictionary - do you ****wit ?

Was in all the news papers.

Newspapers don't make the law.

Graham

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making
CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the
next
two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.

No ban has been announced. In fact this would be a good time to lobby
against
one.

Nothing will (can) legally happen until there is a relevant Directive.

Graham


Your faith in the ability of Mr Little Guy, to do anything to derail
something that has been proposed as an EU - wide directive, particularly one
that has been instigated by Germany, is touching, but sadly misplaced I
fear. Just witness how everybody thought that the nations who rose up and
voted against the constitution, had killed it dead. Now, it has just got up
again, and has sneaked round to the back door, where you can't see it ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Phil Allison wrote:
"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making
CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the
next
two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.

No ban has been announced. In fact this would be a good time to lobby
against one.

Nothing will (can) legally happen until there is a relevant Directive.


Your faith in the ability of Mr Little Guy, to do anything to derail
something that has been proposed as an EU - wide directive, particularly one
that has been instigated by Germany, is touching, but sadly misplaced I
fear. Just witness how everybody thought that the nations who rose up and
voted against the constitution, had killed it dead. Now, it has just got up
again, and has sneaked round to the back door, where you can't see it ...

Well, if you accept it as a done deal obviously nothing will change.

Graham

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
Doesn't seem unusual to me (or any of my acquaintances).

Well I'm not the only one here, not to mention many of my friends and
aquaintences.

Have you ever measured your mains voltage? Is it within
"normal" specifications?

Yep, no problems where I live.
And maybe you missed the last dozen times I said I have NO problems with
normal fluorescent tubes and incandescent bulbs.

MrT.

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Lat time I checked, newspapers don't make the law.

You've never heard of Rupert Murdoch and James Packer then?

MrT.

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Phil Allison wrote:
"Eeysore ****ing Tenth Wit "

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by
making
CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the
next
two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

** The ban has been announced and the process has begun.

No ban has been announced. In fact this would be a good time to lobby
against one.

Nothing will (can) legally happen until there is a relevant Directive.


Your faith in the ability of Mr Little Guy, to do anything to derail
something that has been proposed as an EU - wide directive, particularly
one
that has been instigated by Germany, is touching, but sadly misplaced I
fear. Just witness how everybody thought that the nations who rose up
and
voted against the constitution, had killed it dead. Now, it has just got
up
again, and has sneaked round to the back door, where you can't see it ...

Well, if you accept it as a done deal obviously nothing will change.

Graham


As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the small
man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I think. We
have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least the last 10 years
( ;~} ) and probably longer. How many people marched on London opposing
the invasion of Iraq ? How many people signed the petition against
introducing road charging ? How many people voted overwhelmingly against a
European constitution ? How many people stood up and demonstrated against
crippling fuel taxes ? The list is endless, and if there are any places
where Joe Public has had any effect on what a government has decided is
'good for the people', then they are small victories indeed, and would need
a lot of looking for. With the current hype and hysteria about man-made
global warming, there is no way that Ms Merkel and her fellow
"Euro-we-know-best-ites", are going to let this one go ... I would guess
'done deal' as you say, in all but actual on the books legislation.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the
small
man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I think.

By a couple of thousand years IMO. Democracy started and ended in ancient
Greece. Then quasi (representitive) democracy was invented, when they could
even be bothered with the pretence. Which wasn't all that often anyway.

We have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least the last 10
years

You think you did have it under Maggie Thatcher :-)
But don't worry, The USA is worse under Bush, and so is Australia under
Howard.

MrT.

"Arfa Daily" wrote ...

As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the
small man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I
think. We have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least
the last 10 years ( ;~} ) and probably longer. How many people
marched on London opposing the invasion of Iraq ?

As a fraction of the actual voting public? Or do you
mean how many did it look like on TV (vs. the actual
numbers.) We have demonstrations all the time over
here in the Washington DC "Mall" where you can get
a couple hundred people together and if you are on the
right side of the issue (that is the "left side"), the "news"
purveyors will shoot and edit it to look like thousands
(or even hundreds of thousands if it is a slow news day.)

"Arny Krueger"


10-4 good buddy!


** Oh - how the once high and mighty have fallen.

Arny is now a grinning, dribbling, pathetic caricature of his once proud
self.

Dementia is most cruel.

But the Good Lord knows who to punish.

Arny's days are all numbered.





........ Phil

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Arfa Daily" wrote ...

As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the
small man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I
think. We have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least the
last 10 years ( ;~} ) and probably longer. How many people marched on
London opposing the invasion of Iraq ?

As a fraction of the actual voting public? Or do you
mean how many did it look like on TV (vs. the actual
numbers.) We have demonstrations all the time over
here in the Washington DC "Mall" where you can get
a couple hundred people together and if you are on the
right side of the issue (that is the "left side"), the "news"
purveyors will shoot and edit it to look like thousands
(or even hundreds of thousands if it is a slow news day.)


The conservative estimate (by the police) was 750,000 - see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

Now that's a big protest march in a country this size, by anyone's
definition. Over a million people signed the anti road pricing petition that
I mentioned. Again, that is a very substantial piece of the motoring public.
The day after that petition closed, the minister for transport, or whatever
he was, publicly declared that the petition was basically nonsense, because
the motoring public did not know what was good for them, and what was the
'right' thing to do, so they were going to go ahead with the pilot schemes,
regardless. Despite France and The Netherlands ( Holland ) returning a
resounding "No" vote to the establishing of a Europe-wide 'constitution',
which would seriously erode yet further, a country's right to govern itself,
and set its own laws and taxes, and which vote should have spelt an end to
further pressure on the member states, it is now being reintroduced by the
back door, in such a way that it will be very hard to knock on the head
again.

And to Mr T, the answer to whether we had more democracy under Mrs Thatcher,
from those of us who can remember her conservative government, the answer
has to be yes. At least I didn't feel like they were trying to run my entire
life for me, as this lot do ...

Arfa