"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message

Oh I know the point!...I did graphic design for a living for about 5
years....It's like the client saying, "I like the idea, but can you make
it
edgier and more hip, without it being brash?"

Reminds me of a friend who does Mac support. He relaed a story to me
where
a client asked a designer if he could just make the design "prettier".
The
designer told my friend "oh, sure...I'll just hit the Apple 'pretty'
button".

In the studio, every mixing console worth its salt has a "talent" button.
The console in most cRAP studios is built around a bank of them.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

He does, indeed. I snipped the second part of his message in the
interests of insult. UA irritated me somewhat with his message (I don't
think we should overlook the little things just because big things are
afoot) but the reply I find quite egregious. For some reason, "Brian"
too serious, apparently personal, insult which I do find a little
baffling. I was somewhat unfair as his other messages seem reasonable
and obviously his panties got in a serious knot for some reason over
this. Everyone has their buttons I guess.

You know what, you're absolutely right, and in that regard I apologize.

Still, I take extreme offense that I was accused of being an "idjit"
and "Darwin Award material", not to mention the all-too-apparent
inference that I don't care about what happened in Indonesia. All from
someone who wouldn't know me if he passed me on the street, or sat next
to me at the bar. The nerve of him to make such an assumption
definitely hit my button; I just hope he's half as good a woodworker as
he is an assumer.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:31:33 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Yeah, they have to protect their trademark, but their trademark is "Monster
Cable". If somebody started selling cable as "Monsters Cable" or "Mobster
Cable" or "Monster Wire" or something else that could be easily confused
with their trademark then they'd have a legitimate case, but no sane person
is going to confuse snowboarding videos or an animated feature film with
overpriced glorified lamp cord.

Sure, but how the hell is Disney's "Monsters Inc." going to be
confused with Monster Cable? Or Monster.com? Or any of the other
companies they are throwin frivilous lawsuits at? How are they
protecting their trademark?

You are aware that in order for the suit to be valid, there has to be
a chance that an individual would MISTAKE one company or their
products for another, right?

It'll get thrown out.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:05:27 -0500, Brian wrote:

Companies like Monster Cable depend on people's
ignorance
for their continued success.

or, to put it another way, Monster Cable is to cabling as Bose is to
speakers.

Ridiculously overpriced?

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:35:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

I don't know. Think about this. You listen to music on your $6000 stereo
and it sounds good. When you call a store and are put on "hold", that same
music does not sound so good over the telephone. Why? Think about all those
spices and connections on the phone wires. That must be the difference. If
the phone company used straight runs of Monster Cable, we'd get the same
good sound.

Of course you wouldn't because you'd still have 20k feet of cable.
Cable is cable. Monster doesn't use magical pixies to make special
cables in the middle of the night. One piece of 14-gauge wire is
going to be EXACTLY THE SAME as another piece of 14-gauge wire of the
same length. Deal with it.

You're just ****ed because you got ripped off by those Monster
shysters.

Actually, the country is fine Brian. Way better than most
any other nation in the world. OK, way better than 99% of
the population of the world.

No, the country is *not* fine, and Monster Cable's actions and legal
system's acceptance are a perfect example of one of the many ways we
are *not* fine. I take it you approve of their actions, then? That this
is the way the system is *supposed* to work?

I never said that we didn't have it good, and I agree with you
wholeheartedly that we do, in fact, have it much better than
*everywhere* else. Doesn't mean we don't have problems, or that we're
perfect in every way. Blind patriotism is still a blindness.




It's people who say that it's
being dragged down that are the problem.

Sounds like Rush Limbaugh talking there. There is *nothing* wrong with
dissent, *nothing* wrong with accepting our faults and *nothing* wrong
with trying to improve upon ourselves. We are not a perfect country, we
are not a perfect society, we do not have a perfect form of government
or commerce. It might be the best that's come along so far but it's
*far* from unimproveable.

(And before I am inevitably accused, to make it clear I am neither a
liberal nor a conservative. I am an independent thinker and voter, but
Rush and his ilk (on both sides of the ideological aisle) do this
country no good whatsoever. All they're good for is spouting their
rhetoric off hatered and intolerance and close-mindedness to other
points of view.)



(1) Damn it!!! I can't lie to you Brian. I/we all think

Perhaps you should stick to speaking for yourself, there. You don't
seem to be too good at speaking for others, because you've got me all
wrong.




(2) OK, I lied again. I/we don't think you can be topped.

Whatever... if you think I'm somehow the worst you have or will
encounter then you must live in a nice bubble somewhere.



Brian

It'll get thrown out.

But the sad thing is, before half of these cases even get to court the
accused are giving in and paying Monster Cable to avoid the legal fees
and hassles of a court case. It happens all the time; it's often
cheaper to settle than to stand your ground for what you know is right.

or, to put it another way, Monster Cable is to cabling as Bose is to
speakers.

Ridiculously overpriced?

Bingo. They don't make bad speakers, but they place themselves in a
market niche (both in terms of quality and price) that they don't
belong. You can get ten times the speaker for the same price, but you
won't find them in Best Buy or Circuit City.

Brian wrote:
or, to put it another way, Monster Cable is to cabling as Bose is to
speakers.

Ridiculously overpriced?

Bingo. They don't make bad speakers, but they place themselves in a
market niche (both in terms of quality and price) that they don't
belong. You can get ten times the speaker for the same price, but you
won't find them in Best Buy or Circuit City.

For the benefit of those of us wanting to upgrade speakers, but don't have
the knowledge to "know what we don't know", what are the brands that rival
Bose in sound?

Thanks.

-- Mark

In the studio, every mixing console worth its salt has a "talent" button.
The console in most cRAP studios is built around a bank of them.

They don't work too well, in that case.....

"Robatoy" wrote in message

I once had a certified gold set of way better than average ears, have
recorded and mixed over 200 albums with these same ears, and I was
always of
the opinion that anyone who falls for Monster's claims has too much
spare
change, along with a large helping of naiveté.

Say it ain't so, Swingman!!!

Tis sadly true ... as you well know.

If you had absolute certainty that
the soundpressure levels of the tests were dead-nuts in amplitude
between components... then it become every difficult to tell
differences.

Boy howdy ...absolutely deadon correct! Watch that salesman's fingers on the
volume knob, now!

Fletcher-Munson notwithstanding, the tiniest "increments of whatever" that
effect the volume of what you are hearing in any way, and it's a whole new
ball game as far as objective comparison goes.

Harry Pearson can kiss my ass. 'Gravelly bass, white chocolate midrange,
pebbly top-end included.

ROTFL ... "Why, with this speaker/wire/connector/component/dojiggy we heard
things in the recording we never heard before!" gag

But.. having said all that, do you have a source for green magic markers?

No, but I do have a rider that specifies only brown M & M's in the "green"
room, if you're interested.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Actually, this is quite common.

Well, I don't know if I would go that far ... but Eric Johnson has proven
that at least he can, so I am sure there are others.

I mean, I've been known to be more than a bit picky about my monitor mix and
how I hear my bass on stage in relation to the rest of the band, but the
"brand" of battery in an effects pedal is a wee bit over-the-top, IMO.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:20:25 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Suits like this have been rejected by the courts out of hand in the US.

Well that's alright and Monster aren't actually doing this then,
are they ?

"mark" wrote in message
In the studio, every mixing console worth its salt has a "talent"
button.
The console in most cRAP studios is built around a bank of them.

They don't work too well, in that case.....

Acutally, its a matter of perspective ... you say that because you've only
ever heard the final mix, with the switch ON!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

Leon responds:

have a source that basically
sells me same quality cables and some times same brand for about 20 cents
on the dollar when compared to CompUSA, Best Buy, Circuit City. This type
stuff is where the profit is for these guys,


Best Buy, for one, is not backing off profit on regular items. I had to buy a
new monitor last week. BB wanted $250 bucks for the monitor. That's $262.50
with tax. Dell, not noted for good deals fiscally, had the exact same monitor
(one number off at BB so price matching is impossible) in a package that
brought it to my door for $216.36, tax and shipping included.

Charlie Self
"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above
that which is expected." George W. Bush

For the benefit of those of us wanting to upgrade speakers, but don't have
the knowledge to "know what we don't know", what are the brands that rival
Bose in sound?

Radio shack, anything that Walmart sells, and the speakers you get free in
cereal boxes.

Of course you wouldn't because you'd still have 20k feet of cable.
Cable is cable. Monster doesn't use magical pixies to make special
cables in the middle of the night. One piece of 14-gauge wire is
going to be EXACTLY THE SAME as another piece of 14-gauge wire of the
same length. Deal with it.

I take it you've never heard any differences between speaker wires. The
sonic differences between speaker wires or interconnects is not that hard to
demonstrate on a good system.

mp wrote:
For the benefit of those of us wanting to upgrade speakers, but
don't have the knowledge to "know what we don't know", what are the
brands that rival Bose in sound?

Radio shack, anything that Walmart sells, and the speakers you get
free in cereal boxes.

Bullsh*t. ;-)

-- Mark

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:41:59 -0800, "mp" wrote:


I take it you've never heard any differences between speaker wires. The
sonic differences between speaker wires or interconnects is not that hard to
demonstrate on a good system.



"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to
speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster
cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be
superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker
cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable
characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound
different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead
of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and
our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the
three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits
claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We
can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides
pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

"Speaker Cables: Can You Hear the Difference?", Laurence Greenhill in
Stereo Review.


tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)

mp wrote:
I recall a test done by Stereo Review some years ago. In blind testing,
none of the listeners could tell the difference between Monster cable,
other high priced brands, and lamp cord.


More that likely either the tests were faulty of the reviewers had tin ears.
Probably a combination of both.


No. they forgot to put the magnets on the wires. You get 25
decibels more per mile, per room, with magnets.

Lobby Dosser wrote:

WalMart started as one store in the 50s or 60s in Arkansas. Harrisonvile,
IIRC.

1962. Rogers. My bad. I was exactly 10 years off.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:11:35 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Greg wrote:

Bobby Pickett should sue the whole damn lot of them. He copyrighted
"Monster Mash" in 1962

Who holds the copyright to Steppenwolf's "Monster"? (Please dear Lord let
it be somebody big enough to buy Monster Cable outright out of petty cash
and fire the whole lot for cause then sue them personally for everything
their sharks-on-a-leash can think of so they don't get away with a pile
from their stock options).

Shame on Disney--Disney's big enough to stomp them flat, but instead they
settled.

With corporations, it isn't a matter of right or wrong -- it's a
negotiation and budget analysis. If it would cost $x to stomp Monster
cable flat, but they could settle for a smaller $y, then they pick the
smaller number. If the analysis had shown the other way, you can bet that
monster cable would now be a formerly registered company. Companies like
monster also know how other corporations work, and attempt to set their
extortion rates such that they come out on the winning side. One recent
case where this appears to have gone horribly awry is SCO's attempt to take
down Linux -- but that was probably driven by some hidden money from
elsewhere (purely speculating of course).


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:23:50 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:58:54 -0500, Brian wrote:

Such a sad state the American legal system is in that these things --
which IMO are in some cases out-and-out extortion, and in all cases
flagrant abuse of the legal system -- are allowed to continue.

Playing Devil's Avocado for a moment...

Monster Cable have a legal duty to do this, as the law permits them to
issue these vexatious suits and their duty to their shareholders
requires them to extort money from all possible avenues. Don't blame
Monster for this, blame the unholy mess that is the US legal system.

The suits are bad and wrong. But they're perfectly legal, and if you
don't have a court system that will reject them out of hand, them
Monster are just acting in a way that's being positively encouraged.


For a UK version of this, take a look at "EasyJet" and the owner's
ferocious pursuit of Easy* names

Now that could be an interesting set of circumstances. It would be quite
fun to hear the arguments in court how some porno site with "Easy" in its
name was infringing EasyJet's trademark because that was an area in which
EasyJet has a business interest.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Actually, this is quite common.

Well, I don't know if I would go that far ... but Eric Johnson has proven
that at least he can, so I am sure there are others.

I mean, I've been known to be more than a bit picky about my monitor mix
and
how I hear my bass on stage in relation to the rest of the band, but the
"brand" of battery in an effects pedal is a wee bit over-the-top, IMO.


Check around - you'll find more than a few players who have preferences for
battery type based on what they hear. Mostly it's because of the effect
that the brand of battery's decay had on the pedal. It's more common than
you think.
--

-Mike-

"mp" wrote in message
...
For the benefit of those of us wanting to upgrade speakers, but don't
have
the knowledge to "know what we don't know", what are the brands that
rival
Bose in sound?

Radio shack, anything that Walmart sells, and the speakers you get free in
cereal boxes.



Damn - ya gotta be fast here.
--

-Mike-

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:20:25 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Suits like this have been rejected by the courts out of hand in the US.

Well that's alright and Monster aren't actually doing this then,
are they ?


I didn't say that Andy. Please re-read what I wrote.
--

-Mike-

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:06:59 +0000, Eugene wrote:

Mike in Mystic wrote:

man, that makes me want to go and cut up the monster cables I have all
over
my home theater set-up. too bad they already got a lot of my money, the
bahstards. this stuff really is hard to believe


There are many other companies which do the same thing. Microsoft for
example, if your company or product, software or not has the word Windows
or something similar you can expect a lawsuit.

Hmmm, wonder how well paid Anderson's lawyers are? They've been around
selling "Anderson Windows" for what, a couple millenia before Billy G was
even a gleam in IBM's eyes?




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:59:28 -0800, Steve Knight
wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:18:23 -0500, "leonard" wrote:

I hope monster cable wins . they are only doing what any business does to
protect it very valuable name.Others that use similar names should expect to
looked also. Copy right laws exist for a purpose. but do not worry about
this small company (he's fine), he has done it for the free publicity for
his business.


monster is not exactly a uncommon work. what your going to sue any parent that
tells their kids about the monster under the bed?
these companies have nothing to do with audio cables. they will get no benefit
from the name association.
in the long run monster cables will suffer from stupidity.

So Steve, you thinking of coming out with a "Monster Plane"?




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:54:53 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:


"mark" wrote in message
In the studio, every mixing console worth its salt has a "talent"
button.
The console in most cRAP studios is built around a bank of them.

They don't work too well, in that case.....

Acutally, its a matter of perspective ... you say that because you've only
ever heard the final mix, with the switch ON!

So you're saying the "talent" button is actually a filter that takes the
goodness out?

Heaven help the poor sound technician if it actually sounds worse ebfore
the final mix!


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:57:09 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:41:59 -0800, "mp" wrote:


I take it you've never heard any differences between speaker wires. The
sonic differences between speaker wires or interconnects is not that hard to
demonstrate on a good system.



"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to
speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster
cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be
superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker
cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable
characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound
different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead
of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and
our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the
three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits
claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We
can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides
pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

"Speaker Cables: Can You Hear the Difference?", Laurence Greenhill in
Stereo Review.



Seems like instead of a subjective test, someone with the resources of
Stereo review could have done a bona-fide quantitative measurement by using
an audio sweep generator and a spectrum analyzer in a sound chamber. I'm
guessing that the spectral response of equivalent gauge conductors,
properly connected would have been nearly indistinguishable from one
another.

[but then again, I could be wrong]



tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Radio shack, anything that Walmart sells, and the speakers you get
free in cereal boxes.

Bullsh*t. ;-)

Ok, ya got me. Scratch the cereal boxes.

"Speaker Cables: Can You Hear the Difference?", Laurence Greenhill in
Stereo Review.

Stereo Review is hardly the magazine for meaningful reviews. If they
couldn't hear any differences between speaker cables it's probably because
they were listening to Bose speakers.

Good doesn't have to be expensive. I have some home-made cables and
interconnects that sound better than others I've tested in the several
hundred dollar range.

More that likely either the tests were faulty of the reviewers had tin
ears. Probably a combination of both.
No. they forgot to put the magnets on the wires. You get 25 decibels more
per mile, per room, with magnets.

Speaking of magnets, very thin (and cheap) pure copper magnet wire assembled
with decent plugs and the correct topology makes for some dammed fine
interconnects.

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

This type
stuff is where the profit is for these guys,

Hell yes. Back in vinyl era, my fiend's audio store in Toronto would
make more money on the peripherals when a system was sold than on the
system itself. Record cleaners, Decca brush, Yes...wires, Antistatic
stuff, extra gummy turn-table mats and so on...

These days... he sells digital cameras. $30 dollars profit on a $300
name-brand camera....if he's lucky. $100 worth of accessories, like a
bag and a tripod, charger, yada yada $50 dollars profit.

When I was manufacturing loudspeakers, I made some decent money on my
optional stands.

So Leon..and I admit that I have difficulty saying this at the best of
times to anybody... but..you are right. G

And if you are right...that would make me???....waitasecond...I have to
rephrase all of this...LOL

Have a nice weekend..

In article ,
"Swingman" wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Actually, this is quite common.

Well, I don't know if I would go that far ... but Eric Johnson has proven
that at least he can, so I am sure there are others.

I mean, I've been known to be more than a bit picky about my monitor mix and
how I hear my bass on stage in relation to the rest of the band, but the
"brand" of battery in an effects pedal is a wee bit over-the-top, IMO.

Bass, eh?..*G*..Reminded me of this joke:


An anthropologist decides to investigate the natives of a far-flung
tropical island. He flew there, found a guide with a canoe to take him
up the river to the remote site where he would make his collections.
About noon on the second day of travel up the river they began to hear
drums. Being a city boy by nature, the anthropologist was disturbed by
this. He asked the guide, "What are those drums?"
The guide turned to him and said "Drums OK, but VERY BAD when they
stop."

Then, after some hours, the drums suddenly stopped! This hit the
anthropologist like a ton of bricks, and he yelled at the guide: "The
Drums have stopped, what happens now?"

The guide crouched down, covered his head with his hands and said,
"Bass Solo".

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

[pardon the snip]

Remember, however, that it was a measurable
characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound
different from the other cables.

That slightly higher resistance (fractions of ohms per foot) can
actually have a pleasant effect on the audio experience. Remember when
'damping' was a buzz-word?.....LOL

At Bruel & Kjaer in Denmark. IIRC, (or was it at Dynaudio...mmm) they
did an experiment with a nifty control circuit which could 'dial in'
harmonic distortion. I forgot the numbers, but the amount of even order
distortion a human being can put up with before it is noticed is
absolutely amazing...like 10% (Odd order was much more noticeable)

We are woodworkers here.. let's talk about loudspeaker cabinet design
and materials *VBS*

Rob

E=MC^2 ? 3dB

In article ,
Mark & Juanita wrote:

Seems like instead of a subjective test, someone with the resources of
Stereo review could have done a bona-fide quantitative measurement by using
an audio sweep generator and a spectrum analyzer in a sound chamber. I'm
guessing that the spectral response of equivalent gauge conductors,
properly connected would have been nearly indistinguishable from one
another.

[but then again, I could be wrong]


BTDT.. you are not wrong. You're well into the MHz ranges and different
wave-forms before anything starts to show up.

r

In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

I am thinking the 25 cent speaker in the hand set may factor in.

*wiping the monitor*

In article ,
"Swingman" wrote:

"mark" wrote in message

Besides, I'm a drummer, I just hang out with the musicians.

LOL ... it's good to know that at last some drummers know their place!

;)

hehehehe..somebody has to drive the bus...

In article , "mp"
wrote:

For the benefit of those of us wanting to upgrade speakers, but don't have
the knowledge to "know what we don't know", what are the brands that rival
Bose in sound?

Radio shack, anything that Walmart sells, and the speakers you get free in
cereal boxes.



and even the cereal boxes themselves...Lots of snap, crackle.......