"TBone" wrote in message
m...

What exactly do you want it to do for you? If the saw blade is already
not
moving, how can it help you? If it drops the blade into the table, the
dropping blade can still cut you on the way down and now you get the added
insult of spending $50 to replace the charge for no real help at all.

HUH? The saw does not have to be turnrd on for the blade to be spinning. I
was injured after turning the saw off and before the blade coasted down to a
stop. In this instance the SawStop would have prevented my injury.

What happens if the blade is not moving, and you touch it?

This could also be easily handled by a motion detector or something like
the
centripical device that engauges or disingauges the start capacitors in
induction motors.

Again, what would be the point?

The point of what? Having a motion detector? If that is what you are
talking about, the motion detector to detect the spinning blade would enable
the system. If no "predetermined" minimum speed is detected by the motion
detector the system would be disabled. This would prevent the system from
tripping when changing blades or turning the blade by hand.

Now you would be creating a substantial
increase in the cost of the machine with no real benefit at all.

I suspect this is already built in for the purpose stated above and a motion
decector or speed sensor would be inexpensive. Almost every automobile has
a speed sensor at the crankshaft to determine timing. Same thing could be
used here. A magnet and a sensor.

No safety
device in the world can protect someone from their own laziness or
stupidity
and it really is up to the woodworker to understand what they are working
with and to pay attention and be careful, even when the machine is not
running.

Exactly but the more safety you have built in, the less likely you or I or
any one else will be injured. And don't even think that you are 100% not
lazy or stupid when operating any equipment 100% of the time. You are
probably human like every one else and are not capable of not making a
mistake.

"TBone" wrote in message news:hoCyd.10287

Since I had an injury about 15 years ago with the saw turned off I
e-mailed
SawStop and adked that that question.
It still continuues to work with no power. IMHO, a simple capicator
could
store enough energy to power the device.

What exactly do you want it to do for you? If the saw blade is already
not
moving, how can it help you?


The blade may still be moving with the power off. Keep your eye on the
blade next time you hit the switch. From what I've read, lots of people get
injured by saw blades running unpowered.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"TBone" wrote in message
m...

What exactly do you want it to do for you? If the saw blade is already
not
moving, how can it help you? If it drops the blade into the table, the
dropping blade can still cut you on the way down and now you get the
added
insult of spending $50 to replace the charge for no real help at all.

HUH? The saw does not have to be turnrd on for the blade to be spinning.
I
was injured after turning the saw off and before the blade coasted down to
a
stop. In this instance the SawStop would have prevented my injury.

Your paying attention to what you were doing at the time probably would have
as well and I bet you never made that same mistake again. I don't know what
happened to you but if you were already in a position to stop the saw, it
seems likely that you could have avoided it.


What happens if the blade is not moving, and you touch it?

This could also be easily handled by a motion detector or something
like
the
centripical device that engauges or disingauges the start capacitors in
induction motors.

Again, what would be the point?

The point of what? Having a motion detector? If that is what you are
talking about, the motion detector to detect the spinning blade would
enable
the system. If no "predetermined" minimum speed is detected by the motion
detector the system would be disabled. This would prevent the system from
tripping when changing blades or turning the blade by hand.

That is far more difficult than you give it credit for. Where exactly do
you intend to mount this detector and what is going to power it after you
shut the power to the was off. At best, I would put a 5 to 10 second delay
in it's shutdown to give the blade time to stop which would serve your
purpose and cost much less.



Now you would be creating a substantial
increase in the cost of the machine with no real benefit at all.

I suspect this is already built in for the purpose stated above and a
motion
decector or speed sensor would be inexpensive. Almost every automobile
has
a speed sensor at the crankshaft to determine timing. Same thing could be
used here. A magnet and a sensor.

Where exactly do you intend to mount either the magnet or the sensor? And
even then, they will still do nothing without the monitering and logic
circuits the use them.


No safety
device in the world can protect someone from their own laziness or
stupidity
and it really is up to the woodworker to understand what they are
working
with and to pay attention and be careful, even when the machine is not
running.

Exactly but the more safety you have built in, the less likely you or I or
any one else will be injured.

I disagree with this. I have come to find that when something has too much
safety equipment on it, the users lose respect for it and simply begin to
use it more dangerously. I did notice that in a past thread someone sade
the claim that statistics show less injuries on a RAS than on table saws and
I would bet that that spinning blade above the table makes the user VERY
aware of what they are working with.

And don't even think that you are 100% not
lazy or stupid when operating any equipment 100% of the time. You are
probably human like every one else and are not capable of not making a
mistake.

I never made that claim and have been injured, sometimes do to being stupid
but I seldom make the same mistake twice.

--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

TBone wrote:



"Leon" wrote in message
. ..

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:55:38 -0800, "ted harris"

Questions.

What happens when you have turned off the power to the saw motor?

Since I had an injury about 15 years ago with the saw turned off I
e-mailed
SawStop and adked that that question.
It still continuues to work with no power. IMHO, a simple capicator
could store enough energy to power the device.

What exactly do you want it to do for you? If the saw blade is already
not
moving, how can it help you? If it drops the blade into the table, the
dropping blade can still cut you on the way down and now you get the added
insult of spending $50 to replace the charge for no real help at all.

The questions are (a) does it trip and cost you 50 bucks and a new blade if
you touch the blade while the blade is not turning and (b) does it fail to
trip and let you get cut if the power is turned off but the blade has not
stopped spinning.

What happens if the blade is not moving, and you touch it?

This could also be easily handled by a motion detector or something like
the
centripical device that engauges or disingauges the start capacitors in
induction motors.

Again, what would be the point? Now you would be creating a substantial
increase in the cost of the machine with no real benefit at all. No
safety device in the world can protect someone from their own laziness or
stupidity and it really is up to the woodworker to understand what they
are working with and to pay attention and be careful, even when the
machine is not running.

While it is inconcievable to me that anyone would try to market such a thing
without making provisions for the two conditions mentioned above, I have
see manufactureres do enough really stupid things to agree that these are
legitimate questions.

I distinctly recall a post in which someone did describe what happens in
those situations based on his personal experience either with a delivered
saw or a prototype, but now I can't find the post. Something about there
being a green light that is on whenever it is armed, which included a
certain period of time after power-off, and when the light goes out then
you can touch the blade without triggering. Trouble is I may very well
have dreamed it.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"TBone" wrote in message
. ..

Your paying attention to what you were doing at the time probably would
have
as well and I bet you never made that same mistake again. I don't know
what
happened to you but if you were already in a position to stop the saw, it
seems likely that you could have avoided it.

Actually I make the same miustke again about 9 months later and realized
that this is how I must have been injured. Fortunately or not, I did not
have as much thumb hanging down as it is half gone now and did not repeat
the trip to the ER. Believe me when you are injured like this you may or
may not remember what happened exactly. For days I thought it was kick back
only to realize no wood was damaged. This makes it hard to prevent a freak
accident.

That is far more difficult than you give it credit for.

Not really.

Where exactly do you intend to mount this detector and what is going to
power it after you
shut the power to the was off.

The dectctor can be mounted to the trunion and monitor the arbor pully or
shaft. The crank shaft saensor on many car engines is simply a closely
mounted sensor, "about the size of a small cigarette lighter", counting the
times a magnetic spot on the harmonic balancer passed by it in a given
amount of time.
The saw always has power, just not always going to the motor. The sensor
could be energised from the live side of the on off switch.

From what I understand the SawStop has these capabilities and I was simply
explaining one of the possible way that this can be accomplished. I am not
saying that this is in fact how it was accomplished but simply how it could
be done.

Where exactly do you intend to mount either the magnet or the sensor? And
even then, they will still do nothing without the monitering and logic
circuits the use them.

Again, the magnet could be a 1/4" long pencil lead sized object imbedded in
a small drilled hole on the end of the arbor. The sensor coud be mounted
close to the end of the arbor. As far as the logic and circuits, that stuff
is cheap and mass produced. Many battery operated drills have this
circuitery to maintain speed when a load is applied to the drill.

"TBone" wrote in message
. ..

True, but if you shut the saw down, then you really need to continue to
pay
attention until it stops because if you shut it off, you are obviously
done
with your cut.


True. But, hind site is 20/20 and there are countless ways of having a an
accident and you simply cannot anticipate every scenario that is possible.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:12:40 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"TBone" wrote in message news:hoCyd.10287

Since I had an injury about 15 years ago with the saw turned off I
e-mailed
SawStop and adked that that question.
It still continuues to work with no power. IMHO, a simple capicator
could
store enough energy to power the device.

What exactly do you want it to do for you? If the saw blade is already
not
moving, how can it help you?


The blade may still be moving with the power off. Keep your eye on the
blade next time you hit the switch. From what I've read, lots of people get
injured by saw blades running unpowered.

As I understand it from the material I posted here, if the blade is
moving the device is active. Once the blade stops, the device is off.

--RC



"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...




Never have had a bad accident have you?




yup - but I don't tremble in fear of it happening again. Life goes on. Get
over it and get off the soap box - you do more harm than good with your
'tude.

I am on no soap box. Any you "tude" is one of ignorance.

Leon wrote:
"Vic Baron" wrote in message

yup - but I don't tremble in fear of it happening again. Life goes on. Get
over it and get off the soap box - you do more harm than good with your
'tude.


I am on no soap box. Any you "tude" is one of ignorance.

You are not, indeed; you seem pretty reasonable to me. I am entirely
baffled how people can get their panties in such a knot over the
invention of a tablesaw safety device or -- for that matter -- the fact
the company has been slow getting it to market. You would think it was a
massive insult to them or something. What is the deal here? Sheesh, they
must be homicidal about seatbelts. I can't imagine how much they froth
at the mouth about anti-lock brakes, hearing protection or -- god help
us -- eye protection.

PK

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
TBone wrote:


The questions are (a) does it trip and cost you 50 bucks and a new blade
if
you touch the blade while the blade is not turning and (b) does it fail to
trip and let you get cut if the power is turned off but the blade has not
stopped spinning.

From the response directly from SawStop,
A. Speculation here, (a) it will not trip when the blade is not turning.
It would be tough to change blades with out tripping it. (b) if it did trip
it is likely that neither the blade or cartridge would be damaged. IMHO
damage would be the result of stopping a blade spinning at 3600 rpm in 1/8
th of a revolution.

B. No Speculation, the device will trip or trigger if the blade is spinning
even after the saw was turned off.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...




Never have had a bad accident have you?




yup - but I don't tremble in fear of it happening again. Life goes on.
Get
over it and get off the soap box - you do more harm than good with your
'tude.

I am on no soap box. Any you "tude" is one of ignorance.



Considering in a prior post you mentioned having a second accident - yes I'm
ignorant of the fact that someone could be dumb enough to make the same
mistake twice. You'd BETTER get the SawStop - sounds like YOU need it,
lefty. Better still - wanna sell your table saw?

You missed the point completely, as you have with several of your posts.
Let's just let it go and say that you really,really like the SawStop and I
find it a non essential add-on. Plus I do NOT like the attitude of the
company or it's representatives.

Sheesh!

"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
...


I am on no soap box. Any you "tude" is one of ignorance.

You are not, indeed; you seem pretty reasonable to me. I am entirely
baffled how people can get their panties in such a knot over the invention
of a tablesaw safety device or -- for that matter -- the fact the company
has been slow getting it to market. You would think it was a massive
insult to them or something. What is the deal here? Sheesh, they must be
homicidal about seatbelts. I can't imagine how much they froth at the
mouth about anti-lock brakes, hearing protection or -- god help us -- eye
protection.

PK

I am not so sure that many are so much against the idea of the safety devise
so much as their impressions of the company when the company looked to the
government to mandate the use of this or a similar device to be used on all
new table saws. I am also against the government getting involved with our
lives any more than necessary. However not all that the government does is
bad for us. IMHO this safety device is a good idea and I would much rather
see this device than the one that comes on the saw now and gets thrown away
before assembly most of the time. Many people form an opinion and neither
hell or high water will change their minds. ;~)
For those people that have been seriously injured and still have ill
feelings for this device I can respect their feelings. They have been there
and know that it is possible, even for them. For those that feel that harm
will never come to them because they always pay close attention, use proper
tool technique, are way too smart to let an accident happen, or are way too
careful to let an accident happen, I can only say that given enough time
your time will come. I was one of those people that felt that way and all
my friends and relatives could not believe that of all people it happened to
me. I have been down that path and know better now.

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
.. .

Considering in a prior post you mentioned having a second accident

No, I did not say I had a second accident. I stated that I made the same
mistake again. No harm done.


- yes I'm ignorant of the fact that someone could be dumb enough to make the
same
mistake twice. You'd BETTER get the SawStop - sounds like YOU need it,
lefty. Better still - wanna sell your table saw?

You bet I will sell it. It is yours for $2800. U.S It is a 4 year old Jet
cabinet saw, I'll throw in the WWII blade, mobile base and 15 roller outfeed
table.

You missed the point completely, as you have with several of your posts.

What point exactly? I am simply not judging a book by its cover or playing
pile on the under dog.

Let's just let it go and say that you really,really like the SawStop.

That would be your assumption. I really have no reason to like the SawStop
nor any reason not to like it as I have no hands on experience with it and
neither do you I suspect. But I will not damn the product because of the
way it is brought to market. The company is absolutely working within its
rights.

and I
find it a non essential add-on.
Plus I do NOT like the attitude of the
company or it's representatives.

No kidding....

Sheesh!

Can this thread just die? I'm kind of new here but this has gone on for way
to long. There are two camps one that wants to idiot proof something that
has never been idiot proofed before and the other that thinks that it
doesn't need to be idiot proofed (I'm in that group). It seems to be like
arguing religion with someone of a different faith, neither will win!

Just my $.02 worth..


"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
.. .

Considering in a prior post you mentioned having a second accident

No, I did not say I had a second accident. I stated that I made the same
mistake again. No harm done.


- yes I'm ignorant of the fact that someone could be dumb enough to make
the same
mistake twice. You'd BETTER get the SawStop - sounds like YOU need it,
lefty. Better still - wanna sell your table saw?

You bet I will sell it. It is yours for $2800. U.S It is a 4 year old
Jet cabinet saw, I'll throw in the WWII blade, mobile base and 15 roller
outfeed table.

You missed the point completely, as you have with several of your posts.

What point exactly? I am simply not judging a book by its cover or
playing pile on the under dog.

Let's just let it go and say that you really,really like the SawStop.

That would be your assumption. I really have no reason to like the
SawStop nor any reason not to like it as I have no hands on experience
with it and neither do you I suspect. But I will not damn the product
because of the way it is brought to market. The company is absolutely
working within its rights.

and I
find it a non essential add-on.
Plus I do NOT like the attitude of the
company or it's representatives.

No kidding....

Sheesh!

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:55:19 -0500, Paul Kierstead wrote:

You are not, indeed; you seem pretty reasonable to me. I am entirely
baffled how people can get their panties in such a knot over the
invention of a tablesaw safety device or -- for that matter -- the fact
the company has been slow getting it to market.

Seriously, Paul, my problem with them is that it seems to be all show and
no deliver, _and_, while it's still not a real product, they are trying to
have the government force it on everyone. It'd be different if it was
a real product with a proven track record.

You would think it was a
massive insult to them or something. What is the deal here? Sheesh, they
must be homicidal about seatbelts. I can't imagine how much they froth
at the mouth about anti-lock brakes, hearing protection or -- god help
us -- eye protection.

Ah, but all of those (a) exist, and (b) work.

Dave Hinz

X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527

Can this thread just die? I'm kind of new here but this has gone on for way
to long.

Pretty sure that with "outlook express" you can set it to ignore by thread,
or by sender. Should be a way to ignore any thread with the word "sawstop"
in the subject: line, for instance.

If that doesn't give you the option, Forte Agent is a damn fine
newsreader for Windows users; there's even a free version.

Dave Hinz

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:55:19 -0500, Paul Kierstead
wrote:


Seriously, Paul, my problem with them is that it seems to be all show and
no deliver, _and_, while it's still not a real product, they are trying to
have the government force it on everyone.

I am having a hard time understanding how you can say any of this. The
product is being delivered. You simply have to wait in line. The 50
anniversary Corvette had a waiting list and the vehicle has been in
production for 50 years.


It'd be different if it was
a real product with a proven track record..

You know, nothing has a proben track record before it has been used by the
public. If you simply give it time, it will be there.



Ah, but all of those (a) exist, and (b) work.

So have you not seen the site with the saw in the new owners garage? Or the
article on the one that FWW wrote about.
The saw has to exist for these things to happen.

"Rich" wrote in message
...
Can this thread just die? I'm kind of new here but this has gone on for
way to long. There are two camps one that wants to idiot proof something
that has never been idiot proofed before and the other that thinks that it
doesn't need to be idiot proofed (I'm in that group). It seems to be like
arguing religion with someone of a different faith, neither will win!

Just my $.02 worth..

Your are right Rich there are those that that will never change their minds.

If you are tired of seeing this thread or reading this thread, simply ignore
it.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527

Can this thread just die? I'm kind of new here but this has gone on for
way
to long.

Pretty sure that with "outlook express" you can set it to ignore by
thread,
or by sender. Should be a way to ignore any thread with the word
"sawstop"
in the subject: line, for instance.

If that doesn't give you the option, Forte Agent is a damn fine
newsreader for Windows users; there's even a free version.

Dave Hinz

Could kindly post directly under the person that you are responding to and
include his name so that we know who you are talking to? LOL .. Sorry, I
simply could not resist. No hard feelings.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:30:05 GMT, "TBone"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I am not sure about some of what you say. But to answer your
questions.

I want it to continue to protect me if ther power is off, either
because I turned it off, or the supply goes down at 20:00 and I am
standing in the dark with a blade spinning down, my fingers close
enough to be worrisome.

The _point_ of asking what happens when the saw is stopped si that the
thing need not operate then. If it does it would be a little
inconvenient.

What exactly do you want it to do for you? If the saw blade is already not
moving, how can it help you?

No. I said the power was off. See question 2.

If it drops the blade into the table, the
dropping blade can still cut you on the way down and now you get the added
insult of spending $50 to replace the charge for no real help at all.

You lost me.





What happens if the blade is not moving, and you touch it?

Again, what would be the point? Now you would be creating a substantial
increase in the cost of the machine with no real benefit at all.

Exactly. I was asking what happens. This thing appears somewhat
violent, and not neede if the saw is stopped.

No safety
device in the world can protect someone from their own laziness or stupidity
and it really is up to the woodworker to understand what they are working
with and to pay attention and be careful, even when the machine is not
running.

You lost me again. I hope you understand my questions better.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:55:19 -0500, Paul Kierstead
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You are not, indeed; you seem pretty reasonable to me. I am entirely
baffled how people can get their panties in such a knot over the
invention of a tablesaw safety device or -- for that matter -- the fact
the company has been slow getting it to market.

If it were that simple, I agree. But before they had it to market,
they were trying to get it in by law. They also seem to have had it on
the _market_ (asking for forward payment), but not "on the shelves".
That is not the same as being slow to market it.

You would think it was a
massive insult to them or something. What is the deal here? Sheesh, they
must be homicidal about seatbelts. I can't imagine how much they froth
at the mouth about anti-lock brakes, hearing protection or -- god help
us -- eye protection.

Many people _did_ froth about all of those things. 40% or some such
figure of people in the rural areas of Oz who die in accidents are not
wearing seatbelts. Whether this indicates the true power of seatbelts,
or the fact that the the people who do not wear seatbelts are also far
more likely to speed/drink/be silly is in question, of course.

I think the problem is that the seatbelts, and now even ABS do not
significantly (+5%) add to the cost of the vehicle. I do not believe
that a Sawstop can be _fitted_ to a TS for the $50-100 dollars
claimed. I could be wrong. Also, the vehicle makers put them in very
expensive cars, for many years, before they attempted to foist them on
the public by law. I see Sawstop have done just that.

"TBone" wrote in message
True, but if you shut the saw down, then you really need to continue to
pay
attention until it stops because if you shut it off, you are obviously
done
with your cut.

Sure, but reaching for the cutoff has taken many a bite of skin with it. Of
course no matter how much something is idiot proofed, the work will create a
bigger and better idiot.

"ted harris" wrote in message
...
In news:Vic Baron typed:
Let's just let it go and say that you really,really like the SawStop and
I
find it a non essential add-on. Plus I do NOT like the attitude of the
company or it's representatives.

Bye-bye now.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com



go kiss my sawstop bozo

In newsave Hinz typed:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:23:59 -0800, ted harris
wrote:
In newsave Hinz typed:

...from someone other than Sawstop and their shills...

By the vehement tone and implications in your post I would guess that it
must suck to be you.

It's fantastic to be me, Ted, but thanks for asking. I'd love for this
thing to work. Really, I would. But one unit shipped while I still
can't buy one if I wanted to means it's not available, don't you agree?

Do you think that only one unit was shipped? Why don't you quit all the
drama and just accept that the product is being delivered in spite of your
pessimism?
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:44:06 -0600, "Rich"
wrote:

Can this thread just die?

Most news readers can "kill" or "ignore" a thread.

That's what I do when I'm tired of reading a thread.

Barry

In newsave Hinz typed:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:26:15 -0800, AAvK wrote:


I want to see something other than "click here to pre-order" on the
site.


...Then read their FAQ, read how the safety system works and watch the
little movies there. I did.

Yeah, me too...about 4 years ago. It's still not available to order.

Everyone agrees that it took quite some time to deliver. Next...
Who are you blaming that you aren't getting yours right now and over the
next several months, like the other 800 or so that "pre-ordered" the
machine?
Looks to me like you should be blaming yourself for clicking on that button,
IMHO.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com

In newsave Hinz typed:
Seriously, Paul, my problem with them is that it seems to be all show and
no deliver, _and_, while it's still not a real product, they are trying to
have the government force it on everyone. It'd be different if it was
a real product with a proven track record.

Ah, but all of those (a) exist, and (b) work.

Dave Hinz

Sawstop is being delivered. May I suggest that if you don't like the way
sawstop has entered the market, then you don't buy it.
Sir, you have absolutely lost touch with reality. Are you taking
medication?
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com

In news:Vic Baron typed:
Let's just let it go and say that you really,really like the SawStop and I
find it a non essential add-on. Plus I do NOT like the attitude of the
company or it's representatives.

Bye-bye now.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com

In news:Rich typed:
Can this thread just die? I'm kind of new here but this has gone on for
way to long. There are two camps one that wants to idiot proof something
that has never been idiot proofed before and the other that thinks that it
doesn't need to be idiot proofed (I'm in that group). It seems to be like
arguing religion with someone of a different faith, neither will win!

Just my $.02 worth..

Sawstop will not make anything idiot proof. It is simply another safety
device, and well spent money, IMHO. The winners will be the people that
step up to the plate and buy it.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com

So everyone that has an accident is an idiot? Safety features are not
idiot proofing.

I see it as reducing the odds that even a careful person may still have
a very bad accident as a result of moving a bit too fast, being a bit
too tired, being distracted and just the wrong time, etc. All safety
features are an effort to reduce these odds, from back up chutes for
skydivers to inflatable buoyancy devices for scuba divers. This is
prudence, not idiot proofing.

Rich wrote:
Can this thread just die? I'm kind of new here but this has gone on for way
to long. There are two camps one that wants to idiot proof something that
has never been idiot proofed before and the other that thinks that it
doesn't need to be idiot proofed (I'm in that group). It seems to be like
arguing religion with someone of a different faith, neither will win!

Just my $.02 worth..


"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...


Considering in a prior post you mentioned having a second accident

No, I did not say I had a second accident. I stated that I made the same
mistake again. No harm done.


- yes I'm ignorant of the fact that someone could be dumb enough to make
the same

mistake twice. You'd BETTER get the SawStop - sounds like YOU need it,
lefty. Better still - wanna sell your table saw?

You bet I will sell it. It is yours for $2800. U.S It is a 4 year old
Jet cabinet saw, I'll throw in the WWII blade, mobile base and 15 roller
outfeed table.


You missed the point completely, as you have with several of your posts.

What point exactly? I am simply not judging a book by its cover or
playing pile on the under dog.


Let's just let it go and say that you really,really like the SawStop.

That would be your assumption. I really have no reason to like the
SawStop nor any reason not to like it as I have no hands on experience
with it and neither do you I suspect. But I will not damn the product
because of the way it is brought to market. The company is absolutely
working within its rights.

and I

find it a non essential add-on.

Plus I do NOT like the attitude of the

company or it's representatives.

No kidding....

Sheesh!

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"TBone" wrote in message
True, but if you shut the saw down, then you really need to continue to
pay
attention until it stops because if you shut it off, you are obviously
done
with your cut.

Sure, but reaching for the cutoff has taken many a bite of skin with it.
Of course no matter how much something is idiot proofed, the work will
create a bigger and better idiot.


LOL.. Good call Edwin. Seems the SawStop has already shown that this is
true. People are already trying to figure out a way to prove it
ineffective.

On 23 Dec 2004 21:54:53 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

If that doesn't give you the option, Forte Agent is a damn fine
newsreader for Windows users; there's even a free version.

Unfortunately it doesn't allow filtering on message bodies,
something that would be very useful to have.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:37:03 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

The saw always has power, just not always going to the motor. The sensor
could be energised from the live side of the on off switch.

Amazing that you could do this, eh ? :-)

It's ironic that someone who makes a mental mistake
like this insists that others shouldn't make any. A bit
like that junkie talk show guy ...

In news:ted harris typed:
Looks to me like you should be blaming yourself for clicking on that
button, IMHO.

replace "clicking" with not clicking."
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

For those that feel that harm
will never come to them because they always pay close attention, use
proper
tool technique, are way too smart to let an accident happen, or are way
too
careful to let an accident happen, I can only say that given enough time
your time will come.


I agreed with most of what you said in the reply that I snipped this from
Leon, except this part. I believe that most people who don't jump on every
single new thing or practice just because it pretends to be in the name of
safety is less because they place all of their confidence in any of the
points you mentioned, than it is because they feel that these things
outweigh the marginal gain that a particular device or practice might
afford. As to given enough time, everyone's time will come? Well, that's
kind of hard to embrace. It may come, that's for sure. I realize that
everytime I use one of my tools. I think about it when I grab a 4 in
grinder, use a table saw, a welder, or any number of other things. I don't
let it petrify me or drive me to embrace every idea that comes along. I
guess the threat has to seem real enough to me in order to warrant that I
will embrace a particular idea or practice. There are however, thousands
upon thousands of woodworkers who have completed lives of full time or part
time wood working without their time coming. In fact I'd say by far, most
woodworkers have not met their time. It's kind of a fatalist view to
imagine that your time is coming. That would certainly give one cause for
concern on a regular basis.
--

-Mike-

"GregP" wrote in message
...
On 23 Dec 2004 21:54:53 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

If that doesn't give you the option, Forte Agent is a damn fine
newsreader for Windows users; there's even a free version.

Unfortunately it doesn't allow filtering on message bodies,
something that would be very useful to have.

Hey!!! You guys are getting way OT here. Get back to bitchin' about
SawStop. Now. Sheesh...

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
ink.net...


I agreed with most of what you said in the reply that I snipped this from
Leon, except this part. I believe that most people who don't jump on
every
single new thing or practice just because it pretends to be in the name of
safety is less because they place all of their confidence in any of the
points you mentioned, than it is because they feel that these things
outweigh the marginal gain that a particular device or practice might
afford. As to given enough time, everyone's time will come? Well, that's
kind of hard to embrace. It may come, that's for sure. I realize that
everytime I use one of my tools. I think about it when I grab a 4 in
grinder, use a table saw, a welder, or any number of other things. I
don't
let it petrify me or drive me to embrace every idea that comes along. I
guess the threat has to seem real enough to me in order to warrant that I
will embrace a particular idea or practice. There are however, thousands
upon thousands of woodworkers who have completed lives of full time or
part
time wood working without their time coming. In fact I'd say by far, most
woodworkers have not met their time. It's kind of a fatalist view to
imagine that your time is coming. That would certainly give one cause for
concern on a regular basis.

Mike, you certainly a level headed view of the situation but visit an ER or
an occupational emergency clinic and talk to one of the doctors on hand.
Because this is not really sensational, you will seldom hear of the
accidents on the news. After my accident it seems everyone that I talked to
that are in the trades have a story to tell about an accident and more often
than not the accident included a tool with a circular blade. Typically the
hand injuries were with the TS. It was not until I understood the actual
number of injuries involving a TS that I began to believe that it was more a
matter of time over skill. 15 years ago the local ER that I ended up at
gave me some figures to ponder. The ER plastic surgeon that worked on me
indicated that the TS accidents are quite common and he himself probably saw
an injury daily. He estimated at least 1,000 yearly in that location alone.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...


Mike, you certainly a level headed view of the situation

Well, I'll have to do something about that...

but visit an ER or
an occupational emergency clinic and talk to one of the doctors on hand.

In matters like these, I base a lot of what I feel on 12 years of experience
as a Trauma and Cardiac Medic where I attended to all sorts of accidents and
results from stupidity. Not all of what I believe, but it is a factor.
I've taken in traumatic amputations, and all sorts of deep cuts. Most
seemed to have been from circular saws if I remember correctly. The
nastyist were from chain saws. Most of the circular saw accidents I saw
were (again - working from recall here), contractors who got too casual in
the use of their tools, were cut in associating with some form of falling or
losing balance with the tool in hand, or believe it or not - from too much
beer in the cooler. You typically didn't see the later on a real job site,
but it was common enough when the pro was doing some weekend work with the
buddies.

Because this is not really sensational, you will seldom hear of the
accidents on the news. After my accident it seems everyone that I talked
to
that are in the trades have a story to tell about an accident and more
often
than not the accident included a tool with a circular blade. Typically
the
hand injuries were with the TS. It was not until I understood the actual
number of injuries involving a TS that I began to believe that it was more
a
matter of time over skill. 15 years ago the local ER that I ended up at
gave me some figures to ponder. The ER plastic surgeon that worked on me
indicated that the TS accidents are quite common and he himself probably
saw
an injury daily. He estimated at least 1,000 yearly in that location
alone.



An injury a day would nothing short of surprise me. Shock me even. Perhaps
astound me. Ok, so I'm easily moved. Nonetheless, you must live in a
pretty large metro area I would guess, in order to see that type of injury
level. Maybe not - just struck me as a high number.

FWIW, my thoughts on the sawstop concept are kind of mixed. I certainly do
not care for the forced approach they are taking, though the Capitalist in
me can admire it to a degree. The rebel in me is in conflict with that when
I realize it could affect me personally. I'm not really against the design
concept, though I've been around long enough to be wary or big promises,
demos, etc. I am certainly in the "wait and see what it really proves to
be" mode right now. I'd hope they could come up with an alternative design
that is less destructive. I'm really not a big fan of how brutal this thing
is in it's approach. I can see a lot of damage to some pretty good table
saws coming from this type of approach. Maybe not. Time will tell. A lot
of good designs didn't start out as elegant as they evolved to be, and that
could well be the case with this product. I'm interested in seeing what
release 2.7 or 3.14.2.79 brings. The only other real objection I have right
now is that it *seems* (admittedly, I have only taken a couple of token
looks at this thing) that they are heavily leveraging the fears of
woodworkers and gouging pretty good on the prices. As much as I believe in
safety, and in profit, there is no need to take the consumer to the
cleaners. Again - time and production may help that problem.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
nk.net...

An injury a day would nothing short of surprise me. Shock me even.
Perhaps
astound me. Ok, so I'm easily moved. Nonetheless, you must live in a
pretty large metro area I would guess, in order to see that type of injury
level. Maybe not - just struck me as a high number.


Mike, I live in Houston.

"Leon" wrote in message

gave me some figures to ponder. The ER plastic surgeon that worked on me
indicated that the TS accidents are quite common and he himself probably
saw
an injury daily. He estimated at least 1,000 yearly in that location
alone.


One of my BIL's, who is currently an ER physician, refers to woodworking
tools, and the table saw in particular, as "job security".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04