My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a
new garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.
Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that is
OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with the
2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of
Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work
great. I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can
use that or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
m...
I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use that
or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the second
idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

If it is an attached garage, the wood burner (or any solid fuel heater) is
against national fire code. On a detached garage, it is just not a good
idea and still may be against code. Go with the gas, put the scraps in the
fireplace.

Well hello from a fellow Badger!
If you haven't built yet then I recommend radiant floor heat. At least get
the tubes into the concrete and you can add on later to finish. I do the
one, two punch. Radiant floor heat and a small wood stove to burn scraps to
bring the temp up quickly. The woodstove generally only gets lit when the
Packers are playing and the homebrew is flowing. My shop doubles as a local
watering hole for several of my woodworking buds. About Thankgiving I turn
on the radiant for the winter and keep the water temp about 80 degrees which
equates to the concrete being about 50 (ie ambient room temp 55) and just
leave it like that till well past the damp days of spring. I like that
working temp and have absolutley no issues with rusting equipment. I live in
the country so I'm running propane.. last two winters have been really mild
so I have not gone through one refill on a 300 gallon tank I can't give you
much of an idea of annual cost beyond that. Shop floor footprint I'm heating
is 26x32 with 12' ceilings. I also highly recommend having it super
insulated with spray in foam. I have r30 walls and about r60 in the ceiling.
The comfort level is noticeable but if your dealing with neighbors the sound
control from that insulation is excellent.

Knothead

In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Rick" wrote in message
m...
I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use that
or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the second
idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

If it is an attached garage, the wood burner (or any solid fuel heater) is
against national fire code. On a detached garage, it is just not a good
idea and still may be against code. Go with the gas, put the scraps in the
fireplace.



That's not what I recall, but then I guess one of us is wrong. But he
does have a good point. Check the codes before you start planning, this
allows you to avoid "oops" when you go to file the building permit. I
know locally a heated shop/garage would have to be built "the same" as a
house, ie the concrete slab would have to be insulated from the ground,
the walls insulated and drywalled, etc.
Other things to consider, have a wall and door between the shop and
the garage. This will help keep the wood dust off the cars. Also a 24x24
garage is not really a 2.5 car garage.That's the size of my current
garage and two cars, with the storage racks, just fit. As to power, I
would drop at least a 60 amp-220 service, including 220 power for either
heavy woodworking equipment or welders

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Rick" wrote in message
m...
I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use that
or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the second
idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

If it is an attached garage, the wood burner (or any solid fuel heater) is
against national fire code. On a detached garage, it is just not a good
idea and still may be against code. Go with the gas, put the scraps in the
fireplace.



Open flame heat of any kind in a woodworking shop is IMHO, not a good
idea. The right wood dust/air combo can be explosive, as can the vapours
from solvents be hazardous. Code in my area dictates that even a natural
gas heater/furnace must be in a room isolated from the work area. The
air it needs for combustion has to come in from outside.
An friend of mine tried the wood stove. He always ran out of scraps.
He would come by and be eyeing my shipping pallets.
Ask yourself if you will have enough scraps.
Particle board and MDF don't burn very well.
I hope to build a proper shop in the near future. As Knothead suggested,
I hope to be able to afford in- floor heating (under a wooden floor on
top of concrete), water, heated with natural gas, one of those really
cool pulsing mini boilers (switchable to propane). Then hang either
pre-made Delta or shop-made air-circulating filtration unit, which will
also bring the heat down from the ceiling.
My previous shop had forced air, 85000 BTU blowing **** everywhere.
Cleaning filters 3- sometimes 5 times per day. Every time that Bad Boy
would start, my wallet would have a spasm.
Electric heat is clean but costly.
And make sure you have a way to keep up the humidity. Heated winter air
is dryer than a popcorn fart, and will twist your lumber into pretzels.
Besides, air with some moisture feels warmer than it is.

my 2 cents

Rob

"Common sense is not common"
Voltaire

Knothead wrote:
Well hello from a fellow Badger!
If you haven't built yet then I recommend radiant floor heat. At least get
the tubes into the concrete and you can add on later to finish. I do the
one, two punch. Radiant floor heat and a small wood stove to burn scraps to
bring the temp up quickly. The woodstove generally only gets lit when the
Packers are playing and the homebrew is flowing. My shop doubles as a local
watering hole for several of my woodworking buds. About Thankgiving I turn
on the radiant for the winter and keep the water temp about 80 degrees which
equates to the concrete being about 50 (ie ambient room temp 55) and just
leave it like that till well past the damp days of spring. I like that
working temp and have absolutley no issues with rusting equipment. I live in
the country so I'm running propane.. last two winters have been really mild
so I have not gone through one refill on a 300 gallon tank I can't give you
much of an idea of annual cost beyond that. Shop floor footprint I'm heating
is 26x32 with 12' ceilings. I also highly recommend having it super
insulated with spray in foam. I have r30 walls and about r60 in the ceiling.
The comfort level is noticeable but if your dealing with neighbors the sound
control from that insulation is excellent.

Knothead


The replies I have seen have all been very helpful. Thanks a great
much. I like the idea of adding the radiant floor heat but will place
on top of the concrete with a floor over that (standing on concrete can
be hard on the joints and I alreay have bad knees). This is still in
the planning stage with a build date at the earliest being late summer
05. I do plan on heavily insulating the whole building. There will be
a wall separating the garage from the shop with the possibility of
putting a garage door in the middle in case I need extra space for large
projects (SWMBO isn't aware of that plan hehe). The more I think about
it, with dust problems and all, I am leaning more to a regular furnace
placed on the garage side with vents running to the shop side. That way
the dust won't clog up the filters as quickly and both sides can be
heated. As far as electricity, I plan on running min 60 amp with a 220.
I also will be running water and a connection to my home LAN so I can
look up tips and such without having to run to the house (detached
garage in case you didn't get that by now) to look things up. I will
create a dust free box to protect my laptop.

I will hire a contractor to do the slab and shell of the garage and do
the electric, gas, LAN, phone, insulating (min R38), and drywalling myself.

Thanks Again,
Rick

I have in my garage just what the Dr. ordered.

40,000 BTU Gasmac infra red heater. There is no explosion concern =
because the whole thing is a closed circuit gas plasma heater mounted =
about 9 feet above the floor. It warms up whatever is beneath it and =
can get my double car garage from the mid teens to a toasty 70 degrees =
in 10 minutes.=20

I do not know about Wis. but up here any heaters must be at least 18 =
inches off the floor to avoid fume ignition.

Any type of forced air will certainly move your dust all over the place.

If the garage is attached, you will possibly need a fire retarding door =
to the house.

Best bet for hydro is to drop a sub panel in the garage which will =
permit adding circuits as needed. Additionally, this will allow for an =
easy way to add an emergency generator for when the hydro goes out. I =
found this to be just the ticket for me.

--=20

PDQ
--
=20
"Rick" wrote in message =
m...
| My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a=20
| new garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.=20
| Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that =
is=20
| OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with =
the=20
| 2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of=20
| Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work=20
| great. I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can =

| use that or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like =
the=20
| second idea (great way to get rid of scrap).
|=20
| Thanks in advance for the advice.
|=20
| Rick

I would plumb in gas and look at installing a gas heater well above the
floor. One option many use is a second hand, or salvage residential
furnace. These can be bought reasonably from construction salvage
operations, heating contractors or via want-ads. If you have overhead
space, mount the base of the furnace a couple of feet off of the floor -
this gets it above a lot of the fumes that settle. In a smaller garage, you
might not need much in the way of ducting. I purchased a good forced air
furnace several years ago for $25 but most are $100 or more. If you buy it
from a contractor it should be inspected.

Another, higher cost, option is an overhead gas furnace like that seen in a
lot of auto and wood shops. BTW, if you have South exposure don't forget
windows - solar gain is cheap, cheap, cheap.

Might run this past the local fire department but I believe it will be ok.
I agree with others that wood is not your best approach.

Other things to consider, have a wall and door between the shop and
the garage. This will help keep the wood dust off the cars.

I concur; however configure that wall with some big doors (maybe pocket
doors?) so that the car bays can be used for extra in/out feed space for
table saw or other tool. (how often do you really need to rip a 12' board?

As to heat, I think that wood as a sole source of heat is a terrible idea in
Wisconsin. As a suppliment, go for it if codes will allow. You will probably
want to keep the shop at am "decent" ambient temp (40? 50?) in the dead of
winter so that you can go out there and work without waiting too long for
everything to warm up. You can really do that with wood.

I live in Northern NY (same climate). My shop used to be in an unheated
garage. The shop simply shut down at Thanksgiving. At the edges of the
woodworking season it was really unpleasant to work with 35-degree tools.

-Steve

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:17:24 GMT, Rick wrote:

My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a
new garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.
Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that is
OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with the
2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of
Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work
great. I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can
use that or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick
===================================

I play with... and restore... cars as a hobby in addition to creating
a lot of sawdust...

A 24x24 building is honestly barely large enough for 2 cars

That said...

I have 2 garages a 24x40 which I normally do not heat but with 2 4
post lifts so I can park cars on top of one another and a single 2
post lift so I can work on the cars...

The second is a 24x24 2 story building that I have to use to store 2
cars ...so my woodshop is very inconviently on the second floor..(ya
gotta do what ya gotta do)

But I heat that building with a gas furnace (116000 BTU) that my son
converted to propane since I am nowhere close to a natural gas line...

As I type I see the tempature outside is 29 degrees (weather bug) the
thermostat (it is upstairs in the woodshop) in the garage shop is set
at 48 degrees... I know I can walk out ther now and set the temp to 70
and the shop will be heated up to 70 within a half hour..

GO GAS...... I keep a 55 gal drum behind the building for burning
scrap ... I gave up using a woodstove 30 years ago in my shop...
not because it was unsafe (it most likely was) but it took forever to
heat the shop up...but even more problematic I had to worry about the
stove long after I left the shop at night...

Lots of luck...
As another poster noted radiant heat in the floor would be absolutely
great...I spend way too many an evening laying under a car on cold
concrete floor .. And like another poster suggested I would have a
wall either solid or made from a roll down tarp down the center of
your building to seperate the shop from the garage...both for heat and
dust...

Bob Griffiths

Best bet for hydro is to drop a sub panel in the garage which will permit
adding circuits as needed. Additionally, this will allow for an easy way to
add an emergency generator for when the hydro goes out. I found this to be
just the ticket for me.
-
PDQ

Just in case someone thinks PDQ is referring to water:

I checked his headers, PDQ in in Canada (sympatico.ca) Hydro is short
Hydro-Quebec, which is Quebec-speak for "electricity".

Steve

"Ralph E Lindberg" wrote in message news:n7bsn-
If it is an attached garage, the wood burner (or any solid fuel heater)
is
against national fire code. On a detached garage, it is just not a good
idea and still may be against code. Go with the gas, put the scraps in
the
fireplace.



That's not what I recall, but then I guess one of us is wrong.

I now longer have the particulars but you can look it up. NFPA codes coer
it in two sections. Oil, gas, electric can be turned of. Solid fuels can
burnfor a dayor so after they are thought to be "out". Fumes from gasoline
can make the garage go "pooof".

Bob G. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:17:24 GMT, Rick wrote:


My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a
new garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.
Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that is
OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with the
2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of
Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work
great. I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can
use that or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

===================================

I play with... and restore... cars as a hobby in addition to creating
a lot of sawdust...

A 24x24 building is honestly barely large enough for 2 cars

That said...

I have 2 garages a 24x40 which I normally do not heat but with 2 4
post lifts so I can park cars on top of one another and a single 2
post lift so I can work on the cars...

The second is a 24x24 2 story building that I have to use to store 2
cars ...so my woodshop is very inconviently on the second floor..(ya
gotta do what ya gotta do)

But I heat that building with a gas furnace (116000 BTU) that my son
converted to propane since I am nowhere close to a natural gas line...

As I type I see the tempature outside is 29 degrees (weather bug) the
thermostat (it is upstairs in the woodshop) in the garage shop is set
at 48 degrees... I know I can walk out ther now and set the temp to 70
and the shop will be heated up to 70 within a half hour..

GO GAS...... I keep a 55 gal drum behind the building for burning
scrap ... I gave up using a woodstove 30 years ago in my shop...
not because it was unsafe (it most likely was) but it took forever to
heat the shop up...but even more problematic I had to worry about the
stove long after I left the shop at night...

Lots of luck...
As another poster noted radiant heat in the floor would be absolutely
great...I spend way too many an evening laying under a car on cold
concrete floor .. And like another poster suggested I would have a
wall either solid or made from a roll down tarp down the center of
your building to seperate the shop from the garage...both for heat and
dust...

Bob Griffiths



2 garages, nice. Unfortunately, I live within city limits (Waukesha,
WI) and am limited to a max of 20% of my back yard for maximum size. I
currently have a 1 car detached garage which will have to be torn down
to allow for the 24x48 one I want to build. If and when I finally
retire (30 years down the road) I would like to move out to the country
and build a pole barn for a shop, but that is way down the line. As for
the 2 story garage, I thought about that but the city code wont allow a
detached garage be higher than 15'.

After reading the replies, I am going to go with gas and let the kids
burn the scrap in the portable outdoor fireplace when they want to have
campfires. However I do turn pens also so my scraps are going to be
very small when it comes to solid woods.

Rick

Rick wrote:

My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a
new garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.
Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that is
OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with the
2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of
Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work
great. I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can
use that or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

Lots of good advice here and I'll chime in with a hearty "me too!" I
have a 45K BTU Reznor gas heater up high. I have a garage with a 24x15
shop attached on the end. There is a garage door between the garage and
the shop which I keep closed as much as possible in the winter. There
is a fire wall between the shop and the house. The best thing about
heater over stove is that I set the thermostat for about 45dF after I am
through for the day and that keeps stuff from freezing over night. I
reset to about 60dF if I am going to work out there and it stays that
way without further effort.
mahalo,
jo4hn

... but it took forever to heat the shop up...........

Ref my previous post about reclaimed forced air furnaces. I had a forced
air furnace in a small shop years ago. The furnace came from a 1,200 sq ft
house and I was using it in a small 250 sq ft shop. When the blower came
on, the windows literally rattled. It would take the temp from 30 degrees
to 65 degrees in 15 to 20 minutes. Metal things, like table saw tops, etc
stayed cold for a while but the furnace worked well, to say the least.

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:17:24 GMT, Rick calmly
ranted:

My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a
new garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.
Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that is
OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with the
2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of
Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work
great. I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can
use that or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Run gas out there and pick up an old furnace from the local HVAC
places for pennies on the dollar. Wood stoves are for the birds
and neighbors hate them for their smog. With good filtering, the
unit could also be utilized as an air cleaner.

Make sure the ceilings are tall. I have 8-1/2" ceilings and am very
glad for that extra 6 inches when I play with plywood or other large
sheeting and longer boards.

--
"Most Folks Are As Happy As They Make Up Their Minds To Be"
-Abraham Lincoln
-----------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Happy Website Development

"Rick" wrote in message
m...
My wife and I bought a house last year and are planning on building a new
garage. I figure a 24' x 24' size is close to the basic 2.5 car.
Fortunately I am blessed with being married to a wonderful woman that is
OK with the idea of building a garage 2x the above size 48'x24' with the
2nd 24'x24' area to be my shop. I live in the cold winter state of
Wisconsin and am looking for a decent garage heater that would work great.
I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use that or
I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the second idea
(great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick



I'd be kinda skittish about flames where gasoline fumes were present, unless
I had really good fire insurance . . . maybe I'm overly cautious, I dunno .
.. .
-Tock

tock responds:

I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use that or
I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the second idea
(great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick



I'd be kinda skittish about flames where gasoline fumes were present, unless
I had really good fire insurance . . . maybe I'm overly cautious, I dunno .

I agree, in part. I had a fire in the basement last year. I don't give a rat's
ass how good your fire insurance is (mine was excellent), a fire is more than a
slight inconvenience, even when everything is made "just like it was", which it
can't be, of course.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

The replies I have seen have all been very helpful. Thanks a great
much. I like the idea of adding the radiant floor heat but will place
on top of the concrete with a floor over that (standing on concrete
can be hard on the joints and I alreay have bad knees). This is still
in the planning stage with a build date at the earliest being late
summer 05. I do plan on heavily insulating the whole building. There
will be a wall separating the garage from the shop with the
possibility of putting a garage door in the middle in case I need
extra space for large projects (SWMBO isn't aware of that plan hehe).
The more I think about it, with dust problems and all, I am leaning
more to a regular furnace placed on the garage side with vents running
to the shop side. That way the dust won't clog up the filters as
quickly and both sides can be heated.

Thanks Again,
Rick


Rick;

If you put the furnace in the garage and vent warm air to heat the shop
and the garage, the shop air MUST be returned to the furnace. Seems that
the dust that isn't deposited on the filters WILL be deposited on the
cars and the storage items in the garage. More likely you will duct
directly back from the shop to an enclosed furnace. Perhaps you won't
provide any heat to the garage. You will still have the dust returning
from the shop to the furnace filters. (From a heating engineer in my
past life).

Brian

Charlie Self wrote:
tock responds:

I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use
that or
I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea
(great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick



I'd be kinda skittish about flames where gasoline fumes were
present, unless
I had really good fire insurance . . . maybe I'm overly cautious, I
dunno .

I agree, in part. I had a fire in the basement last year. I don't
give a rat's
ass how good your fire insurance is (mine was excellent), a fire is
more than a
slight inconvenience, even when everything is made "just like it
was", which it
can't be, of course.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Sir Winston
Churchill

Charlie,

Do you live in the city or the country? I built a 30 X 50 shop 2 years
ago.
I put in radiant floor heat, but not the wysbro it was electric cable.
It heats offpeak @ 2.7 cents a kilowatt. Plus my rural electric company
gave a 1500.00
rebate on top of that. I installed 2 zones because I use part of the
shop for storing my lawn equip. ect. that way I can set the temp
amywhere I want it. It costs me more to turn on the lights than to heat
the whole place!!!

Hope this helps,

Fordguy



Charlie Self wrote:
tock responds:

I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use
that or
I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the
second idea
(great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick



I'd be kinda skittish about flames where gasoline fumes were
present, unless
I had really good fire insurance . . . maybe I'm overly cautious, I
dunno .

I agree, in part. I had a fire in the basement last year. I don't
give a rat's
ass how good your fire insurance is (mine was excellent), a fire is
more than a
slight inconvenience, even when everything is made "just like it
was", which it
can't be, of course.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Sir Winston
Churchill

sandman wrote:

In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Rick" wrote in message
m...
I am considering running natural gas out to the garage and can use
that
or I was thinking of istalling a woodburning stove. I like the second
idea (great way to get rid of scrap).

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Rick

If it is an attached garage, the wood burner (or any solid fuel heater)
is
against national fire code. On a detached garage, it is just not a good
idea and still may be against code. Go with the gas, put the scraps in
the fireplace.



Open flame heat of any kind in a woodworking shop is IMHO, not a good
idea. The right wood dust/air combo can be explosive,

While this is true, it's difficult to get that particular dust/air ratio
inside your dust collector, let alone in the shop in general. You'd pretty
much have to set out deliberately to do it. A spark popping into a
dustpile on the floor is more likely to be a problem.

as can the vapours
from solvents be hazardous.

A more significant concern.

Code in my area dictates that even a natural
gas heater/furnace must be in a room isolated from the work area. The
air it needs for combustion has to come in from outside.
An friend of mine tried the wood stove. He always ran out of scraps.
He would come by and be eyeing my shipping pallets.
Ask yourself if you will have enough scraps.
Particle board and MDF don't burn very well.
I hope to build a proper shop in the near future. As Knothead suggested,
I hope to be able to afford in- floor heating (under a wooden floor on
top of concrete), water, heated with natural gas, one of those really
cool pulsing mini boilers (switchable to propane). Then hang either
pre-made Delta or shop-made air-circulating filtration unit, which will
also bring the heat down from the ceiling.
My previous shop had forced air, 85000 BTU blowing **** everywhere.
Cleaning filters 3- sometimes 5 times per day. Every time that Bad Boy
would start, my wallet would have a spasm.
Electric heat is clean but costly.
And make sure you have a way to keep up the humidity. Heated winter air
is dryer than a popcorn fart, and will twist your lumber into pretzels.
Besides, air with some moisture feels warmer than it is.

my 2 cents

Rob

"Common sense is not common"
Voltaire

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Rick wrote:

Knothead wrote:
Well hello from a fellow Badger!
If you haven't built yet then I recommend radiant floor heat. At least
get the tubes into the concrete and you can add on later to finish. I do
the one, two punch. Radiant floor heat and a small wood stove to burn
scraps to bring the temp up quickly. The woodstove generally only gets
lit when the Packers are playing and the homebrew is flowing. My shop
doubles as a local watering hole for several of my woodworking buds.
About Thankgiving I turn on the radiant for the winter and keep the water
temp about 80 degrees which equates to the concrete being about 50 (ie
ambient room temp 55) and just leave it like that till well past the damp
days of spring. I like that working temp and have absolutley no issues
with rusting equipment. I live in the country so I'm running propane..
last two winters have been really mild so I have not gone through one
refill on a 300 gallon tank I can't give you much of an idea of annual
cost beyond that. Shop floor footprint I'm heating is 26x32 with 12'
ceilings. I also highly recommend having it super insulated with spray in
foam. I have r30 walls and about r60 in the ceiling. The comfort level is
noticeable but if your dealing with neighbors the sound control from that
insulation is excellent.

Knothead


The replies I have seen have all been very helpful. Thanks a great
much. I like the idea of adding the radiant floor heat but will place
on top of the concrete with a floor over that (standing on concrete can
be hard on the joints and I alreay have bad knees).

Make some kind of access provision if you can figure out a good way to do
it. Friend of mine lives in a very nice house that her father (an
architect) built. Used to have in-floor radiant heat, in the slab. The
pipe broke a while back and it cost less to put in a new warm air system
than it would to fix the leak, so no more in-floor heat.

This is still in
the planning stage with a build date at the earliest being late summer
05. I do plan on heavily insulating the whole building. There will be
a wall separating the garage from the shop with the possibility of
putting a garage door in the middle in case I need extra space for large
projects (SWMBO isn't aware of that plan hehe). The more I think about
it, with dust problems and all, I am leaning more to a regular furnace
placed on the garage side with vents running to the shop side. That way
the dust won't clog up the filters as quickly and both sides can be
heated. As far as electricity, I plan on running min 60 amp with a 220.
I also will be running water and a connection to my home LAN so I can
look up tips and such without having to run to the house (detached
garage in case you didn't get that by now) to look things up. I will
create a dust free box to protect my laptop.

I will hire a contractor to do the slab and shell of the garage and do
the electric, gas, LAN, phone, insulating (min R38), and drywalling
myself.

Thanks Again,
Rick

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

fordguy writes:


Do you live in the city or the country? I built a 30 X 50 shop 2 years
ago.
I put in radiant floor heat,

I lived in the city when I had the fire, back in the country now. We built a 25
x 48 shop here about 6 years ago. If I ever get the thermostat hooked up
(tomorrow? But I've been saying that for 3 years), I'll have an overhead
electric furnace on-line and working. Right now, I'm using infrared propane,
45,000 Btus. Radiant floor heat would have been nice, but I built that shop
myself for less than 11 grand, so it wasn't in the picture. My current heating
set-up cost me the price of a 60 amp breaker and some #6 cable, cheap
thermostat, and a bit of metal work. I don't really know what the KW cost is
here, but I promise, it's not 2.7 cents. More like 9, at a guess, plus fuel
adjustments that will knock your panties into a knot.

I've got propane heat in the house and very much regret changing from oil. The
first year the heat pump/propane was in place, my combined electrical and
propane bill was more than double the preceding (cooler) year's costs. You save
on furnace cleanings. You get screwed on the cost of the fuel which has been on
an apparent near perpetual up-tick, at least around central VA, for several
years now. I expect my heating bill this year to be about three and one half
times what it was four years ago.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:32:43 -0500, Bob G.
calmly ranted:

But I heat that building with a gas furnace (116000 BTU) that my son
converted to propane since I am nowhere close to a natural gas line...

Man, heavy-duty warming unit, eh?


As I type I see the tempature outside is 29 degrees (weather bug) the
thermostat (it is upstairs in the woodshop) in the garage shop is set
at 48 degrees... I know I can walk out ther now and set the temp to 70
and the shop will be heated up to 70 within a half hour..

Great!


GO GAS...... I keep a 55 gal drum behind the building for burning
scrap ... I gave up using a woodstove 30 years ago in my shop...
not because it was unsafe (it most likely was) but it took forever to
heat the shop up...but even more problematic I had to worry about the
stove long after I left the shop at night...

And you had to put up with the smoke, cleanings, fire tending, etc.
They're a lot of hassle and the warmth goes from chilly to melting
you in a period of 15 minutes. No fires for me any more except on
a campout or beach where ladies are present. They love 'em.


Lots of luck...
As another poster noted radiant heat in the floor would be absolutely
great...I spend way too many an evening laying under a car on cold
concrete floor .. And like another poster suggested I would have a

I've been using creepers since I was 18 and won't crawl around on the
ground again if there is -any- other choice. On gravel, one makes do
sometimes, but not on concrete or pavement. I'm on wheels every time.


wall either solid or made from a roll down tarp down the center of
your building to seperate the shop from the garage...both for heat and
dust...

No, I'd opt for a solid, insulated wall and a wide door separating the
wood half from the gasoline half. I don't want gas and oil fumes
stinking up my shop or the wood stored there, TYVM. Uh, uh!

One guy mentioned having to change filters several times a day, and
I bet
1) he didn't have a dust collector (or no .3u filters if so)
and
2) he used a -sander- a whole lot

if he had that much maintenance trouble.

--
"Most Folks Are As Happy As They Make Up Their Minds To Be"
-Abraham Lincoln
-----------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Happy Website Development

Thu, Dec 16, 2004, 5:17am (EST+5) (Rick)
My wife and I bought a house snip OK with the idea of building a
garage 2x the above size 48'x24' snip

Sounds good, but you're using the wrong math. Figure 2X the size
as 48"X48".



JOAT
Ask any question you please of the Gods. They do not have to answer.
- Ko'a Orto'o, Gnomic Utterances, II xvi

I don't really know what the KW cost is
here, but I promise, it's not 2.7 cents. More like 9, at a guess, plus
fuel
adjustments that will knock your panties into a knot.

I hear ya. It's closer to 11 in my neck of the woods.

I've got propane heat in the house and very much regret changing from oil.
The
first year the heat pump/propane was in place, my combined electrical and
propane bill was more than double the preceding (cooler) year's costs. You
save
on furnace cleanings. You get screwed on the cost of the fuel which has
been on
an apparent near perpetual up-tick, at least around central VA, for
several
years now. I expect my heating bill this year to be about three and one
half
times what it was four years ago.

Ouch. I feel your pain. I switched from Oil to NG a few years ago. For me, I
think It was a wash, but it's so hard to tell. I suspect my home heating
costs are close to doubling over the course of a decade with minimal
inflation.


About 8 years ago, I remember buying fuel oil at 70 cents a gallon. I hear
it's close to $2 now. The oil and NG costomer are taking it in the shorts
too.

If it helps, you have company.

-Steve

Stephen M. responds:

been on
an apparent near perpetual up-tick, at least around central VA, for
several
years now. I expect my heating bill this year to be about three and one
half
times what it was four years ago.

Ouch. I feel your pain. I switched from Oil to NG a few years ago. For me, I
think It was a wash, but it's so hard to tell. I suspect my home heating
costs are close to doubling over the course of a decade with minimal
inflation.


About 8 years ago, I remember buying fuel oil at 70 cents a gallon. I hear
it's close to $2 now. The oil and NG costomer are taking it in the shorts
too.

If it helps, you have company.

It doesn't really help. This upward sprint for prices of everything related to
oil production is sooner or later going to have to affect the entire economy.
It's not just transport and heat. Most of today's plastics--vinyl, Styrofoam,
etc.--are based on oil, so construction costs have to rise to absorb that cost
rise, as eventually do the prices of toys with cases and other parts formed of
plastic, whether those toys be a cordless drill or an X box.

Currently, we've got our heat pump set high enough that the gas furnace only
kicks on when it gets below 30 degs. F., here.

One distinct saving with gas: the furnace does not need cleaning and new needle
valves every year, a service that had risen from about $50 17 years ago to over
$100 a few years ago.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

On 17 Dec 2004 15:04:23 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:
[snip]

Currently, we've got our heat pump set high enough that the gas furnace only
kicks on when it gets below 30 degs. F., here.

Thats interesting Charlie, up here in cold Minnesota heat pumps
usually switch off at about 10 degrees F . I'm fortunate enough to be
on a load shed plan from the power company and pay about 3 cents per
kwh for the heat pump. Never been shed in the winter that I'm aware
of. Maybe the efficiencies balance out different with your higher
power cost. Also have propane for alternate fuel.

--
John, in Minnesota

John, in MN writes:

Currently, we've got our heat pump set high enough that the gas furnace only
kicks on when it gets below 30 degs. F., here.

Thats interesting Charlie, up here in cold Minnesota heat pumps
usually switch off at about 10 degrees F . I'm fortunate enough to be
on a load shed plan from the power company and pay about 3 cents per
kwh for the heat pump. Never been shed in the winter that I'm aware
of. Maybe the efficiencies balance out different with your higher
power cost. Also have propane for alternate fuel

And maybe I'm getting screwed. Hard to tell. I was told that when the air is
much below freezing, heat pump efficiency drops dramatically. I'll have to dig
out some information on the thing, as we seldom get down to 10 degrees here, so
a setting of, say, 20 or so if it is reasonably efficient, might prove a money
saver when the guy in the rolling propane bottle pops down the drive.

We're supposed to have a guy coming out to check it fairly soon, so I'll ask
him to show me how to re-set the temp and then I can test it.



Charlie Self
"Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power." Eric Hoffer

My Father in Law had a ground water heat pump installed on his farm.
It extracts its heat from ground water which is supposedly at 55
degrees year round. It was efficient but you had to return the water
you extracted some distance away from the source to prevent the
gradual lowering of the temp from your source. Not much of a problem
if you have the land but a pretty big one if you don't.


On 18 Dec 2004 10:57:16 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

John, in MN writes:

Currently, we've got our heat pump set high enough that the gas furnace only
kicks on when it gets below 30 degs. F., here.

Thats interesting Charlie, up here in cold Minnesota heat pumps
usually switch off at about 10 degrees F . I'm fortunate enough to be
on a load shed plan from the power company and pay about 3 cents per
kwh for the heat pump. Never been shed in the winter that I'm aware
of. Maybe the efficiencies balance out different with your higher
power cost. Also have propane for alternate fuel

And maybe I'm getting screwed. Hard to tell. I was told that when the air is
much below freezing, heat pump efficiency drops dramatically. I'll have to dig
out some information on the thing, as we seldom get down to 10 degrees here, so
a setting of, say, 20 or so if it is reasonably efficient, might prove a money
saver when the guy in the rolling propane bottle pops down the drive.

We're supposed to have a guy coming out to check it fairly soon, so I'll ask
him to show me how to re-set the temp and then I can test it.



Charlie Self
"Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power." Eric Hoffer

On 18 Dec 2004 10:57:16 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:
[snip]

And maybe I'm getting screwed. Hard to tell. I was told that when the air is
much below freezing, heat pump efficiency drops dramatically. I'll have to dig
out some information on the thing, as we seldom get down to 10 degrees here, so
a setting of, say, 20 or so if it is reasonably efficient, might prove a money
saver when the guy in the rolling propane bottle pops down the drive.

Charlie, I did a temp plot last night of the heat pump. It started to
lose ground at about 10 deg. About 30 minutes later it switched over
to the propane furnace. We had 9 below last night. At 20 degrees
your pump should be happy. The manual for mine specs down to 0 for
outside operating temp. Also the measured power on ours is about
2200 watts. So it only costs about 7 cents per hour of run time.
--
John, in Minnesota

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:50:57 -0600, "John, in MN"
wrote:

On 18 Dec 2004 10:57:16 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:
[snip]

And maybe I'm getting screwed. Hard to tell. I was told that when the air is
much below freezing, heat pump efficiency drops dramatically. I'll have to dig
out some information on the thing, as we seldom get down to 10 degrees here, so
a setting of, say, 20 or so if it is reasonably efficient, might prove a money
saver when the guy in the rolling propane bottle pops down the drive.

IF I only had more ground water.... lol...

If I did I would sink 2 wells and install a water to air heat pump ,
pulling water out of one well then putting it back in teh other...

Ground water her in Mid to Western Maryland is a constant 55 degrees
year round... just about the perfect difference from the desired room
tempature...

Got to be some reason Water to Air heat pumps are not the "thing"...

Oh well... house is total electric baseboard heat.... see the meter
spin!...Shop is heated with a Propane furnace... watch the guade drop
....
Bob

Greg O wrote:

"Bob G." wrote in message
...

Got to be some reason Water to Air heat pumps are not the "thing"...



I think it has something to do with the ~$20,000 it takes to install one!
Greg

That's quite high (for a closed loop system, anyway)...there was about a
$5k premium over a similarly efficient air/air heat pump which can be
hidden somewhat if the excating is all done when the house excation is
done rather than completely separately last I looked...

"Bob G." wrote in message
...

Got to be some reason Water to Air heat pumps are not the "thing"...



I think it has something to do with the ~$20,000 it takes to install one!
Greg

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Greg O wrote:

"Bob G." wrote in message
...

Got to be some reason Water to Air heat pumps are not the "thing"...



I think it has something to do with the ~$20,000 it takes to install
one!
Greg

That's quite high (for a closed loop system, anyway)...there was about a
$5k premium over a similarly efficient air/air heat pump which can be
hidden somewhat if the excating is all done when the house excation is
done rather than completely separately last I looked...

A loop system perhaps, but drill a couple wells!
Greg

John, in MN responds:

And maybe I'm getting screwed. Hard to tell. I was told that when the air is
much below freezing, heat pump efficiency drops dramatically. I'll have to
dig
out some information on the thing, as we seldom get down to 10 degrees here,
so
a setting of, say, 20 or so if it is reasonably efficient, might prove a
money
saver when the guy in the rolling propane bottle pops down the drive.

Charlie, I did a temp plot last night of the heat pump. It started to
lose ground at about 10 deg. About 30 minutes later it switched over
to the propane furnace. We had 9 below last night. At 20 degrees
your pump should be happy. The manual for mine specs down to 0 for
outside operating temp. Also the measured power on ours is about
2200 watts. So it only costs about 7 cents per hour of run time.

Eeeeeeeeeee! Nine below? Just think, I moved down here as a geographic cure for
a marriage that had failed, and escaped that kind of weather, too. It did hit
five below here...IIRC, in 1985.

Thanks. I'll have the guy who's coming check the settings--and show me how to
recheck and reset--and I'll also make sure he gives the whole shooting match a
good going over. It has been in just over three years, so I don't foresee big
problems for another four or five.

I don't even know if we GOT a manual with this thing. I'll check around the
washing machine area (basement appliance manual files).

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

Greg O wrote:

....
A loop system perhaps, but drill a couple wells!
Greg

Yes, but the wells aren't a necessity was my point...

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:55:06 -0500, Ron wrote:

My Father in Law had a ground water heat pump installed on his farm.
It extracts its heat from ground water which is supposedly at 55
degrees year round. It was efficient but you had to return the water
you extracted some distance away from the source to prevent the
gradual lowering of the temp from your source. Not much of a problem
if you have the land but a pretty big one if you don't.


If it's a heat pump system, couldn't you also rig it to lower
air conditioning costs in the summer ?

GregP asks:

My Father in Law had a ground water heat pump installed on his farm.
It extracts its heat from ground water which is supposedly at 55
degrees year round. It was efficient but you had to return the water
you extracted some distance away from the source to prevent the
gradual lowering of the temp from your source. Not much of a problem
if you have the land but a pretty big one if you don't.


If it's a heat pump system, couldn't you also rig it to lower
air conditioning costs in the summer

Naturally.

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer