A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

Searcher wrote:
A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my
yard with my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my
siter in law was close to my son when from around the garage came a
pit bull at full charge. After my siter in law grabbed up my son the
dog took off after another couple walking thier dog, it was then
that I retrieved my .44 with every intention of dispatching that
animal. The dog was still roaming as I was cleaning up our garden
tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after another person
walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not seen
that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

Did you call police? Someone is going to have to deal with that dog.

Josie

From your story, it sounds like the dog did not attack anyone. I understand
being prepared to defend yourself and others, but if it were my dog
(unlikely since I keep mine inside always) and you killed him just because
you thought that he was a danger, it would be you that "would have been
hauled off in a bag!"
A dog, like anyone else, doesn't deserve to be shot for what he MIGHT do!



"Searcher" wrote in message
news:wIo7d.434$pw4.78@trnddc01...
A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full
charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

I see what you mean, But from my point of view (at the time) that dog was
making a bee line at my child. When the dog was coming at him I did not have
my gun. I think that if that other couple had not been there, the dogs
attention would have still been on my son. My child was ushered into the
house while I finished cleaning up. I had the gun for my protection at that
point. I most certainly would not have shot the dog just for coming near my
yard, it would have to have been showing aggression toward me.

Searcher1

"Joseph Connors" wrote in message
...
From your story, it sounds like the dog did not attack anyone. I
understand
being prepared to defend yourself and others, but if it were my dog
(unlikely since I keep mine inside always) and you killed him just because
you thought that he was a danger, it would be you that "would have been
hauled off in a bag!"
A dog, like anyone else, doesn't deserve to be shot for what he MIGHT do!



"Searcher" wrote in message
news:wIo7d.434$pw4.78@trnddc01...
A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard
with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full
charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off
after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have
not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

I see what you mean, But from my point of view (at the time) that dog was
making a bee line at my child. When the dog was coming at him I did not have
my gun. I think that if that other couple had not been there, the dogs
attention would have still been on my son. My child was ushered into the
house while I finished cleaning up. I had the gun for my protection at that
point. I most certainly would not have shot the dog just for coming near my
yard, it would have to have been showing aggression toward me.


I don't blame you for the way you feel. At all. But, "build a picket fence time"?
Alex

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:51:08 GMT, "Searcher"
wrote:

A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

I love dogs, but those pit-bulls are nasty creatures. I never
understood why the people who own them seem to like to let them roam
around loose all the time.

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 23:00:41 -0400, "firstjois"
wrote:

Searcher wrote:
A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my
yard with my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my
siter in law was close to my son when from around the garage came a
pit bull at full charge. After my siter in law grabbed up my son the
dog took off after another couple walking thier dog, it was then
that I retrieved my .44 with every intention of dispatching that
animal. The dog was still roaming as I was cleaning up our garden
tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after another person
walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not seen
that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

Did you call police? Someone is going to have to deal with that dog.

It might be different where you are, but I had a neighbor about three
years ago who had a pit-bull that they allowed to run free in the
area. The thing actually had the gall to come right into my garage
where I was working and start growling at me, until I ran the thing
out with a shovel and got the door closed. There were numerous
occasions like that, and the dog was always agressive. But when I
called Animal control and the local PD, they said they couldn't do
anything about it because it hadn't actually bit anyone yet.

The sad thing is- if a pit bull bites, it often needs to be killed to
make it release it's grip, and they do huge amounts of physical damage
to the person being bit, sometimes killing the person they attack.
Waiting until they bite someone seems like a bad policy decision, IMO!

Prometheus wrote:
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 23:00:41 -0400, "firstjois"
wrote:

Searcher wrote:
A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my
yard with my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my
siter in law was close to my son when from around the garage came
a pit bull at full charge. After my siter in law grabbed up my
son the dog took off after another couple walking thier dog, it
was then that I retrieved my .44 with every intention of
dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take
off after another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and
went in. I have not seen that dog before or again. But if that
dog had come near my yard it would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

Did you call police? Someone is going to have to deal with that
dog.

It might be different where you are, but I had a neighbor about three
years ago who had a pit-bull that they allowed to run free in the
area. The thing actually had the gall to come right into my garage
where I was working and start growling at me, until I ran the thing
out with a shovel and got the door closed. There were numerous
occasions like that, and the dog was always agressive. But when I
called Animal control and the local PD, they said they couldn't do
anything about it because it hadn't actually bit anyone yet.

The sad thing is- if a pit bull bites, it often needs to be killed to
make it release it's grip, and they do huge amounts of physical
damage to the person being bit, sometimes killing the person they
attack. Waiting until they bite someone seems like a bad policy
decision, IMO!

Too bad! I'm in Virginia where there are leash laws for both dogs and if
you would please believe it - cats. I can call animal control and have a
dog picked up, most of the time I just call the owners and let them know
"The dog is out, again." and they are happy to come and collect them. I
have a 42" high fence and have seen German Shepherds jump over and small
dogs crawl under.

I'm surprised that the dog didn't charge you daughter-in-law when she
picked up the child. Somehow dogs and children in adult's arms seem to
encourage aggressive dogs.

Anyway, waiting for the bite is a horrible policy!

Josie

Joseph Connors wrote:
From your story, it sounds like the dog did not attack anyone. I understand
being prepared to defend yourself and others, but if it were my dog
(unlikely since I keep mine inside always) and you killed him just because
you thought that he was a danger, it would be you that "would have been
hauled off in a bag!"
A dog, like anyone else, doesn't deserve to be shot for what he MIGHT do!


If an aggressive pit bull comes charging at me, I'm not going to feel bad about
killing it. If you own one, you have a responsibility to keep it safe. That
does not include allowing it to run free.

I will defend myself... against man or beast... if I have to. Somebody else can
wait to be chewed up. I won't.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Prometheus wrote in
news
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:51:08 GMT, "Searcher"
wrote:

A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard
with my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in
law was close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at
full charge. After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off
after another couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved
my .44 with every intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was
still roaming as I was cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I
saw the dog take off after another person walking his dog. I kept
cleaning up and went in. I have not seen that dog before or again. But
if that dog had come near my yard it would have been hauled off in a
bag!

I love dogs, but those pit-bulls are nasty creatures. I never
understood why the people who own them seem to like to let them roam
around loose all the time.


The owners who don't train them properly and let them run loose are the
nasty creatures. The dogs are dogs and every dog is a bite threat.

Shoot the owners!

Josie responds:


Too bad! I'm in Virginia where there are leash laws for both dogs and if
you would please believe it - cats. I can call animal control and have a
dog picked up,

In some areas. There is NO leash law in Bedford County.

Anyway, waiting for the bite is a horrible policy!

I don't have kids to worry about, but I do have a small dog. Any dog that
attacks me, my wife, my dog, or behaves, in my judgment, with excessive
aggression is apt to become detached from its head via machete. The law doesn't
like it, but we're not getting torn up to improve the mood of a Commonwealth's
Attorney (DA in less pretentious areas).

Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

We look forward to tomorrow's installment.

UA100

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:51:22 -0500, Unisaw A100
wrote:

We look forward to tomorrow's installment.

UA100

It's time to call up BARK (Brotherhood of All Restaurants Korean) and
petition them to look into this situation.

We had a similar problem with marauding felines and made one phone
call to CAT (Chinese-Asian-Thai restaurant group).

They sent out a SWAT (Small Wild Animals Tasty) Team and we haven't
heard so much as a meow in months.

(If there is anyone who has not been offended by this post, please
forward your name and ethnicity via email, and an every attempt will
be made to insult you personally.)



):- )




Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:25:02 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
calmly ranted:

Joseph Connors wrote:
From your story, it sounds like the dog did not attack anyone. I understand
being prepared to defend yourself and others, but if it were my dog
(unlikely since I keep mine inside always) and you killed him just because
you thought that he was a danger, it would be you that "would have been
hauled off in a bag!"
A dog, like anyone else, doesn't deserve to be shot for what he MIGHT do!


If an aggressive pit bull comes charging at me, I'm not going to feel bad about
killing it. If you own one, you have a responsibility to keep it safe. That
does not include allowing it to run free.

I will defend myself... against man or beast... if I have to. Somebody else can
wait to be chewed up. I won't.

Amen to that. I'm not sure which is more aggressive, loose dog owners
or their loose dogs. I'll tolerate neither in my yard, TYVM.


----------------------------------------------------------------
* OPERA: A Latin word * Wondrous Website Design
* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 08:12:30 -0400, Tom Watson
calmly ranted:

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:51:22 -0500, Unisaw A100
wrote:

We look forward to tomorrow's installment.

UA100

It's time to call up BARK (Brotherhood of All Restaurants Korean) and
petition them to look into this situation.

We had a similar problem with marauding felines and made one phone
call to CAT (Chinese-Asian-Thai restaurant group).

They sent out a SWAT (Small Wild Animals Tasty) Team and we haven't
heard so much as a meow in months.

(If there is anyone who has not been offended by this post, please
forward your name and ethnicity via email, and an every attempt will
be made to insult you personally.)

):- )

Bwahahahaha! Excellent, Tom. Well done.

LJ
President CARDO (Citizens Against Rabid Dog Owners)



----------------------------------------------------------------
* OPERA: A Latin word * Wondrous Website Design
* meaning * Save your Heirloom Photos
* "death by music" * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------

"Prometheus" wrote in message

The sad thing is- if a pit bull bites, it often needs to be killed to
make it release it's grip, and they do huge amounts of physical damage
to the person being bit, sometimes killing the person they attack.
Waiting until they bite someone seems like a bad policy decision, IMO!

I was raised in the country, where your dog on my land was *my* dog, subject
to whatever penalties I felt like imposing for his trespass .... and in the
case of harming my livestock or property, that was usually being shot
forthwith.

I had my right hand completely bitten through by a pit bull some years back
when rescuing a three year old boy who had somehow gotten into the middle of
the pit bull's fight with a German shepherd. Once the pit bull grabbed my
hand the dog fight was over, but damn if he didn't bite me on the other hand
during the next few minutes of me struggling to get my right hand from those
jaws (around here, they typically grab them by the balls to make them open
their mouths, but I didn't have enough hands left to try that).

I am generally of a live and let live philosophy on most issues, but to me
there is no reason a sane individual would own one of these dogs,
particularly in an urban environment. They are anti-social assault weapons,
and no other animal, child, or human is ultimately safe around one, except
for the owner.

To let one run loose in an urban situation, even accidentally, is akin to
assault with a deadly weapon and should be treated as such.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:18:37 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


Once the pit bull grabbed my
hand the dog fight was over, but damn if he didn't bite me on the other hand
during the next few minutes of me struggling to get my right hand from those
jaws (around here, they typically grab them by the balls to make them open
their mouths, but I didn't have enough hands left to try that).

Prairie Oysters?



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:18:37 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


Once the pit bull grabbed my
hand the dog fight was over, but damn if he didn't bite me on the other
hand
during the next few minutes of me struggling to get my right hand from
those
jaws (around here, they typically grab them by the balls to make them
open
their mouths, but I didn't have enough hands left to try that).

Prairie Oysters?

More like 'Hood Oysters these days.

Still cleaning the monitor re your BARK, CAT and SWAT ... along that same
line see the following thread earlier this year:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...m %26rnum%3D1

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

To make the bald statement that "...those pit-bulls are nasty creatures..."
is wrong.

However, I can sympathize with this view having once lived in Denver for
several years. Now Colorado is a wonderful place, but one that attracts some
unique "individuals" who live in the country for good reason--they don't
belong around people. This type, along with drug dealers and gang lords,
fancy having the meanest creatures around. A pit bull is an awesome, and
beautiful, physical specimens that, along with many breeds, can be made into
deadly weapons (If you have the stomach you might do a little reaserch to
find out what this takes). The upshot of this is that several of these
individuals owned pit bulls that were trained to be aggressive, let to run
free, and did some horrendous things to people, including children. The
Denver newspapers played the horror up to the hilt, underplaying the less
interesting fact that irresponsible oweners, and breeders, are responsible.
Denver then enacted a law that banned the breed. In my ignorance I agreed
with the law at the time. (Colorado has very recently passed a law making it
illegal to ban dogs based on breed alone, and Denver is fighting it. )

Several years after leaving CO for the Chicago suburbs, my adult daughter
was living with us and fell in love with a dog at a local humane society. It
was a pitt bull. Crunch time. I began a program to educate myself on the
breed. The library and the internet turned up a number of very enlighening
articles that made me open to the idea. The clincher was a neighbor who owns
a large, well known dog training school. She, an owner of three golden
retrievers, proclaimed that pit bulls were among her favorite dogs, and make
wonderful pets.

We adoped Mo. By the time my daughter moved out we decided that we could not
be without a dog. We now have two pit bulls. The first was bought from a
breeder and the second was rescued (a Chicago cop "took " her from a drug
dealer as a young puppy). Our dogs have been trained, loved, walked daily,
and in five years have never bitten any person, any other animal, or our
cats. We aren't unique in having great pit bulls. Most of them are cherished
family pets, and they have served our country in war, and have been owned by
individuals such as Helen Keller and Theodore Roosevelt.

It is smart to be cautious about any dog. Large, athletic breeds especially
can do damage if they have been trained to do so. The most popular breeds
tend to be overbred and thereby create some nasty animals. Remember Cocker
Spaniels of 10-20 years ago, and now, I fear, Labs are suffering from this.
But do advocate responsible ownership and don't make the mistake of
condeming a dog based on breed alone.

Now the original poster, apparently distraught at not being able to use his
".44" in what is apparently a suburban neighborhood, unwittingly presents an
argument for gun control. But that's another OT for this group.

Jay


"Prometheus" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:51:08 GMT, "Searcher"
wrote:

A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full
charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

I love dogs, but those pit-bulls are nasty creatures. I never
understood why the people who own them seem to like to let them roam
around loose all the time.

The most popular breeds
tend to be overbred and thereby create some nasty animals.

Truer words were never spoken. Bad dogs are caused by bad breeders ans bad
owners.

First of all I do not live in a suburban setting, second I maintain a
legally recieved license to carry a firearm. If this (or any other animal
for that matter) was an imediate threat to myself or my child it would have
been shot post haste. As far as a gun control issue, I have NO problem
controlling my weapon. I believe that Pittbulls are notoriously used as
weapons against police and other persons. They have a deep seated instinct
to kill, and this instinct can be buried within the dogs mind but never
removed.

How can I as a parent allow my child to play in his own yard with a
dangerous animal running loose? I can't, so why should I keep my child
locked up in a house while this dog runs loose? Dig deeper into the internet
and you will find that "faithfull" dogs have turned on thier owners in the
middle of the night for no apparent reason.
By the way I am a dog owner, a pure bred Yellow lab, so this is not about
dogs. It is about the safety of my child.

Searcher1

"Jay Knepper" wrote in message
...
To make the bald statement that "...those pit-bulls are nasty
creatures..." is wrong.

However, I can sympathize with this view having once lived in Denver for
several years. Now Colorado is a wonderful place, but one that attracts
some unique "individuals" who live in the country for good reason--they
don't belong around people. This type, along with drug dealers and gang
lords, fancy having the meanest creatures around. A pit bull is an
awesome, and beautiful, physical specimens that, along with many breeds,
can be made into deadly weapons (If you have the stomach you might do a
little reaserch to find out what this takes). The upshot of this is that
several of these individuals owned pit bulls that were trained to be
aggressive, let to run free, and did some horrendous things to people,
including children. The Denver newspapers played the horror up to the
hilt, underplaying the less interesting fact that irresponsible oweners,
and breeders, are responsible. Denver then enacted a law that banned the
breed. In my ignorance I agreed with the law at the time. (Colorado has
very recently passed a law making it illegal to ban dogs based on breed
alone, and Denver is fighting it. )

Several years after leaving CO for the Chicago suburbs, my adult daughter
was living with us and fell in love with a dog at a local humane society.
It was a pitt bull. Crunch time. I began a program to educate myself on
the breed. The library and the internet turned up a number of very
enlighening articles that made me open to the idea. The clincher was a
neighbor who owns a large, well known dog training school. She, an owner
of three golden retrievers, proclaimed that pit bulls were among her
favorite dogs, and make wonderful pets.

We adoped Mo. By the time my daughter moved out we decided that we could
not be without a dog. We now have two pit bulls. The first was bought from
a breeder and the second was rescued (a Chicago cop "took " her from a
drug dealer as a young puppy). Our dogs have been trained, loved, walked
daily, and in five years have never bitten any person, any other animal,
or our cats. We aren't unique in having great pit bulls. Most of them are
cherished family pets, and they have served our country in war, and have
been owned by individuals such as Helen Keller and Theodore Roosevelt.

It is smart to be cautious about any dog. Large, athletic breeds
especially can do damage if they have been trained to do so. The most
popular breeds tend to be overbred and thereby create some nasty animals.
Remember Cocker Spaniels of 10-20 years ago, and now, I fear, Labs are
suffering from this. But do advocate responsible ownership and don't make
the mistake of condeming a dog based on breed alone.

Now the original poster, apparently distraught at not being able to use
his ".44" in what is apparently a suburban neighborhood, unwittingly
presents an argument for gun control. But that's another OT for this
group.

Jay


"Prometheus" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:51:08 GMT, "Searcher"
wrote:

A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard
with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full
charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off
after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have
not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

I love dogs, but those pit-bulls are nasty creatures. I never
understood why the people who own them seem to like to let them roam
around loose all the time.

In article , (Greg) wrote:
The most popular breeds
tend to be overbred and thereby create some nasty animals.

Truer words were never spoken. Bad dogs are caused by bad breeders ans bad
owners.

Up to a point, yes. The fact still remains that some breeds are much more
easily made into bad dogs than others. You'd have to work at it a *lot* harder
to make an attack dog out of a golden retriever, than out of a pit bull.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"Jay Knepper" wrote in message
...

snip

Several years after leaving CO for the Chicago suburbs, my adult daughter
was living with us and fell in love with a dog at a local humane society.
It was a pitt bull. Crunch time. I began a program to educate myself on
the breed. The library and the internet turned up a number of very
enlighening articles that made me open to the idea. The clincher was a
neighbor who owns a large, well known dog training school. She, an owner
of three golden retrievers, proclaimed that pit bulls were among her
favorite dogs, and make wonderful pets.

We adoped Mo. By the time my daughter moved out we decided that we could
not be without a dog. We now have two pit bulls. The first was bought from
a breeder and the second was rescued (a Chicago cop "took " her from a
drug dealer as a young puppy). Our dogs have been trained, loved, walked
daily, and in five years have never bitten any person, any other animal,
or our cats. We aren't unique in having great pit bulls. Most of them are
cherished family pets, and they have served our country in war, and have
been owned by individuals such as Helen Keller and Theodore Roosevelt.


We've been dog owners for a good number of years. Our first dogs were
Bernese Mountain Dogs, both of whom have sadly passed away, and now we
have a 14 month old Leonberger name Murphy. Our dogs go on three long
walks a day, at least one of which is usually a woods ramble or an
adventure to a dog park. Unfortunately we don't go to dog parks anymore
since our dogs have been attacked too many times, and I've gotten bitten
pulling other people's dogs off of mine. Our dogs have been attacked by
golden retrievers and akitas, but the biggest offenders have been german
shepherds, rottweilers and pit bulls.

A pit bull made the scariest attack. He charged Murphy from 100 yards
away and lunged for his throat. Luckily, the pit was wearing a muzzle.
Nonetheless, he keep lunging and doing what he could to get at Murphy.
The raging noises the pit bull made were unbelievable. During the
roughly 5 minutes that it took the owners to get a hold of their dog,
they spent the first minutes just watching, the muzzle almost slipped
off. If that had happened, Murphy would be dead, and then either I or
the pit bull would also have been no more. I could grab Murphy, but that
just made him a stationary target.

People with aggressive dogs should never put that dog in a situation
where he can harm anyone or any dog, and people who have dogs that were
historically bred for fighting have to be very careful even if their dog
hasn't shown any aggression. There are a great number of incidents were
a supposedly perfectly behaved pit bull, akita, mastiff... went berserk
and hurt or killed something. I'm not saying that people shouldn't own
these breeds, but if they do they should very pro-active dog owners with
significant experience in dog training, and they should be responsible
for what their dog does. In my experience, this is often not the case.

-Peter De Smidt

Greetings and Salutations....

On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:18:37 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

*snip*

I am generally of a live and let live philosophy on most issues, but to me
there is no reason a sane individual would own one of these dogs,
particularly in an urban environment. They are anti-social assault weapons,
and no other animal, child, or human is ultimately safe around one, except
for the owner.

I have to take some issue with this, as it is exactly like
saying all African-Americans are shiftless, promiscuous drug dealers.
Here is a fairly good look at the breed and its characteristics
http://www.rescueeverydog.org/pitbull_breed.html
The bottom line is that with pit bulls, as well as every other
breed of dog, the behavior of the dog is directly related to the
training given it by the owner. If the owner trains it to promote
its aggressive tendencies, then, it will be aggressive. If it is
trained to attack...it will attack. On the other hand, if the owner
has treated the dog with love and promoted its friendlier side, then
it will not endanger any human.
Now...as the above points out, they WERE bred for fighting,
whichs means that they WILL have a tendency (hard to overcome) to
fight with other DOGS. However, again, with proper training, it
is possible to overcome this, so the pit bull will not automatically
attack on sight...but...it does require training.
Of course, I do realise that dogs, being living creatures,
come in QUITE a range of personalities, so, I am sure there are some
Pit Bulls that are so filled with aggression that they cannot be
brought to heel without constant supervision. In that case, either
the owner has to understand and take on that responsibility, or have
the dog put down.

To let one run loose in an urban situation, even accidentally, is akin to
assault with a deadly weapon and should be treated as such.

I agree with the first part of this sentence, although I
strongly disagree with the last part. Actually, that is one reason
I have not owned a dog for the past 20 years. The area just got too
grown up to allow the creatures the sort of life that they need.
While there are a number of breeds that do well in "indoor only"
settings, the larger dogs that I preferred really need to be able
to roam. The more folks packed into the area, the more chance
that the dog will run across someone whose irrational fear will
cause problems...so...no dogs.
THe bottom line for me is that it is a bad thing to
label ANY breed of dog as "evil". The behavior of ANY dog
completely depends on the training and level of attention
that the owner gives to the dog.
Regards
Dave Mundt

Dave Mundt wrote:

snip
Now...as the above points out, they [pit bulls] WERE bred for fighting,
whichs means that they WILL have a tendency (hard to overcome) to
fight with other DOGS. However, again, with proper training, it
is possible to overcome this, so the pit bull will not automatically
attack on sight...but...it does require training.
snip

That's quite scary, though, isn't it? Clearly most owners are not
knowledgeable or equipped to do such training, and it's a leap of faith
that it's possible to overcome this inborn tendency. You might make it
less likely that your dog will attack others, but will you totally
remove that urge? I doubt it.

Consider Siegfried and Roy. Clearly they trained and socialized their
animals much, much more than the average dog owner, but nonetheless
tragedy struck. Training can mitigate inborn tendencies, but that's not
the same thing as removing them.


The behavior of ANY dog
completely depends on the training and level of attention
that the owner gives to the dog.

That's not true, the behavior of any dog completely depends on it's
training, and on it's genetic pre-dispositions and the environment.
Otherwise you could train a newfoundland to be as good a sheep herder as
your average border collie.

-Peter De Smidt

"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
Greetings and Salutations....

On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:18:37 -0500, "Swingman"wrote:

*snip*

I am generally of a live and let live philosophy on most issues, but to
me
there is no reason a sane individual would own one of these dogs,
particularly in an urban environment. They are anti-social assault
weapons,
and no other animal, child, or human is ultimately safe around one,
except
for the owner.

I have to take some issue with this, as it is exactly like
saying all African-Americans are shiftless, promiscuous drug dealers.

Tsk tsk ... next we're going to advocate civil rights to animals?

You certainly CAN make that generalization about ANY animal that was
_specifically_ bred to attack and kill ... just as you can safely say that
any dog running loose in an urban setting is NOT receiving the proper
attention. Put the two together, particularly with an American Pit Bull, and
you're asking for trouble.

AAMOF, if you have a dog you love, _you_ damn well better make that
generalization the next time you see a pit bull running loose close by.

Here is a fairly good look at the breed and its characteristics

I grew up with one. I've no doubt there are many that are lovable creatures
in the breed (we owned a Staffordshire Terrier - given to my Dad as a gift
by the CEO of Chevron Oil Company of those days - which was basically the
same breed as American Pit Bull at the time, and while well trained and
lovable to humans and children, would attack and kill another dog in a
heartbeat, and did on more than occasion).

THe bottom line for me is that it is a bad thing to
label ANY breed of dog as "evil". The behavior of ANY dog
completely depends on the training and level of attention
that the owner gives to the dog.

Sounds good ... but I still have the scars on my hand to prove, inarguably,
that this is not correct. The pit bull that got me years later, and the
little boy, was a well trained family pet that was following his inherent
instinct to attack and kill the other dog.

I've been around dogs all my life and have never seen another domestic
animal with the instincts of the pit bull.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Jay Knepper" wrote in message

To make the bald statement that "...those pit-bulls are nasty
creatures..."
is wrong.

See my other post on the subject.

It is smart to be cautious about any dog. Large, athletic breeds
especially
can do damage if they have been trained to do so.

Not true at all of the pit bull .. inarguably, the pit bull does not have to
be "trained to do so" ... it was bred _specifically_ "to do so".

Too the contrary, as general rule thay have to be trained NOT to do so ... a
circumstance I don't necessarily relish with the number of idiots running
loose in this culture, and certainly not one I would rely upon to safeguard
my dogs, or even the children in the neighborhood, particularly if they are
walking a dog.

I like dogs, have been around them all my life, and have owned many breeds
.... I've yet to see a dog with the propensity, and the tools/physique
necessary, to do "damage" to another dog, or human if they get in the way.

You can argue all you want, and I would own another pit bull ... but not in
an urban setting, and damn sure not without kicking my umbrella policy up a
few more million.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"Peter De Smidt" wrote in message Dave Mundt wrote:

snip
Now...as the above points out, they [pit bulls] WERE bred for fighting,
whichs means that they WILL have a tendency (hard to overcome) to
fight with other DOGS. However, again, with proper training, it
is possible to overcome this, so the pit bull will not automatically
attack on sight...but...it does require training.
snip

That's quite scary, though, isn't it? Clearly most owners are not
knowledgeable or equipped to do such training, and it's a leap of faith
that it's possible to overcome this inborn tendency. You might make it
less likely that your dog will attack others, but will you totally
remove that urge? I doubt it.

Precisely!

Consider Siegfried and Roy. Clearly they trained and socialized their
animals much, much more than the average dog owner, but nonetheless
tragedy struck. Training can mitigate inborn tendencies, but that's not
the same thing as removing them.


The behavior of ANY dog
completely depends on the training and level of attention
that the owner gives to the dog.

That's not true, the behavior of any dog completely depends on it's
training, and on it's genetic pre-dispositions and the environment.
Otherwise you could train a newfoundland to be as good a sheep herder as
your average border collie.

Absolutely correct ... and particularly with a breed like the pit bull, it's
damn scary that anyone can actually think otherwise.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Peter De Smidt responds:

. You might make it
less likely that your dog will attack others, but will you totally
remove that urge? I doubt it.

Consider Siegfried and Roy. Clearly they trained and socialized their
animals much, much more than the average dog owner, but nonetheless
tragedy struck. Training can mitigate inborn tendencies, but that's not
the same thing as removing them.

Sorry. The analogy doesn't work. Tigers are NOT dogs and no attempt has ever
been made to domesticate them.

Generally, though I tend to agree with your conclusions. Some dog breeds are
more likely to be good shepherds, or fighters, than others, along with all the
characteristics that go with each job.

Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Swingman responds:

You certainly CAN make that generalization about ANY animal that was
_specifically_ bred to attack and kill ... just as you can safely say that
any dog running loose in an urban setting is NOT receiving the proper
attention. Put the two together, particularly with an American Pit Bull, and
you're asking for trouble.

AAMOF, if you have a dog you love, _you_ damn well better make that
generalization the next time you see a pit bull running loose close by.

I agree. Our little mutt--15 pounds of wiggle and wag, basically--was in the
yard last week, and I got her in the house in a hurry when two pit bulls ambled
down the drive. I'd never seen them before, but shut the doors and drove to
town to borrow a shotgun.

I'm not about to give two dogs that size a chance to show much more than a
frigging HINT of agressive behavior on my property. There is no leash law in
this county, something I consider a bad mistake as population grows and
wandering canines increase in number. Sooner or later, something serious is
going to happen to a child, rather than another dog. Then action will be taken,
too late for the child.

That won't happen on my two acres.

Charlie Self
"Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Peter De Smidt responds:


You might make it
less likely that your dog will attack others, but will you totally
remove that urge? I doubt it.

Consider Siegfried and Roy. Clearly they trained and socialized their
animals much, much more than the average dog owner, but nonetheless
tragedy struck. Training can mitigate inborn tendencies, but that's not
the same thing as removing them.



Charlie Self wrote:

Sorry. The analogy doesn't work. Tigers are NOT dogs and no attempt has ever
been made to domesticate them.

snip

I never claimed that tigers are dogs. My point was that socialization
and training do not remove inborn tendencies, and my example
demonstrates that. Behavioral training and socialization of tigers,
dogs, hawks (which I've done), killer whales,..., are all very similar,
and use well established behavioral conditioning, even though the
specific inborn tendencies are quite different.

But in any case we seem to agree on the overall point.

-Peter De Smidt

The bottom line is that with pit bulls, as well as every other
breed of dog, the behavior of the dog is directly related to the
training given it by the owner. If the owner trains it to promote
its aggressive tendencies, then, it will be aggressive. If it is
trained to attack...it will attack. On the other hand, if the owner
has treated the dog with love and promoted its friendlier side, then
it will not endanger any human.

Ideally, one would like to think so. Unfortunately a large percentage of
reported pit bull attacks were from seemingly gentle family pets that just
snapped and went wild.

and now we have a 14 month old Leonberger name Murphy.

Leon must be proud to have a breed named after him.

mp wrote:

Ideally, one would like to think so. Unfortunately a large percentage of
reported pit bull attacks were from seemingly gentle family pets that just
snapped and went wild.

I knew an acquaintance that had three pit bulls. He used to fight them every
weekend. When anyone asked they were just "family pets" too.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Your aquaintance is a scum bag. The breed was originally developed to be
agressive to animals, but very people-friendly. In my research I read of how
owners of fighting dogs would regularly stay in the ring with their dogs,
get down beside them, and urge them on as they ripped each other apart.

So it is possible that his dogs were not a threat to you or to his family.
However he was participating in a criminal activity, and probably not
someone you would like to sit down and have a beer with.

Jay

"Nova" wrote in message
...
mp wrote:

Ideally, one would like to think so. Unfortunately a large percentage of
reported pit bull attacks were from seemingly gentle family pets that
just
snapped and went wild.

I knew an acquaintance that had three pit bulls. He used to fight them
every
weekend. When anyone asked they were just "family pets" too.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Your "friend" ought to have HIS ass whipped.

"Nova" wrote in message
...
mp wrote:

Ideally, one would like to think so. Unfortunately a large percentage of
reported pit bull attacks were from seemingly gentle family pets that
just
snapped and went wild.

I knew an acquaintance that had three pit bulls. He used to fight them
every
weekend. When anyone asked they were just "family pets" too.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:51:22 -0500, Unisaw A100
wrote:

We look forward to tomorrow's installment.

UA100


Uh Oh - this is starting to turn into a Puppy Wizzard thread.


Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Searcher wrote:

A dog here almost became filled with lead today, I was out in my yard with
my 3 year old son, doing a little yard work. Luckily, my siter in law was
close to my son when from around the garage came a pit bull at full charge.
After my siter in law grabbed up my son the dog took off after another
couple walking thier dog, it was then that I retrieved my .44 with every
intention of dispatching that animal. The dog was still roaming as I was
cleaning up our garden tools and I was ready. I saw the dog take off after
another person walking his dog. I kept cleaning up and went in. I have not
seen that dog before or again. But if that dog had come near my yard it
would have been hauled off in a bag!

Searcher1

Your lucky to have that option, in the UK they effectively banned "pit
bulls" and "handguns", now there are lots of both illegally owned and
misused. As far as I'm concerned anything that looks like a p/b, p/b
cross, staffie or similar is *probably* now owned for image "I'm 'ard,
f*ck you", not for the love of the breed its self, though as always
there are a few exceptions, but the generalisation might just keep you
safe, never trust one, even if its not being aggressive YET.

Niel, former frontline ambulance tech.
BTW the lab is the most common biter in the uk, except a lab usually
only nips when really pushed by stupid kids 'cause they think they're
soft...

Peter De Smidt pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote in news:415efe92$1_3
@newspeer2.tds.net:


That's quite scary, though, isn't it? Clearly most owners are not
knowledgeable or equipped to do such training, and it's a leap of faith
that it's possible to overcome this inborn tendency. You might make it
less likely that your dog will attack others, but will you totally
remove that urge? I doubt it.

ANY dog will attack any other, or anything else. They are predators.
Predators are aggressive. The only differences among dogs is size and
ability to do damage.

"mp" wrote in :

The bottom line is that with pit bulls, as well as every other
breed of dog, the behavior of the dog is directly related to the
training given it by the owner. If the owner trains it to promote
its aggressive tendencies, then, it will be aggressive. If it is
trained to attack...it will attack. On the other hand, if the owner
has treated the dog with love and promoted its friendlier side, then
it will not endanger any human.

Ideally, one would like to think so. Unfortunately a large percentage
of reported pit bull attacks were from seemingly gentle family pets
that just snapped and went wild.




For the most part, seemingly gentle family pets of all breeds are
untrained. ALL dogs should be trained. ALL large dogs should be
professionaly trained.